Murray on the Ranking System

First topic message reminder :

Murray has added his voice to criticisms of the ATP ranking, saying that it should copy golf's two-year system and pointing out that Nadal's ranking at #5 is proof of the deficiencies of the current system. He considers that it should be possible to be injured for 5 months as a top player and retain your ranking.

I agree that the result of Nadal being seeded #5 at Wimbledon may be a very nasty QF surprise for him or, perhaps more likely, for one of the current #1-#3 (which may be Murray's real beef), but it seems to me that in a game like tennis which is based so much on fitness, in which players have shorter careers, and which operates knock-out contests is suited to a shorter ranking base than golf in which careers are usually longer, form is far more fleeting, and the stroke-play competition format enables anyone to emerge from the pack and win one week without having to 'beat' their opponents 1-on-1 (let alone do that at all consistently) and fall back into the pack the next week. It is far more necessary to 'smooth' results over a period in order to identify the best golfer than with tennis - the best tennis player starts winning or going deep week-in, week-out and he soon shoots up the rankings deservedly so. Also, the details of golf rankings are far less important - their cut-offs that matter are top 40, 50, 60 and so on for entry into the more exclusive contests, there's no real significance between being #1 and #10 - and if there was we'd quickly notice the 'absurdity' of seedings which would put X above Y despite the fact that X had done nothing for 12-18 months.

Anyway - this utterance puts one of the board members in a nasty dilemma - Murray's utterances are scanned and parsed with great care to identify the downside - what will said board member say about this interjection, which supports the position of the messiah?

The Special Juan wrote:

Red wrote:If they do meet in the QF, I will queue from the day before the ensure I can see the match.
I will do my best to ensure that Nadal feels well supported, while Murray less so. Last time the Fed fans managed to do a great job in the O2, it's time for the Nadal fans to step it up at Wimbledon.

Firstly of course, I'll keep on shouting 'Cmon Tim' that could make Murray annoyed. 'Vamos Rafa' isn't really annoying enough, so it'll have to be 'Vamos Rafael Nadal Parera', that could get under his skin.
Also if the crowd are getting too much in Murray's favour, and I can't down them out, I will get a Scottish flag with a picture of Alex Salmoned so the English section of the crowd remember Murray's WC quote and go back to supporting Rafito.

Or you will find yourself being beaten up because they will think you are a Pro-Independence Scot?

I recognise that this will be a risky approach.

@Eman... thanks for hacking into my account.

@Lydian.. Just had a cup of tea. I am good.

@HB... See Eman's confession.

@JHM... I gave myself a warning.

@Red... I am in a bubble too.

Seriously, regarding protected rankings...

A player may petition the Executive Chairman & President for an Entry Protection when he is physically injured and does not compete in any tennis event for a minimum period of six months. The written petition must be received within six months of his last tournament.

http://www.atpworldtour.com/Rankings/Rankings-FAQ.aspx#protected

Red wrote:

hawkeye wrote:bogbrush. It's difficult to figure out what Murray is saying. But I'm sure he must realize that meeting Nadal in the quarters at Wimbledon would in all probability mean a big loss of points, an end to his Wimbledon prospects and a drop from the number two position.

??
Murray is favourite for that match.

Murray, for all his skills and his success last year at Wimbledon, has never beaten Rafa on grass (or Clay)

I don't agree with Andy here but do feel what he said today was not really that controversial. He basically says he prefers the golf ranking system worked on a two-year basis, points out that Rafa merits a higher ranking and that is about it. He isn't vociferously critical of the current system so no big deal in my opinion.

hawkeye wrote:bogbrush. It's difficult to figure out what Murray is saying. But I'm sure he must realize that meeting Nadal in the quarters at Wimbledon would in all probability mean a big loss of points, an end to his Wimbledon prospects and a drop from the number two position.

And we're off!! Not only is it amazing how Andy's considered support of Nadal, where he merely compared tennis with the golf system, could result in this 'hostile' thread - but it's even more outlandish how HE can always find a negative with any Murray stance

Incidentally HE, it's two years since they met on grass and nearly two since they last met - since then Andy's become a subtly different player

Can someone show me where he actually said that the golf system should be 'copied'?

banbrotam wrote:Can someone show me where he actually said that the golf system should be 'copied'?

Probably not, because I don't think he did.

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Red wrote:

hawkeye wrote:bogbrush. It's difficult to figure out what Murray is saying. But I'm sure he must realize that meeting Nadal in the quarters at Wimbledon would in all probability mean a big loss of points, an end to his Wimbledon prospects and a drop from the number two position.

