The Gap

by GloriousEmpire Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:21 pm

More evidence today that we in the NH are drifting further into irrelevance.

A B-side for NSW found gaping holes in the lions and again showed that even a regional Australian side in a country with notorious lack of depth can outwit us and play with ferver and panache that we just can't match.

Lets face it; a SANZAR representative team playing a British club who were resting their national reps would be smashed off the park without the visitors breaking sweat.

This following the misery of our NH representative World Cup finalists being dismantled And humiliatingly nilled by a youthful and rebuilding AB side resting their stars.

And that followed the development Wales side being humbled by Minnows Japan!

To top it off Samoa destroy Italy by a cricket score and now we can watch Scotland embarrassed in South Africa!

Really only England flying the flag for NH depth and emerging talent with their successful tour in Argentina.

by HammerofThunor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:27 pm

39-10 is a cricket score? Shocked

What was the score in NSW game? Sounds like a close game.

PS why can't you just stop pretending you're not a kiwi?

by Shifty Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:28 pm

Oh please the Lions have smashed all before them with a team and squad their trying to gel.

France are in a bloody mess and need to sort themselves out I agree.

Wales lost to a very good and improving Japanese team with their youth team, basically for a large part a 3rd or 4th string team. After sticking 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 points on them the last few times we have played them. I don't think any Welshman begrudges them 1 win after the hammerings we have given them over the years.

Scotland have balls going to South Africa with their Lions, well done to them. Italy never like touring, they always struggle on tour.

At least you got to put England up in lights!
OH SO GLORIOUS ENGLAND! Yahoo

Seriously lighten up mate, a couple more weeks, and you'll have to ration yourself off rugby until September! Enjoy it while you can!

by Cyril Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:28 pm

Shifty the OP is grey ghost

trying to stir up trouble!

by Taylorman Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:29 pm

this thread will be interesting...
Enjoyed the Lions match though the tahs with 10+ out vs the shadow test side can't fill with supreme confidence, especially considering the full Tahs side isnt even going to make the top six playoffs in the sxv.

Japan has re-exposed the Welsh depth issues, as will the Boks shortly vs Scotland and Samoa are continuing to prove they are a class side.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:30 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:39-10 is a cricket score?

What was the score in NSW game? Sounds like a close game.

PS why can't you just stop pretending you're not a kiwi?

Essex were bowled out for 20 yesterday, so if 20-10 is a cricket score, why not 39-10 Very Happy

by HammerofThunor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:30 pm

Oh and Japan is in the NH isn't it so what does that have to do with the gap.

by Aelandor Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:33 pm

This is very true, but when you consider that Wales have 15 players on the Lions tour, another 10 out injured and then some bizarre selections which seem to be aimed at capping as many Cardiff Blues players as possible whilst ignoring any experienced players which are left ( Ryan Jones, Ken Owens etc.) Then this was always going to be an accident waiting to happen. In contrast to England who have players in Argentina who (IMHO) are better than some of their counterparts on the Lions tour (Freddie Burns, Billy 36) coupled with a huge playing base, against an Argentine short of a large amount of 1st team regulars then its not really that surprising.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:34 pm

As to the original post.

We are unlikely to ever see SANZAR nations do a proper tour, let alone a composite team. Composite teams will often struggle a little to try and meld players who have never played together, and the sort of frailties that can create were indeed displayed today. However the quality of the Lions was a step higher and allowed them to run out easy winners.

In recent years a Leicester team denuded of up to 20 first choice players have beaten South Africa and the Maoris, so yes weakened NH club sides can never, ever beat SH representative teams.

by Guest Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:40 pm

by Breadvan Sat 15 Jun 2013, 3:51 pm

Grey :ghost:has had more names than liz Taylor....

by GloriousEmpire Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:02 pm

I think we need to stop flattering ourselves shifty, with this kind of delusion and excuse making.

Shifty wrote:Oh please the Lions have smashed all before them with a team and squad their trying to gel.

France are in a bloody mess and need to sort themselves out I agree.

Wales lost to a very good and improving Japanese team with their youth team, basically for a large part a 3rd or 4th string team. After sticking 50, 60, 70, 80 and 90 points on them the last few times we have played them. I don't think any Welshman begrudges them 1 win after the hammerings we have given them over the years.

