Post Manny v Mosley discussion

First topic message reminder :

Made me long for the heady days of Hopkins/Calzaghe!!!

Off to bed, no further comment to make on that snore-fest except to say that Mayweather should sign to fight Manny IMMEDIATELY

Would also point out it's a shame that Mosley is now 46-7-1, it gives an unfair slant on his record and it's going to appear that he lost most of his big fights which isn't the case. The Mosley of around 2000 would have knocked Cotto out, would probably have engaged Pacquiao in more a battle using his superior strength and power to win and would have been more competitive against Mayweather. Hopefully he gets remembered for being a destructive lightweight who held his own in a very good Welterweight division at the turn of the century.

Fists of Fury wrote:I realise that people do it to counter a certain someones bias yes, but that certain someone hasn't even added to this thread, yet you seem to have laid the groundworks already!

Yup, because you and I both know the kind of tripe that type of person will inevitably spout. Last night changed NOTHING about the consensus opinion on Mosley. He looked bad a year ago against Mayweather. He looked bad against Mora, which some attributed to a bad clash of styles. In this fight there was supposedly NO reason for Mosley to put in any kind of poor performance. But he did.

He wasn't suffering from ring rust, and Pacquiao's style was meant to lend itself to a better performance from Shane than Mora's style did. None of this mattered. We witnessed a much faded former great spend 36 minutes going backwards. If anything the fact Mosley wasn't ring rusty highlights how he's gotten even worse since he fought Mayweather.

Yet in spite of the pitiful showing from shaky Shane, Pacquiao looked like he was swatting flies six inches away from Mosley's face, rather than trying to hit his opponent.

Poor showing from both parties, and Mosley's decline doesn't excuse Pacquiao's inability to take advantage.

BALTIMORA wrote:

Poor showing from both parties

My thoughts exactly from the fight.
Mosley was for the most part on the defence all the way through the fight, and Manny only had little spells here and there. The 11th was the best from Manny after he got pushed down, that clearly angered him and he got a bit more agressive. Shame he didnt do that earlier on.

FMJ was a masterclass on a guy on the slide

Pacquiao's was a laboured performance against a guy on the slide

Floyd did a better job than Pacquiao, he landed miles more punches etc.

It's not even close.

Shockingly bad display from both, hence the boo's from the crowd.

Y I Man wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

Poor showing from both parties

My thoughts exactly from the fight.
Mosley was for the most part on the defence all the way through the fight, and Manny only had little spells here and there. The 11th was the best from Manny after he got pushed down, that clearly angered him and he got a bit more agressive. Shame he didnt do that earlier on.

I haven't seen it yet, but so far I've not read anything that praises either fighter. Arum's statements as reported on boxingscene are as you'd expect.

He blames Mosley rather than admit it was a poor match-up.

He slates Mayweather (again).

He touts a November or December fight with JMM, and failing that either Bradley or Judah. Technically all those are the 'little guys', all fighting below 147.

Even Roach is saying that Shane should retire. He thought that before the fight, let's be honest, but he wasn't gonna turn down the payday. I'm just frustrated and exasperated at the way Arum is cynically playing the fans for mugs, I guess.

The other thing that crossed my mind was how much the Fight Camp & 24/7 programmes are largely pointless. All they are is extended adverts which do nothing but paint an inaccurate picture about the reality of the fight.

Judah or Bradley would be a good fight. Manny is a small WW so the fact that Judah and Bradley would be stepping up from 140lbs is neither here nor there.

I'd back Zap to shock Manny. Not sold on bradley. But seeing how Manny used his head against SSM, if he did the same against Bradley he would come off second best.

I have said it before. Moneybags is going to "do a Sugar Ray Leonard".
When the clamour for a match-up with Marvin Hagler PEAKED and most presumed it could never happen, Ray announced the fight.Unfortunately Marvellous had peaked too.Sugar got on his bike and sculpted a "Win" against a man who by rights should have won, but with his street smarts and the help of Old Father Time, and a fresher pair of legs than the more actively prizefighting Hagler.
On this evidence the big fight will happen, and I say it again, it will be an anti-climax. Mayweather all night long.Bye Manny, thanks for the memories.

andygf wrote:I have said it before. Moneybags is going to "do a Sugar Ray Leonard".
When the clamour for a match-up with Marvin Hagler PEAKED and most presumed it could never happen, Ray announced the fight.Unfortunately Marvellous had peaked too.Sugar got on his bike and sculpted a "Win" against a man who by rights should have won, but with his street smarts and the help of Old Father Time, and a fresher pair of legs than the more actively prizefighting Hagler.
On this evidence the big fight will happen, and I say it again, it will be an anti-climax. Mayweather all night long.Bye Manny, thanks for the memories.