??
Murray is favourite for that match.

Murray, for all his skills and his success last year at Wimbledon, has never beaten Rafa on grass (or Clay)

Don't understand your point. Are we (yet again) basing the chances of a match on what happened two years ago?

Do you really think that Andy's great performances at The Olympics and even the Wimby final have no positive impact?

Is the fact that Nadal can't compete before Wimbledon, not a factor?

No of course not - let's base our evaluation on data from a time when both players were in different phases of their careers

JuliusHMarx wrote:

banbrotam wrote:Can someone show me where he actually said that the golf system should be 'copied'?

Probably not, because I don't think he did.

So why does this article have this line in it... "Murray has added his voice to criticisms of the ATP ranking, saying that it should copy golf's two-year system"

With it been the dependable barrystar writing this - I naturally assume that Andy must have said this

All I see is someone being sympathetic to a rival

The press seem to be interpreting it in the same way as barrystar, but as you say, if you simply read the quotes, it doesn't necessarily come across that way.
Hard to be certain.

banbrotam wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Red wrote:

hawkeye wrote:bogbrush. It's difficult to figure out what Murray is saying. But I'm sure he must realize that meeting Nadal in the quarters at Wimbledon would in all probability mean a big loss of points, an end to his Wimbledon prospects and a drop from the number two position.

??
Murray is favourite for that match.

Murray, for all his skills and his success last year at Wimbledon, has never beaten Rafa on grass (or Clay)

Don't understand your point. Are we (yet again) basing the chances of a match on what happened two years ago?

Do you really think that Andy's great performances at The Olympics and even the Wimby final have no positive impact?

Is the fact that Nadal can't compete before Wimbledon, not a factor?

No of course not - let's base our evaluation on data from a time when both players were in different phases of their careers

Murray might be favourite for that match, but I don't think he will see himself as favourite and so the slightly exaggerated and biased point made by Hawkeye still counts- Murray would not want Rafa as his opponent at any point in the draw, it is a particularly bad match up for him, worse than any of the top 4 and so he will particularly be upset at the thought of playing Rafa in the QFs. As will Fed and Ferrer and I'm sure Rafa won't be too happy about playing a possible 3 of the big 4 on his way to the Final, should he make it that far! The fact that Murray is the favourite doesn't alter his potential subconscious or conscious motives for wanting a different ranking, especially of Nadal, in Wimbledon. HE might have been making a Murray disparaging point but that doesn't make it wrong

ChequeredJersey wrote:[Murray would not want Rafa as his opponent at any point in the draw, it is a particularly bad match up for him, worse than any of the top 4 and so he will particularly be upset at the thought of playing Rafa in the QFs

I think you assume that just because you think it would be bad for him, then he must think the same. Champions, as Andy now is - don't really think that way

Andy has said that he always relishes playing Rafa, simply because he knows he can beat him - he has done so twice at a Slam and that was when Rafa was somewhere near his peak in 2008 and 2010

Whilst I by no means make him the favourite, I'm a bit perplexed by why anyone would think his comments were made because of a fear of facing Nadal in the QF

Lest we forget, Rafa has knee problems. If Wimby ends up having the faster conditons, i.e. of last year rather than the previous three, then Andy becomes the favourite

As with all the main four, there are mere margins between then - hence none of them will relish playing all of their rivals, as could happen

Arguably the person with the biggest disadvantage, is Rafa - because the odds are 3:1 against him avoiding a QF with one of them. With the others it's 3:1 for them avoiding Rafa

Indeed, my only issue is Andy not being seeded No.3 and hence not having the opportunity of facing Nadal having had a potential QF slugfest with Novak

I think Murray would prefer to face any of the players 5-8 than Nadal in the quarters.

Fair enough. He's still the player Murray has the poorest record against in the top 5 and the only one he's never beaten on grass, though. I hope they do play, it'd be great tennis to see in a QF

Banbrotam, those 2008 and 2010 wins for me are clearly skewed.

In 2008 by USO Nadal was completely worn out...he'd won RG, Wimb, Canada Masters , Cincy semis then Olympic Games Gold.

In 2010, he withdrew from the match part way through due to bad knees.

What about 2011 where Nadal beat Murray at RG, Wimb then USO?

banbrotam wrote:

ChequeredJersey wrote:

Red wrote:

hawkeye wrote:bogbrush. It's difficult to figure out what Murray is saying. But I'm sure he must realize that meeting Nadal in the quarters at Wimbledon would in all probability mean a big loss of points, an end to his Wimbledon prospects and a drop from the number two position.

