Cian Healey Update

by RubyGuby Wed 05 Jun 2013, 3:57 pm

First topic message reminder :

The (not so) Independent

The Lions will decide within the next 48 hours whether to summon a replacement prop for Cian Healy, who suffered suspected ankle ligament damage in today’s 69-17 win over Western Force.

Although an X-ray confirmed the Ireland loose-head did not suffer a break, Warren Gatland is sufficiently concerned to consider a replacement.

England’s Alex Corbisiero, who can play on both sides of the scrum, and Ryan Grant, impressive for Scotland during the Six Nations, will be the front-runners to come in if needed.

thumbsup

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 05 Jun 2013, 10:41 pm

thebluesmancometh wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:If the coaches are justified in picking one of their players - irrespective of whether they've been playing international rugby or not - then what the hell is the point in the British and Irish lions.

Ahem POC, ahem Lydiate, ahem Sexton, ahem Stevens, ahem Grey...

Should I go on, there are literally hundreds of players who weren't playing int rugby that have travelled and been succesfull on the lions, the list above didn't play 6N rugby either!

Lets get one thing straight, there is always a case of form over quality (although I'm not convinced Grants form has been as good as Scots think) but there is also a case of form being temporary...

Grant has been watched assessed analysed and deemed not worthy by the coaching set up, well so far anyway.

Lets not have the facts get in the way, but both Sexton and GrAy did play in the 6Ns. Stevens has retired from International rugby (and is not deserving of selection either), and personally I wouldn't have taken Lydiate (for similar reasons to Corbisero). POC however is a different kettle of fish - and demonstrates his quality at the highest level of the club game before selection

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 05 Jun 2013, 10:43 pm

nathan wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
nathan wrote:
AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
nathan wrote:I think a few people on here need to go and have a lay down for a bit, i will laugh in your faces if Corbs ends up playing and is one of the stars of the tour!

You're welcome to do that (or try), but it still doesn't justify his selection

skype?

Your criteria of what justifies a call up might not be the same as the lion coaches and no offence but they know what they're doing more than you...

Skype it can be. I don't think you need to be an international rugby coach to hold the view that form at the appropriate level and quality are necessary criteria - if you prefer familiarity, that's entirely your call

i said nothing at all about familiarity.

No, I did. And of course you wouldn't be at all biased that Corbisero is English and about to join Saints? No, I'm sure not at all ...

by GLove39 Wed 05 Jun 2013, 10:45 pm

Toadfish wrote:How much rugby had Richie Gray played in the build up to selection?

Well he played against England, Italy & Ireland before getting injured against Wales. So that's already more rugby than someone like Corbs, and rugby of the highest level.
As for club, for the 2 Heineken Cup games this year he started 1 came off the bench for the other.
And played in 3 Aviva premiership games.

by Taffineastbourne Wed 05 Jun 2013, 10:46 pm

madmaccas wrote:3 games all season! 4/6 props are now English, and if Hartley hadn't been banned the front row would be 6/9 English. This is jobs for the boys. There is no possible justification for picking a player who has played 3 ruddy games all season. Form and fitness my bum. Gatland is a liar.

The only players he should have considered are Grant and James.

It's really really difficult to support the Lions when it's apparent the coaches only want to pick their national favourites, despite being injured or not playing all season. Geech was impartial, he never gave unfair favour to Scots - quite the opposite.

What fans from other nations don't get (because you've never experienced it) is that it's a slap in the face, it says that we're not welcome and shouldn't bother. I'm one of the biggest fans of the Lions but for the first time in my life I'm actually starting to think we should pull out and save our pride. We're not wanted or respected. I doubt Rowntree has even watched Grant play this season, if he had there's no way he would make this ridiculous decision.

Rant over

I must put you straight on Lions history.There was a bloke called Woodward who crammed the Lions full of his old chums despite Wales winning a Grand Slam.You whinge about underrepresentation when you have won nowt for years.Just imagine how you would feel if Scotland had just managed a Grand Slam!

by madmaccas Wed 05 Jun 2013, 10:50 pm

Toadfish wrote:How much rugby had Richie Gray played in the build up to selection?

