Post Manny v Mosley discussion

First topic message reminder :

Made me long for the heady days of Hopkins/Calzaghe!!!

Off to bed, no further comment to make on that snore-fest except to say that Mayweather should sign to fight Manny IMMEDIATELY

My only criticism of Manny is that he can be too nice, show too much respect and be pally with his opponent in the ring.

Hopefully Floyd will get him riled up and it would be a short fight.

D4thincarnation wrote:My only criticism of Manny is that he can be too nice, show too much respect and be pally with his opponent in the ring.

Hopefully Floyd will get him riled up and it would be a short fight.

I personally dont think Floyd will stop Manny early so the fight will see the second half.

oxring wrote:Az - that's utter tripe. Who else has beaten Cotto then Clottey at WW? Then fought Marg - still weighing at WW. Then fought mosley. And had the decency to beat the number 1 LWW in the world at his own weight.

If he's been manufactured - he's a rolex.

Cotto beat Clottey (without stips). Clottey was never a very good boxer. Just tough and strong with basic fundermental skills. The Cotto fight will always be viewed as a catchweight fight and as such I do not count it as a big win. If the extra pound didn't matter, why insist on it? Plus Cotto was handed a career beating by Marg previously. Cotto was never the same after that fight.

As for the Marg fight, he was coming off a long lay off and was suddenly handed a title fight at catchweight. Plus he was handed a beating by SSM.

The Hatton fight was a good result no matter what.

A not so close look at Pac's post LW resume shows glaring holes. And the added bite that his opponents have all been top rank fighters. I dont know about him being a rolex, but his career post LW is manufactured. Style over substance. Opponents hand picked to make him look good. Credit to him, he has looked good. But as soon as SSM posed a different question Manny suddenly did notlook so good.

Kenny Bayless broke the rules to give Mosley an advantage.

There was no standing 8 count, but Bayless gave Mosley one anyways, precious time for Mosley to recover.

D4thincarnation wrote:Kenny Bayless broke the rules to give Mosley an advantage.

There was no standing 8 count, but Bayless gave Mosley one anyways, precious time for Mosley to recover.

He also done the same for Manny. He was in trouble after the brutal 10 rnd knock down.

Good god your like a baby, moaning about the smallest things, what excuse are you going to come up with next?

Bottom line is Pacquiao performed badly against someone who had no intention of trying to win, twist that as much as you want but he was poor last night.

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao even didn't even have to hang on for dear life in this fight as some of Mosley's past opponents have done.

A few of Mosleys opponents in 1969 held on for dear life also. He is now older and slower. The body couldn't react to the many oppenings Manny gave him. A younger boxer would have capitalised on the many errors that plague Manny's game.

TO ALL POSTERS

If the pathetic name calling continues - this thread and all that spawn from it will be locked.
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Az - Now you're changing your story. First - his entire career was a hype. Now his career post-LW has been a hype.

Well lets look at this another way.

Floyd's 1st WW career consisted off the journeyman Baldomir, a coming-off-a-loss Judah, a fringe LWW contender at 147 in Mitchell and Hatton.

Play that against Cotto at a catchweight, Clottey, Margarito, Mosley. Margarito is included as the ring rightly pointed out - Manny weighed under the WW limit for the fight. Yes - Floyd has come back to beat JMM (fat and slow, at a catchweight which Floyd then didn't bother to make) and Mosley. However - who's WW career looks more impressive?

If you say Floyd - you're on the WUM.

Who the hell else could he have fought anyway?

The only viable fights for Manny now are Martinez at LMW (too big, too strong), Floyd, Ortiz and Bradley/Khan at LWW. Only an idiot would ask for Judah.

That isn't many people to fight/beat.

If he retired now - his legacy would be fine - and he's the greatest of this era by some margin.

D4thincarnation wrote:Kenny Bayless broke the rules to give Mosley an advantage.

There was no standing 8 count, but Bayless gave Mosley one anyways, precious time for Mosley to recover.

That wasn't a standing 8 count, he touched down.

azania wrote:

oxring wrote:Az - that's utter tripe. Who else has beaten Cotto then Clottey at WW? Then fought Marg - still weighing at WW. Then fought mosley. And had the decency to beat the number 1 LWW in the world at his own weight.