??
Murray is favourite for that match.

Murray, for all his skills and his success last year at Wimbledon, has never beaten Rafa on grass (or Clay)

Don't understand your point. Are we (yet again) basing the chances of a match on what happened two years ago?

Do you really think that Andy's great performances at The Olympics and even the Wimby final have no positive impact?

Is the fact that Nadal can't compete before Wimbledon, not a factor?

No of course not - let's base our evaluation on data from a time when both players were in different phases of their careers

No Murray's performance against Federer last year has no bearing on his chances of beating Nadal. The only way to judge is how they have matched up in the past and their present form. Murray's recent form has not been good. He has suffered a few early losses and had to withdraw from Rome and RG with a chronic back injury. Hardly the ideal preparation for Wimbledon. In contrast Nadal will be full of confidence from his excellent achievements since returning. It's not injury that has prevented him from playing a warm up tournament but a sensible decision. The last thing he needs in preparation is yet another full week of match play. The same precaution that Federer took in 2009 when he completed the RG, Wimbledon double. You know I feel a bit mean pointing this out to you so harshly as I know how much you would like a Murray win...

I do agree with you in that I don't see anything in Murray's quotes that indicate he is asking for a two year ranking system.

lydian wrote:Banbrotam, those 2008 and 2010 wins for me are clearly skewed.

In 2008 by USO Nadal was completely worn out...he'd won RG, Wimb, Canada Masters , Cincy semis then Olympic Games Gold.

In 2010, he withdrew from the match part way through due to bad knees.

What about 2011 where Nadal beat Murray at RG, Wimb then USO?

More importantly ALL of Murray's wins against Nadal have been on HC

Not only that but I'll stick my neck out and say he's only had 1 true win over Nadal - Canada 2010.
Otherwise, US 2008 - knackered as discussed, Rotterdam 2009 - Nadal was almost literally on 1 leg in the final, AO10 - Nadal withdrew due to bad knees, Tokyo2011 - completely knackered after burnout season vs Djokovic (both basically disappeared after USO11). Nadal completely has Murray's number.

We can't count Nadal's 2011 win in Monte Carlo then, cos I think Murray had a wrist injury.

Fine, whatever. You play devils advocate well Red...

lydian wrote:Fine, whatever. You play devils advocate well Red...

If you are not fit for purpose, then tough. Ranking is a barometer of how good you can play tennis combined with how you can last the tour out playing competitively.

Having 5/6 months out is a choice decision anyway, and picking up an injury that puts you out for that long just shows you are operating above your limits.

Falling over and ripping a tendon off the pelvis is your fault, buy some better footing.
Ripping a tendon off your wrist is your fault, you're not holding the racquet properly, get a better coach.
Ripping your shorts in half is your fault, stop wearing tight knickers or wearing them down fiddling with their elasticity.

lydian wrote:Banbrotam, those 2008 and 2010 wins for me are clearly skewed.

In 2008 by USO Nadal was completely worn out...he'd won RG, Wimb, Canada Masters , Cincy semis then Olympic Games Gold.

In 2010, he withdrew from the match part way through due to bad knees.

What about 2011 where Nadal beat Murray at RG, Wimb then USO?

I love the way, where we'll create reasons for Murray's wins but never Nadal's Not that I would make any excuses for Murray's defeats.

Sorry, I've never bought the 2008 'excuse' - nobody gave Murray a prayer before the game.

And it's about time Murray was given credit for the fantastic two sets he had against him at Aus 10', where he simply ran Nadal ragged and then Nadal got injured.

I'm not ignoring the 2011 defeats - but once again we have a kind of refusal to accept that Murray's game has improved significantly since then. Has Rafa's? If his knees up to it, why pull out of Halle? Has he now decided to go for more power to shorten the rallies, if so doesn't this play into Murray's hands on grass if the conditions are quick? Are we ignoring the the fact that Andy has either improved his result or stayed the same every year? Are we ignoring what confidence he will feel after last year?

I'm sorry, but there are too many questions for both players, for it to be a case of Rafa merely turning up and Andy running scared

I'm simply saying that like all the main four, it's too close to call at Wimbledon

lydian wrote:Not only that but I'll stick my neck out and say he's only had 1 true win over Nadal - Canada 2010.
Otherwise, US 2008 - knackered as discussed, Rotterdam 2009 - Nadal was almost literally on 1 leg in the final, AO10 - Nadal withdrew due to bad knees, Tokyo2011 - completely knackered after burnout season vs Djokovic (both basically disappeared after USO11). Nadal completely has Murray's number.

