Salta 2009 - where are they know?

I always like the England tour in a Lions year, because shorn of our best players it gives us an opportunity to look at some of our fringe options. The guys definitely took their chance in Salta last Saturday, storming to a 32-3 win with Ben Morgan, Billy Twelvetrees and Christian Wade (on debut) putting in particularly impressive showings. There's now a great hope that these players, and others on tour, can force their way into the team for the Autumn Internationals.

4 years ago, during the Lions tour of South Africa, England played a home and away series against Argentina, culminating in a 24-22 defeat in Salta, albeit to a much stronger Argentina side than the one they faced last week. What I thought would be of interest was to look at the starting line-up from that day and see how those players had progressed, and then possibly draw conclusions on what to expect from this year's group.

1. Tim Payne - Started in this test match because Andrew Sheridan was off on the Lions tour, Tim Payne actually became a Lion himself that year, being called up to cover Gethin Jenkins injury and playing against the Emerging Springboks. Payne featured in the 2010 Six Nations for England, but hasn't featured since. At 34 years old, his International career is over in all but name.

2. Dylan Hartley - what to say about this man? Another who got his chance due to a Lions call-up for Lee Mears this time (the two games against Argentina were his first starts), Hartley has become a fixture in the England side in recent years gaining 43 caps and captaining them last summer against South Africa. The man would currently be on a Lions tour if he hadn't been sent off and subsequently suspended for swearing at Wayne Barnes in the Premiership Final. It is likely Hartley will win more caps for England, but some now have him third in the pecking order behind Lion Tom Youngs and the impressive Rob Webber. Quite some fall from grace in 12 months.

3. Julian White - With Phil Vickery called up for the Lions and Matt Stevens 5 months into a 2-year suspension, the ever reliable Julian White was called upon to anchor the scrum from tight-head. This was his 51st and final appearance for England, although he has since played a game against England for the Barbarians.

4. Steve Borthwick (C) - Captain fantastic wasn't chosen to go on the Lions tour, so instead he lead England on their summer tour. Borthwick didn't last much longer in England colours, injury in a 15-15 draw with Scotland in the 2010 Six Nations ruled him out of the tournament and the Australia tour and was never picked against by Johnson or Lancaster. Borthwick still regularly turns out for Saracens, but is unlikely to add to his tally of 57 England caps.

5. Louis Deacon - This series marked Deacon's first caps since the 2007 Six Nations, as Simon Shaw was off with the Lions. Deacon really took his chance and started all the subsequent Autumn Internationals and 2010 Six Nations games, before injury lost him his first team place. He was selected for the 2011 Rugby World Cup, but has never featured for Stuart Lancaster. Another who is unlikely to add to his cap tally.

6. Chris Robshaw - This was actually Chris Robshaw's first England cap and, although he had to wait a long time for his second one, he was awarded that and the captaincy for the 2012 Six Nations opener. Robshaw has since gone on to accumulate 17 test caps, however having been snubbed by Gatland with the Lions, Robshaw was one of several senior players rested by Stuart Lancaster for the 2013 Argentina tour. With Croft playing for the Lions and Wood captaining England, it could be hard to see where Robshaw fits back into the England side if those two play well. The emergence of Matt Kvesic on this tour further complicates matters. 

7. Steffon Armitage - A second flanker who didn't really fit in with Johnson's plans, it is astounding that this man has only managed 5 international caps in his career. His career under Johnson didn't take off and he moved to Toulon where he has found a new lease of life and is winning accolades left, right and centre. However, with the RFU's policy on overseas players he is yet to feature under Lancaster and it appears unlikely that he will add to his 5 caps, even though he is only 27 and has plenty of playing time left.

8. Nick Easter - the polar opposite to Chris Robshaw, this man definitely did feature in Martin Johnson's plans and played all the way up to the World Cup 2011. The (alleged) comment after the France defeat, however, seemed to sour many people's opinions of Nick Easter and he hasn't featured under Lancaster, even though with hindsight a call-up in the most recent Six Nations may have been preferable to playing Tom Wood at 8 (and Lawes at 6). Still playing well for Quins, at 34 he is unlikely to add to his 47 England caps, especially with Morgan and Billy Vunipola coming through nicely.

9. Danny Care - Care had been competing with Harry Ellis for the number 9 shirt, but a Lions call-up for Ellis put Care in pole position to start these games. Ellis was injured in the following season, and Care competed with Paul Hodgson for the shirt, before the emergence of Ben Youngs in 2010 launched a 3 year battle between the two for the starting place. Care however missed the 2011 World Cup with injuries, then off-field controversies didn't help early in 2012 and he wasn't considered for the 2012 Six Nations. Care has since got himself back on track, back into the EPS but is sitting behind Youngs in the pecking order. Youngs himself was selected for the Lions tour, with Care missing out. Care is another senior player, like Robshaw, who has been rested for this tour.

