England summer tour of Argentina - V2

First topic message reminder :

Cheers to all who posted on the first thread but having reached 1000 posts here's a second one for the remainder of the tour!

Link to the first thread - https://www.606v2.com/t42259-england-summer-tour-of-argentina

Link to the thread for 1st test - https://www.606v2.com/t45030-argentina-vs-england-810pm-ko

Let's hope for a game tonight that lives up to the promise of the players in each side.

nobbled - jobs for the boys. Rowntree knows Stevens from years back. Lydiate is the poster boy of Gatland. He'd have gone if he was permanently in crutches.

So, Twelvetrees has been called into the Lions - who's going to fill the gap.  Not heard anything about SL calling up a replacement for the England squad. 
When is the team announcement and when will the Argentinians name their side (more experienced or less)?

I would think that the side will look something like this -

Marler
Webber
Wilson
Attwood
Launchbury
Wood
Kvesick
Morgan
L.Dickson
F.Burns
Wade
Eastmond
Joseph
Foden
Brown

Bench -
PDJ, Thomas, Buchanan, Lawes, B.Vaunipola, Wigglesworth, Yarde

Id be looking for Lancs to pick

1 Marler
2 Webber
3 Wilson
4 LAunchbury
5 Attwood
6 Wood
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Dickson /Wiggles'h (last hurrah for both)
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Eastmond
13 Joseph
14 Wade
15 Foden / Brown

Still really struggling to fathom what Yarde has done to leapfrog Jonny May so convincingly.  Before the tour May should have been a definite starter.  He's been given 10 minutes at the end of the Barbarians game (at fullback - not his best position - and once the game had descended into a scrappy mess).  Then the game against the Consur XV where you can't judge a player in any way.  He's getting the Charlie Sharples treatment.  Maybe Lancaster was been teased by a Gloucester winger when he was at school.

I agree - I must admit that I forgot May.  I guess he could feature form the bench.
The problem is that Foden and Brown are both showing some real form at the moment.
Yarde took his chance well in the BaaBaas match.
Wade - well, everyone wants him in their team. 
So there is little space for May.  SL may give him his chance though in T2.  We will see - hopefully it will be announced in the next few hours.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Id be looking for Lancs to pick

1 Marler
2 Webber
3 Wilson
4 LAunchbury
5 Attwood
6 Wood
7 Kvesic
8 Morgan

9 Dickson /Wiggles'h (last hurrah for both)
10 Burns
11 Yarde
12 Eastmond
13 Joseph
14 Wade
15 Foden / Brown

I think that's what we'll see Geordie. I really think Launchbury needs a good long rest after this tour, he must have played a huge number of games for someone so young.

I think its down to balance again Jeffwinger.

With 36 out...its a lightweight midfield...so we must put a bit of beef somewhere.
Yarde might not be a lomu or such...but he gives us a bit more directness and power than May possible does.

Then its down to May v Wade. At the moment Wade is slightly ahead...so he gets the 14 spot.

But its a nice position to be in.

jeffwinger wrote:Still really struggling to fathom what Yarde has done to leapfrog Jonny May so convincingly.  Before the tour May should have been a definite starter.  He's been given 10 minutes at the end of the Barbarians game (at fullback - not his best position - and once the game had descended into a scrappy mess).  Then the game against the Consur XV where you can't judge a player in any way.  He's getting the Charlie Sharples treatment.  Maybe Lancaster was been teased by a Gloucester winger when he was at school.

I think May's been extremely unlucky. The problem he has I think is that he's slightly less prolific than Wade, and people are wary of picking two wingers who are quite small/slight. Yarde is a bit more of an all-rounder, he's not massive but he's big enough to truck it up if absolutely necessary. He also picks great lines. But I agree, he's not been a better player than May this year.

One thing about May i like is his feet. He's very nimble. I do wonder if Lancs and others see his acceleration and simply see him as a finisher, whereas I think he's a far more creative player than that.

It's great to see some English backs with pace, guile and in Wade and Eastmond's cases, good distribution and brains. The real test I think will be when they come up against a huge backline like Wales' - Wade may run rings around North, but when the boots on the other foot...gulp.

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think its down to balance again Jeffwinger.