If he's been manufactured - he's a rolex.

Cotto beat Clottey (without stips). Clottey was never a very good boxer. Just tough and strong with basic fundermental skills. The Cotto fight will always be viewed as a catchweight fight and as such I do not count it as a big win. If the extra pound didn't matter, why insist on it? Plus Cotto was handed a career beating by Marg previously. Cotto was never the same after that fight.

As for the Marg fight, he was coming off a long lay off and was suddenly handed a title fight at catchweight. Plus he was handed a beating by SSM.

The Hatton fight was a good result no matter what.

A not so close look at Pac's post LW resume shows glaring holes. And the added bite that his opponents have all been top rank fighters. I dont know about him being a rolex, but his career post LW is manufactured. Style over substance. Opponents hand picked to make him look good. Credit to him, he has looked good. But as soon as SSM posed a different question Manny suddenly did notlook so good.

What questions did he post? Only one i think you can mean is lack of accuracy by staying out of range? Although he didn't counter, or actually challenge him, so i don't see it as posing a question.

Give is a rest Ox, this high and mighty attitude you have aquired is tiresome.

I would say they have similar records. Lets be honest, Clottey and Mosely were rubbish, as werr Baldomir and Mitchell. Two of them have bigger names but I would argue they were at similar standards when they fought.

To the casual uneducated fan Manny's probably does look better, but they won't be aware of other circumstances...

Also, you cant include Marg as a WW win as he fought for a LMW belt...

Have Mayweather as the greatest of this era Oxy but that's more on god given talent than anything

Again I don't see the clear superiority of Pacquaio at Welterweight as opposed to Mayweather

Cotto, Clottey and Mosley isn't that much better than Baldomir, Judah, Mosley, Marquez and Hatton. Clottey and Baldomir are for me on the same level but Carlos did at least have a defining win at the weight and was in pretty good form, Cotto is the best win of the lot but the Mosley fight was a non event much like the Marquez fight. If we're including Margarito i'd be inclined to include the De La Hoya fight where Mayweather weighed 149lbs in ring which is no bigger than your average Light Welterweight.

Both made their names in lower weight classes where Mayweather has a defining weight of 130lbs something Pacquiao does not

Why is it no one seems to like both of them?

Pac is an excellent fighter who's style won't appeal to the purists as much. Floyd is unbeleivably talented but his style won't appeal to people who aren't a fan of defencive or technical boxing.

Why does it need to be one or the other?

Scottrf wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Kenny Bayless broke the rules to give Mosley an advantage.

There was no standing 8 count, but Bayless gave Mosley one anyways, precious time for Mosley to recover.

That wasn't a standing 8 count, he touched down.

Sorry, my mistake, I was thinking of the mandatory 8.

I acknowledge that Pacquiao is most probably a top 30 ATG but his style doesn't appeal to me, it's lack the clinical precise application of skill that I enjoy watching, try to stay as objective with regards to him as possible but at times it's impossible on here.

I haven't changed my story at all. I focussed on his post LW career as that is where the manufacturing of his career gathered pace. I didn't bother with his pre LW career because I have given my opinion on that already.

Comparing the two fighters at WW on paper Pac wins hands down. But the difference between the two is that none of Floyd's fights have had stips with the exception of JMM which I discount. He fought Oscar at a weight Oscar was comfortable with. 3 of Pacs big wins post LW have come against opponents Floyd has beaten.. He took away the 0 from Hatton.

Who could he have fought? He could have rematched JMM at LW. He could have fought Bradley, Alexander or even Maidana at LWW. The problem also is what is Manny's weight? Is he looking to fight JMM at full WW or at LWW? Asking JMM to come up to WW is plainly ridiculous. But JMM will do it as the money will be a career high. When Pac beats an older and fat JMM what will it add to his legacy? On paper it will look good. But in reality it will be another asterix.

As for Floyd, imo he has wasted what could have been a great career due to his inactivity. When the two actually meet, Floyd will win and win relatively easily.

I will never discount Judah at LWW. On his day he can be a nightmare for anyone. Styles make fights and Judah is all wrong for Manny imo. A very fast, big punching, slick boxer will always give the likes of Manny problems.

