Why the Maitland bashing?

by tigertattie Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:26 pm

I don't get why many posters have turned on Sean Maitland following the game yesterday? Are folk already forgetting how well he played on wed? Maybe he was tired yesterday with such a little turn around?

He has been far better than cuthbert yet everyone (well, the majority) has dismissed him as being a test starter!!! One bad game and yer out? 3/4's of the team would have been punted by now if that was the case.

Maitland is a classy player and I hope he is picked to start and I hope he proves his worth.

by nathan Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:31 pm

i doubt he'll be picked to start but i wouldn't worry about what peoples opinions are. They'll go up and down like a yoyo based on the tiniest of details. one dodgy pass, one missed tackle and their Poopie.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:35 pm

I did not see the midweek game, but performances in that match should not hold too much sway.

After Bowe's injury, I had allowed others opinions on Maitland's class saway me a little and included him in my proposed first test line-up.

After this match, where I felt he looked off the pace, a comment that could also be applied to his start in HK, I have revised that opinion. Not turned on him as such, just feel that with two lacklustre performances when starting as a winger he is very unlikely to play.

Everyone says he is a classy player, but to be honest I have seen little evidence - perhaps explained by rarely watching Rabo or SXV.

by Guest Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:40 pm

The same reason as people will round on Cuthbert unfortunately, though at least Cuthbert is doing what he's there for and scoring.

by lostinwales Sun 16 Jun 2013, 12:43 pm

As we all know its always very important to make all judgements based on one game only....

by sensisball Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:33 pm

Maitland didnt have his best game on Saturday but he did play a full match on Tuesday, and played well. I rate his defensive play higher than Cuthbert's but the welshman is a stronger finisher. Tough call for Gats as he knows both players well.
I suspect he will go with Maitland with Roberts absence as the midfield defence with Davies in the 12 shirt may not be as strong as a Roberts, Drico combo. Maitland's superior positional play and defence may just sway it in his favour. Neither are named in the Tuesday squad and we expect both to play a part.

by kingjohn7 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:45 pm

If Roberts and NOrth both out he will 100% select Cuthbert. He will want at least 1 big unit of a strike runner.

by dragonbreath Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:50 pm

nathan wrote:i doubt he'll be picked to start but i wouldn't worry about what peoples opinions are. They'll go up and down like a yoyo based on the tiniest of details. one dodgy pass, one missed tackle and their Poopie.

Mine have not. I said I saw nothing in Maitland when he was selected. Unfortunately he is worse than I thought

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 1:59 pm

It's happened for a couple of reasons Tattie - 1. people see what they want to see and 2. people don't look to the aggregate of what a player contributes, they only look to the highlight reel stuff - i.e. the glory carries, the try scoring, the set piece where they can point to one particular thing.

For balance, however, if your main selling point is your defensive intelligence (which Howley has said in interviews is one of the main reasons Maitland came) and you make a couple of quite high profile soft mistakes in defence, then it invites simple and easy criticism (although intutive criticism, to be fair) from fans of Cuthbert to say that if you're going to play a winger with defensive frailties you might as well play one that also scores a shedloads of tries. I have a lot of sympathy with that.

I watch Maitland week in, week out and people can either assume that makes my opinion of him either more considered than most or completely one-eyed and biased - I would understand either approach. However, Glasgow scored more tries than any other team in the Rabo this season (66) and Maitland was one of the reasons. Unfotunately, we aren't as diligent in keeping stats as our American cousins when it comes to sports but if we did, we would see across the Rabo the kind of stats that we saw when Maitland played against Combined Countries - astonishingly high numbers in terms of passes, 'assists' (being direct passes for tries) and meters run. He would also rank well for number of tackles made. The reason for that is that he is a terrific link man and reader of the game. He doesn't score the tries, but he makes sure that the guy next to him does.

Some people will, of course, never agree on this and that's the nature of this, unfortunately. People are horribly subjective and partisan which it comes to assessing the merits and detriments of their players. I was hoping that this might improve over the course of the Lions series but it's actually got worse. The press aren't a lot better - I cannot read the Tom Croft Fanzine (aka the Telegraph) any more - it just makes me too angry.