Behave Lydian - you're sounding like HE.

Has someone hacked your account

I'll give you Rotterdam, which I've agreed with in the past, but the rest stretches the excuse category a little.

I think you're being a bit harsh there Lydian, but agree it would be an uphill battle for Murray against Nadal. I'm not in the banbrotam camp of optimistic Murray supporter ( though other than bantrotam, the main person on this thread bigging up Murray's chances against Nadal is Red!).

So I'd love Nadal to be in the other half of the draw with Djokovic, but the draw will be the draw and there's nothing to be done about - if Murray & Nadal do end up meeting at some point, he can only try to implement well the tactics that have worked for patches against Nadal before and hope for the best.

Do you see any difference in Nadal's chances if the roof comes in to play much?

Red wrote:I think Murray would prefer to face any of the players 5-8 than Nadal in the quarters.

Who wouldn't?

What's your point?

Do you think Rafa would also rather play any of those ranked 6, 7 & 8, rather than Andy?

Oh I forget!! Rafa would rather play one of the others rather than a player who's reached the last three slam finals he's entered and The Olympics and how gave him a final set bagel the last time we met

It's either Novak or Andy - the disrespect to one or both at any given time, never ceases to amaze me!!

My point is Banb, in that case (if we do saw Murray would prefer playing numbers 5-8 rather than Nadal), it would be better for him, if Nadal was ranked number 4.

Lydian- I think you're being a bit unfair with your Murray-Nadal analysis, I know in AO 2010 he withdrew, but USO 2008 I can't remember any particular physical problems.
Also Andy may have new tactics against Rafa, remember he has the slam monkey of his back, and Lendl may have thought of something. Murray's FH is also bigger I feel than it was before- it will be harder for Rafa to break that down.

YvonneT wrote:Do you see any difference in Nadal's chances if the roof comes in to play much?

Yes. They reduce if playing Andy or Roger. Incidentally my optimism is based on where we are with the current state of the players - not on what has gone on in the past

For instance, the other week I tipped Del Potro to beat Andy - which given the way some people study form on these boards was obviously a ridiculous thing to do

One caveat I'll give myself - I'm assuming that Andy has fully recovered from a back problem he's had for 18 months

Red wrote:My point is Banb, in that case (if we do saw Murray would prefer playing numbers 5-8 rather than Nadal), it would be better for him, if Nadal was ranked number 4.

Lydian- I think you're being a bit unfair with your Murray-Nadal analysis, I know in AO 2010 he withdrew, but USO 2008 I can't remember any particular physical problems.
Also Andy may have new tactics against Rafa, remember he has the slam monkey of his back, and Lendl may have thought of something. Murray's FH is also bigger I feel than it was before- it will be harder for Rafa to break that down.

Oh, I agree with your first point. But my assertion is that none of the four want to play all of the three others - each would privately consider it a nightmare

The withdrawal in 2010 was down to the great play of Andy in a performance that I thought better than 2008.

I'm sure Rafa is unimpressed at people assuming that each of his slam defeats have been down to either a GOAT, injury or being tired after a Novak slugfest

One of the reasons that Rafa has such a fantastic Head to Head (see HE's article) is because he is such a dominant physical specimen in matches which eventually often takes it's toll - i.e. it's feast or famine. So we have to accept the defeats for what they are, a result of the massive strain he puts on his body

I can see the excuses now - Rafa loses in the QF and it'll be because of being tired after the French

banbrotam wrote:

YvonneT wrote:Do you see any difference in Nadal's chances if the roof comes in to play much?

Yes. They reduce if playing Andy or Roger. Incidentally my optimism is based on where we are with the current state of the players - not on what has gone on in the past

For instance, the other week I tipped Del Potro to beat Andy - which given the way some people study form on these boards was obviously a ridiculous thing to do

One caveat I'll give myself - I'm assuming that Andy has fully recovered from a back problem he's had for 18 months

Back problems are chronic, he won't have fully recovered, but he's rested it sensibly so it'll probably be as good as it ever will be and won't be more than an annoyance

If this were on HC I'd being backing Novak and Murray to beat Rafa as easily as is possible against Rafa. But it's Wimbledon so I think he has a slight edge over either here. He's most likely to lose, IMO, just before the QFs as he is as vulnerable as ever to big hitters

lydian wrote:Banbrotam, those 2008 and 2010 wins for me are clearly skewed.