He played 14 games for Sale and 7 games for Scotland this season. He played half the 6Nations and only missed a month and half of competitive rugby. Hardly comparable.

by **George Carlin** Wed 05 Jun 2013, 10:52 pm

Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

by thebluesmancometh Wed 05 Jun 2013, 10:53 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
thebluesmancometh wrote:
RDW_Scotland wrote:If the coaches are justified in picking one of their players - irrespective of whether they've been playing international rugby or not - then what the hell is the point in the British and Irish lions.

Ahem POC, ahem Lydiate, ahem Sexton, ahem Stevens, ahem Grey...

Should I go on, there are literally hundreds of players who weren't playing int rugby that have travelled and been succesfull on the lions, the list above didn't play 6N rugby either!

Lets get one thing straight, there is always a case of form over quality (although I'm not convinced Grants form has been as good as Scots think) but there is also a case of form being temporary...

Grant has been watched assessed analysed and deemed not worthy by the coaching set up, well so far anyway.
Lets not have the facts get in the way, but both Sexton and GrAy did play in the 6Ns. Stevens has retired from International rugby (and is not deserving of selection either), and personally I wouldn't have taken Lydiate (for similar reasons to Corbisero). POC however is a different kettle of fish - and demonstrates his quality at the highest level of the club game before selection

Ah I see, Corbisiero is one kettle of fish but one of your own is justified, I see now!

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 05 Jun 2013, 10:58 pm

Bluesman, POC is Irish? Headscratch

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:03 pm

George Carlin wrote:Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

Add Ryan Jones to that list too GC. I'm not for being Biased, even before the initial selection I said we only had 5 worthy tourists, 3 are already there and the other 2 were Grant and Brown.

Clearly the Lions coaches don't rate us. Frankly they can go spin on it. If the coaches think Corbisero who has barely played this season is ready for a Lions level intensity tour they will be in for a surprise. I fully expect either Grant or James to get the call before the end of the tour.

by GavinDragon Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:04 pm

George Carlin wrote:Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

Ive seen him play and tear up trees in the loose this season at Rabbo Level, however (and correct me if im wrong) was he also not part of a pack that gave away a number of penalties to the welsh at scrum time in the 6n?

by Margin_Walker Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:05 pm

George Carlin wrote:Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

He started against South Africa and New Zealand November and December respectively.

by GavinDragon Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:09 pm

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

Add Ryan Jones to that list too GC. I'm not for being Biased, even before the initial selection I said we only had 5 worthy tourists, 3 are already there and the other 2 were Grant and Brown.

Clearly the Lions coaches don't rate us. Frankly they can go spin on it. If the coaches think Corbisero who has barely played this season is ready for a Lions level intensity tour they will be in for a surprise. I fully expect either Grant or James to get the call before the end of the tour.

Please dont take this as a WUM or as a swipe, but why should any coach rate them? Yes a number have produced individual performances in a poor team its quite easy to appear a big fish in a small pond...

and again im not wumming this is coming from a welsh fan who had a number of welshmen deemed not worthy of a test spot in 05 despite winning a grandslam..........

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:14 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

Ive seen him play and tear up trees in the loose this season at Rabbo Level, however (and correct me if im wrong) was he also not part of a pack that gave away a number of penalties to the welsh at scrum time in the 6n?

GD, if you're talking about the whistle fest orchestrated by Joubert, then I can't see how it bears much relevance to this? His performance has been widely criticised by the majority of non-partisan rugby fans. In fact, overall for the 6Ns, you'll find that Wales (and England) have the lowest scrum completion rate (30% or so) - obtaining scrum penalties by fair means or foul would seem to be part of a (successful) strategy. And of course this is the Ryan Grant that in the critical Os vs Glasgow game to decide which team would process to the playoffs (so plenty riding on it for both) wAs part of a front five that gave the Os front five containing 4 current Lions the run around. Perhaps you were thinking of another game?

by EST Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:19 pm

GavinDragon wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

Add Ryan Jones to that list too GC. I'm not for being Biased, even before the initial selection I said we only had 5 worthy tourists, 3 are already there and the other 2 were Grant and Brown.

Clearly the Lions coaches don't rate us. Frankly they can go spin on it. If the coaches think Corbisero who has barely played this season is ready for a Lions level intensity tour they will be in for a surprise. I fully expect either Grant or James to get the call before the end of the tour.