After the C Countries game, they grouped Hogg in with 4 other Players Who Aren't Tom Croft as someone who had 'hurt their chances of being selected'. Rather than assessing him on how he'd done at 10, which was what the feature purported to do, it instead mentioned that Hogg "missed a tackle" in the match and because he had also famously missed one against France months ago in the 6N, he couldn't possibly start in the Test team at 15. I literally printed that page and blew my nose on it.

by The Saint Sun 16 Jun 2013, 2:01 pm

tigertattie wrote:I don't get why many posters have turned on Sean Maitland following the game yesterday? Are folk already forgetting how well he played on wed? Maybe he was tired yesterday with such a little turn around?

Why don't you? Posters have already turned on Farrell, Phillips, Lydiate, Warburton and most other Welsh ones.

Maitland is still a test start for me, with North on the other wing and Halfpenny at full-back.

by Cyril Sun 16 Jun 2013, 3:42 pm

There was definitely a much better feeling of 'togetherness' in 2009 on the old 606.

Yes, after the 2nd test O'Gara took quite a bit of criticism, but in general, it just seemed that the nations were more supportive of all players and there was less back-biting and point scoring.

Sign of the times I guess.

I'm only talking about online of course. In the "real world" I'm sure it's probably ok. What real world, I hear you ask...

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:03 pm

Maitland at the Crusaders was rated as good, reliable. Rarely was he mentioned as an AB prospect for that reason. Although he did some good things for Scotland to go from several seasons in the sxv as a journeyman straight into the 6N then a Lions tour was too big a step up, too early...and probably a bridge too far.

Pity they couldnt see what we've known for years. Would've saved everyones time.

by Looseheaded Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:18 pm

Maitland's been pretty awful all tour in my opinion, lowest in the back three pecking order

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:33 pm

Taylorman wrote:Maitland at the Crusaders was rated as good, reliable. Rarely was he mentioned as an AB prospect for that reason. Although he did some good things for Scotland to go from several seasons in the sxv as a journeyman straight into the 6N then a Lions tour was too big a step up, too early...and probably a bridge too far.

Pity they couldnt see what we've known for years. Would've saved everyones time.

Taylorman - I'm not sure that the word 'journeyman' fits someone who's been Super rugby's top scorer in a season and still holds the single game scoring record.

Two questions for you - 1) what do you perceive is the gulf between Super rugby and international rugby and 2) how do you compare Maitland to former colleagues like Zac Guildford and Adam Whitelock?

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:57 pm

George Maitland was often the finisher of some very good tries created by those inside him. The Crusaders domianance in some sxv seasons was something Maitland will never be part of in the NH meaning he has to create more than is created for him, and with the Lions do that at a much higher level. He's simply not in that category of player.

Guilfords work rate and ability to time his run into the gaps got him into the AB's but he was never a first pick as wing- and wont ever be again. Adam Whitlocks time may come but at the moment hes no higher than sxv, and I dont think he'll go higher, but we'll see.

I'm not the biggest Sader or Maitland fan so might be under selling him so perhaps Kia might have a view on that one.

He's no real x factor about him and I've never seen any overly match winning qualities about his game. He's fast, reliable at anything sxv level yet limited above it. Thats why he was never picked here above sxv.

And I'm afraid its showing...he's not going to win the series for the Lions, thats for certain. For me, North, Cuthbert, Zebo etc are FAR better prospects though I see Norths injured.

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 6:58 pm

Taylorman wrote:Maitland at the Crusaders was rated as good, reliable. Rarely was he mentioned as an AB prospect for that reason. Although he did some good things for Scotland to go from several seasons in the sxv as a journeyman straight into the 6N then a Lions tour was too big a step up, too early...and probably a bridge too far.

Pity they couldnt see what we've known for years. Would've saved everyones time.

How can it be seen to be a bridge too far given that he's played only Super rugby sides at the very best so far (and even they have been weakened by players being removed or injured)? So he spent several seasons in Super rugby but wearing a Lions shirt playing against Super rugby teams means he hasn't stepped up? Up to what? The test of a Lion is a...test - or two.

by Majestic83 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:01 pm

There really are some non educated opinions of Maitland on here. Have some of the people who have commented never seen him play before except the one game against the Waratahs on Saturday?!
Yeah he missed the tackle for the Tahs first try but Maitland did do a lot of good work after that, maybe wasn't his best game but doesn't make him a bad player.