Scotland have balls going to South Africa with their Lions, well done to them. Italy never like touring, they always struggle on tour.

At least you got to put England up in lights!
OH SO GLORIOUS ENGLAND!

Seriously lighten up mate, a couple more weeks, and you'll have to ration yourself off rugby until September! Enjoy it while you can!

by Cyril Sat 15 Jun 2013, 4:03 pm

by Metal Tiger Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:00 pm

Poor old GG. He's never quite been the same since he got UK citizenship.

by Taylorman Sat 15 Jun 2013, 11:06 pm

I think Scotland narrowed the gap a little today of all the NH sides...funny..they did this last year about this time...

nZ and Oz- and Argie to boot- coaching staff would have had one eye on that match for the upcoming Rugby Championship so unfortunately Meyer has immediately put himself under the microscope, possibly a little earlier than he would have liked to...

by fa0019 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:56 am

If Scotland had believed in themselves more and had a little bit more fortune in injuries and play they would have got over the line.

The gap is not as big as you suggest.

I would put the world into the following categories

NZ

AUS
SA
ENG
FRA
WAL

IRE
ARG
ITA
SCOT
SAM

Given England put Argentina to the sword they are right up there..... 15 players on the lions tour, another half dozen resting.... Regardless being up against a 2nd ARG side.... Scoring 50 points and by all accounts dominating up front in ARG is impressive. They have few vets in their side.... They're going places.... The gap between NZ and the rest s closing.

by kiakahaaotearoa Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:09 am

Sadly the gap between NZ and the rest of the world is not closing. It's still more than a day's flight from Europe. We still lead the world in terms of greeting the new day. Until that changes we will continue to lead the way.

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:21 am

fa0019 wrote:If Scotland had believed in themselves more and had a little bit more fortune in injuries and play they would have got over the line.

The gap is not as big as you suggest.

I would put the world into the following categories

NZ

AUS
SA
ENG
FRA
WAL

IRE
ARG
ITA
SCOT
SAM

Given England put Argentina to the sword they are right up there..... 15 players on the lions tour, another half dozen resting.... Regardless being up against a 2nd ARG side.... Scoring 50 points and by all accounts dominating up front in ARG is impressive. They have few vets in their side.... They're going places.... The gap between NZ and the rest s closing.

Crikey fa - I'm not sure that you could put France in the second tier at the moment. They are a complete basket case.

GG - good/bad to hear from you, as ever. Wales had a fourth team out against Japan, who are currently ranked 13th in the world and have 125,000 players at their disposal. Why was that defeat in any way unusual?

I am assuming that you didn't watch the Springboks/Scotland game or you would at least have acknowleged that Scotland (with 11 first choice players unavailable) held an 11 point lead for a portion of the game and were denied a victory over a full strength Bok side playing at home by two broken fly halves, a crocked second row, a yellow card and a series of questionnable refereeing decisions. Scotland last beat them an aeon ago, of course. Oh. Wait. It was 2010.

As you were.

by aucklandlaurie Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:55 am

HammerofThunor wrote:39-10 is a cricket score?

What was the score in NSW game? Sounds like a close game.

PS why can't you just stop pretending you're not a kiwi?

Why would a kiwi pretend hes not a Kiwi on an International Rugby Forum?

by **LondonTiger** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 9:01 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:39-10 is a cricket score?

What was the score in NSW game? Sounds like a close game.

PS why can't you just stop pretending you're not a kiwi?

Why would a kiwi pretend hes not a Kiwi on an International Rugby Forum?

There is a past history of it happening - and other nationalities pretending to be something else too. As to "why", you would have to ask the people who do it.

by aucklandlaurie Sun 16 Jun 2013, 9:05 am

Yes Ive seen many instances of non Kiwis who pretend know a lot about New Zealand rugby.

by LeinsterFan4life Sun 16 Jun 2013, 9:10 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:
HammerofThunor wrote:39-10 is a cricket score?

What was the score in NSW game? Sounds like a close game.

PS why can't you just stop pretending you're not a kiwi?

Why would a kiwi pretend hes not a Kiwi on an International Rugby Forum?

lets go find AWOP and ask him. He even pretended he had bad english!!!

by HammerofThunor Sun 16 Jun 2013, 10:05 am

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Sadly the gap between NZ and the rest of the world is not closing. It's still more than a day's flight from Europe. We still lead the world in terms of greeting the new day. Until that changes we will continue to lead the way.