The Mighty Atom wrote:I acknowledge that Pacquiao is most probably a top 30 ATG but his style doesn't appeal to me, it's lack the clinical precise application of skill that I enjoy watching, try to stay as objective with regards to him as possible but at times it's impossible on here.

I love Manny's style. He makes for an exciting fight. Given a choice I would rather the edge of my seat all action style than the pure boxing skills of Floyd. But the pure boxing of floyd will beat Manny's all action style 9 out of 10 times.

The continual referral to Mosely as Dorian and skepticism of this fight, seems to go hand in hand with criticism of last nights fight.
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Chris will make no apologies for referring to Mosley as Dorian and will continue to do so. This is not anything to do with Mosley or Manny and never has been it is a refelection of the fact that when Floyd announced he was fighting Shane, Shane was an old man way past his best but when 12 months later Manny announced he was fighting him he was Shane there was no reference, or indeed even an acknowledgement from D4 that Shane was indeed old, or even a willingness to admit he was older than when he fought Floyd.

Now in light of this the only sensible conclusion one could draw is that Shane had found a way to reverse the ageing process. Being a well read sort the only person, ficticious or otherwise I could think of who had acheieved this feat was Dorian Gray and so it seemed only appropriate to call Shane by this name to give praise to what appears to be a truly epic occurance.

Lumbering_Jack wrote:Give is a rest Ox, this high and mighty attitude you have aquired is tiresome.
I would say they have similar records. Lets be honest, Clottey and Mosely were rubbish, as werr Baldomir and Mitchell. Two of them have bigger names but I would argue they were at similar standards when they fought.

To the casual uneducated fan Manny's probably does look better, but they won't be aware of other circumstances...

Also, you cant include Marg as a WW win as he fought for a LMW belt...

I suggest reminding yourself of why you were last banned....

What questions did he post? Only one i think you can mean is lack of accuracy by staying out of range? Although he didn't counter, or actually challenge him, so i don't see it as posing a question..

What to do when a boxer is not standing in front of him to be hit. He reminded me of Eubank somewhat. Totally clueless when the opponent didn't attack him.

prettyboykev wrote:Why is it no one seems to like both of them?

Pac is an excellent fighter who's style won't appeal to the purists as much. Floyd is unbeleivably talented but his style won't appeal to people who aren't a fan of defencive or technical boxing.

Why does it need to be one or the other?

I don't like Floyd because he has boring style especially at welterweight and he has not fought the best welter around, although claiming to be the best but not having the balls to prove it. His attitude and the type of person that he is, is just the cherry on the cake.

If Floyd fought and beat, Cotto, Margarito, Williams and Pacquiao, who could not like his boxing, but he has failed to even to attempt to.

Pacquiao is allways willing to fight anyone and will come to fight, and what he has done has shocked the boxing world time and time again with his achievements.

Look at forums a year before Pacquiao fought those opponents, most of them give Pacquiao little to no chance, but those same people will change there story soon after the event.

It's not his style I don't like at all but you had aggressive in fighters like Chavez and Duran who were incredibly precise with what they did, never wasted a punch, set everything up beautifully against a whole manner of different styles but with Pacquiao he wastes far too many punches for my liking. Leonard and Taylor had blistering hand speed but were again deadly accurate with their punches, personally don't think Pacman matches up too well against the elite in any division he's fought in. I might be being a bit too harsh but the falsity of being a five weight world champion or a eight weight world champion really annoys me.

Look at forums a year before Pacquiao fought those opponents, most of them give Pacquiao little to no chance, but those same people will change there story soon after the event.
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Not really.

I seem to remember an article of yours saying Shane is old and will get beat by Mora.

1 year later and he is a youthful beast. It would seem it is you who changes his story.

The Mighty Atom wrote:It's not his style I don't like at all but you had aggressive in fighters like Chavez and Duran who were incredibly precise with what they did, never wasted a punch, set everything up beautifully against a whole manner of different styles but with Pacquiao he wastes far too many punches for my liking. Leonard and Taylor had blistering hand speed but were again deadly accurate with their punches, personally don't think Pacman matches up too well against the elite in any division he's fought in. I might be being a bit too harsh but the falsity of being a five weight world champion or a eight weight world champion really annoys me.