Floyd is older than Manny. Even if they fought 2 years ago, Floyd's style is all wrong for Manny. Manny was very hesitant to let fly against SSM. Probably doe to SSM's counterpunching ability. Seeing as Floyd is far better in every department (except punch power) than SSM, I suspect Manny will be even more hesitant. Marquez has set the blueprint. Floyd will capitalise on that and blow him away by wide UD. Easy night for Floyd. I have never been sold on the Manny hype. Too many stipulations on his biggest wins.

I just dread the 'Shane lasted 12 therefore he must have been better than people expected' dross. If Mayweather can't be arranged, Manny should quit. Otherwise he's gonna just keep fighting one-sided fights until HE'S the old man.

BALTIMORA wrote:I just dread the 'Shane lasted 12 therefore he must have been better than people expected' dross. If Mayweather can't be arranged, Manny should quit. Otherwise he's gonna just keep fighting one-sided fights until HE'S the old man.

It wont be long before people start taking a very close look at Manny's record after Oscar. He now seems ready to fight JMM which imo happened 3 years too late. When will he fight a live opponent?

azania wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:I just dread the 'Shane lasted 12 therefore he must have been better than people expected' dross. If Mayweather can't be arranged, Manny should quit. Otherwise he's gonna just keep fighting one-sided fights until HE'S the old man.

It wont be long before people start taking a very close look at Manny's record after Oscar. He now seems ready to fight JMM which imo happened 3 years too late. When will he fight a live opponent?

See, I'm of the opinion that all of his wins at the higher weights (135+) have SOME merit, simply based upon where Pacquiao started out. The problem I have is that there ARE a lot of mitigating factors, extenuating circumstances, asterisks...call them what we will. JMM is, in my opinion at least, being bullied almost in the sense that Arum knows how much Marquez wants the third fight. Perhaps bullied is too strong a word, but certainly having his arm twisted over terms.

I wonder after last night if Shane or someone around him, perhaps Richardson, will admit he's nothing left to offer boxing other than being a shot name for up-and-comers.

BALTIMORA wrote:

azania wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:I just dread the 'Shane lasted 12 therefore he must have been better than people expected' dross. If Mayweather can't be arranged, Manny should quit. Otherwise he's gonna just keep fighting one-sided fights until HE'S the old man.

It wont be long before people start taking a very close look at Manny's record after Oscar. He now seems ready to fight JMM which imo happened 3 years too late. When will he fight a live opponent?

See, I'm of the opinion that all of his wins at the higher weights (135+) have SOME merit, simply based upon where Pacquiao started out. The problem I have is that there ARE a lot of mitigating factors, extenuating circumstances, asterisks...call them what we will. JMM is, in my opinion at least, being bullied almost in the sense that Arum knows how much Marquez wants the third fight. Perhaps bullied is too strong a word, but certainly having his arm twisted over terms.

I wonder after last night if Shane or someone around him, perhaps Richardson, will admit he's nothing left to offer boxing other than being a shot name for up-and-comers.

Its admirable based on the weight he came from. But when you have weight stips, beating guys coming off bad losses, fighting average fighters (in-house TR fights) for title belts you can see a pattern emerging.

He is a very good fighter. No doubt about that. An ATG? Not in my opinion he isn't. I seriously believe that if he fought Floyd, he will lose badly. I was going to say exposed but losing to a great fighter like Floyd is no shame.

As for SSM. He should have retired after the Mora fight. That showed he clearly had little to nothing left.

Alright Gents,

Watched the fight this morning. What a bore fest. Was disapointed in Manny's ability to hit the final killer blow, although i guess in part that was due to Mosley's defensive nature after getting floored.

Wasn't surprised by the UD. Could see it coming a mile off a few questions...

1) Did Mosely actually knock him down of did Manny slip?

2) Why did Sky refer to him as a 6 weight champion, but Jimmy Lennon called him and 8 weight champion?

King Beer wrote:Alright Gents,

Watched the fight this morning. What a bore fest. Was disapointed in Manny's ability to hit the final killer blow, although i guess in part that was due to Mosley's defensive nature after getting floored.

Wasn't surprised by the UD. Could see it coming a mile off a few questions...

1) Did Mosely actually knock him down of did Manny slip?