Top try scorer in the super xv, most tries in one game and someone who a lot of kiwi's believe is to be one of the best players to miss out on an all blacks cap. He was in the frame for the all blacks but they wanted him to play 7s rugby first. He chose not to because he knew it would tie him to NZ when he knew there was the chance to play for Scotland too.

This season for Glasgow and Scotland he has been in outstanding form, in attack he has finished well but he creates a lot of tries with great timed passes, breaks etc. His defence has been outstanding apart from the one missed tackle on Saturday which not many players would have made! Gatland has said he has been impressed by a lot of the unnoticed work Maitland does.

People should take a look at his highlight clips on youtube to actually see how good a player he is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgMLB5vzukY

by yappysnap Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:02 pm

Maybe because Zebo has found better form in a shorter space of time?

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:04 pm

As to the 'gap' between superxv and International rugby...I think its bigger for NZ than Oz or the Boks.

The AB environment creates a bigger gap than that of Oz or SA. Often you'll see SA sides dominate the sxv- 2010 a good example- the Bulls and Stormers in the final.

Yet that year NZ dominated the PDV Bok side who werent able to tranlate their sxv talent to a higher level. Oz are similar though their problems are more through thinner player resource- made worse with injuries.

NZ are able to bring players into the environment and produce a team far superior to any one of the NZ sxv sides on a consistent basis, something the Lions need to be doing to have a shot at beating Oz.

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:07 pm

Guess I'll leave it to my fellow Kiwi's to comment but as far as I'm concerned Maitland was never AB material and I can't ever recall him being placed on anyones wishlist.

Another case of the NH over-rating a player I think.

by Majestic83 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:15 pm

Funny that the main newspaper in NZ the NZ herald ran a few articles at the time maitland signed for Glasgow that they believed he was one of the great players to be unlucky on not gaining an all black cap.

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:25 pm

Maj...how many sxv matches with maitland playing did you watch to be able to form your own opinion?

Yes at the time of going he could have been 'unlucky not to win a cap'. But what does that mean? He should be the frontrunner in a once every four years Lions side above all othe NH wingers, at a time when hes accepted his chances of being an AB are over, after having played in a champion side where at times 80% of the guys on the field are AB's. Who wouldnt be unlucky in that environment? Most of them I say.

by Majestic83 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:34 pm

Pretty much the majority of the games he has played in with the crusaders i have either watched live or highlights off. Also been to a couple of the saders games and seen him play live so yeah a fair few.

Yes he was lucky to play in a great Crusaders side but if you watched alot of the games he outperformed many of the all blacks in the team playing in the same or similar position. Regularly outperformed Zac and Izzy and before that Leon MacDonald and Scott Hamilton!

Doesn't mean because he came from superxv he should get in automatically above other NH hemisphere wingers. He had to earn it which he did with his performances for Scotland and Glasgow, some of which have been outstanding!

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:44 pm

Taylorman wrote:Guess I'll leave it to my fellow Kiwi's to comment but as far as I'm concerned Maitland was never AB material and I can't ever recall him being placed on anyones wishlist.

Another case of the NH over-rating a player I think.

It's possible - stranger things have happened Wink

But so too is it kinda pointed and possible at times that our SH NZ buddies totally resist the idea that anything good ever went to Europe to seek his fame and fortune once denied an AB shot.

If an AB shirt is the only gold standard in NZ then that's a lot of no-hope wasters who play rugby there and never get a sniff of an AB shirt. Shame on them.

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:46 pm

Taylorman wrote:Maj...how many sxv matches with maitland playing did you watch to be able to form your own opinion?

Yes at the time of going he could have been 'unlucky not to win a cap'. But what does that mean? He should be the frontrunner in a once every four years Lions side above all othe NH wingers, at a time when hes accepted his chances of being an AB are over, after having played in a champion side where at times 80% of the guys on the field are AB's. Who wouldnt be unlucky in that environment? Most of them I say.

Just did a long reply to you Taylor, but like the genius I am managed to delete it. The gist of it was that I think that Maitland is a damn sight better than a number of people who did get All Black caps - Simon Mannix, Terry Wright, Ben Blair to name just three. I saw footage of Caleb Ralph once and couldn't believe it. I mean, honestly, there are dozens of players with fewer than 10 AB caps and being discarded is deserved in a number of these cases. It's not a bulletproof badge of quality. There will always be eras without a Doug Howlett or Jeff Wilson.

