Ok so which Lions failed to make an impression today?

by winchester Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:02 pm

Hibbard - looked shaky when he came on with his lineout throwing. I think Youngs test spot looks secure.
Heaslip - possibly played himself out of a test spot. Quiet game and cost a try with poor control frm the base of the scrum. Falateua has a real opportunity now.
Kearney - just back from injury but will be lucky to even make the bench.
Warburton - solid game but I still feel if he wasnt captain then the 7 jersey should be going elsewhere.

On the plus side, I think we have our tight 5 for the test. Backline worked well with Philips, Sexton, Halfpenny cementing starting places.

Thoughts?

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:06 pm

Farrell? Well he's certainly mae an impression this tour, but its not exactly a positive one.

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:10 pm

15 Halfpenny
14 Alex Cuthbert
13 Bod / VICE CAPTAIN
12 Roberts
11 North
10 Sexton
9 Mike Phillips
8 Heaslip
7 Tipuric
6 Sean O'Brien
5 Richie Grey
4 POC / CAPTAIN
3 Adam Jones
2 Hibbard
1 Mako Vunipola

16 Hogg
17 Jonathan Davies
18 Conor Murray
19 Warburton
20 Alun Wyn Jones
21 Corbeserio
22 Youngs
23 Matt Stevens

The team picks itself for me to be honest.

by Looseheaded Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:13 pm

Shifty did you really just pick Matt Stevens ahead of Dan Cole or was that some kind of hilarious and disgusting joke?

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:15 pm

Matt Stevens over Dan Cole....????

by winchester Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:16 pm

Alun Wynn Jones was immense today. Himself and POC were fantastic. I would stick with that.

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:19 pm

maestegmafia wrote:Matt Stevens over Dan Cole....????

If Matt Stevens isn't in the squad how can we make sniffing white line jokes when he collapses the scrums? Ok so which Lions failed to make an impression today? 3933776953

Ok so which Lions failed to make an impression today? 3933776953

by Standulstermen Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:19 pm

Really not sure how Heaslip was poor. He won at least three turnovers that I saw and carried/tackled well. For my money he is a cert at this point. Faletau has disappointed me.

I worry about Adam jones as well. He definitely starts for me but he is very lazy at ruck time. Not in the sense that he puts himself about but more he could be pinged because he does it going off his feet all the time. Another ref could ping him mercilessly. He stills starts and busts his balls for 50-60mins for me

by Looseheaded Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:21 pm

also maitland has been a waste on this tour, Best has almost justified his omission, hogg hasn't been overly impressive unfortunately and matt stevens has done what we alll expected of him... sweet f all

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:22 pm

Just how many times has Adam Jones given away a penalty this tour compared with other props? I think a fair few less, as well as making a lot of tackles and putting himself about a bit at ruck time.

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:23 pm

Improved their chances
Jonathan Davies
Alun Wyn Jones
Sam Warburton
Leigh Halfpenny (not that he needed it)
Tom Youngs

Worsened their chances
Sean Maitland

Nobody else did anything serious enough to hinder their chances overall

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:26 pm

Aelandor wrote:Just how many times has Adam Jones given away a penalty this tour compared with other props? I think a fair few less, as well as making a lot of tackles and putting himself about a bit at ruck time.

I know scary isn't it?
At the Ospreys all he normally does is scrum, I have no idea where this sudden burst of energy has come from, on this tour he has even added running to his repertoire of talents. It;s plain silly normally he has bandages round his ankles and up to his knees before kick off, half the time he looks like Humpty Dumpty before kick off!

by Standulstermen Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:27 pm

Aelandor wrote:Just how many times has Adam Jones given away a penalty this tour compared with other props? I think a fair few less, as well as making a lot of tackles and putting himself about a bit at ruck time.