Please dont take this as a WUM or as a swipe, but why should any coach rate them? Yes a number have produced individual performances in a poor team its quite easy to appear a big fish in a small pond...

and again im not wumming this is coming from a welsh fan who had a number of welshmen deemed not worthy of a test spot in 05 despite winning a grandslam..........

Scotland have been poor over the last decade, no doubt. That fact alone doesn't stop individuals within the Scottish team now being effective lions standard players. I am not typing this thinking that Grant is the best loosehead in the UK, and that it was an affront to my nation that he was not selected originally. But after Healy, Vunipola and Jenkins you look at who is available, and playing well. For me that group would include Grant, James and Sheridan, I am excluding Corbisiero on the basis of his limited game time. I would have been happy with any of those three players being picked. Instead, we have a situation where form is effectively an irrelevance.

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:21 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

Ive seen him play and tear up trees in the loose this season at Rabbo Level, however (and correct me if im wrong) was he also not part of a pack that gave away a number of penalties to the welsh at scrum time in the 6n?

GD, if you're talking about the whistle fest orchestrated by Joubert, then I can't see how it bears much relevance to this? His performance has been widely criticised by the majority of non-partisan rugby fans. In fact, overall for the 6Ns, you'll find that Wales (and England) have the lowest scrum completion rate (30% or so) - obtaining scrum penalties by fair means or foul would seem to be part of a (successful) strategy. And of course this is the Ryan Grant that in the critical Os vs Glasgow game to decide which team would process to the playoffs (so plenty riding on it for both) wAs part of a front five that gave the Os front five containing 4 current Lions the run around. Perhaps you were thinking of another game?

pay attention posters on 606v2. That is how to get your point across! clap

Part of the problem is there is noone in there to sing Scottish praises. Sure Irvine is tour manager but he has no say in squad selection. This isn't just about Grant for me though. James should be pi55ed off too, he is a player who has performed well for Barf and Wales. Sheridan too should have been before Corbs.

by madmaccas Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:25 pm

EST wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
RuggerRadge2611 wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

Add Ryan Jones to that list too GC. I'm not for being Biased, even before the initial selection I said we only had 5 worthy tourists, 3 are already there and the other 2 were Grant and Brown.

Clearly the Lions coaches don't rate us. Frankly they can go spin on it. If the coaches think Corbisero who has barely played this season is ready for a Lions level intensity tour they will be in for a surprise. I fully expect either Grant or James to get the call before the end of the tour.

Please dont take this as a WUM or as a swipe, but why should any coach rate them? Yes a number have produced individual performances in a poor team its quite easy to appear a big fish in a small pond...

and again im not wumming this is coming from a welsh fan who had a number of welshmen deemed not worthy of a test spot in 05 despite winning a grandslam..........

Scotland have been poor over the last decade, no doubt. That fact alone doesn't stop individuals within the Scottish team now being effective lions standard players. I am not typing this thinking that Grant is the best loosehead in the UK, and that it was an affront to my nation that he was not selected originally. But after Healy, Vunipola and Jenkins you look at who is available, and playing well. For me that group would include Grant, James and Sheridan, I am excluding Corbisiero on the basis of his limited game time. I would have been happy with any of those three players being picked. Instead, we have a situation where form is effectively an irrelevance.

by GavinDragon Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:26 pm

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:
George Carlin wrote:Staggering number of people on this thread have clearly not watched Grant play a single minute this season. Awful, awful decision. Corbs is great when he's got a full season behind him (and I've met him before - he's a very good boy) but he cannot possibly be in any sort of match form and hasn't played an international for a year - any of Grant, James or Sheridan are twenty times more worthy to receive that phone call.

Anyone trying to justify this choice as one based on merit should be ashamed of themselves. I would so much rather the coaching team just came out and said that they are taking Corbs because Rowntree knows him. And I am not confident that Gatland had any real influence in this call.

Another Lydiate over Robshaw/Brown decision, I'm afraid. Absolutely at the coaching team's pleasure whom they choose, but let's not pretend that it's the best current players out there.

Ive seen him play and tear up trees in the loose this season at Rabbo Level, however (and correct me if im wrong) was he also not part of a pack that gave away a number of penalties to the welsh at scrum time in the 6n?