2) Why did Sky refer to him as a 6 weight champion, but Jimmy Lennon called him and 8 weight champion?

I dunno about #1, but #2 I think is maybe due to not all the 8 division belts being 'legit', ie not all the big 4/5.

Britain doesn't regonize the ring title as being an official world title

As for Pacquiao he is without any shadow of a doubt an all time great, it's all well and good saying there are question marks over a couple of his wins but saying he's not an ATG is going too far.

azania wrote:

andygf wrote:I have said it before. Moneybags is going to "do a Sugar Ray Leonard".
When the clamour for a match-up with Marvin Hagler PEAKED and most presumed it could never happen, Ray announced the fight.Unfortunately Marvellous had peaked too.Sugar got on his bike and sculpted a "Win" against a man who by rights should have won, but with his street smarts and the help of Old Father Time, and a fresher pair of legs than the more actively prizefighting Hagler.
On this evidence the big fight will happen, and I say it again, it will be an anti-climax. Mayweather all night long.Bye Manny, thanks for the memories.

Floyd is older than Manny. Even if they fought 2 years ago, Floyd's style is all wrong for Manny. Manny was very hesitant to let fly against SSM. Probably doe to SSM's counterpunching ability. Seeing as Floyd is far better in every department (except punch power) than SSM, I suspect Manny will be even more hesitant. Marquez has set the blueprint. Floyd will capitalise on that and blow him away by wide UD. Easy night for Floyd. I have never been sold on the Manny hype. Too many stipulations on his biggest wins.

Oh do me a favour! You simply cannot turn round after 1 below par performance and attempt to claim Manny Pacquaio, the greatest boxer (but not the most talented) of this generation, is some kind of hype job. You really are clueless!

King Beer wrote:
1) Did Mosely actually knock him down of did Manny slip?

It was a push KB although the ref gave it as a KD.
But from the judges scorecards they seemed to overrule it and gave that round to Manny.

Cheers Balti.

Would any of you say that Mosley's stock has fallen now or will he actually get credit for taking Manny the distance?

Fists of Fury wrote:

azania wrote:

andygf wrote:I have said it before. Moneybags is going to "do a Sugar Ray Leonard".
When the clamour for a match-up with Marvin Hagler PEAKED and most presumed it could never happen, Ray announced the fight.Unfortunately Marvellous had peaked too.Sugar got on his bike and sculpted a "Win" against a man who by rights should have won, but with his street smarts and the help of Old Father Time, and a fresher pair of legs than the more actively prizefighting Hagler.
On this evidence the big fight will happen, and I say it again, it will be an anti-climax. Mayweather all night long.Bye Manny, thanks for the memories.

Floyd is older than Manny. Even if they fought 2 years ago, Floyd's style is all wrong for Manny. Manny was very hesitant to let fly against SSM. Probably doe to SSM's counterpunching ability. Seeing as Floyd is far better in every department (except punch power) than SSM, I suspect Manny will be even more hesitant. Marquez has set the blueprint. Floyd will capitalise on that and blow him away by wide UD. Easy night for Floyd. I have never been sold on the Manny hype. Too many stipulations on his biggest wins.

Oh do me a favour! You simply cannot turn round after 1 below par performance and attempt to claim Manny Pacquaio, the greatest boxer (but not the most talented) of this generation, is some kind of hype job. You really are clueless!

While I think hype is maybe a tad harsh, it's not like it's JUST one fight though, is it? Diaz, Oscar, Clottey, Margarito and now Mosley are all better wins on paper than they are in reality.

King Beer wrote:Cheers Balti.

Would any of you say that Mosley's stock has fallen now or will he actually get credit for taking Manny the distance?

Did it have far to fall? Personally I think it's stayed where it was, at best.

BALTIMORA wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:

azania wrote:

andygf wrote:I have said it before. Moneybags is going to "do a Sugar Ray Leonard".
When the clamour for a match-up with Marvin Hagler PEAKED and most presumed it could never happen, Ray announced the fight.Unfortunately Marvellous had peaked too.Sugar got on his bike and sculpted a "Win" against a man who by rights should have won, but with his street smarts and the help of Old Father Time, and a fresher pair of legs than the more actively prizefighting Hagler.
On this evidence the big fight will happen, and I say it again, it will be an anti-climax. Mayweather all night long.Bye Manny, thanks for the memories.