The problem isn't his work rate or effort. He is still my pick. His ruck work is there but mostly it involves going of his feet. I rate him I just worry we are going to get a ref that's going to slam him for it. I don't think any other TH has done enough to put significant pressure on him. Clear starter, but just I would like to see him stay on his feet more at ruck time.

by jelly Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:27 pm

Overall a very good performance today. Thought Maitland may have cost himself a chance of a test spot with a poor missed tackle for their first try and little in attack. The fact that the line out worked until Hibbard came on (and I know it was one throw and it was the only one that went to the back all game) may mean they stick with Croft and Youngs. Still think it is telling that Croft has played in both the tough games, with Warburton, which suggests to me that Gatland has those two pencilled in at 6 and 7.

Thought the subs did fine, nothing spectacular but fine. Farrell passed the ball crisply and looks much more confident, no doubt much to the disappointment of those who seem determined to criticise him no matter what.

Revelation for me was Davies, thought he was excellent and deserves to start though I don't think he will. Think Gatland will prefer a power runner at 12 (Roberts, if fit, then Manu, if fit and possibly even Twelvetrees) but he had a great game.

Also impressed with Halfpenny and he has cemented his place, if it was ever in any doubt. Good defence, joined the line well and got all his kicks.

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:29 pm

Shifty wrote:
Aelandor wrote:Just how many times has Adam Jones given away a penalty this tour compared with other props? I think a fair few less, as well as making a lot of tackles and putting himself about a bit at ruck time.

I know scary isn't it?
At the Ospreys all he normally does is scrum, I have no idea where this sudden burst of energy has come from, on this tour he has even added running to his repertoire of talents. It;s plain silly normally he has bandages round his ankles and up to his knees before kick off, half the time he looks like Humpty Dumpty before kick off!

He made about 12 tackles against Scotland in the 6Ns, think he was Wales second top tackler that game

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:31 pm

wales606 wrote:He made about 12 tackles against Scotland in the 6Ns, think he was Wales second top tackler that game

He is a big bloke mate, he was in the way that's all. thumbsup

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:37 pm

jelly wrote wrote:
"Thought the subs did fine, nothing spectacular but fine. Farrell passed the ball crisply and looks much more confident, no doubt much to the disappointment of those who seem determined to criticise him no matter what."

Were you watching the game? When were Farrell's "crisp" passes? Were they the ones quickly shipped on to whoever was next to him, or the ones aimed at no-one in particular? Also the confidence to chip ahead when there was a huge overlap? Not to mention the pinpoint kicks directly to the opposition and the powderpuff tackling. Please keep Sexton fit, or have Hogg, 12trees or anyone else on the bench to cover OH in the tests.

by irnbrew Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:45 pm

Jelly Croft did,nt play against the Reds with Warby it was Lydiate Croft played against the Force without Warby so that theory not right

by sirtidychris Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:54 pm

Roberts looks like he's out, Davies was immense but bod has a better rep so will start. With tuilagi likely at ic because of his physicality, poc and alun wyn will start as gray is nursing an injury, and they played awesome. Youngs is in better form than Phillips but once again Phillips will start, Maitland looks average, in hindsight there were better alternatives to tour. Halfpenny is the best fullback in the world at the moment, zebo was epic and its a straight shoot out between him and Cuthbert zebos flexibility will probably see him on the bench. Farrell is a goon and looks like a yellow card waiting to happen, he can kick his goals though. Hope sexton stays fit and a genuine fly half repaces Roberts, my shout would be burns or flood. Croft scored his way into the starting line up, Warburton was solid if not great , but again will start, o Brien will bench beacuse of his flexibility. Youngs nailed the starting hooker Jersey Hibbard has got the throwing tips.

by westisbest Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:57 pm

Also Youngs am sure will be the replacement sh.

Murray will start tuesday?

by fa0019 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 2:58 pm

Vunipola looked good in attack but in the scrum he looked a little off. He will play better players next week.

For me we won't win the game if we have vunipolas running but we may lose it if we don't get scrum dominance... We need to put that backrow on the backfoot.

I'd start with corbisiero for that reason. He's the better player overall and does his basics well... Everything else is a bonus.