GD, if you're talking about the whistle fest orchestrated by Joubert, then I can't see how it bears much relevance to this? His performance has been widely criticised by the majority of non-partisan rugby fans. In fact, overall for the 6Ns, you'll find that Wales (and England) have the lowest scrum completion rate (30% or so) - obtaining scrum penalties by fair means or foul would seem to be part of a (successful) strategy. And of course this is the Ryan Grant that in the critical Os vs Glasgow game to decide which team would process to the playoffs (so plenty riding on it for both) wAs part of a front five that gave the Os front five containing 4 current Lions the run around. Perhaps you were thinking of another game?

If it doesn't bear relevance then why have independent selections at all? Why not just have a computer analyse the refs and give us the best prop for that particular ref?

Wales may or may not have the lowest completion rate, but who won the most penalties that is a stat I would most like to see..

And no no I remember that game well although my memory was his barnstorming runs in the loose and scoring two tries (? or was that in the game prior)..... my point is he is unlucky and it probably was a tight call but until the scots front five start dismantling teams with their scrum (by fair means or foul) you will have little to feel so unjustified about...unlucky yes but a disgrace etc not so much

by cakeordeath Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:30 pm

I don't remember England's tight five taking any other nations scrum apart

by hugehandoff Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:35 pm

Overall we are in a lucky position as we have several choices at loose head who will all go well against the Aussies. Grant, Corbs, Sheridan, Jenkins, Healy, Vunipola are all good enough to play in a winning scrum. We need to see Jenkins fit and with Vunipola on the bench we will be fine. Harsh on Grant but not disastrous to the Lions. Corbs has played a few games recently, but Grant or Sheridan would have been my choices. Hopefully Healy will recover quickly (and not be banned).

by GavinDragon Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:35 pm

with the exception of the wales game I dont recall the England scrum being taken apart either

by madmaccas Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:38 pm

GavinDragon wrote:with the exception of the wales game I dont recall the England scrum being taken apart either

and with the exception of the Wales game I don't recall the Scotland scrum being taken apart!

by GavinDragon Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:44 pm

Fair point

Bit until Scotland start dominating the 6n like Wales have for the last 2 years and England did at the turn of the century you are going to struggle to get your players into the squad and you will likely lose out on these 50/50's especially when your the coach aint from your country..

by **Notch** Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:44 pm

I think Grant is very hard done by, but I wanted James or Sheridan to get the spot. Grant is pretty similar to Jenkins and Mako whereas those two are pure scrummagers.

by GavinDragon Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:45 pm

i should add as ireland did in 09

by wales606 Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:47 pm

Notch wrote:I think Grant is very hard done by, but I wanted James or Sheridan to get the spot. Grant is pretty similar to Jenkins and Mako whereas those two are pure scrummagers.

I would have brought in James simply because he is so used to playing with Adam and Hibbard - and Adam is pretty likely to be the main THP

James was excellent in the 6Ns and was unlucky to lose his place to Gethin for both Wales and the Lions

by madmaccas Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:52 pm

GavinDragon wrote:Fair point

Bit until Scotland start dominating the 6n like Wales have for the last 2 years and England did at the turn of the century you are going to struggle to get your players into the squad and you will likely lose out on these 50/50's especially when your the coach aint from your country..

Totally fair point and after lots of grumbling, here, there and everywhere about the initial selections my bitter disappointment receded. However this can in no way be described as a 50/50. Him losing out to the 1 prop would be 50/50. Losing out to 7 now is downright fascicle.

Grant is a man that has won countless MOM performances for Glasgow this season, got plaudits a plenty in the 6 Nations and was tipped by almost every coach and pundit to go on tour. How a bloke who has started 3 solitary games (and make no mistake he's not a legend like BOD or POC) can beat him as back up is beyond me. That's not to mention Paul James who has also had a great season. How many England fringe props would he pick ahead of those guys, god only knows?!

by R!skysports Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:55 pm

madmaccas wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:Fair point

Bit until Scotland start dominating the 6n like Wales have for the last 2 years and England did at the turn of the century you are going to struggle to get your players into the squad and you will likely lose out on these 50/50's especially when your the coach aint from your country..