Floyd is older than Manny. Even if they fought 2 years ago, Floyd's style is all wrong for Manny. Manny was very hesitant to let fly against SSM. Probably doe to SSM's counterpunching ability. Seeing as Floyd is far better in every department (except punch power) than SSM, I suspect Manny will be even more hesitant. Marquez has set the blueprint. Floyd will capitalise on that and blow him away by wide UD. Easy night for Floyd. I have never been sold on the Manny hype. Too many stipulations on his biggest wins.

Oh do me a favour! You simply cannot turn round after 1 below par performance and attempt to claim Manny Pacquaio, the greatest boxer (but not the most talented) of this generation, is some kind of hype job. You really are clueless!

While I think hype is maybe a tad harsh, it's not like it's JUST one fight though, is it? Diaz, Oscar, Clottey, Margarito and now Mosley are all better wins on paper than they are in reality.

And only a fool would have any of those in Manny's top 5 wins, so what's your point?

I watched the last 6 rounds, Mosely looked awful and Pac didn't seem too fussed to really press the action. Boring fight, I hope to god Arum doesn't serve up another dud fight with Pac, 3 in a row is enough.

BALTIMORA wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:

azania wrote:

andygf wrote:I have said it before. Moneybags is going to "do a Sugar Ray Leonard".
When the clamour for a match-up with Marvin Hagler PEAKED and most presumed it could never happen, Ray announced the fight.Unfortunately Marvellous had peaked too.Sugar got on his bike and sculpted a "Win" against a man who by rights should have won, but with his street smarts and the help of Old Father Time, and a fresher pair of legs than the more actively prizefighting Hagler.
On this evidence the big fight will happen, and I say it again, it will be an anti-climax. Mayweather all night long.Bye Manny, thanks for the memories.

Floyd is older than Manny. Even if they fought 2 years ago, Floyd's style is all wrong for Manny. Manny was very hesitant to let fly against SSM. Probably doe to SSM's counterpunching ability. Seeing as Floyd is far better in every department (except punch power) than SSM, I suspect Manny will be even more hesitant. Marquez has set the blueprint. Floyd will capitalise on that and blow him away by wide UD. Easy night for Floyd. I have never been sold on the Manny hype. Too many stipulations on his biggest wins.

Oh do me a favour! You simply cannot turn round after 1 below par performance and attempt to claim Manny Pacquaio, the greatest boxer (but not the most talented) of this generation, is some kind of hype job. You really are clueless!

While I think hype is maybe a tad harsh, it's not like it's JUST one fight though, is it? Diaz, Oscar, Clottey, Margarito and now Mosley are all better wins on paper than they are in reality.

Yeah of course Balti, but Oscar aside, I think they are only better on paper now because of the pure fact that Manny is so much better than them. Ok Diaz was poor anyway, and Clottey is a tough guy but never skilled enough to trouble Manny, but most of those guys are a tough nights work for anyone outside of Manny and Floyd, so it is inevitable that he is going to a) fight these people and b) beat them comprehensively, as otherwise it would just have to Manny vs Floyd every few months to have a half competitive fight. The two of them are simply too good for the rest of the field.

wow_junky wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:

azania wrote:

andygf wrote:I have said it before. Moneybags is going to "do a Sugar Ray Leonard".
When the clamour for a match-up with Marvin Hagler PEAKED and most presumed it could never happen, Ray announced the fight.Unfortunately Marvellous had peaked too.Sugar got on his bike and sculpted a "Win" against a man who by rights should have won, but with his street smarts and the help of Old Father Time, and a fresher pair of legs than the more actively prizefighting Hagler.
On this evidence the big fight will happen, and I say it again, it will be an anti-climax. Mayweather all night long.Bye Manny, thanks for the memories.

Floyd is older than Manny. Even if they fought 2 years ago, Floyd's style is all wrong for Manny. Manny was very hesitant to let fly against SSM. Probably doe to SSM's counterpunching ability. Seeing as Floyd is far better in every department (except punch power) than SSM, I suspect Manny will be even more hesitant. Marquez has set the blueprint. Floyd will capitalise on that and blow him away by wide UD. Easy night for Floyd. I have never been sold on the Manny hype. Too many stipulations on his biggest wins.

Oh do me a favour! You simply cannot turn round after 1 below par performance and attempt to claim Manny Pacquaio, the greatest boxer (but not the most talented) of this generation, is some kind of hype job. You really are clueless!

While I think hype is maybe a tad harsh, it's not like it's JUST one fight though, is it? Diaz, Oscar, Clottey, Margarito and now Mosley are all better wins on paper than they are in reality.

And only a fool would have any of those in Manny's top 5 wins, so what's your point?