In 2008 by USO Nadal was completely worn out...he'd won RG, Wimb, Canada Masters , Cincy semis then Olympic Games Gold.

In 2010, he withdrew from the match part way through due to bad knees.

What about 2011 where Nadal beat Murray at RG, Wimb then USO?

Ummmmm welll Murray was....Let me get back to you on that!

In all seriousness I doubt anyone wants to play Nadal in his current form, however I am sure Nadal is praying for much more hotter conditions because if it is like what we are seeing at Queens with the surface being slippery and the ball having some zip and conditions being cool and cloudy, then Nadal for all his retrieving skills might find himself a bit vulnerable.

Hotter conditions at Wimbledon usually mean significantly faster - which for me puts Murray and Federer more as the favourite

We forget that Rafa had some pretty cool / wet conditions when he had his 2008-11 'dominance'

Last year was slightly faster, i.e. slightly nearer to the 'old' Wimby conditions

The weather, as we saw in the final last year, will play a big part - given the closeness of all four

I do like the idea that Rafa in 2008 was too tired. At that time, that was his best ever result in a hard court slam. Murray had shown in Canada a couple of months before that he could beat Nadal - Rafa was doing no more than hang on in that match until Murray injured his knee near the end of the first set.

After that win, Murray beat Rafa in Abu Dhabi, was wiinning relatively easily in Rotterdam until distracted by Rafa's injury and only lost in IW in his first tournament back from illness and in a gale! Indeed, Rafa didn't get another proper hard court win against him until the end of 2010!

Hopefully, Andy will recall the Tokyo match next time they play not the way he threw away the Wim SF in 2011. He is a bad match up for Rafa and needs to treat him with far less respect than he has in the past.

Actually if we're going to do injuries between Murray and Nadal, one to think about is Monte Carlo 2011 when Murray completely schooled Nadal in the 2nd set and then couldn't compete in the final set after picking up an injury (can't recall what).

I can hardly recall Nadal being so comprehensively outplayed on clay as that, it was as big as the 1st set Djokovic put on him the other month.

Disappointing bs from Murray, I was already indifferent to him if he continues like this then I'll actually start to dislike him.

I see no reason whatsoever for a 2 year ranking system. Tennis is too fast moving a sport for that. Look at someone like Don Young - got himself up to about 30 in the world in 2011. Was then dreadful last year but remained highly ranked for most of it because of his results in late 2011. On a 2 year system he would still have those points. It makes more sensr in golf where careers are much longer and players tend to have more up and down results due to the nature of the sport.

I can see why an injury prone player like Murray would support it. However, it is not the way forwards.

Murray was very much more aggressive in the 2008 USO semi than he was during 2009/2010 - he really took his game to Nadal.  I appreciate that Nadal may well have been fatigued after a great summer, but as someone has pointed out, it was at that point the best showing he had had at USO.

Murray almost seemed to try and emulate Rafa's game in 2009 at the expense of his own style.

break_in_the_fifth wrote:Disappointing bs from Murray, I was already indifferent to him if he continues like this then I'll actually start to dislike him.

If you can tell me what exactly he said, other than be supportive to Nadal's predicament I might join you 

I'm still waiting for where he said that Tennis should follow golf's system. Comparing the two is not the same

Eh? Murray's just missed his first slam since 2007 and hasn't  missed an event due to injury since 2009

And can you tell me where he's supporting it?

So we've got a misguided idea of his injury record and a misinterpretation of his comments!!

lydian wrote:Not only that but I'll stick my neck out and say he's only had 1 true win over Nadal - Canada 2010.
Otherwise, US 2008 - knackered as discussed, Rotterdam 2009 - Nadal was almost literally on 1 leg in the final, AO10 - Nadal withdrew due to bad knees, Tokyo2011 - completely knackered after burnout season vs Djokovic (both basically disappeared after USO11). Nadal completely has Murray's number.

This is just nonsense, some of those excuses are embarrasing.

I'll stick my neck out and say fanboyism.

However I'll give you credit for leaving out an excuse that Nadal himself put forward once - heatstroke. IIRC it was after losing in Miami or perhaps IW in 2011.. but then again that was after losing to Djokovic.

emancipator wrote:

lydian wrote:Not only that but I'll stick my neck out and say he's only had 1 true win over Nadal - Canada 2010.
Otherwise, US 2008 - knackered as discussed, Rotterdam 2009 - Nadal was almost literally on 1 leg in the final, AO10 - Nadal withdrew due to bad knees, Tokyo2011 - completely knackered after burnout season vs Djokovic (both basically disappeared after USO11). Nadal completely has Murray's number.

