Lewis

Was talking to a work mate born in the early 80s today who said Lewis is easily the best HW that his generation has seen. That would include peak Tyson, Bruno, Klits, Found it hard to disagree? Has he been the best of the last 25 years?

I think Tyson at his best was a better fighter. Holyfield and Bowe have a shout also if you're talking who was best on their best night?

Bruno?

I think Tyson knocks him out too..............Tyson was awesome in 86/87 ...Head movement..speed..angles and power...

Bowe beats him pre steward as does Holy...........Afterwards I'd favor Lewis..

To beat Tyson in his prime you'd have to be brilliant and fortunate..

You'd have to survive long enough, and provide enough resistance, to hope Tyson lost heart so you could turn the fight in your favour. However, you'd have to be remarkably brilliant not only to survive but also convince Tyson you were A WINNER (in the hope he'd implode); basically, the stars would have to aligned in a certain way.......... a la douglas!

Back on point in light of the above then either Lewis or Tyson are the best of the last 25 years.

Tyson was box office wasnt he? I would say I agree. But I'm not a fan of claims that "Fighter X was in peak form until he got beat", though there were extra ordinary circumstances with Iron Mike. I think Peak for Peak, he matches up with any HW fighter in history. But it all went downhill remarkably quickly. Two losses to Holyfield, a loss to Lewis, and that damn Douglas loss puts him behind Lewis, Holy and Vitali in terms of overall career. I except theMcBride defeat because in any other sport, Mike would have been told to sit down by his manager, coach, anybody.

Lewis and Holy are one and two, debatable where you place them. Vitali sits comfortably at three (That damn cut by Lewis!!!) Tyson four. And Improvements inclined to say Wladimir is Five.

If he's the best of the last quarter of a century - which he might well be, in fairness - then it definitely isn't 'easily.' There are a few odd vagaries with Lewis' career which makes it a little more difficult to rate him than a lot of other Heavyweights.

He was there or thereabouts for a decade (and more) near the top of the ratings and / or on the title scene, but in all that time it's hard to decide exactly when 'Lennox's time' was. Beating Holyfield (a past his best version, sadly) in late 1999 is probably the best marker, as it told us that Lewis was, at that time, definitely the number one Heavyweight in the world.

But the problem is, by that stage, all that was left in the division he was presiding over and was at long last the king of were the charred remains of a washed up Tyson and a series of rookie pros and gatekeepers, such as Grant, Botha, Tua and Rahman.

Even then, Lewis still found a way to surrender his title (for a second time, no less) to a middling fighter in Hasim - and then later on, when a formidable foe and challenger in the shape of Vitali finally did come along, Lewis won alright, but did so in a way that wasn't totally convincing or pleasing. On paper, that signing off win over Vitali should be perhaps Lewis' greatest night. But sadly, there'll always be a feeling in some quarters that he won in spite of himself.

It's strange that we tend to look at Lewis as primarily a nineties fighter, and yet if you look at the other outstanding Heavyweights of the nineties, Lewis either never fought them (Moorer, Bowe, hell even old man Foreman!), struggled against them even in victory (Mercer), or fought them a bit too late (Holyfield) or far too late (Tyson) to make any of us feel sure that he'd have been able to do the business against them in their respective primes.

I think that when you watch Lewis back, there always seems to be a feeling that we only ever saw the very best of him occasionally. I've said it before, but it doesn't sit well with me that someone like Wladimir, for instance, is always accused of 'fighting scared', when in fact this is exactly what Lewis was 'guilty' of doing quite a lot, too; the way he didn't really impose himself on Evander for instance, despite the window being open to do so.

In general, the best chins he faced always managed to go the distance with him; Holyfield, Tucker, Tua, Mercer, Mavrovic etc (and of course Vitali, though incredibly bloodied, was still unbowed), so you have to wonder if he was really amongst the elite in terms of power, as I've seen many describe him as being. He also has the dubious distinction of being basically the only elite Heavyweight in history to have dump a title to journeymen (ok, respectable gatekeeper in McCall's case) two times over as well.

