Mayweather vs Ortiz in September 17th

First topic message reminder :

Thank god for a proper welterweight fight.

None of this Pacquiao vs Norris outta Corrie nonsense.

http://boxrec.com/list_bouts.php?human_id=352&cat=boxer

Thoughts?

Not yet no, one fight doesn't make a man

The Mighty Atom wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:For the record Willards corner retired him

Who do you honestly think has more heart Ortiz or Ali?

OK, I was wrong on that detail, but would you have thought him a coward if he had said "I quit"?

As for Ortiz and Ali, course I'll go for Ali. Once Ortiz has retired he may have changed all our minds, but that we can't second guess. Do you not think that perhaps seeing Ali suffer the fruits of his bravery could quite realistically have influenced Ortiz's decision?

Well he didn't quit though did he

He might prove himself but at the moment he still has that hanging over his head, might have done but Ali would have known about similar cases too

Does that make Ali brave or stupid though?

So surely the same would count for the Maidana fight then?

Ali was both brave and stupid, it's not a case of one or the other

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:OK, here's one for consideration: Jess Willard quit against Jack Depmsey. Was he a coward? Did he lack heart? It's considered one of the gutsiest performances in a boxing ring, but didn't go past four rounds. He lost several teeth, and suffered multiple broken bones, if the stories are to be believed. Should he have continued? Was he being cowardly?

That is fair enough, but to quit to protect your looks is not brave.

Context would be nice.

In what respect... Ortiz was winning the fight and quit to protect his looks. He was in no danger what so ever.

And how do you know he was in no danger? He has said that he was totally gassed due to weight loss. Yet you choose that he wants to protect his looks to refer to him as a coward.

I have never called him a coward...

The Mighty Atom wrote:Ali was both brave and stupid, it's not a case of one or the other

There was nothing brave about his last few fights. Stubborn, maybe.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

Tell that to boxers boxers who have paid the ultimate prize.

Why not make it a fight to the finish. Dispense with judges. Last man standing and all that. Only the bravest will survive.

They were fighters that's what they did, it's boxing, if you wish to be naive enough to believe otherwise go ahead but don't think those who suffered as a consequence of seeking their goals are going to think to favourably of those who quit.

Its life and death/health. Many of those who suffered as a consequence of their bravery cant even think anymore because of their bravery. But hey, that's boxing. Cast them aside when they pass their sell by date and thank thrm for their bravery when their sucking up their dinner thru a straw.

But lets praise those who haven't got the heart for a fight instead, nice logic

If you step into the ring you automatically prove that you have the heart for a fight. Only brave people step into the squared circle. To call them heartless because they are not willing to risk their life/health/career is utterly disrespectful.

I dont buy that to be honest Azania. You dont have to be brave to be a boxer, that label has to be earned.

A boxer only boxes because he wants to. They do not risk their life for us, they make an informed decision about the recompense they are offered for a fight. Boxing is a much safer sport these days.

I beg to differ. Step into the ring against someone who wants to knock you out shows tremendous character and bravery. Its not just fatalities they worry about, its later in life health issues. Boxing is much safer today mainly because of Mike Watson. Without him, spencer oliver would be dead, Goult, and that featherweight champ from Newcastle or sunderland (forget his name).

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:OK, here's one for consideration: Jess Willard quit against Jack Depmsey. Was he a coward? Did he lack heart? It's considered one of the gutsiest performances in a boxing ring, but didn't go past four rounds. He lost several teeth, and suffered multiple broken bones, if the stories are to be believed. Should he have continued? Was he being cowardly?

That is fair enough, but to quit to protect your looks is not brave.

Context would be nice.

In what respect... Ortiz was winning the fight and quit to protect his looks. He was in no danger what so ever.

And how do you know he was in no danger? He has said that he was totally gassed due to weight loss. Yet you choose that he wants to protect his looks to refer to him as a coward.

I have never called him a coward...

Heartless, coward, there's minimal difference.