This is just nonsense, some of those excuses are embarrasing.

I'll stick my neck out and say fanboyism.

And I'll second it... because that's exactly what it is.  Also, fitness is a part of tennis.  Consistency is a part of tennis.  If Nadal couldn't stand up to the test, that's HIS fault.  Funny how there's always an excuse for Nadal.

Emancipator, I've had quite enough negativity from you for one day, ok? It's not a case of lightening up or being tired. I have an opinion, you have an opinion. If you disagree then be cogent about it, I don't need to be called a fanboy, or floundering, etc, for the umpteenth time by you or anybody else. You seem to have changed the past 2-3 days, shame but don't expect me to see you in the same light again either.

Murray is hardly being altruistic by talking about Nadal possibly being seeded 5th at Wimbledon. He is just thinking about himself

Andy Murray has hit out at the rankings system which could see him need to beat Rafa Nadal, Roger Federer AND Novak Djokovic to win Wimbledon next month.
Despite winning the French Open for the eighth time, the Spanish superstar Nadal slipped down to No.5 in the rankings on Monday - behind David Ferrer, the man he beat in straight sets in the Paris final the day before.
Nadal’s ranking has suffered because he missed seven months with a knee injury after losing in the second round at Wimbledon last year.
It means world No.2 Murray faces the nightmare possibility of playing the Mallorcan, then seven-time champion Federer in the semis and No 1 Djokovic in the final if he is to triumph in his home Grand Slam.

lydian wrote:Emancipator, I've had quite enough negativity from you for one day, ok? It's not a case of lightening up or being tired. I have an opinion, you have an opinion. If you disagree then be cogent about it, I don't need to be called a fanboy, or floundering, etc, for the umpteenth time by you or anybody else. You seem to have changed the past 2-3 days, shame but don't expect me to see you in the same light again either.

Always the same really, out and out nasty aggression followed by some smiley faces.

hawkeye wrote:Murray is hardly being altruistic by talking about Nadal possibly being seeded 5th at Wimbledon. He is just thinking about himself

Andy Murray has hit out at the rankings system which could see him need to beat Rafa Nadal, Roger Federer AND Novak Djokovic to win Wimbledon next month.
Despite winning the French Open for the eighth time, the Spanish superstar Nadal slipped down to No.5 in the rankings on Monday - behind David Ferrer, the man he beat in straight sets in the Paris final the day before.
Nadal’s ranking has suffered because he missed seven months with a knee injury after losing in the second round at Wimbledon last year.
It means world No.2 Murray faces the nightmare possibility of playing the Mallorcan, then seven-time champion Federer in the semis and No 1 Djokovic in the final if he is to triumph in his home Grand Slam.

http://www.mirror.co.uk/sport/tennis/wimbledon-andy-murray-faces-nightmare-1944624

I wonder if his squeals will make any difference? When do the rankings come out?

Maybe Murray is being altruistic?? 
How do you know what's in his head?

For crying out loud. Nadal's defeats and reasoning is fanboyism and what about the bad back of Federer which seems to be used for every defeat since 2007. If that isn't fanboyism then what is?

Let's just agree to disagree

I never understand why Nadals 'exhausted' excuse is common opinion when he loses towards the end of the year, but Federer has had just as long and tough seasons as Rafa but his losses aren't attributed to that. How often has Nadal played more matches in a season than Federer since 05? Surely can't be that often? 

Rotterdam 09 was a bizarre match, there were 7 consecutive breaks of serve or something in the 2nd set as BOTH players were struggling, Murray was struggling with his ankle that match as well so both were just cracking the ball to keep the points short. 

Aussie Open Rafa said he only started feeling pain at the end of the tiebreak, maybe he should have given Murray the satisfaction of ending the match like he did for Ferrer a year later was only like 3 games I think. 

My point is you can look at so many matches with rose tinted glasses, I know there are some people who think that Federer has only truly beaten Nadal once as well. Wimbledon 2007, all the other wins Rafa was tired, injured or "very young and nervous" after his Wimbledon '06 win

CAS wrote:I know there are some people who think that Federer has only truly beaten Nadal once as well. Wimbledon 2007, all the other wins Rafa was tired, injured or "very young and nervous" after his Wimbledon '06 win

Who thinks that lol