Post Manny v Mosley discussion

First topic message reminder :

Made me long for the heady days of Hopkins/Calzaghe!!!

Off to bed, no further comment to make on that snore-fest except to say that Mayweather should sign to fight Manny IMMEDIATELY

Scottrf wrote:

oxring wrote:Floyd has great wins over Collazo, Castillo x2, Mosley. Good wins over Hatton et al.

Corrales.

Thanks for pointing that out Scott! Edited accordingly.

Clottey is a former WW world champ, ranked top 5 in the world at the time - thats a pretty good win. This is certainly not an easy thing to do, it takes a fighter of great ability. Every win, title defence, world champ defeated adds to a fighters legacy. He didn't lose and get knocked out in 4 rounds. I'd rate Margarito as perhaps Pacquiao's greatest victory, the mans a physical monster and experienced WW champion. Pacquiao also picked up the LMW title and became an 8 weight world champ.

Pacquiao's strategy against Clottey and Mosely was ultimately successful. Presumably, if either of them countered more or added something else to the fight, then Pacquiao would need to adapt as well. But, he didn't particularly have to in these fights, albeit neither Clottey or Mosely were able to. Certainly, neither landed a great deal and both fights were virtual shut outs. A fight with Mayweather may turn out to be a very different engagement. As both advance in age, inevitably neither will remain the competitors they once were. Its possible Pacquiao is slowing down a bit, but i reckon if he needed to raise the tempo in his next bout he could still do it.

But, Mosely also deserves some credit. He has been a great competitor and ambassador the sport. From another perspective the man is positively fearless climbing into the ring at 40 years of age with Pacquiao and Mayweather.

rowley wrote:Please try to be objective. Please try to debate the issues rather than the poster. Please do not WUM
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Well said Ox, this is what winds me up more than anything about the whole Manny Floyd thing, the way the opinions have become so polarised and entrenched that ny criticism or praise of the fighters involved is seem as a weakening of their stance by certain posters. All this means is a valid and mature debate bout the topics becomes an impossibility.

Truth is last night was a lacklustre performance by his current standards by Manny, whether this was an off night, the result of ageing, Mosley's tactics or indication of a lack of adaptability in his game is a valid topic for discussion, but alas is one we have virtually no chance of having.

Yep. Manny looked pretty poor last night - and to me it looked like he'd slowed down. Johnny Nelson said after Margarito that he thought Manny was slower than in previous fights. Time catches up with us all - and after 50odd fights - I think Manny has every right to be getting old. But if he has slowed - I hope he calls it a day whilst he's ahead. That b'stard Arum will flog Manny until he's dead - he needs to get out whilst his brains are still intact.

In sad news, Dorian's portrait now has several holes in it. Noticeably over his arms, which have prevented him from ever throwing a punch. His reflexes, last night, weren't that bad actually, in fact, I'd say they looked a touch better than against Floyd. But he doesn't seem able to pull the trigger on his punches anymore and surely retirement is calling.

rowley wrote:Please try to be objective. Please try to debate the issues rather than the poster. Please do not WUM
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Well said Ox, this is what winds me up more than anything about the whole Manny Floyd thing, the way the opinions have become so polarised and entrenched that ny criticism or praise of the fighters involved is seem as a weakening of their stance by certain posters. All this means is a valid and mature debate bout the topics becomes an impossibility.

Truth is last night was a lacklustre performance by his current standards by Manny, whether this was an off night, the result of ageing, Mosley's tactics or indication of a lack of adaptability in his game is a valid topic for discussion, but alas is one we have virtually no chance of having.

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Well, that sounds very objective. Surely, objectivity refers to an open and honest analysis of a subject matter? The continual referral to Mosely as Dorian and skepticism of this fight, seems to go hand in hand with criticism of last nights fight. I also have noticed praise/ or criticism of a boxer or fight to suit a pre-existing argument. Comments about other posters are still not uncommon either. This is despite regular reminders from the OPs.

Chris - you can still be skeptical about the fight and remain objective.

I meant, but never got round to making an article last week slating Arum for his matchmaking this weekend. It was an awful fight for him to make - with risk and little of anything other than financial reward for himself. Hideous.

However - the issue o whether Manny is declining should be addressed. Yet we aren't addressing it - largely because on the one hand we have one poster telling us that actually - last night Manny was awesome. And another poster telling us that Manny was always sh*te anyway.

And when you patiently explain to them they are incorrect - they refuse to accept all your facts and continue to say the same things - like a broken record. Its pathetic and immature.

Shane let himself down in that fight last night, the very least a prize fighter should do is to try and win the fight.

Mosley didn't even want to do that.

Mosley made himself look like a bigger disgrace by the way he complained everytime Manny's hair brushed his face and wanted to touched glove everytime Manny landed a decent shot.