What Maitland did was realise that he would never receive more than a handful of caps, if any and he wanted more from his international career. Sounds like he got that right. Rudi Wulf has, what, 4 caps? Lelia Masaga has one, Tuitavake can't have more than a handful, neither can Ellison. Are those players really so much better because they were capped? I don't think that it's clear cut at all.

by The Saint Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:49 pm

If Dagg and Guildford can get more than a handful of caps, then so could have Maitland.

by **Notch** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 7:51 pm

I think he's considerably better than people are making out, but needs a score for his confidence.

I would rather he start the test than Cuthbert but right now I'm leaning towards Zebo and North. Zebo and Maitland if North doesn't make it.

by Metal Tiger Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:07 pm

Cyril on 606v2 wrote:There was definitely a much better feeling of 'togetherness' in 2009 on the old 606.

Yes, after the 2nd test O'Gara took quite a bit of criticism, but in general, it just seemed that the nations were more supportive of all players and there was less back-biting and point scoring.

Sign of the times I guess.

I'm only talking about online of course. In the "real world" I'm sure it's probably ok. What real world, I hear you ask...

Most people "offline" are behind the Lions 100%

Most of my rugby club (a good mix of backgrounds & nationalities) have all been glued to the games and cheering their asses off for whoever has played. So when I come on here it always surprises me that it is swamped with so much negativity.

Unfortunately it is the same old arm chair generals spewing bile to score points and slag off anyone who doesn't agree with their myopic agendas.

Someone said before that this site was spoiling their lions experiance. I kind of agree.

by Guest Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:19 pm

Majestic83 wrote:There really are some non educated opinions of Maitland on here. Have some of the people who have commented never seen him play before except the one game against the Waratahs on Saturday?!
Yeah he missed the tackle for the Tahs first try but Maitland did do a lot of good work after that, maybe wasn't his best game but doesn't make him a bad player.

Top try scorer in the super xv, most tries in one game and someone who a lot of kiwi's believe is to be one of the best players to miss out on an all blacks cap. He was in the frame for the all blacks but they wanted him to play 7s rugby first. He chose not to because he knew it would tie him to NZ when he knew there was the chance to play for Scotland too.

This season for Glasgow and Scotland he has been in outstanding form, in attack he has finished well but he creates a lot of tries with great timed passes, breaks etc. His defence has been outstanding apart from the one missed tackle on Saturday which not many players would have made! Gatland has said he has been impressed by a lot of the unnoticed work Maitland does.

People should take a look at his highlight clips on youtube to actually see how good a player he is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgMLB5vzukY

I'm sorry, I rate Maitland but a YouTube clip proves nothing. I could show you one of Dragons player Mike Poole (conveniently made by himself) where he looks quality on it. They don't tend to show mistakes etc do they.

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:21 pm

Well at least you two (Cyril and Tiger) are talking with one voice Wink

You're so united in what you say that it's hard to tell when one of you has stopped and the other has started..... Whistle

by SecretFly Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:25 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
I'm sorry, I rate Maitland but a YouTube clip proves nothing. I could show you one of Dragons player Mike Poole (conveniently made by himself) where he looks quality on it. They don't tend to show mistakes etc do they.

You want mistakes? If you could wait for a week or two I'd give you a raft of them - from O'Driscoll, North, Carter, McCaw, Wilkinson, you name the star and I'd find a host of mistakes.

If you're a player who has never made a mistake you're probably Mike Poole making another faultless compilation clip.

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:30 pm

Risca Rev wrote:
Majestic83 wrote:There really are some non educated opinions of Maitland on here. Have some of the people who have commented never seen him play before except the one game against the Waratahs on Saturday?!
Yeah he missed the tackle for the Tahs first try but Maitland did do a lot of good work after that, maybe wasn't his best game but doesn't make him a bad player.

Top try scorer in the super xv, most tries in one game and someone who a lot of kiwi's believe is to be one of the best players to miss out on an all blacks cap. He was in the frame for the all blacks but they wanted him to play 7s rugby first. He chose not to because he knew it would tie him to NZ when he knew there was the chance to play for Scotland too.