When did I say I had them in my top five? If he'd stopped at 130/135 he'd have a fantastic career, but his exploits at the higher weights have some people acting like he's some kind of superhero. These wins seem to overshadow his earlier, better wins, simply because of the weight thing. That's my point. The hype has happened from lightweight upwards.

Ironically he's also only considered a four weight world champion in Japan for instance which is quite interesting to show how titles are viewed in different countries.

Have to say though WJ that pinpointing Pacmans top five wins isn't the easiest thing to do: Marquez, Barrera, Morales, Cotto and Hatton possibly?

BALTIMORA wrote:

King Beer wrote:Cheers Balti.

Would any of you say that Mosley's stock has fallen now or will he actually get credit for taking Manny the distance?

Did it have far to fall? Personally I think it's stayed where it was, at best.

Well, i kinda thought it was near the bottom, thought he might get a tiny bit of credit. More so for not ending the fight on his ass.

Fists of Fury wrote: Yeah of course Balti, but Oscar aside, I think they are only better on paper now because of the pure fact that Manny is so much better than them. Ok Diaz was poor anyway, and Clottey is a tough guy but never skilled enough to trouble Manny, but most of those guys are a tough nights work for anyone outside of Manny and Floyd, so it is inevitable that he is going to a) fight these people and b) beat them comprehensively, as otherwise it would just have to Manny vs Floyd every few months to have a half competitive fight. The two of them are simply too good for the rest of the field.

Those guys are all decent opponents, but it's the circumstances surrounding their selection as opponents which rankles with a lot of people.

Fists of Fury wrote:

azania wrote:

andygf wrote:I have said it before. Moneybags is going to "do a Sugar Ray Leonard".
When the clamour for a match-up with Marvin Hagler PEAKED and most presumed it could never happen, Ray announced the fight.Unfortunately Marvellous had peaked too.Sugar got on his bike and sculpted a "Win" against a man who by rights should have won, but with his street smarts and the help of Old Father Time, and a fresher pair of legs than the more actively prizefighting Hagler.
On this evidence the big fight will happen, and I say it again, it will be an anti-climax. Mayweather all night long.Bye Manny, thanks for the memories.

Floyd is older than Manny. Even if they fought 2 years ago, Floyd's style is all wrong for Manny. Manny was very hesitant to let fly against SSM. Probably doe to SSM's counterpunching ability. Seeing as Floyd is far better in every department (except punch power) than SSM, I suspect Manny will be even more hesitant. Marquez has set the blueprint. Floyd will capitalise on that and blow him away by wide UD. Easy night for Floyd. I have never been sold on the Manny hype. Too many stipulations on his biggest wins.

Oh do me a favour! You simply cannot turn round after 1 below par performance and attempt to claim Manny Pacquaio, the greatest boxer (but not the most talented) of this generation, is some kind of hype job. You really are clueless!

FoF

Its not just one below par performance. He has put on great performances. He is exciting to watch. But (that word) his opposition has either been sub-standard (coming off losses, lay-offs etc) or weight drained. For instance Cotto. If the 1lb didn't make a difference, why insist on it? It was there to give him an advantage.

For me he is a hype job. After the Oscar fight, a wonderful hype job was put into operation and it has worked. Put him in against a Judah now and he will lose imo. But they would rather Judah (or someone else) either is coming off a loss or a lay-off. The hype is because manny started at a low weight and fighting supposedly bigger guys. But once again look at the facts. He came in heavier against Oscar. The same weight against Hatton. The same weight against Cotto (I'm deliberately choosing the high profile fights here).

Look at his fights in the lower division also. The MAB and EM fights were coming off when they had fought each other to a standstill and like a vulture he picks off the pieces and claims to be their better. Furthermore, EM was seriously weight drained in their rematch and had nothing left.

Manny = excellent marketing and being at the right place at the right time.

BALTIMORA wrote:
When did I say I had them in my top five? If he'd stopped at 130/135 he'd have a fantastic career, but his exploits at the higher weights have some people acting like he's some kind of superhero. These wins seem to overshadow his earlier, better wins, simply because of the weight thing. That's my point. The hype has happened from lightweight upwards.

Umm, who exactly is hyping up his later career based on beating those guys? (apart from D4). The wins are nothing more than fights against divisional top 10 guys he was expected to beat (Oscar aside).

I see you missed off Cotto and Hatton, which is where Pac gets the majority of his credit from at higher weights. Cue some comments about Cotto being weight-drained / forced to fight at a catch weight and Hatton being shot....