Manny need to stop being so nice in the ring, stop playing thise pat-a-cake game, fighters will take advantage of his good nature to gain breathers as Shane did.

At least if he fights Floyd they won't be so pally.

Oxy if we're classing Hatton as a great win for Pacquiao then it has to be for Mayweather too and would also add De La Hoya and Hernandez as great wins too but that's merely a differing of opinion

I should elaborate slightly on what I meant, Clottey, Margarito and Mosley aren't legacy defining fights, in years to come when we discuss Pacquiao they aren't going to be the kind of fights that we remember him for

Also think the objective view of yesterdays fight is that it was a poor choice of opponent, there were better fights to be made against Bradley, Berto or any of the light middleweights.

Manny won every round last night, he put Shane down and hurt him more than a few time. More than doubled the punches landed by Mosley, was never hurt in the whole fight never in trouble and had Shane running for pretty much all of the fight.

But compared to Pacquiao's previous high standards, some people consider this a bad performance.

Would like to be an opponent when he has a good day.

I class Hatton as a better win for Pacquiao than Floyd given that it was at 140 - where Hatton was MUCH more effective - and it was a 2 round blowout, whereas Hatton-Floyd was much cagier - with Hatton even sneaking a couple of rounds.

DLH is a better win for Floyd than Manny IMO - I agree. Hernandez ok.

D4 - do you thyink the tripe we witnessed last night was a good performance by Manny?

Not sure against Mayweather who was a small Welterweight that the weight mattered all that much for Hatton, against the bigger guys it possibly would be but he is which is often forgotten naturally bigger than Floyd.

The Hernandez win was punch perfect, Gennaro was a better Super Featherweight than any of the Welterweights either has faced.

oxring wrote:I class Hatton as a better win for Pacquiao than Floyd given that it was at 140 - where Hatton was MUCH more effective - and it was a 2 round blowout, whereas Hatton-Floyd was much cagier - with Hatton even sneaking a couple of rounds.

DLH is a better win for Floyd than Manny IMO - I agree. Hernandez ok.

D4 - do you thyink the tripe we witnessed last night was a good performance by Manny?

He won the fight winning every round, the probelm is Manny has set the bar to high, if Berto would have done that to Mosley, people would have been going on about how great Berto is.

Was the fight entertaing?

It did not live up to expectation, mainly because of Shanes tactics, 3rd round, 10th round and 11th were good.

Maybe Manny could have set a higher pace earlier on or taken more chance, but maybe this just exposes the myth that Pacquiao is reckless.

Shane does have power, and Manny was not going get to reckless to early.


Shane landed a few good shot, but Manny just walked through them, got to be demoralising for Shane.

It doesn't matter who was involved it was still a poor lacklustre performance

D4 - you cannot compare Berto with Pacquiao unless you are suggesting that Berto is on Pacquiao's level. You have described Manny as the GOAT in the past - and whilst I might not go that far - I do think he's great - and in a different league from Berto.

As such - the standards set for him are much higher.

Re: Shane's good shots - I felt Manny looked a bit worried after each "big shot". However - when Shane opened up - Manny startied to return fire and the fight looked better.

I agree that much of the reason why the fight was such a stinker was the fault of Mosley.

However - that doesn't make it a good performance.

D4 - do you think that Manny has slowed down - and hasn't got the same amount in the tank as he once did?

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not sure against Mayweather who was a small Welterweight that the weight mattered all that much for Hatton, against the bigger guys it possibly would be but he is which is often forgotten naturally bigger than Floyd.

The Hernandez win was punch perfect, Gennaro was a better Super Featherweight than any of the Welterweights either has faced.

Mainly because Floyd avoided all the top welters

D4thincarnation wrote:

oxring wrote:I class Hatton as a better win for Pacquiao than Floyd given that it was at 140 - where Hatton was MUCH more effective - and it was a 2 round blowout, whereas Hatton-Floyd was much cagier - with Hatton even sneaking a couple of rounds.

DLH is a better win for Floyd than Manny IMO - I agree. Hernandez ok.

D4 - do you thyink the tripe we witnessed last night was a good performance by Manny?

He won the fight winning every round, the probelm is Manny has set the bar to high, if Berto would have done that to Mosley, people would have been going on about how great Berto is.

Was the fight entertaing?

It did not live up to expectation, mainly because of Shanes tactics, 3rd round, 10th round and 11th were good.

Maybe Manny could have set a higher pace earlier on or taken more chance, but maybe this just exposes the myth that Pacquiao is reckless.

Shane does have power, and Manny was not going get to reckless to early.


Shane landed a few good shot, but Manny just walked through them, got to be demoralising for Shane.