This season for Glasgow and Scotland he has been in outstanding form, in attack he has finished well but he creates a lot of tries with great timed passes, breaks etc. His defence has been outstanding apart from the one missed tackle on Saturday which not many players would have made! Gatland has said he has been impressed by a lot of the unnoticed work Maitland does.

People should take a look at his highlight clips on youtube to actually see how good a player he is.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UgMLB5vzukY

I'm sorry, I rate Maitland but a YouTube clip proves nothing. I could show you one of Dragons player Mike Poole (conveniently made by himself) where he looks quality on it. They don't tend to show mistakes etc do they.

Other than the shedload of tries he scored during Super rugby and for his province.

by nganboy Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:31 pm

I agree with Taylorman on this one and have said so before. Maitland was a good Super level player who had one very good season. However, it looked unlikely to me that he would ever get a call up to the ABs. However he is young and if he had hung around and improved his game who knows eg Ben Smith and Rene Ranger who have waited years to get the chance.

Yes there are many players who have gotten a test or two without being that good as someone said look at Caleb Ralph. And that's exactly where Maitland sits.

As to Saint's comment about Dagg - well we all have our opinions and Dagg has been talked about before on this site.

by nganboy Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:33 pm

I agree with Taylorman on this one and have said so before. Maitland was a good Super level player who had one very good season. However, it looked unlikely to me that he would ever get a call up to the ABs. However he is young and if he had hung around and improved his game who knows eg Ben Smith and Rene Ranger who have waited years to get the chance.

Yes there are many players who have gotten a test or two without being that good as someone said look at Caleb Ralph. And that's exactly where Maitland sits.

As to Saint's comment about Dagg - well we all have our opinions and Dagg has been talked about before on this site.

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:36 pm

George Carlin wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Maj...how many sxv matches with maitland playing did you watch to be able to form your own opinion?

Yes at the time of going he could have been 'unlucky not to win a cap'. But what does that mean? He should be the frontrunner in a once every four years Lions side above all othe NH wingers, at a time when hes accepted his chances of being an AB are over, after having played in a champion side where at times 80% of the guys on the field are AB's. Who wouldnt be unlucky in that environment? Most of them I say.
Just did a long reply to you Taylor, but like the genius I am managed to delete it. The gist of it was that I think that Maitland is a damn sight better than a number of people who did get All Black caps - Simon Mannix, Terry Wright, Ben Blair to name just three. I saw footage of Caleb Ralph once and couldn't believe it. I mean, honestly, there are dozens of players with fewer than 10 AB caps and being discarded is deserved in a number of these cases. It's not a bulletproof badge of quality. There will always be eras without a Doug Howlett or Jeff Wilson.

What Maitland did was realise that he would never receive more than a handful of caps, if any and he wanted more from his international career. Sounds like he got that right. Rudi Wulf has, what, 4 caps? Lelia Masaga has one, Tuitavake can't have more than a handful, neither can Ellison. Are those players really so much better because they were capped? I don't think that it's clear cut at all.

Yes I agree, we've named some shockers in the past and Maitland is certainly in the Caleb Ralph, Wright, Mannix, Wulf league, certainly no higher. Wright is one that was stunning for Auckland and so so as an AB.

And yes I think it is a bridge too far to expect a first year international to be equipped for a Lions series as a starter- way too far.
If I'd said Maitland was good enough to be a Lions starter this time last year (not that I ever would have) you'd have all jumped on me like a pack of wolves- NZers think non AB's are better than the test NH wingers blah blah, this and that.

Yet you throw him a Scottish jersey and a few club games and now its confirmed- he actually is good enough, now he has the rumber stamp of the measure of a good player...

Pleeease...

by Majestic83 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:45 pm

Maitland had one good season, really?? I seem to have been watching him play super rugby since 2008 and apart from 2012 where he was injured for a lot of it he has been in very good form.

Taylorman, where is your basis that he wasn't good enough, what games did he have shockers or not perform when playing for the saders. If you speak to any players who have played against Maitland then a lot of them say he is one of the most difficult players to play against due to the amount of work he does of the ball.

by **George Carlin** Sun 16 Jun 2013, 8:59 pm

Taylorman wrote:
George Carlin wrote:
Taylorman wrote:Maj...how many sxv matches with maitland playing did you watch to be able to form your own opinion?