With 36 out...its a lightweight midfield...so we must put a bit of beef somewhere.
Yarde might not be a lomu or such...but he gives us a bit more directness and power than May possible does.

Then its down to May v Wade. At the moment Wade is slightly ahead...so he gets the 14 spot.

But its a nice position to be in.

Geordie beat me to it!

Hood83 wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:I think its down to balance again Jeffwinger.

With 36 out...its a lightweight midfield...so we must put a bit of beef somewhere.
Yarde might not be a lomu or such...but he gives us a bit more directness and power than May possible does.

Then its down to May v Wade. At the moment Wade is slightly ahead...so he gets the 14 spot.

But its a nice position to be in.

Geordie beat me to it!

Likewise! It's that key phrase again. May will get his chance and much like Buchanan etc I think he's on tour for the experience of the training and to familiarise himself with the environment. 

I agree that he's a better winger going forward than Yarde, indeed some of the tries he's scored have been outrageous. I just don't think at the moment an international team can afford to be without a slightly more powerful player in the backs.

Good minds and all that mate  

If (as I hope) 36 and Tuilagi are our centres going forward that gives us more scope to play May and Wade on the wings.. Even then against the likes of North 

I understand that these will be the reasons given, but that doesn't make them correct.

In terms of try scoring, May scored 8 in 13 league matches this season, including a run of 8 in 9 following his return from injury in February.  This would have been 9 in 9 if he wasn't tripped over vs Worcester and a penalty try awarded instead.  5 of these 8 tries were against top 4 opposition.  There is absolutely no way on Earth that even dozy Lancaster could question these try scoring credentials.

In terms of the balance, i.e. wanting a biggun and a littlun together on the wings, Jonny May is 2kgs heavier than Yarde and his extra pace increases his power (F = M x A).  He isn't a George North style runner but he is a very powerful guy.  Tacklers regularly fall off him and I've never once thought he looked in any way lacking power.  The fact that he also has exceptionally quick feet doesn't mean he can't also be strong.  This is a bit of a theme in rugby commentary at the moment.  If a player is good at one thing, he must be poor somewhere else.  No one is allowed to be a strong all rounder apparently.  Well Jonny May is.

Sorry to bang on but this is a startling omission and yet more proof that the current management still need to pay a lot more attention to club rugby.

After seeing him in Round 22, I have been banging the drum for Yarde. He was excellent and the best display by a visiting winger to WR last season. I am convinced that if he had been in a decent team (or even playing for Wasps instead of Varndell) everyone else would be raving about him.

May can think himself unlucky, but Yarde will be seriously good.

jeffwinger wrote:I understand that these will be the reasons given, but that doesn't make them correct.

In terms of try scoring, May scored 8 in 13 league matches this season, including a run of 8 in 9 following his return from injury in February.  This would have been 9 in 9 if he wasn't tripped over vs Worcester and a penalty try awarded instead.  5 of these 8 tries were against top 4 opposition.  There is absolutely no way on Earth that even dozy Lancaster could question these try scoring credentials.

In terms of the balance, i.e. wanting a biggun and a littlun together on the wings, Jonny May is 2kgs heavier than Yarde and his extra pace increases his power (F = M x A).  He isn't a George North style runner but he is a very powerful guy.  Tacklers regularly fall off him and I've never once thought he looked in any way lacking power.  The fact that he also has exceptionally quick feet doesn't mean he can't also be strong.  This is a bit of a theme in rugby commentary at the moment.  If a player is good at one thing, he must be poor somewhere else.  No one is allowed to be a strong all rounder apparently.  Well Jonny May is.

Sorry to bang on but this is a startling omission and yet more proof that the current management still need to pay a lot more attention to club rugby.

All fair points, but I've never seen May bust it up the middle, perhaps because he doesn't need to. I'd rather have a team of players who target space rather than their opposite man, but with a solid wall in front of him (something likely at times at international level) I think Yarde is better at making yards - excuse the awful pun. I'd be very happy to see May and Wade play but I think they'd be better with a big pack and centres of 36 and Tuilagi, as someone else mentioned (provided Manu 'crowbar' Tuilagi can look up and pass once in a while)

You're right re one strength not being an indication of another weakness, but that has been a general problem for England in the backs (and to a lesser extent the forwards). We've been producing small creative players and big powerful ones, but never both. People will slate me for this but I don't believe Manu's skills-set is good enough for int. rugby at the moment. I think this is just as big an issue as May or Wade's lack of bulk.