The Paul Ingle incident was the real turn around in boxing safety

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:That is boxing unfortunately and having the heart to carry on when things aren't going your way is vital

Tell that to boxers boxers who have paid the ultimate prize.

Why not make it a fight to the finish. Dispense with judges. Last man standing and all that. Only the bravest will survive.

They were fighters that's what they did, it's boxing, if you wish to be naive enough to believe otherwise go ahead but don't think those who suffered as a consequence of seeking their goals are going to think to favourably of those who quit.

Its life and death/health. Many of those who suffered as a consequence of their bravery cant even think anymore because of their bravery. But hey, that's boxing. Cast them aside when they pass their sell by date and thank thrm for their bravery when their sucking up their dinner thru a straw.

But lets praise those who haven't got the heart for a fight instead, nice logic

If you step into the ring you automatically prove that you have the heart for a fight. Only brave people step into the squared circle. To call them heartless because they are not willing to risk their life/health/career is utterly disrespectful.

I dont buy that to be honest Azania. You dont have to be brave to be a boxer, that label has to be earned.

A boxer only boxes because he wants to. They do not risk their life for us, they make an informed decision about the recompense they are offered for a fight. Boxing is a much safer sport these days.

I beg to differ. Step into the ring against someone who wants to knock you out shows tremendous character and bravery. Its not just fatalities they worry about, its later in life health issues. Boxing is much safer today mainly because of Mike Watson. Without him, spencer oliver would be dead, Goult, and that featherweight champ from Newcastle or sunderland (forget his name).

Paul Ingle he's from Blackpool or another seaside town.

To be honest I think Ortiz did quit prematurely, but it's him who's at risk in there, so it's his call for the most part. I think it's something of a learning process too though. He maybe realised now that he shouldn't have quit, but in fairness to him I would personally rather see a boxer quit too soon than too late, and the same goes for referee decisions.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not yet no, one fight doesn't make a man

Good grief. So many cliches.

The Mighty Atom wrote:The Paul Ingle incident was the real turn around in boxing safety

No. It was the Watson/Eubank fight. Without the safety measures after the injury suffered by Watson, Ingle would be in worse condition now (if he lived). Interviews were no longer allowed in the ring, oxygen became mandatory at all fights, doctors and paramedics also became mandatory with respiratory equipment.

If those were around when Michael had his fight, he would be in the same condition as Spencer Oliver.

That's in this country, after Paul Ingle it brought in worldwide changes

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not yet no, one fight doesn't make a man

Good grief. So many cliches.

I believe that according to Eubank "it'th ver cloveth vat make ver man".

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not yet no, one fight doesn't make a man

You say that but are using the example of one fight to say Ortiz lacks heart.

I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

You lost your looks a while ago then?

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

You keep on banging on about his looks yet forgetting that he also said he had gassed and had nothing left to offer. The coment about his looks was a throwaway comment to emphasise that he couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself let alone throw punches.

prettyboykev wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not yet no, one fight doesn't make a man

You say that but are using the example of one fight to say Ortiz lacks heart.

Because he quit the first time things got tough, he has to redeem that and one fight doesn't prove otherwise as of yet

BALTIMORA wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not yet no, one fight doesn't make a man

Good grief. So many cliches.

I believe that according to Eubank "it'th ver cloveth vat make ver man".

prettyboykev wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

You lost your looks a while ago then?

Na, i'm still soooooper handsome...

The Mighty Atom wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not yet no, one fight doesn't make a man

You say that but are using the example of one fight to say Ortiz lacks heart.

Because he quit the first time things got tough, he has to redeem that and one fight doesn't prove otherwise as of yet

Think it does though because he was down against Berto and he got back up. He was quite young at the time of the Maidana fight as well. Think he was 22.

In my opinion it so far proves nothing

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

You keep on banging on about his looks yet forgetting that he also said he had gassed and had nothing left to offer. The coment about his looks was a throwaway comment to emphasise that he couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself let alone throw punches.