It not energy conversation.

For my money Pacquiao is one of the most accuracte punchers I have ever seen.

The more I think about it Atom, do think I am with you. As will come as a shock to absolutely nobody I don't think this era is particularly strong (the fact Pavlik was undisputed middleweight champion is my evidence) and the more I think about Manny the more I think it is something of a case of in the world of the blind the one eyed man is king. Is terrific offensively but do wonder if he is a guy who will look great when an opponent allows him to by standing in front of him and bulling forward.

Would dearly love to see him in with someone who is cute defensively or clever at countering but alas in such a weak era suh fighters are so few and far between I may be waiting some time.

The Mighty Atom wrote:It's not his style I don't like at all but you had aggressive in fighters like Chavez and Duran who were incredibly precise with what they did, never wasted a punch, set everything up beautifully against a whole manner of different styles but with Pacquiao he wastes far too many punches for my liking. Leonard and Taylor had blistering hand speed but were again deadly accurate with their punches, personally don't think Pacman matches up too well against the elite in any division he's fought in. I might be being a bit too harsh but the falsity of being a five weight world champion or a eight weight world champion really annoys me.

By the beard of the prophet, I'm going to neck a bottle of Jack Daniel and go down to the mosque for prayers. I actually agree with you.

But (there always is) Pac is still exciting. Duran, Chaves et al were all ATGs who fought and beat all without stips. Thet were exciting. So is Pac. You cannot doubt the excitment he generates. His all action style, jumping in and out and throwing zillons of punches is highly effected and entertaining to most. I just think he is supremely over-rated and has had a thoroughly manufactured career, especially post LW.

Taylor vs Pac would have been an interesting fight. I'd pick Taylor.

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:It's not his style I don't like at all but you had aggressive in fighters like Chavez and Duran who were incredibly precise with what they did, never wasted a punch, set everything up beautifully against a whole manner of different styles but with Pacquiao he wastes far too many punches for my liking. Leonard and Taylor had blistering hand speed but were again deadly accurate with their punches, personally don't think Pacman matches up too well against the elite in any division he's fought in. I might be being a bit too harsh but the falsity of being a five weight world champion or a eight weight world champion really annoys me.

It not energy conversation.

For my money Pacquiao is one of the most accuracte punchers I have ever seen.

Evidently you haven't seen a lot of boxing then.

Well against better opposition he isn't going to get away with wasting punches like he does, Jofre, Pep, Saddler, Sanchez, Nelson, Duran, Chavez, Whittaker, Starling, Trinidad and a few others would not let him get away with it.

The weapons he has are very good but they rely on his opposition being a certain style, he might be able to adapt his game to beat more stylistically pure fighters but from what i've personally seen don't think he could.

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:It's not his style I don't like at all but you had aggressive in fighters like Chavez and Duran who were incredibly precise with what they did, never wasted a punch, set everything up beautifully against a whole manner of different styles but with Pacquiao he wastes far too many punches for my liking. Leonard and Taylor had blistering hand speed but were again deadly accurate with their punches, personally don't think Pacman matches up too well against the elite in any division he's fought in. I might be being a bit too harsh but the falsity of being a five weight world champion or a eight weight world champion really annoys me.

By the beard of the prophet, I'm going to neck a bottle of Jack Daniel and go down to the mosque for prayers. I actually agree with you.

But (there always is) Pac is still exciting. Duran, Chaves et al were all ATGs who fought and beat all without stips. Thet were exciting. So is Pac. You cannot doubt the excitment he generates. His all action style, jumping in and out and throwing zillons of punches is highly effected and entertaining to most. I just think he is supremely over-rated and has had a thoroughly manufactured career, especially post LW.

Taylor vs Pac would have been an interesting fight. I'd pick Taylor.

I just don't find it exciting, I am far too much of a purist, I enjoy watching perfection rather than watching very good but fallible

Pacquiao is the most exciting boxing of his generation probably of all time.

Technically superb, great combos, blindly hand speed, fleet footwork, rentlentless workrate, great counter punching, head movement, body movement, and has devasting power.