BALTIMORA wrote:

Fists of Fury wrote:

azania wrote:

andygf wrote:I have said it before. Moneybags is going to "do a Sugar Ray Leonard".
When the clamour for a match-up with Marvin Hagler PEAKED and most presumed it could never happen, Ray announced the fight.Unfortunately Marvellous had peaked too.Sugar got on his bike and sculpted a "Win" against a man who by rights should have won, but with his street smarts and the help of Old Father Time, and a fresher pair of legs than the more actively prizefighting Hagler.
On this evidence the big fight will happen, and I say it again, it will be an anti-climax. Mayweather all night long.Bye Manny, thanks for the memories.

Floyd is older than Manny. Even if they fought 2 years ago, Floyd's style is all wrong for Manny. Manny was very hesitant to let fly against SSM. Probably doe to SSM's counterpunching ability. Seeing as Floyd is far better in every department (except punch power) than SSM, I suspect Manny will be even more hesitant. Marquez has set the blueprint. Floyd will capitalise on that and blow him away by wide UD. Easy night for Floyd. I have never been sold on the Manny hype. Too many stipulations on his biggest wins.

Oh do me a favour! You simply cannot turn round after 1 below par performance and attempt to claim Manny Pacquaio, the greatest boxer (but not the most talented) of this generation, is some kind of hype job. You really are clueless!

While I think hype is maybe a tad harsh, it's not like it's JUST one fight though, is it? Diaz, Oscar, Clottey, Margarito and now Mosley are all better wins on paper than they are in reality.

Spot on.

But facts are often harsh.

King Beer wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

King Beer wrote:Cheers Balti.

Would any of you say that Mosley's stock has fallen now or will he actually get credit for taking Manny the distance?

Did it have far to fall? Personally I think it's stayed where it was, at best.

Well, i kinda thought it was near the bottom, thought he might get a tiny bit of credit. More so for not ending the fight on his ass.

Maybe, but possibly not given the manner in which he managed to go the distance. If it'd been something like Morales the other week then we'd all be praising him.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Britain doesn't regonize the ring title as being an official world title

As for Pacquiao he is without any shadow of a doubt an all time great, it's all well and good saying there are question marks over a couple of his wins but saying he's not an ATG is going too far.

Maybe top 120 ATG.

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Britain doesn't regonize the ring title as being an official world title

As for Pacquiao he is without any shadow of a doubt an all time great, it's all well and good saying there are question marks over a couple of his wins but saying he's not an ATG is going too far.

Maybe top 120 ATG.

I'm fairly sure your P4P list would be much more of a shambles than this fight though.

The Mighty Atom wrote:Ironically he's also only considered a four weight world champion in Japan for instance which is quite interesting to show how titles are viewed in different countries.

Have to say though WJ that pinpointing Pacmans top five wins isn't the easiest thing to do: Marquez, Barrera, Morales, Cotto and Hatton possibly?

I would have them in this order;

1. Barrera 1
2. Cotto
3. Marquez (2 if you are going by the book, or 1 if you think 2 was a robbery!)
4. Morales 2
5. Hatton
6. Sasakul
7. Barrera 2
8. Ledwaba
9. Oscar
10. Morales 3

After the first 8 I think there are a lot of fights you could pick, but the top 8 are his "clear" best wins IMO.

As far the belt situation, Pac beat the best at fly, feather, super feather, light welter and arguably welter, so if you take out the belts he should probably be a 4 or 5 weight champ, but didn't get the chance at super bantam or lightweight to fight the top guy.

I'd go for Ledwaba as his best win. Coming in on very short notice and schooled an established champion.

BALTIMORA wrote:

King Beer wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:

King Beer wrote:Cheers Balti.

Would any of you say that Mosley's stock has fallen now or will he actually get credit for taking Manny the distance?

Did it have far to fall? Personally I think it's stayed where it was, at best.

Well, i kinda thought it was near the bottom, thought he might get a tiny bit of credit. More so for not ending the fight on his ass.

Maybe, but possibly not given the manner in which he managed to go the distance. If it'd been something like Morales the other week then we'd all be praising him.

Yeah that's what i thought.

Will that be the end of Mosley now? Who could he potentially face? I guess now this is out of the way the press will be clamouring all over the 'super' fight.

azania wrote:I'd go for Ledwaba as his best win. Coming in on very short notice and schooled an established champion.

Ledwaba was a good win, but Barrera 1 was clearly his best. Top 3 p4p, coming off an EPIC run of wins, and went on to unify at 130lb after losing to Pac.