Totally fair point and after lots of grumbling, here, there and everywhere about the initial selections my bitter disappointment receded. However this can in no way be described as a 50/50. Him losing out to the 1 prop would be 50/50. Losing out to 7 now is downright fascicle.

Grant is a man that has won countless MOM performances for Glasgow this season, got plaudits a plenty in the 6 Nations and was tipped by almost every coach and pundit to go on tour. How a bloke who has started 3 solitary games (and make no mistake he's not a legend like BOD or POC) can beat him as back up is beyond me. That's not to mention Paul James who has also had a great season. How many England fringe props would he pick ahead of those guys, god only knows?!

by R!skysports Wed 05 Jun 2013, 11:57 pm

The one good thing is grant can stay with Scotland.

Have to say these sort of things does take the shine off the tour for me.

by GavinDragon Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:03 am

the thrust of my argument has not been that Corbisero is better or has any more right to be included than Grant or James or any other, it was just to point out that when it boils down to collective performances (be it the Scottish team or the scottish pack) have not been up to a level to demand these fifty fifty calls to go in their favour...

is there an element of coach bias going in favour or corbisero? probably (although the lad didnt put a fut wrong in 2012)

could the same be said for dan lydiate? Most definately!

Could the same be said for Tom Croft? Yes!

Could the same be said for POC? Not coach bias but reputation,

the difference between grant and all three of the above - they have all been in grand slam winning teams or in teams with a shout of winning grand slams, and that for grants misfortune is why he has been deemed not worthy

by R!skysports Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:11 am

But gavindragon is that not a fundamental flaw then in the coaching selection.

The lions is supposed to be the best players in their position, regardless of who they play for

If Italy were in the lions would you not take parissa? With your logic he would not have a chance

Which would be wrong

by red_stag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:12 am

Riskysports wrote:But gavindragon is that not a fundamental flaw then in the coaching selection.

The lions is supposed to be the best players in their position, regardless of who they play for

If Italy were in the lions would you not take parissa? With your logic he would not have a chance

Which would be wrong

Wrong! The Lions is the group most likely to beat Australia whatever the criteria.

by R!skysports Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:14 am

red_stag wrote:
Riskysports wrote:But gavindragon is that not a fundamental flaw then in the coaching selection.

The lions is supposed to be the best players in their position, regardless of who they play for

If Italy were in the lions would you not take parissa? With your logic he would not have a chance

Which would be wrong

Wrong! The Lions is the group most likely to beat Australia whatever the criteria.

And that criteria is being a mate laughing

by GavinDragon Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:17 am

Riskysports wrote:But gavindragon is that not a fundamental flaw then in the coaching selection.

The lions is supposed to be the best players in their position, regardless of who they play for

If Italy were in the lions would you not take parissa? With your logic he would not have a chance

Which would be wrong

how do you know who is the best? Is it not subjective? And if you were coach in a team sport would you not be inclined to pick from the most successful team?

by madmaccas Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:18 am

red_stag wrote:
Riskysports wrote:But gavindragon is that not a fundamental flaw then in the coaching selection.

The lions is supposed to be the best players in their position, regardless of who they play for

If Italy were in the lions would you not take parissa? With your logic he would not have a chance

Which would be wrong

Wrong! The Lions is the group most likely to beat Australia whatever the criteria.

Yikes, then the Lions should be full of Scots!

by R!skysports Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:20 am

madmaccas wrote:
red_stag wrote:
Riskysports wrote:But gavindragon is that not a fundamental flaw then in the coaching selection.

The lions is supposed to be the best players in their position, regardless of who they play for

If Italy were in the lions would you not take parissa? With your logic he would not have a chance

Which would be wrong

Wrong! The Lions is the group most likely to beat Australia whatever the criteria.

Yikes, then the Lions should be full of Scots!

That made me laugh

by GavinDragon Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:23 am

I dont give a damn who is in the team as long as we win!

I just dont quite get the scots sense of agrievemet over certain selections, disappointment yes but outrage not so much...

by R!skysports Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:24 am

GavinDragon wrote:
Riskysports wrote:But gavindragon is that not a fundamental flaw then in the coaching selection.

The lions is supposed to be the best players in their position, regardless of who they play for

If Italy were in the lions would you not take parissa? With your logic he would not have a chance

Which would be wrong

how do you know who is the best? Is it not subjective? And if you were coach in a team sport would you not be inclined to pick from the most successful team?