I guess my gripe is that he tends to do very well against other Heavyweight greats when these hypothetical match ups are talked about, but many of his above performances aren't really in line with that. It's not as if he was over the hill for any of them, either, with the possible exception of Vitali.

I used to have Lewis nailed on as the best of the last twenty-odd years or so, and I still think he might just be, but it's a lot closer than I used to think. I'd say he's about level-pegging with Tyson, personally......Maybe the smallest slither ahead.

Chris - I thought your name indicated that you were born in 1988, but you have some serious boxing knowledge. I realised just how vast it was during a thread earlier today, or late last night discussing Louis and Johnson. is that date of birth 1888?

Chris, from the names advanced from the 90's only Douglas would be evens. Moorer was a mug and Lewis wold be far too cautious of Foremans power to allow a Mcall/Rahmin to occur, while mercer even then was a vet.. Lewis's prime was actually in the 90's, unfortunately Manny was not his trainer.

Lewis was a lucky champion. Fought the best when the best were all washed up. Reminds me of Rocky. People forget that Tyson was a shell of the fighter who terrorised boxers.

Lewis did have good timing..........but his wins over Tua, Vitali and Ruddock were decent...

Lewis had the tools to beat any version of Tyson, Holyfield or Bowe. I think that that long powerful jab with the right hand working off of it would leave Tyson flat on the canvas even at his peak. A prime Holy and Bowe would give Lewis more trouble in my opinion, but he still has to much for them. Great skills, power, quick feet and hands, boxing brain and immense size puts him among the very best in the divisions history.

He had the tools to beat Briggs, Bruno, Rahman, Mercer, Mccall and anyone else that troubled him...........greatly!!

Mate best not to just look at the + but to look at the - as well when analysing..

Tyson was to quick in his prime........Plenty of big heavies like Holmes with GREAT jabs were outclassed.

hogey wrote:Lewis had the tools to beat any version of Tyson, Holyfield or Bowe. I think that that long powerful jab with the right hand working off of it would leave Tyson flat on the canvas even at his peak. A prime Holy and Bowe would give Lewis more trouble in my opinion, but he still has to much for them. Great skills, power, quick feet and hands, boxing brain and immense size puts him among the very best in the divisions history.

Of course Lewis had the tools to beat Tyson but Tyson had the speed power and elusiveness to Knock him the F£$k out.

Lewis was never outclassed by anyone though, his 2 defeats were due to being hit with great shots and he switched on properly in the rematches and won easily. The Holmes that fought Tyson was nothing like the young man of the previous years he was well past his best for the first Spinks fight let alone 3 years later when a fleshy 38 year old version shared a ring with Tyson, even Tyson said Father time caught up with Holmes and he knew it wasn't the real Holmes in the ring with him. Its too easy to watch Tyson slapping around a bunch of tired old heavies and over rate him, but the likes of Mitch Green using a good jab and James Tillis showed that Tyson was beatable they were just not good enough to do it themselves. I just dont see a little man like Tyson getting past that jab or having the chin to absorb a Lewis right hand. Still all about opinions.

TheMackemMawler wrote:

hogey wrote:Lewis had the tools to beat any version of Tyson, Holyfield or Bowe. I think that that long powerful jab with the right hand working off of it would leave Tyson flat on the canvas even at his peak. A prime Holy and Bowe would give Lewis more trouble in my opinion, but he still has to much for them. Great skills, power, quick feet and hands, boxing brain and immense size puts him among the very best in the divisions history.

Of course Lewis had the tools to beat Tyson but Tyson had the speed power and elusiveness to Knock him the F£$k out.

I just dont see a 5ft.10 heavy being able to get inside that powerful jab and we definitely know that Lewis had the power to in your words Knock Tyson the F£$k out. Lewis had very fast hands to counter that head movement and i think he hit every bit as hard as Mike.

hogey wrote:Lewis was never outclassed by anyone though, his 2 defeats were due to being hit with great shots and he switched on properly in the rematches and won easily. The Holmes that fought Tyson was nothing like the young man of the previous years he was well past his best for the first Spinks fight let alone 3 years later when a fleshy 38 year old version shared a ring with Tyson, even Tyson said Father time caught up with Holmes and he knew it wasn't the real Holmes in the ring with him. Its too easy to watch Tyson slapping around a bunch of tired old heavies and over rate him, but the likes of Mitch Green using a good jab and James Tillis showed that Tyson was beatable they were just not good enough to do it themselves. I just dont see a little man like Tyson getting past that jab or having the chin to absorb a Lewis right hand. Still all about opinions.