Scottrf wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Britain doesn't regonize the ring title as being an official world title

As for Pacquiao he is without any shadow of a doubt an all time great, it's all well and good saying there are question marks over a couple of his wins but saying he's not an ATG is going too far.

Maybe top 120 ATG.

I'm fairly sure your P4P list would be much more of a shambles than this fight though.

To be the best you have to beat the best without question and/or stipulations. Manny got away from what Lennox didn't. Lennox fought and beat the best names when they were on the slide. People remember that. Those same poeple have chosen to forget that when he beat MAB and EM, they too were on the slide and in the case of EM, severely weight drained. EM's legs went after 10 rounds. Did his legs go after a far more brutal fight he had with MAB?

wow_junky wrote:

azania wrote:I'd go for Ledwaba as his best win. Coming in on very short notice and schooled an established champion.

Ledwaba was a good win, but Barrera 1 was clearly his best. Top 3 p4p, coming off an EPIC run of wins, and went on to unify at 130lb after losing to Pac.

HOw much did the series against EM take out of him. But yes it was a good win. Right place right time again.

azania wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Britain doesn't regonize the ring title as being an official world title

As for Pacquiao he is without any shadow of a doubt an all time great, it's all well and good saying there are question marks over a couple of his wins but saying he's not an ATG is going too far.

Maybe top 120 ATG.

I'm fairly sure your P4P list would be much more of a shambles than this fight though.

To be the best you have to beat the best without question and/or stipulations. Manny got away from what Lennox didn't. Lennox fought and beat the best names when they were on the slide. People remember that. Those same poeple have chosen to forget that when he beat MAB and EM, they too were on the slide and in the case of EM, severely weight drained. EM's legs went after 10 rounds. Did his legs go after a far more brutal fight he had with MAB?

.... or maybe Morales' legs went because he was fighting a BETTER fighter?

Please explain how Barrera was on the slide as well, I'm interested to know, considering he went on to UNIFY at 130lb and dropped razor thin decision (bs knockdown / deduction aside) to Marquez, a top 3 p4per.

wow_junky wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:
When did I say I had them in my top five? If he'd stopped at 130/135 he'd have a fantastic career, but his exploits at the higher weights have some people acting like he's some kind of superhero. These wins seem to overshadow his earlier, better wins, simply because of the weight thing. That's my point. The hype has happened from lightweight upwards.

Umm, who exactly is hyping up his later career based on beating those guys? (apart from D4). The wins are nothing more than fights against divisional top 10 guys he was expected to beat (Oscar aside).

I see you missed off Cotto and Hatton, which is where Pac gets the majority of his credit from at higher weights. Cue some comments about Cotto being weight-drained / forced to fight at a catch weight and Hatton being shot....

Yeah, I did miss those two off. That's because they're very good wins. Hatton was demolished so soon it wouldn't have made much difference what condition he was in, and I mean that as a compliment. Cotto was seen as a real threat, but while I personally don't think the weight stip made a difference to the outcome, I do believe that it was there for a reason.

If you're gonna put words in my mouth, at least try to get them right.

azania wrote:

wow_junky wrote:

azania wrote:I'd go for Ledwaba as his best win. Coming in on very short notice and schooled an established champion.

Ledwaba was a good win, but Barrera 1 was clearly his best. Top 3 p4p, coming off an EPIC run of wins, and went on to unify at 130lb after losing to Pac.

HOw much did the series against EM take out of him. But yes it was a good win. Right place right time again.

Not a lot, as my post above explains. You don't go on to unify a weight division and give Marquez one of his toughest fights if you are on the slide.

The fight being such a poor spectacle was due to Mosley being so negative. He was decent defensively, but it consisted of getting out of range which left no counterattacking opportunities. Even when Manny opened up in combinations, Shane just went backwards.

Too much touching of gloves, after every incident or near-incident.

Volume would have been the key, but it wasn't until Pacquiao got angry over the false KD that he made any effort to open up. Think he was respectful of Mosley's power.

I think the fight showed Mayweather is quicker in single shots. He could see Pacquiao's coming but not Mayweather's.

Clear push, but the officials shouldn't have ignored it on the scoring.

Let's not get too harsh over 1 poor fight against a negative opponent, which was almost a shutout. Shane moved a lot more than he did against Floyd. Very disappointed in Mosley, just happy to survive. Hope he retires, had enough of him after that.