Surely that's Samoa. Didn't they switch timezones recently?

by kiakahaaotearoa Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:05 pm

Yeah you're right! Oh well, Samoa are leading the way in terms of closing the gap. That actually makes sense.

by disneychilly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 5:31 pm

I don't give a toss how big the gap is. If you're only just ahead you're still the best in the world. We'll always look for improvement but I'm happy with that. The ABs don't smash the opposition every time they win, you know.

by **Rugby Fan** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 5:59 pm

George Carlin wrote:...Japan, who are currently ranked 13th in the world...

Pedantry corner:

Japan are ranked 15th, and probably will still be 15th even after picking up two ranking points following their Wales win:

http://www.irb.com/rankings/full.html

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:11 pm

If anything fa019 the gap between NZ and the rest isnt closing. We have averaged around 20 points a win over the last 3 years having lost only two tests in any one year- 2011 when in one test we held back players in SA for the Wcup.

Based on the start to this year, and without seeing Oz next week, from all tests 2013, the gap so far looks to have increased.

by aitchw Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:29 pm

NZ are the only side that manages it's development of players with consistency and skill and will continue to dominate world rugby for the forseeable future. Other nations manage to acquire outstanding squads periodically and cause the occasional upset but don't maintain it. Some manage outstanding one off performances.

fa's rankings are about right for now. The gap to NZ isn't closing by any meaningful degree.

by ChequeredJersey Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:38 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:39-10 is a cricket score?

What was the score in NSW game? Sounds like a close game.

PS why can't you just stop pretending you're not a kiwi?

It's a pretty good bowling performance

by blackcanelion Mon 17 Jun 2013, 1:01 am

by blackcanelion Mon 17 Jun 2013, 1:24 am

How about

NZ

SA
Australia

Wales
England
France

Samoa
Argentina
Ireland

Scotland
Italy
Tonga
Fiji

USA
Canada
Georgia
Japan

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 17 Jun 2013, 5:44 am

Your 3rd group is arguable bc with France not deserving of that place on current performances. Anyway, I think it's a decent appraisal but you've overcomplicated it.

NZ

The rest.

Kiwi

by doddieman Mon 17 Jun 2013, 7:25 pm

Serious question: is it boring being an all black supporter?
The excitement of being welsh is that success and disaster are so close. You never know what to expect and as frustrating as it might be, it keeps you on the seat of your pants.
When you nearly always win, wheres the excitement of possibly not winning or simply being fully challenged?
Maybethe new zealand team should be split into north and south, give the rest of us a chance and make things more interesting for NZ fans?

by aitchw Mon 17 Jun 2013, 7:28 pm

All that would do is put 2 NZ teams at the top.

by kiakahaaotearoa Mon 17 Jun 2013, 8:18 pm

Serious answer: if you keep going out every weekend and keep coming home with a different gorgeous girl every time would you describe that as boring?

I'll take that every time over the fear of waking up the next morning lying next to The Gap 3559488474

.

by irfon17 Mon 17 Jun 2013, 8:37 pm

Gets tiresome after a while doesn't it (the OP that is).

by Dontheman Mon 17 Jun 2013, 8:40 pm

GloriousEmpire wrote:More evidence today that we in the NH are drifting further into irrelevance.

A B-side for NSW found gaping holes in the lions and again showed that even a regional Australian side in a country with notorious lack of depth can outwit us and play with ferver and panache that we just can't match.

Lets face it; a SANZAR representative team playing a British club who were resting their national reps would be smashed off the park without the visitors breaking sweat.

This following the misery of our NH representative World Cup finalists being dismantled And humiliatingly nilled by a youthful and rebuilding AB side resting their stars.

And that followed the development Wales side being humbled by Minnows Japan!

To top it off Samoa destroy Italy by a cricket score and now we can watch Scotland embarrassed in South Africa!

Really only England flying the flag for NH depth and emerging talent with their successful tour in Argentina.

47-17 record score against NSW Waratahs

by aucklandlaurie Mon 17 Jun 2013, 9:58 pm

Donetheman

How can 47-17 be a record score against the Tahs?