Fair enough, he was tired and had nothing to offer. Many fighters each week will find themselves in this position and the tough ones will find a way to carry on and see the fighter out.... It's called fighters pride.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

You keep on banging on about his looks yet forgetting that he also said he had gassed and had nothing left to offer. The coment about his looks was a throwaway comment to emphasise that he couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself let alone throw punches.

Fair enough, he was tired and had nothing to offer. Many fighters each week will find themselves in this position and the tough ones will find a way to carry on and see the fighter out.... It's called fighters pride.

'Fighters pride' has crippled many a man.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

You keep on banging on about his looks yet forgetting that he also said he had gassed and had nothing left to offer. The coment about his looks was a throwaway comment to emphasise that he couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself let alone throw punches.

Fair enough, he was tired and had nothing to offer. Many fighters each week will find themselves in this position and the tough ones will find a way to carry on and see the fighter out.... It's called fighters pride.

It could also be called more guts than brains.

BALTIMORA wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

You keep on banging on about his looks yet forgetting that he also said he had gassed and had nothing left to offer. The coment about his looks was a throwaway comment to emphasise that he couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself let alone throw punches.

Fair enough, he was tired and had nothing to offer. Many fighters each week will find themselves in this position and the tough ones will find a way to carry on and see the fighter out.... It's called fighters pride.

'Fighters pride' has crippled many a man.

Not really... Shane has not taken too much punishment over his career yet is slurring his words. Each person is different and even a quitter like Ortiz could suffer ill health in later life due to boxing.

At the end of the day boxers are fully aware of the risks. If they are not up for the fight they shouldn't bother, no shame in that.

The Mighty Atom wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not yet no, one fight doesn't make a man

You say that but are using the example of one fight to say Ortiz lacks heart.

Because he quit the first time things got tough, he has to redeem that and one fight doesn't prove otherwise as of yet

So one fight proves you are a quitter. But in another fight where he showed bravery it means little.

The Mighty Atom wrote:In my opinion it so far proves nothing

Mate I honestly find this a huge contradiction you are slating him for one instance. Their is one instance of him showing heart and getting up off the floor to win they seem to cancel each other out but not for you I don't get it.

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not yet no, one fight doesn't make a man

You say that but are using the example of one fight to say Ortiz lacks heart.

Because he quit the first time things got tough, he has to redeem that and one fight doesn't prove otherwise as of yet

So one fight proves you are a quitter. But in another fight where he showed bravery it means little.

It was a good win, he needed to dig deep and did so. I think the Maidana fight was a wake up call and dont buy all this rubbish about him gassing. He was to used to having things go his way and didnt like it when it got tough.

The shame of being labelled a quitter has probably changed him.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

You keep on banging on about his looks yet forgetting that he also said he had gassed and had nothing left to offer. The coment about his looks was a throwaway comment to emphasise that he couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself let alone throw punches.

Fair enough, he was tired and had nothing to offer. Many fighters each week will find themselves in this position and the tough ones will find a way to carry on and see the fighter out.... It's called fighters pride.

He could have taken the easy option and taken a dive. "Quitting! and knowing the flak you will get from some quarters is a brave step to take. He proved he was correct and came back to win the title. Cudos to him.

No they don't cancel eachother out, I have never called Ortiz a quitter, I said he quit which I don't think a boxer should do

Duran quit and didn't save his reputation through one fight it took time

I see what you mean but the guy was young and probably had been in to soft in his career where he had never experienced being up against it in a fight to often.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:I've actually got no issue with Ortiz quitting, it's his choice at the end of the day and if he deems his looks are that important then he can go for it...

I've been in similar positions (albeit against local boxers) when I have been getting seven shades of Poopie punched out of me yet my pride would not let me quit.

Amir Khan, as much as I hate the disgusting little toad, showed a lot of heart againt Maidana and didnt quit like Ortiz. Could Khan have done lasting damage? Possibly... His pride kept him in there.