You live in a fantasy world.

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Not sure against Mayweather who was a small Welterweight that the weight mattered all that much for Hatton, against the bigger guys it possibly would be but he is which is often forgotten naturally bigger than Floyd.

The Hernandez win was punch perfect, Gennaro was a better Super Featherweight than any of the Welterweights either has faced.

Mainly because Floyd avoided all the top welters

Me and Oxy having debating this sensibly, so politely butt out

Top welter of the 2005-2010

Pacquiao
Margarito
Miguel Cotto
Shane Mosley
Paul Williams

I think my point is more than valid.

Like I said your opinion isn't wanted on this

It was an awful fight, although the Arce fight did make up for staying up so late.

Shanes lack of ambition was frustrating, but did we expect anything else. At 39 he is was clearly over the hill and his one sided beat down by Floyd and draw with Mora confirmed that. As Jeff has suggested I would like to the the "greatest" fight on the planet would have the key to unlock Mosely obvious defence, clearly not...

Mosely needs to retire, he is slurring his words and would lose to most top 10 welters... not something I want to see happen to a legend.

Manny/Floyd needs to happen, and if they can both put their ego's aside I fancy Floyd to totally shut Manny out.

I guess landing 182 shots to 82 and serving up a devastating knock down as well as hurting Shane more than a few times in the fight having him running, holding and looking for the ref for help, is not having the key.

D4thincarnation wrote:I guess landing 182 shots to 82 and serving up a devastating knock down as well as hurting Shane more than a few times in the fight having him running, holding and looking for the ref for help, is not having the key.

Exactly...

Did you enjoy the fight?

They're stats D4, you forgot your not the only one who WATCHED THE FIGHT

D4thincarnation wrote:I guess landing 182 shots to 82 and serving up a devastating knock down as well as hurting Shane more than a few times in the fight having him running, holding and looking for the ref for help, is not having the key.

If Mosley had looked even remotely good in the last two years, or if he was ten years younger, then people might be more impressed.

Pacquiao failed to close the deal.

Pacquiao even didn't even have to hang on for dear life in this fight as some of Mosley's past opponents have done.

But he didn't look anywhere near as good beating him nor was he facing a version as live

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao even didn't even have to hang on for dear life in this fight as some of Mosley's past opponents have done.

Tremor Berbick didn't have any problems with Ali either.

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao even didn't even have to hang on for dear life in this fight as some of Mosley's past opponents have done.

Did you enjoy the fight?

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:I guess landing 182 shots to 82 and serving up a devastating knock down as well as hurting Shane more than a few times in the fight having him running, holding and looking for the ref for help, is not having the key.

Exactly...

Did you enjoy the fight?

Mosley made it a bad fight. There were some good rounds, But Pacquiao won by a shut out.

Did not live up to the high standards of a Manny Pacquiao fight.

BALTIMORA wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao even didn't even have to hang on for dear life in this fight as some of Mosley's past opponents have done.

Tremor Berbick didn't have any problems with Ali either.

Neither did Larry Holmes.

Or did Holmes get sloppy in the second and get caught with a couple on right hooks?

D4thincarnation wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:I guess landing 182 shots to 82 and serving up a devastating knock down as well as hurting Shane more than a few times in the fight having him running, holding and looking for the ref for help, is not having the key.

Exactly...

Did you enjoy the fight?

Mosley made it a bad fight. There were some good rounds, But Pacquiao won by a shut out.

Did not live up to the high standards of a Manny Pacquiao fight.

Because Pacquiao failed to show he can handle someone being defensive. Even shaky Shane Mosley.

Then again Mayweather fought Mosley a year earlier coming off one of his biggest wins rather than a decisive beat down and a draw. Anyone with half a brain knows which is the far better victory unfortunately some like you have no objectivity, so do us and a favour and leave this discussion to the more intelligent among us.

D4thincarnation wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao even didn't even have to hang on for dear life in this fight as some of Mosley's past opponents have done.

Tremor Berbick didn't have any problems with Ali either.

Neither did Larry Holmes.

Or did Holmes get sloppy in the second and get caught with a couple on right hooks?

What were the scores?

BALTIMORA wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:I guess landing 182 shots to 82 and serving up a devastating knock down as well as hurting Shane more than a few times in the fight having him running, holding and looking for the ref for help, is not having the key.

Exactly...

Did you enjoy the fight?

Mosley made it a bad fight. There were some good rounds, But Pacquiao won by a shut out.

Did not live up to the high standards of a Manny Pacquiao fight.

Because Pacquiao failed to show he can handle someone being defensive. Even shaky Shane Mosley.

Hmm connecting with his punches whilst getting hit significantly less. Hurting and dropping your opponent whilst walking through what the throw at you.