Hood, May regularly takes a crash ball for Glaws on the inside shoulder of the 2nd receiver - he scored a great try against Saints in this manner, but didn't need to do much physical work for it as he was so fast he just brushed the defenders aside.  Watching him regularly I often comment about his surprising physicality for someone that looks slight, as he's pretty good at clearing out rucks and rarely fails to get beyond the gain line.

I do think May has been very unlucky.  He has a better strike record than Wade or Varndell in terms of tries per minutes played and as Jeff has said a number of those have been against top 4 opposition.  Nevertheless whilst he is unlucky Yarde is also an excellent player and either one of them was going to feel hard done by.  I do think it is a very positive sign when someone of May's ability can't make the starting lineup.  I do think it is only a matter of time before he does make the team.  Anyone capable of scoring a try like he did against Quins a year or so ago needs to be in the team as he's a genuine game changer.

Anyway, allowing for the standard of the opposition (we shouldnt get too ahead of ourselves) lancaster should have a few decisions on his hands come the Ai's

1) Should Hartley be out the squad altogether now...we have hookers coming through nicely now.

2) Should Barritt be dropped from the starting lineup for 36? Eastmonds performance this weekend will be VERY interesting if he starts at 12.

3) We CAN play two wingers...not two fb's and a winger. We have to utilise this crop of outstanding wingers coming through...Wade, Elliott, May, Yarde, Thompstone, Benjamin...i dont want to see Brown on the wing when we have those...

4) Is Tuilagi creative enough at 13...or will Tomkins progression be a major rival...likewise a rejuvanted Joseph at Bath...not too mention Lowe, Trinder etc...even banahan whos all round game conitnues to develope..ie his kicking etc.

5) Do we play Parling and Launchbury, or has Attwood put his hand in the picture.

6) Corbs and Vunipola...two Lions LH's...then Marler another nicely developing LH. Mullans move to Wasps could be interesting aswell.

7) Has Davy Wilsons rejuvenation brought him along enough to challenge Cole? Or is cole still ahead.

etc etc etc

I hope that the selection of real wingers and 36 continues to the AIs. Then we can start to actually have an attacking plan the revolves around something other than Manu bashing it up. With genuine running threats throughout the team I would hope we would then see the best of Manu as well. Admittedly we may learn that despite having the skills (I disagree with you there Hood) he does not have a rugby brain. then we would replace him with someone else.

For now I find the prospect of:

Youngs, Farrell, Yarde, 36, Manu, Wade, Brown starting and then people like Care, Burns, May/Foden coming on as legs tire quite exciting.

Plus we could see a revitalised Chris Ashton. Imaging his tracking runs when you have such running threats inside.

jeffwinger wrote:I understand that these will be the reasons given, but that doesn't make them correct.

In terms of try scoring, May scored 8 in 13 league matches this season, including a run of 8 in 9 following his return from injury in February.  This would have been 9 in 9 if he wasn't tripped over vs Worcester and a penalty try awarded instead.  5 of these 8 tries were against top 4 opposition.  There is absolutely no way on Earth that even dozy Lancaster could question these try scoring credentials.

In terms of the balance, i.e. wanting a biggun and a littlun together on the wings, Jonny May is 2kgs heavier than Yarde and his extra pace increases his power (F = M x A).  He isn't a George North style runner but he is a very powerful guy.  Tacklers regularly fall off him and I've never once thought he looked in any way lacking power.  The fact that he also has exceptionally quick feet doesn't mean he can't also be strong.  This is a bit of a theme in rugby commentary at the moment.  If a player is good at one thing, he must be poor somewhere else.  No one is allowed to be a strong all rounder apparently.  Well Jonny May is.

Sorry to bang on but this is a startling omission and yet more proof that the current management still need to pay a lot more attention to club rugby.