Mosley was like Bambi after Manny put him down and that was not even a huge shot by Pacquiao.

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao is the most exciting boxing of his generation probably of all time.

Technically superb, great combos, blindly hand speed, fleet footwork, rentlentless workrate, great counter punching, head movement, body movement, and has devasting power.

Mosley was like Bambi after Manny put him down and that was not even a huge shot by Pacquiao.

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao is the most exciting boxing of his generation probably of all time.
Technically superb, great combos, blindly hand speed, fleet footwork, rentlentless workrate, great counter punching, head movement, body movement, and has devasting power.

Mosley was like Bambi after Manny put him down and that was not even a huge shot by Pacquiao.

That made me pour another drink. Thanks for the laugh mate.

azania wrote:

What questions did he post? Only one i think you can mean is lack of accuracy by staying out of range? Although he didn't counter, or actually challenge him, so i don't see it as posing a question..

What to do when a boxer is not standing in front of him to be hit. He reminded me of Eubank somewhat. Totally clueless when the opponent didn't attack him.

Well he put occasional flurries in then stood back, and watched Mosley do nothing. I think he proved he can deal with it well (as in win), but look bad doing it.

We all know he looked awful, but cruised to an easy victory, so he obviously did know what to do.

If he fought like that against money, or even JMM, he would of lost, but he wasn't fighting them, and he scored a snore fest, but easy win.

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao is the most exciting boxing of his generation probably of all time.

Technically superb, great combos, blindly hand speed, fleet footwork, rentlentless workrate, great counter punching, head movement, body movement, and has devasting power.

Mosley was like Bambi after Manny put him down and that was not even a huge shot by Pacquiao.

In your opinion and I couldn't disagree more

He's got fast hands, good footwork and decent power with a high work rate but with the rest your rather predictably over selling him

I'd love to have seen him in the ring at 140lbs against Pryor just to shut you up

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asperger_syndrome

The Mighty Atom wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao is the most exciting boxing of his generation probably of all time.

Technically superb, great combos, blindly hand speed, fleet footwork, rentlentless workrate, great counter punching, head movement, body movement, and has devasting power.

Mosley was like Bambi after Manny put him down and that was not even a huge shot by Pacquiao.

In your opinion and I couldn't disagree more

He's got fast hands, good footwork and decent power with a high work rate but with the rest your rather predictably over selling him

I'd love to have seen him in the ring at 140lbs against Pryor just to shut you up

He would have beat Pryor even with his special drink

I honestly don't give Pacquiao a chance in hell of beating Pryor at 140lbs, he'd get walked down and battered senseless for round after round before getting stopped, Pacquiao is no Alexis Arguello and we all saw how that one finished.

Not a bright move to go down the route of drug accusations when Pacquiao is involved is it really

AdZacO wrote:

azania wrote:

What questions did he post? Only one i think you can mean is lack of accuracy by staying out of range? Although he didn't counter, or actually challenge him, so i don't see it as posing a question..

What to do when a boxer is not standing in front of him to be hit. He reminded me of Eubank somewhat. Totally clueless when the opponent didn't attack him.

Well he put occasional flurries in then stood back, and watched Mosley do nothing. I think he proved he can deal with it well (as in win), but look bad doing it.

We all know he looked awful, but cruised to an easy victory, so he obviously did know what to do.

If he fought like that against money, or even JMM, he would of lost, but he wasn't fighting them, and he scored a snore fest, but easy win.

Yep. He did what he had to do to win. Interestingly though if SSM were to play the human punch bag, Pac would have looked good whilst posting a shut out.

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:Pacquiao is the most exciting boxing of his generation probably of all time.

Technically superb, great combos, blindly hand speed, fleet footwork, rentlentless workrate, great counter punching, head movement, body movement, and has devasting power.

Mosley was like Bambi after Manny put him down and that was not even a huge shot by Pacquiao.

In your opinion and I couldn't disagree more

He's got fast hands, good footwork and decent power with a high work rate but with the rest your rather predictably over selling him

I'd love to have seen him in the ring at 140lbs against Pryor just to shut you up

He would have beat Pryor even with his special drink

Perhaps they would both have agreed to random testing then.