Mainly because Mosley wasn't throwing anything though

Like I said move along D4, this forum isn't for children

It really does amaze me how people can think this is a good win...

I think Manny would get credit if he beat Sweat Pea.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Mainly because Mosley wasn't throwing anything though

Like I said move along D4, this forum isn't for children

Agreed. Why is he still tolerated on here?

The Mighty Atom wrote:Then again Mayweather fought Mosley a year earlier coming off one of his biggest wins rather than a decisive beat down and a draw. Anyone with half a brain knows which is the far better victory unfortunately some like you have no objectivity, so do us and a favour and leave this discussion to the more intelligent among us.

He was also ring rusty and overtrained?

Mosley was in much better condition last night

Move along D4

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Then again Mayweather fought Mosley a year earlier coming off one of his biggest wins rather than a decisive beat down and a draw. Anyone with half a brain knows which is the far better victory unfortunately some like you have no objectivity, so do us and a favour and leave this discussion to the more intelligent among us.

He was also ring rusty and overtrained?

Mosley was in much better condition last night

Mods? Admin? This is clearly bullocks.

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Then again Mayweather fought Mosley a year earlier coming off one of his biggest wins rather than a decisive beat down and a draw. Anyone with half a brain knows which is the far better victory unfortunately some like you have no objectivity, so do us and a favour and leave this discussion to the more intelligent among us.

He was also ring rusty and overtrained?

Mosley was in much better condition last night

O deary me...

Looked great against Mora

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Then again Mayweather fought Mosley a year earlier coming off one of his biggest wins rather than a decisive beat down and a draw. Anyone with half a brain knows which is the far better victory unfortunately some like you have no objectivity, so do us and a favour and leave this discussion to the more intelligent among us.

He was also ring rusty and overtrained?

Mosley was in much better condition last night

So you'll agree Cotto was overtrained? Entered Camp 30 days early.

Also, was Marg ring rusty?

I look forward to your reply...

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Then again Mayweather fought Mosley a year earlier coming off one of his biggest wins rather than a decisive beat down and a draw. Anyone with half a brain knows which is the far better victory unfortunately some like you have no objectivity, so do us and a favour and leave this discussion to the more intelligent among us.

He was also ring rusty and overtrained?

Mosley was in much better condition last night

O deary me...

Looked great against Mora

Won the fight IMO, but Mora did a Shane.

Away you go there's a good boy

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Then again Mayweather fought Mosley a year earlier coming off one of his biggest wins rather than a decisive beat down and a draw. Anyone with half a brain knows which is the far better victory unfortunately some like you have no objectivity, so do us and a favour and leave this discussion to the more intelligent among us.

He was also ring rusty and overtrained?

Mosley was in much better condition last night

So you'll agree Cotto was overtrained? Entered Camp 30 days early.

Also, was Marg ring rusty?

I look forward to your reply...

30 days is one thing 5 months is quite another.

17 months out the ring, that is a long time.

Mosley didn't gas out this fight, because of his better conditioning and he was more loose and not as tense.

Gents,

Given the outcome the of last nights fight, and the Floyd rumours, this type of discussion was inevitable, i don't see any need for insults and childish remarks.

Please cut it out.

Thanks,

KB

Was it a good win? no. was in a comprehensive win? yes. He won every round on 2 score cards, so no despute it was an easy win. Bur Mosley's way of fighting maed it an easy win, and i think pacman chose to take those easy rounds, instead of using his footwork to close him down and cut him off in the ring. So it was an off day, but a comfortabe win.

D4thincarnation wrote:

Lumbering_Jack wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Then again Mayweather fought Mosley a year earlier coming off one of his biggest wins rather than a decisive beat down and a draw. Anyone with half a brain knows which is the far better victory unfortunately some like you have no objectivity, so do us and a favour and leave this discussion to the more intelligent among us.

He was also ring rusty and overtrained?

Mosley was in much better condition last night

So you'll agree Cotto was overtrained? Entered Camp 30 days early.

Also, was Marg ring rusty?

I look forward to your reply...

30 days is one thing 5 months is quite another.

17 months out the ring, that is a long time.

Mosley didn't gas out this fight, because of his better conditioning and he was more loose and not as tense.

So... 4 months gets you in peak shape, but 5 and you are overtrained?

Also, SSM did not beat Mora as you have suggested.

Do you agree Marg was ring rusty?

Marg was not ring rusty.

Marg was in fantastic shape

Yeah right, off you go D4 let the sensible posters debate for once

D4thincarnation wrote:Marg was not ring rusty.

Marg was in fantastic shape

Thought so, 1 fight is 22 months or so, and that was a journey man.

Do you beleive the lies you write?