I'd have Mayon the bench covering wing, OC and FB. I would however be scared if he had to come on at 13 with Eastmond at 12 and Burns at 10!

What is worth saying about Manu is that we have had a year where (post Morgan's injury) our attacking threat has been reduced to him alone smashing it up the middle. Despite all the resulting attention he therefore gets he has still done a lot of damage, albeit less than we would have liked.

The idea of having a team which will force the opposition to mark him less closely, and also one that can run off his shoulder or effectively use him as a decoy is just fantastic

Genuinely didn't realise May is a bigger lad than Yarde, he is actually a pretty decent size for an international wing!

I look forward to Wade, May, Yarde and an on form (hopefully) Ashton competing for our wing slots then!

Wade is double marked in almost every AP match he plays. For a demonstration of what happens if you don't do this, watch the first half of Quins-Wasps at the Double Header last year. Lowe at wing didn't help of course...

Lost in Wales

Oh i agree...can you imagine him with space...when Morgan crashes through, Twelvetrees does his bit, Flood or Burns playmake, Wade makes his breaks, Foden / Brown come through...he could be a nightmare thought for the opposition...

I was merely saying...he options ie a potentially cultured Guscott esque runner in Joseph...

lostinwales wrote:What is worth saying about Manu is that we have had a year where (post Morgan's injury) our attacking threat has been reduced to him alone smashing it up the middle. Despite all the resulting attention he therefore gets he has still done a lot of damage, albeit less than we would have liked.

The idea of having a team which will force the opposition to mark him less closely, and also one that can run off his shoulder or effectively use him as a decoy is just fantastic

Factor in Croft running wide as well. Could be very handy if they play flat enough.

Well theres another dilema...Croft or Wood.

If we go Parling and Launchbury i might be inclined to go with Wood. But if we go Parling/Attwood or Launchbury/Attwood then id look to maybe play Croft

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well theres another dilema...Croft or Wood.

If we go Parling and Launchbury i might be inclined to go with Wood. But if we go Parling/Attwood or Launchbury/Attwood then id look to maybe play Croft

Both in the EPS, horses for Courses. It's the point of an EPS, to have  a squad of players who can all equally slip into the team as needed

Absolutely...

If like another poster said - Ashton regains his form then I'm not sure we can leave him out either!
inform Ashton on one side and Wade on the other......That's an interesting concept.
Contrasting styles too - Magic Wade to make the break and Ashton tracking all the time to punch through. 
Tasty.

I would like - NI team to look like this - (assuming all uninjured and inform). 
Corbis - Youngs - Cole
Launchbury - Parling
Wood - Robshaw
Morgan
B.Youngs
F.Burns
Ashton
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Wade
Brown

Bench -
M.Vaunipola-Webber-Wilson- Lawes-Croft-Care-Foden

You can have one more player on the bench, david, 23 men benches are the norm now

HongKongCherry wrote:Hood, May regularly takes a crash ball for Glaws on the inside shoulder of the 2nd receiver - he scored a great try against Saints in this manner, but didn't need to do much physical work for it as he was so fast he just brushed the defenders aside.  Watching him regularly I often comment about his surprising physicality for someone that looks slight, as he's pretty good at clearing out rucks and rarely fails to get beyond the gain line.

I do think May has been very unlucky.  He has a better strike record than Wade or Varndell in terms of tries per minutes played and as Jeff has said a number of those have been against top 4 opposition.  Nevertheless whilst he is unlucky Yarde is also an excellent player and either one of them was going to feel hard done by.  I do think it is a very positive sign when someone of May's ability can't make the starting lineup.  I do think it is only a matter of time before he does make the team.  Anyone capable of scoring a try like he did against Quins a year or so ago needs to be in the team as he's a genuine game changer.

Fair enough HKC, you see more of him so i'll defer to you guys on this. I certainly have no problem playing him, even with Wade. There's an argument that you have to try these things rather than simply pre-empt their failure. I definitely prefer a winger on the wing!

One other consideration is - is May a left winger? If so then he's even more unlucky, but if not, Yarde is I believe. I think the difference of a left and right wing position are often overlooked. They really do involve a different understanding of the play. Good point re the strength of players required to keep May out as well. We may find that none of these guys has the physicality required to play at international level, but at least we have options to try out.