Surely the Canterbury Crusaders victory over the Tahs by 96- 16 would be higher? (11 May 2002, Jade Stadium) would be a record or am I missing something?

by Taylorman Mon 17 Jun 2013, 10:56 pm

Yep...and Brumbies beat em 51-10 the week before...

This year the Brumbies beat them 35-6 so one point off (though Tahs would have had the full squad then)...

by Taylorman Mon 17 Jun 2013, 10:57 pm

Yep...and Brumbies beat em 51-10 the week before...

This year the Brumbies beat them 35-6 so one point off (though Tahs would have had the full squad then)...

by nganboy Tue 18 Jun 2013, 2:20 am

doddieman wrote:Serious question: is it boring being an all black supporter?
The excitement of being welsh is that success and disaster are so close. You never know what to expect and as frustrating as it might be, it keeps you on the seat of your pants.
When you nearly always win, wheres the excitement of possibly not winning or simply being fully challenged?
Maybethe new zealand team should be split into north and south, give the rest of us a chance and make things more interesting for NZ fans?

No its very much not boring. We lose enough games every year to make it interesting. Also the nature of the win is interesting. Also every team has ups and downs and while we have been on top a lot recently that can easily change. In 2012 we had one draw and one loss. But we could easily have lost/drawn the second test with Ireland and we looked average in a couple of test against Aus/SA/Arg which while we won last year could lose this year.

by GloriousEmpire Tue 18 Jun 2013, 7:28 am

The upgrade to the sites input form is worse than before. Can we please go back to markup in the text box instead of this wysiwyg disaster?

by Brendan Tue 18 Jun 2013, 7:58 am

Why should ireland not be up there with wales and france. Our AIs were better then wales and beat them in wales while we also did as good as france maybe better then them in NZ while our B team is doing well v better teams then wales and or C team beat georgia while our U20s did well considering their group and players missing.

by **Rugby Fan** Tue 18 Jun 2013, 8:27 am

I can't think of any sport - not even cricket - where rankings are so elevated. I want to see my team be highly regarded because we've won key matches, not spend my time imagining who we ought to beat on account of our ranking.

I'm sure a few New Zealand supporters would trade some points on their winning percentage for a few more World Cup titles over the years.

What's the point in parsing these rankings? It's not as if teams play each other so rarely that we have to intuit relative strength. These days, we get an annual accounting on the pitch for the majority of important head-to-heads, which surely counts for more.

If, instead, it gives comfort to some to know that their team regularly beats a team who beats a team they just lost to, then good luck. Perhaps they should consider taking up Top Trumps.

by Dontheman Tue 18 Jun 2013, 8:41 am

aucklandlaurie wrote:Donetheman

How can 47-17 be a record score against the Tahs?

Surely the Canterbury Crusaders victory over the Tahs by 96- 16 would be higher? (11 May 2002, Jade Stadium) would be a record or am I missing something?

Ok ok record Lions score you know what I mean

by kiakahaaotearoa Tue 18 Jun 2013, 9:15 am

I think Rugby Fan we'd trade any loss in general for a win regardless of when it happens. We just want to win and win well. Sometimes a loss though reminds us of how lucky we are and how unrealistic our win every game mentality is. We do lose some games and need to take it on the chin like Richie when he gets roughed up in a ruck. Shame there's always a few idiots who don't have the class the great man has.

by nganboy Wed 19 Jun 2013, 1:34 am

I don't care about the rankings - win you games and the rankings take care of themselves.

by GloriousEmpire Wed 19 Jun 2013, 6:54 am

My point proven last night - the second tier of best players from the Lions constituents are second best to the second tier of players from one super rugby franchise - and I expect the same applies to the first tier.

by Scarpia Wed 19 Jun 2013, 9:01 am

I wonder how well the Brumbies would have played with a No10 who's not a No10 and three players who had arrived at the club the previous day - including one, aged 36, who has not played at a 1st class level for nearly two years. Add to that a hooker who probably played his worst game in living memory.

by **profitius** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 11:22 am

GloriousEmpire wrote:My point proven last night - the second tier of best players from the Lions constituents are second best to the second tier of players from one super rugby franchise - and I expect the same applies to the first tier.

Ironic then that England and Wales made it to the JWC final...

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