In the context of my last post then anything other than your first sentence is blar blar. No one mentioned Tyson outclassing Lewis - rather the inference was if Rahman/Mcall could catch Lewis with a KO punch then a prime Tyson surely would (in the first fight at least).

Counter head movement??? Does that even make sense?

Lewis had a useless jab. No snap to it. Just pushed it out. Let's not forget that he was chinny also. He was a black Wlad. Safety first and boring. He had an ancient Holy all over the shop then bottled it.

I suspect he wasnt the best no. Although he ultimately might have achieved the most in the last 25 years. He basically outlasted all of the guys that could be considered his main rivals, aside from Vitali in which he didnt exactly win in convincing fashion. He hit his prime in the late 90s when the division was on the wane and his main rivals either fading or faded. As such I find it difficult to say with any real authority if he was or wasnt. Certainly wouldnt subscribe to him being easily the best.

azania wrote:Lewis was a lucky champion. Fought the best when the best were all washed up. Reminds me of Rocky. People forget that Tyson was a shell of the fighter who terrorised boxers.

Agrees with this guy/girl for once

I don't think Lewis was ever terrorised by an opponent and certainly not by Tyson and for anyone to say that he hadn't got a good left jab must be blind, one of the best after Liston and Holmes. As Hoagey said if Tillis and Green could keep Tyson at bay for tweve rounds I'm sure Lewis could have at any stage of Tyson's carreer and done enough to win on points or knockout.

I may be completely off-base, but wasnt the Tulis fight a glorified sparring session to make sure Mike could go 10 rounds? Once he realised he wasnt going to have an early night, Tyson seeemed to pace himself. Besides Tillis ranks with guys like Sanders as unfulfilled boxing talents. Angelo Dundee sure saw something in him!! I would hate to sound like I'm making excuses, but Tyson was 21, facing a talented fighter who had his best fight (He had just found out he was milk & egg intolerant, the alternative diet leading to better conditioning), and he came in knowing he would probably lose, so he clinched a lot, put in a few rabbit punches etc. All the fight proved was that 20-year old Tyson was not quite the finished product.

Touched upon Tyson-Tillis the other day actually, raf.

I think you're right to some degree - I'm sure that Jacobs, Cayton and Rooney thought that Tillis would provide a better workout than the eighteen, nineteen (or whatever it was at that point) victims Tyson had easily knocked over beforehand, and probably knew that'd be the case when they selected him as an opponent.

But at the same time, I certainly don't think they'd have expected 'Quick' to give Tyson THAT good a work out, or that tough an examination. Instead of simply taking Tyson the distance, he actually came pretty close to getting a result from the fight. As I said the other day, it was only the third or fourth round (can't quite remember which off the top of my head), in which Tillis had been in control but then got over-confident and sloppy, chasing after Tyson in the final few seconds and getting decked as a result (which cost him a round he'd have otherwise won), which spared Tyson having to settle for a majority decision draw.

Tyson was the better man on the night, just about, but it was without doubt his toughest and most frustrating fight up until that point (and probably remained so until Douglas), and I think there's a fair bit of truth in the idea that Tillis did show that there was a certain style which could always cause Tyson problems later on.

Styles make fights, for sure, and Tillis' next big fight of any note showed that, as Bruno stopped him inside five and turned his face in to a mask of the red stuff!

Tyson was Tillis one last shot at the big time....

Bruno was a payday.......as was Holy..

azania wrote:Lewis had a useless jab. No snap to it. Just pushed it out. Let's not forget that he was chinny also. He was a black Wlad. Safety first and boring. He had an ancient Holy all over the shop then bottled it.