The Mighty Atom wrote:I honestly don't give Pacquiao a chance in hell of beating Pryor at 140lbs, he'd get walked down and battered senseless for round after round before getting stopped, Pacquiao is no Alexis Arguello and we all saw how that one finished.

Not a bright move to go down the route of drug accusations when Pacquiao is involved is it really

Pryor would have come to fight and that would have been the type of fight Pacquiao would have loved and excelled in.

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:I honestly don't give Pacquiao a chance in hell of beating Pryor at 140lbs, he'd get walked down and battered senseless for round after round before getting stopped, Pacquiao is no Alexis Arguello and we all saw how that one finished.

Not a bright move to go down the route of drug accusations when Pacquiao is involved is it really

Pryor would have come to fight and that would have been the type of fight Pacquiao would have loved and excelled in.

And lost by 6 round KO.

Against someone slow possibly but Pryor wouldn't be concerned by Pacquiao's power and would have happily taken one to land a harder shot of his own. I've yet to see you debate on anything over than Pacquiao or Mayweather so very much doubt you really know anything about someone like Pryor.

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:I honestly don't give Pacquiao a chance in hell of beating Pryor at 140lbs, he'd get walked down and battered senseless for round after round before getting stopped, Pacquiao is no Alexis Arguello and we all saw how that one finished.

Not a bright move to go down the route of drug accusations when Pacquiao is involved is it really

Pryor would have come to fight and that would have been the type of fight Pacquiao would have loved and excelled in.

And lost by 6 round KO.

But Pacquiao has beifited from modern nutrition and training

The Mighty Atom wrote:Against someone slow possibly but Pryor wouldn't be concerned by Pacquiao's power and would have happily taken one to land a harder shot of his own. I've yet to see you debate on anything over than Pacquiao or Mayweather so very much doubt you really know anything about someone like Pryor.

Too frightened to move up to welter to take on some real challenges.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Against someone slow possibly but Pryor wouldn't be concerned by Pacquiao's power and would have happily taken one to land a harder shot of his own. I've yet to see you debate on anything over than Pacquiao or Mayweather so very much doubt you really know anything about someone like Pryor.

Pacquiao is a huge puncher. And ATG p4p puncher and he has a great chin. He is faster than Pryor and Pacquiao would blitz him in a war.

D4thincarnation wrote:

azania wrote:

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:I honestly don't give Pacquiao a chance in hell of beating Pryor at 140lbs, he'd get walked down and battered senseless for round after round before getting stopped, Pacquiao is no Alexis Arguello and we all saw how that one finished.

Not a bright move to go down the route of drug accusations when Pacquiao is involved is it really

Pryor would have come to fight and that would have been the type of fight Pacquiao would have loved and excelled in.

And lost by 6 round KO.

But Pacquiao has beifited from modern nutrition and training

Same as Pryor drank (allegedly).

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:I honestly don't give Pacquiao a chance in hell of beating Pryor at 140lbs, he'd get walked down and battered senseless for round after round before getting stopped, Pacquiao is no Alexis Arguello and we all saw how that one finished.

Not a bright move to go down the route of drug accusations when Pacquiao is involved is it really

Pryor would have come to fight and that would have been the type of fight Pacquiao would have loved and excelled in.

Yeah even you admit that unless a guy comes straight toward him Pacquiao's flummoxed.

Arguello, Kim and Cervantez weren't challenges at all were they and i'm sure Pacquiao would have stepped up to Welterweight at the time just to lose to Duran, Leonard, Benitez or Hearns too.

He's a pound for pound great puncher yes but from what i've seen doesn't have the power to trouble Pryor, the shots Arguello was landing are harder than anything Pacquiao could throw at him

D4thincarnation wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Against someone slow possibly but Pryor wouldn't be concerned by Pacquiao's power and would have happily taken one to land a harder shot of his own. I've yet to see you debate on anything over than Pacquiao or Mayweather so very much doubt you really know anything about someone like Pryor.

Too frightened to move up to welter to take on some real challenges.

Maybe he wanted weight stips and they refused.

Hang on hang on. This thread's off topic a bit isn't it? It's turned into yet another one-man Manny spunkfest, thanks to one person's infatuation. Again.