10. Andy Goode - Martin Johnson brought his old clubmate back into the England fold in 2009 for the Six Nations, and Goode was a surprise inclusion to start the tournament. Toby Flood won his place back before the end of the tournament, only to be injured towards the end of the season. Andy Goode was therefore the default choice to start this series, although he hasn't been capped since. At 33 years of age he's just agreed a move to Wasps, but is unlikely to play for England again.

11. Matt Banahan - His first two caps were this game and the game before, Matt started with 2 tries in 2 games and got to 3 in 5 by the end of the 2009 Autumn Internationals. However he only managed one further try in his subsequent 11 appearances, in his first start at centre against Samoa. Taken to the World Cup as someone who could cover 11, 12, 13, 14, there were always questions as to whether he could consistently take apart International defences, and despite his physical attributes he has yet to appear under Stuart Lancaster.

12. Tom May - Tom May won 2 caps, both of which came in this series. Not a vintage time for English centres and the incumbent 12, New Zealand-born Riki Flutey, was off with the Lions. A solid club pro, but nothing more, the former Newcastle man has since had stints with Toulon and Northampton.

13. Dan Hipkiss - Dan Hipkiss earned his first caps in 2007, featuring in the England team that went all the way to the final, however Tindall and Noon were preferred on their return to fitness. Hipkiss got a few chances in an England shirt, but it's safe to say his greatest moments came in the green, red and white of Leicester, scoring a dramatic winning try against Saracens in 2010. The last of his 13 caps came in the 2009 Autumn Internationals against New Zealand.

14. Mark Cueto - A test Lion in 2005, Mark Cueto was not picked by McGeechan and co for the 2009 tour, so filled in with England. Cueto was another Johnson favourite, who played all the way up to the 2011 Rugby World Cup. However, he's another one who has yet to feature under Lancaster, and is unlikely to add to his 55 England caps or his 20 England tries. However, Cueto did become the all-time top Premiership try scorer in February this year, scoring his 76th Premiership try in a narrow win over Exeter.

15. Delon Armitage - Armitage famously started Johnson's first game in charge in the 2008 Autumn Internationals, despite not being named in either of Johnson's Senior EPS or Saxon's squads. Armitage looked at home in an International shirt, and only the form and ability of Lee Byrne and Rob Kearney saw Armitage touring South America and not South Africa in the summer of 2009. Armitage, however, fell behind Ben Foden in the 2010 Six Nations and subsequently struggled to regain the starting 15 shirt. 5 suspensions in 2011 didn't help, receiving an 8-week ban for pushing a doping officer in January, a ban for striking Stephen Myler in a Premiership game, a 1 match ban for a high tackle on Chris Patterson and two concurrent bans of 5 weeks and 3 weeks for a high tackle and a knee drop in the same game against Bath. The final straw appeared to have been an arrest after a Saxons game. A subsequent move to Toulon has seen Armitage's chances of an international return diminish to zero, although on the positive side for him he has just scored a winning try in a Heineken Cup final (and incurred more hatred by celebrating on the way to scoring it).

Of the bench, David Wilson has actually made this same tour 4 years on and James Haskell hasn't been considered on medical grounds. Chuter, Kay, P. Hodgson and Vesty are done in an England shirt, but a move to Leicester seems to have revitalised Mathew Tait, who will be looking to push on and win further England honours.

So of the starting 15:

1 players was selected for the Lions tour (and subsequently missed it due to suspension) (Hartley)
2 players were unlucky to miss out on the Lions tour and have been rested for England's tour (Robshaw, Care)
0 players have been retained by England for this tour
2 players are playing well enough to be worthy of England consideration (in my opinion), but have hurt their chances by playing in France (Steffon and Delon Armitage) - note, whether they would have been selected or not is another matter
10 players are nowhere near England selection (Payne, White, Borthwick, Deacon, Easter, Goode, Banahan, May, Hipkiss, Cueto)

Hopefully the 15 that played this year will fair better! For reference they were:

Marler, Webber, Wilson, Launchberry, Attwood, Wood (C), Kvesic, Morgan, Dickson, Burns, Strettle, Twelvetrees, Joseph, Wade, Foden.

Twelvetrees appears to have already taken the Tim Payne role of being called straight from Argentina to a Lions tour!

What about Yalta 1945?

Where are they now?

There's a pretty good reason why Hipkiss won't be picked for England again: He's retired with injury...

Julian White is on the farm, too...

I would like to think at least 10 of those players would still be in the england setup 4 years from now

Mate,
That is a terrific read!  Very well done.  A mate the other day was mentioning it would be worth charting the changes in the England squad over the last few years.  And here you did it.  I suppose you work for News Corp. and tapped into our phone conversation!

In hindsight, that England squad is a strange mix of players.  A few young up-and-comers mixed with a number of veterans.  Going from a young Hartley and Robshaw to Julian White, who was old enough to be Simon Shaw's father, methinks.  Also with the benefit of hindsight, that was not a great England team, especially with the Lions away.  

With the current England squad in Argentina, there is no parallel with many of the players in the 2009 squad.  Only the few younger players. 

Great stuff.