Same thing happened in 05 with Shane Bryne and 09 with lee mears. Basics first or our series chances will go.

by maestegmafia Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:01 pm

agree with you fa

though id like to see grant play first, corbs is not at his best yet

by glamorganalun Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:13 pm

I have to laugh Hibbard misses one throw if it was his fault at the back of the line out with all the subs on and Youngs is nailed on test starter. The same goes for Farrell it is not easy coming on late with all the subs on trying to make an impact, Sexton came on as a sub for his first game and he did nt look great.

I think Hibbard may start as he is much bigger than Youngs and he is a big ball carrier and he is big in the contact area which was lacking today.

Some suggest Manu and 12 Trees are ahead of JD2 are mad, they have hardly played. JD2 must give Gatland a nice problem as he is the best centre on tour at the moment and Roberts again outstanding in defence. BOD has been playing very well against the weak teams to look after him, is that a risk?

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:22 pm

I think that who starts the first test will depend on Gatlands selection process. If it is going to be on form then JD2 must start, The front row will be MV, AJ and one out of RH and TY. " 2nd row a bit tricky, 2 from RG, POC and AWJ. Back row is the one area where you can take your pick, virtually any 3 will do fine. Scrum half MP, Out half JS (or anyone except OF). Centres, at the moment I'd pick JD2 and BOD. Halfpenny at Fullback. The wings are a bit trickier at the moment, GN and TB would be my first choice, but Injuries will play a big part, so its whovers left standing.

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:33 pm

glamorganalun wrote:I think Hibbard may start as he is much bigger than Youngs and he is a big ball carrier and he is big in the contact area which was lacking today.

He's also a psycho and with Adam Jones at 3, you know the scrum is going to be solid. Hibbard is basically in the Garin Jenkins mold but he doesn't throw as many punches.

by jelly Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:43 pm

Fair enough irnbrew - ignore me!

As for those who can't stand anyone to give Farrell credit, give the kid a break. You sound incredibly bitter with your increasingly biased, personal attacks and it completely devalues any other analysis you may make of the games. He did just fine when he came on today. He nearly created a try with that kick, you have no idea what would have happened if he's passed it along the line. If Sexton gets injured at any point, he will be fine to come on just as he was fine when he helped England win 5 games in a row, including against the best side in the world.

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:04 pm

I really don't understand those who say Farrell is only criticized by people who dislike him. I have no opinion of what he's like, but I have watched him play a number of times. I really want to know what he did in the last 20 minutes of todays game to deserve credit? Butchering an overlap? mis-throwing a large number of passes? Kicking directly to the opposition? Well I suppose the positives were he didn't drop any passes to him and he did kick a pretty good conversion. I'm sorry but I expect a little more from a LIONS outside half. I know he's young, but if he was just Saracens OH that would be fine. Its also not because he's English, Charlie Hodgson has shown the way at Sarries and Freddie Burns looked a class above for England against the Ba-Bas and Argentina. I would much rather have FB as back up to Sexton on the tour.

I do wonder at those people who continue to defend him despite the evidence of their own eyes on the tele.

by jelly Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:09 pm

So Owen Gatland, Stuart Lancaster, whoever nominates the world player of the year, the Sarries coaches etc etc are all wrong but you, maesteg and one or two others on here are right. He is useless and has no right to even lace the boots of Biggar, Priestland, Hook or whichever Welshman you wanted picked ahead of him.

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:12 pm

The decision has been made, Farrell is the other flyhalf on tour

When playing well his is an international standard player and I will trust in Gatland et al's decisions.

All the Lions player are quality internationals, that's the whole point. None of the home unions would turn down one of these Lions for their international squad.

by jelly Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:13 pm

wales606 wrote:The decision has been made, Farrell is the other flyhalf on tour

When playing well his is an international standard player and I will trust in Gatland et al's decisions.

All the Lions player are quality internationals, that's the whole point. None of the home unions would turn down one of these Lions for their international squad.

+1

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:17 pm

I'm only calling what I saw in the game today. As I've said before its not a nationalistic thing. I'd rather Burns or Flood to be there. Also Biggar or Madigan, but that's just my opinion, which is what this forum is supposed to be for.

by wales606 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:20 pm

When it comes to the Lions you cannot take the risk and have inexperience at 10

Madigan, Burns and Biggar all have very little international experience - only this year really.