BALTIMORA wrote:

wow_junky wrote:

BALTIMORA wrote:
When did I say I had them in my top five? If he'd stopped at 130/135 he'd have a fantastic career, but his exploits at the higher weights have some people acting like he's some kind of superhero. These wins seem to overshadow his earlier, better wins, simply because of the weight thing. That's my point. The hype has happened from lightweight upwards.

Umm, who exactly is hyping up his later career based on beating those guys? (apart from D4). The wins are nothing more than fights against divisional top 10 guys he was expected to beat (Oscar aside).

I see you missed off Cotto and Hatton, which is where Pac gets the majority of his credit from at higher weights. Cue some comments about Cotto being weight-drained / forced to fight at a catch weight and Hatton being shot....

Yeah, I did miss those two off. That's because they're very good wins. Hatton was demolished so soon it wouldn't have made much difference what condition he was in, and I mean that as a compliment. Cotto was seen as a real threat, but while I personally don't think the weight stip made a difference to the outcome, I do believe that it was there for a reason.

If you're gonna put words in my mouth, at least try to get them right.

So basically, your argument is that people are hyping Pac up for beating Diaz, Clottey, Margo, Mosely & Oscar?

Despite the fact that the majority of people give Pac kudos at the higher weights for the Cotto & Hatton wins, and not for the above mentioned wins?

Barrera 1 was a brilliant win no two ways about it, he went on to post 6 good wins in a row after that fight before losing to Marquez, he may have been past his absolute best but wasn't on a downward slide. Tend to agree to some extent about the Morales wins where the best version he faced he lost to and having seen him lose to Raheem it's impossible to suggest he was anywhere near his best, seemed to get old very very quickly.

It was Pacquiao's job to hunt Mosley down and take him out. The fact Mosley was using movement to offset Pacquiao's work is hardly a surprise. At nearly 40-years-old, Mosley is over-the-hill and came for the payday. So what if Mosley came to survive, I give him credit for lasting the distance and coming back from a heavy knockdown. In line with Froch-Dirrell, the onus was on Froch to pinpoint Dirrell - he, like Pacquiao, failed.

Pacquiao isn't unbeatable. Had Cotto fought a similar fight to Mosley he would have had more success because Cotto would have actually countered as opposed to just doing nothing like Mosley.

Pacquiao also has the style to cause Mayweather problems in line with Judah did. Pac-May looks like a 50/50 fight.

wow_junky wrote:

azania wrote:

Scottrf wrote:

azania wrote:

The Mighty Atom wrote:Britain doesn't regonize the ring title as being an official world title

As for Pacquiao he is without any shadow of a doubt an all time great, it's all well and good saying there are question marks over a couple of his wins but saying he's not an ATG is going too far.

Maybe top 120 ATG.

I'm fairly sure your P4P list would be much more of a shambles than this fight though.

To be the best you have to beat the best without question and/or stipulations. Manny got away from what Lennox didn't. Lennox fought and beat the best names when they were on the slide. People remember that. Those same poeple have chosen to forget that when he beat MAB and EM, they too were on the slide and in the case of EM, severely weight drained. EM's legs went after 10 rounds. Did his legs go after a far more brutal fight he had with MAB?

.... or maybe Morales' legs went because he was fighting a BETTER fighter?

Please explain how Barrera was on the slide as well, I'm interested to know, considering he went on to UNIFY at 130lb and dropped razor thin decision (bs knockdown / deduction aside) to Marquez, a top 3 p4per.

Thats the problem with Manny. Too many "but", "if", "maybe" what ifs" on his record to be considered a top flight ATG.

MAB was a superb fighter. It was a good win for Manny. But who knows what could have happened if they fought earlier. I'll find the link which states that EM was forced to take the rematch as he wanted to move up a division. Manny puller a Sugar Ray/Duran on him.

Wow junky-that's not my point in it's entirety. People just seem to be putting more stock in the size of a fighter than anything else. Haye beat Valuev, and he's big, but if Haye were to beat a 'prime' Ali, he'd rightly be given more credit.

DAVE667 wrote:Made me long for the heady days of Hopkins/Calzaghe!!!

Off to bed, no further comment to make on that snore-fest except to say that Mayweather should sign to fight Manny IMMEDIATELY

My thoughts exactly.
After watching Pac struggle at times to find a 39 year old Mosley, I really don't give Pac much of the chance against defensive master Floyd.

Was just like clottey fight. Mosley came to make his millions and not get knocked out. He was a punch bag. But this is why pacman stunk. Mosley just sitting on back foot, stinking up the fight.