Cheers CJ - always forget that!
Maybe stick Eastmond in there.

Foden and Eastmond between them pretty much cover all backs positions.

LondonTiger wrote:I hope that the selection of real wingers and 36 continues to the AIs. Then we can start to actually have an attacking plan the revolves around something other than Manu bashing it up. With genuine running threats throughout the team I would hope we would then see the best of Manu as well. Admittedly we may learn that despite having the skills (I disagree with you there Hood) he does not have a rugby brain. then we would replace him with someone else.

For now I find the prospect of:

Youngs, Farrell, Yarde, 36, Manu, Wade, Brown starting and then people like Care, Burns, May/Foden coming on as legs tire quite exciting.

Plus we could see a revitalised Chris Ashton. Imaging his tracking runs when you have such running threats inside.

I think maybe 'skills' is not right, my main question re Manu is his vision/decision making. His passing and off-loading looks OK to me, though no more than that, but his vision seems often lacking. His kicking game is also non-existent. Less of a problem for a 13 but i'd like to see him develop it.

Manu playing outside 36 with Wade outside him will find gaps somewhere. Lose a bit in defence with out Barritt though

The 23 man bench should be a MASSIVE advantage for us given our depth at LH. We need a gameplan that takes advantage of this. Preferably involving Mako coming on and punching holes in a tiring defence.

LT

Youngs, Farrell, Yarde, 36, Manu, Wade, Brown starting and then people like Care, Burns, May/Foden coming on as legs tire quite exciting.

I dont get excited by his inclusion....in fact id much rather have FLood. We need to use these players we have now...and Farrell just negates having them.

Likewise barritt must be moved on now. Thanks for your service...

Thing is GF, Farrell will be selected. With such talent around him I reckon he actually could become a decent puppet master.

Well id like to see it, and i appreciate he's a young lad but i just dont see it.

I think Sarries could strangle the life out of him like they have Barritt and make him a robot.

We dont need that. Personally i really hope Burns continues on...he looks the real deal to me.

Hood83 wrote:

HongKongCherry wrote:Hood, May regularly takes a crash ball for Glaws on the inside shoulder of the 2nd receiver - he scored a great try against Saints in this manner, but didn't need to do much physical work for it as he was so fast he just brushed the defenders aside.  Watching him regularly I often comment about his surprising physicality for someone that looks slight, as he's pretty good at clearing out rucks and rarely fails to get beyond the gain line.

I do think May has been very unlucky.  He has a better strike record than Wade or Varndell in terms of tries per minutes played and as Jeff has said a number of those have been against top 4 opposition.  Nevertheless whilst he is unlucky Yarde is also an excellent player and either one of them was going to feel hard done by.  I do think it is a very positive sign when someone of May's ability can't make the starting lineup.  I do think it is only a matter of time before he does make the team.  Anyone capable of scoring a try like he did against Quins a year or so ago needs to be in the team as he's a genuine game changer.

Fair enough HKC, you see more of him so i'll defer to you guys on this. I certainly have no problem playing him, even with Wade. There's an argument that you have to try these things rather than simply pre-empt their failure. I definitely prefer a winger on the wing!

One other consideration is - is May a left winger? If so then he's even more unlucky, but if not, Yarde is I believe. I think the difference of a left and right wing position are often overlooked. They really do involve a different understanding of the play. Good point re the strength of players required to keep May out as well. We may find that none of these guys has the physicality required to play at international level, but at least we have options to try out.

He can play both wings, but has played more on the left side.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Personally i really hope Burns continues on...he looks the real deal to me.

Let's hope so. On paper Gloucester really should be top four every year, but for some reason they just haven't kicked on. Maybe with the extra year's experience for Morgan, Burns and Twelvetrees they'll do it next season.

Add in Savage aswell, and i agree ThoH...they should be up there...see how they do this season.