Which has happened with the numbers of welsh rightly ther.

But when a mate who has played 3 games all year is selected over 2 players who have been playing very well all year

I would also point out grant has been in a wining team - Glasgow - easy to ignore league form it seems

by R!skysports Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:26 am

GavinDragon wrote:I dont give a damn who is in the team as long as we win!

I just dont quite get the scots sense of agrievemet over certain selections, disappointment yes but outrage not so much...

It is easy to be magnanimous when lots in the team kiss

by madmaccas Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:30 am

GavinDragon wrote:the thrust of my argument has not been that Corbisero is better or has any more right to be included than Grant or James or any other, it was just to point out that when it boils down to collective performances (be it the Scottish team or the scottish pack) have not been up to a level to demand these fifty fifty calls to go in their favour...

is there an element of coach bias going in favour or corbisero? probably (although the lad didnt put a fut wrong in 2012)

could the same be said for dan lydiate? Most definately!

Could the same be said for Tom Croft? Yes!

Could the same be said for POC? Not coach bias but reputation,

the difference between grant and all three of the above - they have all been in grand slam winning teams or in teams with a shout of winning grand slams, and that for grants misfortune is why he has been deemed not worthy

Take that logic back to the coaches picking for their country and your argument falls apart somewhat. Corbs plays for London Irish and they propped up the Aviva for most of the season. How does he get picked for England? Same for Joe Launchbury, David Wilson, David Paice, Tom Johnson, Matt Kvesic, Billy Vunipola, Kyle Eastmond, Jonathan Joseph etc.

What about Jamie Roberts, Alex Cuthbert and Sam Warburton at 9th placed Cardiff Blues? Or Dan Lydiate and Toby Faletau at 11th placed Dragons?

by GavinDragon Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:31 am

OK by that logic no welsh players should be in the team as no welsh region had been successful

look risky I understand your stance, I agree that scottish players have been unlucky in selection I just dont share your and others sense of uproar about it...

If Adam Jones got injured tomorrow id be the first calling for grant, likewise if a 9 went down id be calling for laidlaw (who i would have had as a utlity anyway),

but just like we welsh cant claim to be 'world class' until we regularly beat the best in the world the scots cant claim to be the best of the british isles until you beat everyone within those isles regularly, and again you cant expect to win these 50/50 selection calls

by red_stag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:32 am

GavinDragon wrote:OK by that logic no welsh players should be in the team as no welsh region had been successful

look risky I understand your stance, I agree that scottish players have been unlucky in selection I just dont share your and others sense of uproar about it...

If Adam Jones got injured tomorrow id be the first calling for grant, likewise if a 9 went down id be calling for laidlaw (who i would have had as a utlity anyway),

but just like we welsh cant claim to be 'world class' until we regularly beat the best in the world the scots cant claim to be the best of the british isles until you beat everyone within those isles regularly, and again you cant expect to win these 50/50 selection calls

Different positions.

by madmaccas Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:33 am

Riskysports wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:I dont give a damn who is in the team as long as we win!

I just dont quite get the scots sense of agrievemet over certain selections, disappointment yes but outrage not so much...

It is easy to be magnanimous when lots in the team

Yep, this is something you've never experienced GavinDragon. We experience it every time. There's crying wolf and then there comes a point it gets ridiculous.

by R!skysports Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:35 am

But this one is not a 50/50 selection - corbs should not be selected

If it had been James selected I would have said shame but fair enough.

by GavinDragon Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:36 am

madmaccas wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:the thrust of my argument has not been that Corbisero is better or has any more right to be included than Grant or James or any other, it was just to point out that when it boils down to collective performances (be it the Scottish team or the scottish pack) have not been up to a level to demand these fifty fifty calls to go in their favour...

is there an element of coach bias going in favour or corbisero? probably (although the lad didnt put a fut wrong in 2012)

could the same be said for dan lydiate? Most definately!

Could the same be said for Tom Croft? Yes!