Short of calling Stephen Jones out of retirement, there was not many options

This was why Wilkinson was so talked about, even though he is lacking in large parts of his game these day

by Hood83 Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:55 pm

AelandorI really don't understand those who say Farrell is only criticized by people who dislike him. I have no opinion of what he's like, but I have watched him play a number of times. I really want to know what he did in the last 20 minutes of todays game to deserve credit? Butchering an overlap? mis-throwing a large number of passes? Kicking directly to the opposition? Well I suppose the positives were he didn't drop any passes to him and he did kick a pretty good conversion. I'm sorry but I expect a little more from a LIONS outside half. I know he's young, but if he was just Saracens OH that would be fine. Its also not because he's English, Charlie Hodgson has shown the way at Sarries and Freddie Burns looked a class above for England against the Ba-Bas and Argentina. I would much rather have FB as back up to Sexton on the tour.

I do wonder at those people who continue to defend him despite the evidence of their own eyes on the tele.

I'm no Farrell apologist, but I honestly have no idea what game you watched. For me, he plays too far behind the gainline. Today, he still did this, but miss-throwing a large number of passes? - 0 is not a large number is it? I genuinely cannot remember a single one. I did see him fizz (not something I'd associate with him) a number to the next receiver, far quicker and flatter than i've seen from him. In plenty of cases these guys were MILES behind the gainline, and despite Farrell being a little too deep, there was no reason for them to be that far back.

I could be wrong on the cross-kick, it may have just been a poor choice, but the Tahs defence was blitzing rapidly in the 10/12 channel so he may have picked the best option.

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 5:09 pm

At least 3 passes from him went to ground, and I don't mean dropped by the intended receiver. The cross kick to Zebo was decided on by Farrell long before he got the ball and there was a big overlap, just watch it again. The other guys are probably behind the gainline because they've got used to playing with OF and know what he's normally going to do, i.e. kick it to one of the opposition back 3. (He did that at least 3 times today).

by thomh Sat 15 Jun 2013, 5:27 pm

glamorganalun wrote:I have to laugh Hibbard misses one throw if it was his fault at the back of the line out with all the subs on and Youngs is nailed on test starter.

It's not the one throw - his throwing has been a bit off in every game. Despite historically having had problems with his throwing, Youngs has been the most consistent hooker on the tour.

by R!skysports Sat 15 Jun 2013, 5:35 pm

Roberts. Felt he was very poor again. Rain into contact and stopped dead each time. Dropped the ball several times (like he did in the last game) and generally did not do much

Wurbarton. Did ver little again

Mainland did not seem to be that bothered

by captain carrantuohil Sat 15 Jun 2013, 5:38 pm

Must agree that while Tom Youngs wouldn't have been my Test selection before the tour got underway, he is at the moment. Playing very well in most departments, to my eye, and I would guess that he's in pole position just now.

by nathan Sat 15 Jun 2013, 5:55 pm

thomh wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:I have to laugh Hibbard misses one throw if it was his fault at the back of the line out with all the subs on and Youngs is nailed on test starter.

It's not the one throw - his throwing has been a bit off in every game. Despite historically having had problems with his throwing, Youngs has been the most consistent hooker on the tour.

Also youngs carrying and clearing out the ducks has been better than Hibbards. Shame blues has been banned as this would be killing him!

by nathan Sat 15 Jun 2013, 5:57 pm

Aelandor wrote:At least 3 passes from him went to ground, and I don't mean dropped by the intended receiver. The cross kick to Zebo was decided on by Farrell long before he got the ball and there was a big overlap, just watch it again. The other guys are probably behind the gainline because they've got used to playing with OF and know what he's normally going to do, i.e. kick it to one of the opposition back 3. (He did that at least 3 times today).