He did have a tendency to push it out but it was lethal when he put force behind it. Try telling Vitali Lewis's jab was useless with no snap.

He was much more exciting then Wlad.

Lewis is easily the best HW of the last 25 years for my money. Let's see here:

1) Dominated and destroyed Holyfield twice.
2) Totally destroyed Tyson - Lewis was older and closer to retirement.
3) Was over the hill in 2003 but still managed to stop one of the K brothers.
4) Bowe chucked his belt in the bin rather than fight him.
5) Had an iron chin.
6) Ali thinks he was the greatest ever.
7) Beat everyone he ever faced.

one of the reasons Lewis didn't catch on in the States was because he stunk a lot............If we a re being honest..

He could be exciting...............But Tucker, Tua, Holy, Weaver, Akinwande,Mccall 2, Mavrovic.......all stunk his fault or not......

Duty281 wrote:Lewis is easily the best HW of the last 25 years for my money. Let's see here:

1) Dominated and destroyed Holyfield twice.
2) Totally destroyed Tyson - Lewis was older and closer to retirement.
3) Was over the hill in 2003 but still managed to stop one of the K brothers.
4) Bowe chucked his belt in the bin rather than fight him.
5) Had an iron chin.
6) Ali thinks he was the greatest ever.
7) Beat everyone he ever faced.

Are you a Tony Blair?? Never seen so much spin..

TRUSSMAN66 wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Lewis is easily the best HW of the last 25 years for my money. Let's see here:

1) Dominated and destroyed Holyfield twice.
2) Totally destroyed Tyson - Lewis was older and closer to retirement.
3) Was over the hill in 2003 but still managed to stop one of the K brothers.
4) Bowe chucked his belt in the bin rather than fight him.
5) Had an iron chin.
6) Ali thinks he was the greatest ever.
7) Beat everyone he ever faced.

Are you a Tony Blair?? Never seen so much spin..

It's the truth lad.

bless you...

Tee-hee...the greatest heavyweight of all time is English!

And did those feet....

Canadian...

But not American! That's the important thing here.

We never felt the need to invade there...They have enough problems...

Jamaican

Anymore for anymore ??

Went to Canada for a basketball camp in high school, and England for a cricket tour... Never coming back!!! Lewis was stuck between a rock and a hard place picking between cold Canada or rainy Britain.

Or ££££ England...Or zilcho Canada.........

kingraf wrote:Went to Canada for a basketball camp in high school, and England for a cricket tour... Never coming back!!! Lewis was stuck between a rock and a hard place picking between cold Canada or rainy Britain.

So he chose Jamaica.

Lewis was overrated and boring to watch. He beat Tyson and Holyfield when they were past it. I dont think he would have beat them when they were at their best.

Easy to forget Holy had two losses to Bowe and one from Moorer.......

Tyson had been beaten twice off Holy..