Squad for Second Test

15. Mike Brown (Harlequins, 17 caps)
14. Christian Wade (Wasps, 1 cap)
13. Jonathan Joseph (London Irish, 5 caps)
12. Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby, 1 cap)
11. Marland Yarde (London Irish, uncapped)
10. Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby, 2 caps)
9. Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints, 8 caps)
1. Joe Marler (Harlequins, 11 caps)
2. Rob Webber (Bath Rugby, 4 caps)
3. David Wilson (Bath Rugby, 27 caps)
4. Joe Launchbury (London Wasps, 10 caps)
5. Dave Attwood (Bath Rugby, 3 caps)
6. Tom Wood (Northampton Saints, 19 caps, captain)
7. Matt Kvesic (Worcester Warriors, 1 cap)
8. Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby, 11 caps)
Replacements
16. David Paice (London Irish, 7 caps)
17. Paul Doran Jones (Northampton Saints, 5 caps)
18. Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks, 1 cap)
19. Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints, 21 caps)
20. Billy Vunipola (London Wasps, 1 cap)
21. Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens, 13 caps)
22. Stephen Myler (uncapped)
23. Ben Foden (Northampton Saints, 31 caps)

Once again, Paice is included. I don't know what to say, so here's a picture of a monkey .

Rest of the squad looks great.

Hood83 wrote:The 23 man bench should be a MASSIVE advantage for us given our depth at LH. We need a gameplan that takes advantage of this. Preferably involving Mako coming on and punching holes in a tiring defence.

Agreed there Hood, it gives us options more than anything. It doesn't just mean starting Corbs for the scrum and ground work then bringing Mako on when the defence is tiring, it also means that we could start Mako for his ball carrying and if the scrum struggles or the breakdown is being dominated (which would negate Mako's threat anyway) we can bring Corbs on to steady the ship. Good options to have.

Who gets the bench spot for the back row is an interesting one as well. With Wood/Croft competing for one place you'd expect it to be one of them but they don't offer much versatility - i.e. no cover for 8. Similarly Billy V offers little versatility but does negate the problem we'd have if Morgan got injured whereas Kvesic offers the versatility but isn't as established yet. Interesting times ahead!

Bit harsh of SL to deprive May of his first England cap. Is he the only touring squad member not to feature in either test?

Buchanan as well, at least May is excluded for Wade/Yarde/Foden. Buchanan is excluded for Paice!

I'm a big fan of May, I've been backing him getting capped for a couple of seasons and paired with Wade, but I really have no problems with Yarde getting the nod and can only assume those questioning him just haven't seen him play much.  Whenever I've seen Irish he's been a standout player, really industrious in all facets of the game, always looking for work coming off his wing, powerful, very rapid, good feet and a quality defender.  He hasn't racked up a huge amount of tries this season, but then given the level of problems in the Irish setup that's not surprising.  No other wing beat more defenders this season (yes even Wade, 50 in 19 games) and in a better side with a superior platform to perform on I have little doubt he would have scored a number more than he managed with Irish.

The other facet is that whatever we think of players' comparable abilities and how they've played in the recent past, the question is how they are performing currently and what they are looking like in training with the rest of the squad.

I wouldn't be at all surprised to see May preferred over Yarde in future England sides and I hope opportunities to prove himself come soon, but in what he offers and how he performed against the Barbarians I think Yarde has fully earned a starting spot at the weekend, real shame there wasn't a place for May on the bench though.

Really wanted to see May get a run out this game, and Buchanan too. We're going to need some big runners, and Buchanan is made for the contact. Paice is not.

Yeah im a little confused May is not even on the bench...and as for Paice..oh come on Lancaster WTF are you playing at.
What is too be achieved putting him there over Buchanan.

These are the little things that Lancs needs to sort out in his selection process.

Though he is improving as the rest of the squad is excellent and exactly as i wanted it.

I was sooo close - only Paice for Buchanan!

propdavid_london wrote:So, Twelvetrees has been called into the Lions - who's going to fill the gap.  Not heard anything about SL calling up a replacement for the England squad. 
When is the team announcement and when will the Argentinians name their side (more experienced or less)?

I would think that the side will look something like this -

Marler
Webber
Wilson
Attwood
Launchbury
Wood
Kvesick
Morgan
L.Dickson
F.Burns
Wade
Eastmond
Joseph
Foden
Brown

Bench -
PDJ, Thomas, Buchanan, Lawes, B.Vaunipola, Wigglesworth, Yarde