You keep on banging on about his looks yet forgetting that he also said he had gassed and had nothing left to offer. The coment about his looks was a throwaway comment to emphasise that he couldn't even lift his arms to defend himself let alone throw punches.

Fair enough, he was tired and had nothing to offer. Many fighters each week will find themselves in this position and the tough ones will find a way to carry on and see the fighter out.... It's called fighters pride.

'Fighters pride' has crippled many a man.

Not really... Shane has not taken too much punishment over his career yet is slurring his words. Each person is different and even a quitter like Ortiz could suffer ill health in later life due to boxing.

At the end of the day boxers are fully aware of the risks. If they are not up for the fight they shouldn't bother, no shame in that.

The issue is that he could not defend himself. No point in going out on his shield to make sadists happy. Also its his short term career they should also worry about. Look at Lacy for example. A world beater one moment. Got shellacked and then gets beaten by journeymen. He should have been pulled out earlier to save his career first and foremost.

Ortiz used his brains to pull himself out of a no win situation. You aint the one taking the licks from Maidana. He was.

prettyboykev wrote:I see what you mean but the guy was young and probably had been in to soft in his career where he had never experienced being up against it in a fight to often.

I give my favourite fighter of all time the same stick so i'm not exactly going to be lenient on anyone else am I

The Mighty Atom wrote:No they don't cancel eachother out, I have never called Ortiz a quitter, I said he quit which I don't think a boxer should do

Duran quit and didn't save his reputation through one fight it took time

You more or less called him a quitter. The fact is Ortiz has had over 30 fights. That is a sign of bravery. Unless you have stepped into the ring, you do not know what it takes. No matter how many granular black and white videos, how many boxing books you read, it takes more than grapefruits to step into the ring. Personally for me, I find it totally disrespectful and frankly insultng to refer to anyone who steps into the ring as a quitter (unless they take a dive).

The Mighty Atom wrote:

prettyboykev wrote:I see what you mean but the guy was young and probably had been in to soft in his career where he had never experienced being up against it in a fight to often.

I give my favourite fighter of all time the same stick so i'm not exactly going to be lenient on anyone else am I

Fair enough mate I'm a bit more understanding and forgiving than you then.

And I will respectfully have my own opinion on this

My hands would be a clear sign to anyone that I have in fact boxed quite a bit in my lifetime

Azania,

I guess we look for different things in fighters. I admire fighters who are tough enough to dig deep when they need to, Ortiz has demonstrated that he sometimes have it in him and quits.

Being a boxer does not make you brave, they are trained professionals in a controlled environment.

The Mighty Atom wrote:And I will respectfully have my own opinion on this

My hands would be a clear sign to anyone that I have in fact boxed quite a bit in my lifetime

Then you should know that it takes some grapefruits just to step into the ring.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Azania,

I guess we look for different things in fighters. I admire fighters who are tough enough to dig deep when they need to, Ortiz has demonstrated that he sometimes have it in him and quits.

Being a boxer does not make you brave, they are trained professionals in a controlled environment.

I admore fighters who come thru a gut check win or lose. I also admire fighters who know when their time's up and doesn't want to risk further injuries to themselves. When you are dehydrated the risks are huge.

Not by just stepping inside the ring no, it's your actions once your inside that matter

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Azania,

I guess we look for different things in fighters. I admire fighters who are tough enough to dig deep when they need to, Ortiz has demonstrated that he sometimes have it in him and quits.

Being a boxer does not make you brave, they are trained professionals in a controlled environment.

I admore fighters who come thru a gut check win or lose. I also admire fighters who know when their time's up and doesn't want to risk further injuries to themselves. When you are dehydrated the risks are huge.

Maybe if they were on the end of a brutal beating, not because it was getting a bit hard.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not by just stepping inside the ring no, it's your actions once your inside that matter

I beg to differ again. Obviously your actions count. But referring to a boxer as a quitter after going 10 rounds is wrong. You can claim he could have been braver which I wouldn't oppose too much.