Could the same be said for POC? Not coach bias but reputation,

the difference between grant and all three of the above - they have all been in grand slam winning teams or in teams with a shout of winning grand slams, and that for grants misfortune is why he has been deemed not worthy

Take that logic back to the coaches picking for their country and your argument falls apart somewhat. Corbs plays for London Irish and they propped up the Aviva for most of the season. How does he get picked for England? Same for Joe Launchbury, David Wilson, David Paice, Tom Johnson, Matt Kvesic, Billy Vunipola, Kyle Eastmond, Jonathan Joseph etc.

What about Jamie Roberts, Alex Cuthbert and Sam Warburton at 9th placed Cardiff Blues? Or Dan Lydiate and Toby Faletau at 11th placed Dragons?

English Premiership - 12 teams to pick from and the top teams may or may not have English qualified players suitable.

Welsh - only 4 regions and the wholse emphasis on the national side at present hence why warburton has only just lost his jersey to tipuric, had it been on regional form warburton would not be captain of lions right now

by madmaccas Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:36 am

GavinDragon wrote:OK by that logic no welsh players should be in the team as no welsh region had been successful

So what you're saying is that there are great individual players in the regions but there are also some so-so players in those teams and as a result those star players shouldn't be judged based on their team's performance?

Hmmm, sound familiar?

by GavinDragon Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:37 am

red_stag wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:OK by that logic no welsh players should be in the team as no welsh region had been successful

look risky I understand your stance, I agree that scottish players have been unlucky in selection I just dont share your and others sense of uproar about it...

If Adam Jones got injured tomorrow id be the first calling for grant, likewise if a 9 went down id be calling for laidlaw (who i would have had as a utlity anyway),

but just like we welsh cant claim to be 'world class' until we regularly beat the best in the world the scots cant claim to be the best of the british isles until you beat everyone within those isles regularly, and again you cant expect to win these 50/50 selection calls

Different positions.

my apologies stag

by red_stag Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:39 am

Riskysports wrote:But this one is not a 50/50 selection - corbs should not be selected

If it had been James selected I would have said shame but fair enough.

In your opinion.

I think Cobisiero, Grant and James are all good options.

Who is to say what the criteria is?

Maybe it is decided that Grant wouldn't have enough time to adapt to Rowantree's scrummaging methods in time to be effective whereas Cobisiero is used to it. Its likely given that he would have only 1-2 games to be match ready for the test games and may be required to feature. All other props have weeks of training already done.

It certainly is not the big outrage you portray it.

by GavinDragon Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:43 am

Riskysports wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:I dont give a damn who is in the team as long as we win!

I just dont quite get the scots sense of agrievemet over certain selections, disappointment yes but outrage not so much...

It is easy to be magnanimous when lots in the team

trust me gents ive been following rugby long enough to have experienced wlesh rugby in the doldrums and our lions numbers have reflected that even in some cases been over and above what we should have had (im thinking 2001 here how robin mcbryde toured ill never know!)

likewise I also have experience lions tours where we have been in welsh opinion hard done by e.g Henson missing the first test desptie being the best inside centre - in a winning 6n team - at the time.

by R!skysports Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:49 am

GavinDragon wrote:
Riskysports wrote:But gavindragon is that not a fundamental flaw then in the coaching selection.

The lions is supposed to be the best players in their position, regardless of who they play for

If Italy were in the lions would you not take parissa? With your logic he would not have a chance

Which would be wrong

how do you know who is the best? Is it not subjective? And if you were coach in a team sport would you not be inclined to pick from the most successful team?

Where did Scotland end up in this years 6 nations...

3rd

Hmmm,mm

by GavinDragon Thu 06 Jun 2013, 12:51 am

madmaccas wrote:
GavinDragon wrote:OK by that logic no welsh players should be in the team as no welsh region had been successful

So what you're saying is that there are great individual players in the regions but there are also some so-so players in those teams and as a result those star players shouldn't be judged based on their team's performance?

Hmmm, sound familiar?

no what I am saying is all players should be judged at test level, their route to test level may differ, but if you perform on the international stage you can be judged suitable for the lions.

Of course as with tradition you may have an uncapped 'bolter' but this role is dwindling...

coach bias does come into it but you need to put your team in a strong position from which to give you the edge on those 50/50 calls

for example im sure if the england/wales game had gone the other way wed be talking in terms of marler/robshaw/launchberry/care over perhaps jenkins, lydiate(or warburton) evans and phillips

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