Interesting that this thread has has thrown up only two candidates when we have had four or possibly five outstanding heavyweights in this time.
Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Wlad Klitchko were all outstanding champions, so choosing a best is dependent on your criteria.
In terms of head to head it may be easy to make a case for your preferred choice in any particular fight, but if you had a league in which they each had to face each other twice, the final positions would be harder to pick with any real certainty. I certainly wouldn't see any of them going through undefeated.
Tyson was the most explosive, but once past the first three rounds the head movement, combinations etc slowed, and as holyfield showed he could lose hope and never came back once behind in a tough fight, something that would be a certainty in this company.
Holyfield was perhaps the least physically gifted, or exceptionally talented, but had the biggest heart, never knew when he was beaten, and in Tyson's case seemed to have his number ( I think the Tyson was shot arguement is revisionist history , before the first fight it was holy that was viewed as shot, with Tyson coming off the back off brutally impressive wins over Bruno and Seldon. Ok he wasn't as good as the 1986 version, but he was still terrifying)
Bowe was probably the most complete of the five, could box, could infight, good punch variety and so on and if at his very best,was the most talented of the five , but he lacked something mentally, and again in this company that's trouble.
Lewis was massive, big punch,and when fully focussed a damn good boxer..but as per Chris's post earlier had his faults, and could be somewhat amateurish and was unconvincing at times, such as against Bruno and Mercer.
Klitchko will be the one here that probably raises the most eyebrows, but he has developed a style that makes him damn hard to beat, yes he may be fragile, but if he can survive the inevitable early onslaughts, and keep these bouts as boxing matches rather than slug outs and he's a match for anyone, I'm sure that loads of you will utterly disagree and suggest the merest threat of a punch in this company and he's clean out, but I can see him out boxing the likes of Holyfield, or if he's having a poor night, out jabbing a lackadaisical Bowe.
In terms of who had the best career, then again it's difficult; Tyson unified the title, had eleven or twelve world title wins, but the opposition was largely average , or past their best, and his loses were all proper beatings, and can't really be explained as lapses of concentration, or dismissed as him simply being shot.
Holyfield has some of the best wins, but the most losses and some of those to less than stellar opponents than these.
Bowe lacks the longevity of the others, and outside of Holyfield his world title opponents were dreadful.
Lewis has arguably the best career, longevity , lots of defences, avenged his two defeats in emphatic style, won all the titles and the quality of opponents is at least equal ( better in my eyes) than of Tyson, two Olympic medals, retired at the right time , and with plenty of money in the bank.
Wlad has longevity, good number of defences, but mostly urine poor opponents.
So I guess that I would go for Lewis, but not easily, I could see him losing to anyone in this company, but not twice, and his record, bar the two obvious black marks is a good as anyone outside of Ali, so I guess he deserves to be viewed as the best of the last 25 years

horizontalhero wrote: Tyson, Holyfield, Bowe, Lewis and Wlad Klitchko were all outstanding champions, so choosing a best is dependent on your criteria.

Bowe was NOT an outstanding champion. Granted he beat a peak & unbeaten Holyfield; but he defended against a shot Dokes & a never-had-it-anyway Ferguson, then lost his title back to Holyfield. Granted he won the WBO belt, but he did that against Herbie Hide. Hardly the stuff of legend considering the only other title fight he had was the rather poor Jorge Luis Gonzalez. His "dominance" of the Heavies ended for me after his first fight with Holyfield when he threw away the WBC belt instead of fighting their no 1 contender. "Chicken Bowe" - was a poor insult ever more apt?

Evander Holyfield or Evan Field.? Which one beat tyson?

Duty281 wrote:Lewis is easily the best HW of the last 25 years for my money. Let's see here:


5) Had an iron chin.

Rock solid there Duty.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=inehc0s0rDs

Lewis was a thinker. Maybe too much of one. He seemed to decide whether he was going to box or fight, and stick to it. To the outsider those decisions could seem a bit arbitrary.

Az has called him lucky... He was in a sense, that he got his names, vk excepted, when they were past their best.

An alternative perspective is that legacy wise he was very unlucky.

Had that McCall punch (thrown blind, but to a plan) not landed: Lewis may well have fought bowe, and then Tyson and holy earlier. Had he won them (not saying he would) any debate about his standing would have been removed.

Lewis was frozen out after McCall, and without that defeat may not have fallen under manny's tutorage. The whole heavy scene of the 90's was changed by that punch, and for the fan, not for the better.

milkyboy wrote:Lewis was frozen out after McCall, and without that defeat may not have fallen under manny's tutorage. The whole heavy scene of the 90's was changed by that punch, and for the fan, not for the better.

I think it was wonderfully ironic that Manny was in McCall's corner that night...

Horizon,how can you say that Tyson was coming off two impressive wins over Seldon and Bruno before his first fight with Holyfield, they were both beaten before the first bell and neither even made a show of wanting to be there. And I thought that your nationality depended on where you were born which would make Lewis British, not Candian or Jamacan.

Because at the time that is how they were viewed. The destruction of Bruno was even more brutal than their first encounter, and yes , post event it's easy to see that Frank was petrified, but the way Tyson tore into him , you would have to say he had good reason to be !
Tyson had won back to of his three belts in less than four rounds, whilst Holy had struggled to get past a past his best Czyz. People were seriously worried that Holyfield was going to be badly injured, nobody was talking about Tyson being shot.