I'm just watching it now, only seen one ball the hit the ground yet it still got to a lions player. Its starting to get a bit boring reading the same drivel on these forums from certain posters.

by Exiledinborders Sat 15 Jun 2013, 6:09 pm

I thought the only Lion who was poor was Maitland. Poor in both attack and defence. To be honest none of he wing on tour other than Youngs have looked great. No a position of great strength for Lions.

by nathan Sat 15 Jun 2013, 6:10 pm

18:10:21

Exiledinborders wrote:I thought the only Lion who was poor was Maitland. Poor in both attack and defence. To be honest none of he wing on tour other than Youngs have looked great. No a position of great strength for Lions.

18:10:23

Young on the wing?

by glamorganalun Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:05 pm

No that was Croft on the wing

by Allty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 7:54 pm

[quote="winchester"]Hibbard - looked shaky when he came on with his lineout throwing. I think Youngs test spot looks secure.
Heaslip - possibly played himself out of a test spot. Quiet game and cost a try with poor control frm the base of the scrum. Falateua has a real opportunity now.
Kearney - just back from injury but will be lucky to even make the bench.
Warburton - solid game but I still feel if he wasnt captain then the 7 jersey should be going elsewhere.

On the plus side, I think we have our tight 5 for the test. Backline worked well with Philips, Sexton, Halfpenny cementing starting places.

Thoughts?

__________________

Maitland is not test material,

[/quote]

by Exiledinborders Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:00 pm

nathan wrote:18:10:21
Exiledinborders wrote:I thought the only Lion who was poor was Maitland. Poor in both attack and defence. To be honest none of he wing on tour other than Youngs have looked great. No a position of great strength for Lions.
18:10:23

Young on the wing?

That should have said North.

by bedfordwelsh Sat 15 Jun 2013, 8:08 pm

Shifty wrote:
23 Matt Stevens

The team picks itself for me to be honest.

Really are you serious, Jones and Cole will start and bench between them no other serious contenders

by Metal Tiger Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:10 pm

I'm not convinced that Adam Jones is nailed on as others think. Scrummaging aside I have always thought his mobility & work rate around the park, especially at the break down was a lot less than other props on the tour.

However, I thought he was far better today, putting in a good shift with some nice hits. Although I did think he was lucky not to be pinged today as he went off his feet a lot at the ruck.

by bedfordwelsh Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:18 pm

Tiger,

I think its a close call between him and Cole with Jones just edging it, that said don't think Cole done anything when he came on but in his defence with mass changes all at once like that its always going to be difficult.

by doctor_grey Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:09 am

nathan wrote:
Aelandor wrote:At least 3 passes from him went to ground, and I don't mean dropped by the intended receiver. The cross kick to Zebo was decided on by Farrell long before he got the ball and there was a big overlap, just watch it again. The other guys are probably behind the gainline because they've got used to playing with OF and know what he's normally going to do, i.e. kick it to one of the opposition back 3. (He did that at least 3 times today).

I'm just watching it now, only seen one ball the hit the ground yet it still got to a lions player. Its starting to get a bit boring reading the same drivel on these forums from certain posters.

Nathan,
I just watched again and focused on Farrell. I'm with you that I saw only the one pass hit the ground and, indeed, it bounced straight up to the intended player. The cross kick was on a penalty so he was trying to put the ball to the try line. No way to see if it was an overlap because the extra attacking players were not even on the tv screen when the ball was kicked. If Farrell had passed seems to me there was sufficient time for the defense to get over and cover. Bizarre to slate him on that. It was strange that it seemed he really didn't touch the ball so much. His defense was good as usual, and his kicks were fine. All in all, a decent performance.

by formerly known as Sam Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:09 am

Mike Phillips was distinctly average again but looks set to start for reasons unknown. I'd currently rate him as the third best SH on tour.

Adam Jones had a very quiet game (his worst of the tour) and Cole seemed to go better in the scrum and the loose when he came on. Bit to late for Dan to take the tour shirt for the first test though he's been too workmanlike and needed some big games.

Davies was excellent but his up against BOD for the 13 shirt. Bad luck.

Re Farrell he has been doing fine but plays deeper by nature. The Lions are pushing him flatter (about bloody time someone did) and as such some of his passes and decisions are a little more rushed than the more experienced Sexton.

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