I would say that Johnny Nelson could have been braver in his pacifist fight with Warring and DeLeon but not cowardly. I remember a fight with Wayne Rigby and some bloke with pineapple locks (forget his name) in which they fought a humdinger and then Rigby quit. In fact his opponent asked him to quit and he did.

Is he a quitter? Not in my eyes he isn't. I'll try and find the fight and post it.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Azania,

I guess we look for different things in fighters. I admire fighters who are tough enough to dig deep when they need to, Ortiz has demonstrated that he sometimes have it in him and quits.

Being a boxer does not make you brave, they are trained professionals in a controlled environment.

I admore fighters who come thru a gut check win or lose. I also admire fighters who know when their time's up and doesn't want to risk further injuries to themselves. When you are dehydrated the risks are huge.

Maybe if they were on the end of a brutal beating, not because it was getting a bit hard.

The man had nothing left to give. He was knackered.

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Azania,

I guess we look for different things in fighters. I admire fighters who are tough enough to dig deep when they need to, Ortiz has demonstrated that he sometimes have it in him and quits.

Being a boxer does not make you brave, they are trained professionals in a controlled environment.

I admore fighters who come thru a gut check win or lose. I also admire fighters who know when their time's up and doesn't want to risk further injuries to themselves. When you are dehydrated the risks are huge.

Maybe if they were on the end of a brutal beating, not because it was getting a bit hard.

The man had nothing left to give. He was knackered.

So was Amir Khan in the last few rounds, he found a way to hang in their in and win.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Azania,

I guess we look for different things in fighters. I admire fighters who are tough enough to dig deep when they need to, Ortiz has demonstrated that he sometimes have it in him and quits.

Being a boxer does not make you brave, they are trained professionals in a controlled environment.

I admore fighters who come thru a gut check win or lose. I also admire fighters who know when their time's up and doesn't want to risk further injuries to themselves. When you are dehydrated the risks are huge.

Maybe if they were on the end of a brutal beating, not because it was getting a bit hard.

The man had nothing left to give. He was knackered.

So was Amir Khan in the last few rounds, he found a way to hang in their in and win.

Obviously he had something left. The Berto fight was much harder for Ortiz in terms of punches thrown and landed. The extra weight helped him in that it increased his stamina.

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Azania,

I guess we look for different things in fighters. I admire fighters who are tough enough to dig deep when they need to, Ortiz has demonstrated that he sometimes have it in him and quits.

Being a boxer does not make you brave, they are trained professionals in a controlled environment.

I admore fighters who come thru a gut check win or lose. I also admire fighters who know when their time's up and doesn't want to risk further injuries to themselves. When you are dehydrated the risks are huge.

Maybe if they were on the end of a brutal beating, not because it was getting a bit hard.

The man had nothing left to give. He was knackered.

So was Amir Khan in the last few rounds, he found a way to hang in their in and win.

Obviously he had something left. The Berto fight was much harder for Ortiz in terms of punches thrown and landed. The extra weight helped him in that it increased his stamina.

Ortiz has plently left, he had shown no real signs of gassing.... He lost his bottle and mugged off paying fans.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

azania wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Azania,

I guess we look for different things in fighters. I admire fighters who are tough enough to dig deep when they need to, Ortiz has demonstrated that he sometimes have it in him and quits.

Being a boxer does not make you brave, they are trained professionals in a controlled environment.

I admore fighters who come thru a gut check win or lose. I also admire fighters who know when their time's up and doesn't want to risk further injuries to themselves. When you are dehydrated the risks are huge.

Maybe if they were on the end of a brutal beating, not because it was getting a bit hard.

The man had nothing left to give. He was knackered.

So was Amir Khan in the last few rounds, he found a way to hang in their in and win.

Obviously he had something left. The Berto fight was much harder for Ortiz in terms of punches thrown and landed. The extra weight helped him in that it increased his stamina.

Ortiz has plently left, he had shown no real signs of gassing.... He lost his bottle and mugged off paying fans.

You're just guessing now. You believe he chose to protect his looks but ignore when he also said he was gassed.