Yes at the time of going he could have been 'unlucky not to win a cap'. But what does that mean? He should be the frontrunner in a once every four years Lions side above all othe NH wingers, at a time when hes accepted his chances of being an AB are over, after having played in a champion side where at times 80% of the guys on the field are AB's. Who wouldnt be unlucky in that environment? Most of them I say.
Just did a long reply to you Taylor, but like the genius I am managed to delete it. The gist of it was that I think that Maitland is a damn sight better than a number of people who did get All Black caps - Simon Mannix, Terry Wright, Ben Blair to name just three. I saw footage of Caleb Ralph once and couldn't believe it. I mean, honestly, there are dozens of players with fewer than 10 AB caps and being discarded is deserved in a number of these cases. It's not a bulletproof badge of quality. There will always be eras without a Doug Howlett or Jeff Wilson.

What Maitland did was realise that he would never receive more than a handful of caps, if any and he wanted more from his international career. Sounds like he got that right. Rudi Wulf has, what, 4 caps? Lelia Masaga has one, Tuitavake can't have more than a handful, neither can Ellison. Are those players really so much better because they were capped? I don't think that it's clear cut at all.

Yes I agree, we've named some shockers in the past and Maitland is certainly in the Caleb Ralph, Wright, Mannix, Wulf league, certainly no higher. Wright is one that was stunning for Auckland and so so as an AB.

And yes I think it is a bridge too far to expect a first year international to be equipped for a Lions series as a starter- way too far.

You must be apoplectic about Zebo (6 caps) and Wade (1 cap) being here then.

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 9:18 pm

Majestic83 wrote:Maitland had one good season, really?? I seem to have been watching him play super rugby since 2008 and apart from 2012 where he was injured for a lot of it he has been in very good form.

Taylorman, where is your basis that he wasn't good enough, what games did he have shockers or not perform when playing for the saders. If you speak to any players who have played against Maitland then a lot of them say he is one of the most difficult players to play against due to the amount of work he does of the ball.

I said after one season in the NH. Obviously you wouldnt have picked him before that.

What I'm saying is in NZ he doesnt have the x factor. He's the type of player that thrives off a dominant side- and some do actually do it better than others- he was one of the best at finishing.

But he never created many opportunities despite the amount of ball the Crusaeders had, he naver had that x factor to take him to the next level. AB wings are always up there with the best and they have to be because of the way we play the game. Finishing only is not good enough.

George Zebo in his short time (including the tests with Ireland last year) has showed more promise than Maitland did in years. I might be wrong because I havnt seen a lot of him but its not just the number of tests, for me Maitland never did have true international firepower and I believe thats showing through now.

And now that it sounds like I'm rubbishing him I'm not. The road to the test level is a tough one and better players than Maitland havnt made it. I just think that Gatland would be wise in not picking him. But thats just my own opinion.

by Majestic83 Sun 16 Jun 2013, 9:24 pm

I'm surprised you think that, Sean Maitland has one of the highest assist rates in superxv and his time that Glasgow so far he has one of the highest assist rates and one of the highest passes complete rates too!

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 11:17 pm

Majestic83 wrote:I'm surprised you think that, Sean Maitland has one of the highest assist rates in superxv and his time that Glasgow so far he has one of the highest assist rates and one of the highest passes complete rates too!

No offence Maj but Glasgow club league is a far cry from starting in a Lions tour- as is the sxv and this is the Oz wingers we are dealing with here- possibly not at their very best this year for whatever reason but they'll be too much for Maitland to get on top of. He'll hold his own at best.

Its his few Scotland performances that have primarily got him into this side as he acquitted himself well.

But against the Tahs- a side with 10+ players missing- and at full will still unlikely qualify top 6- Maitland let himself down.

In what is likely to be the biggest moment in his career- getting selected in the Lions jersey at start- he looked fairly odds on fave for one wing if he played well if ^)^ and the media are anything to go by. The fact is he didnt do enough work, missed key tackles and just didnt fire is a key warning to the selectors of his ability to step up.

All I'm saying is that they should listen to that warning.

by bsando Sun 16 Jun 2013, 11:39 pm

I'm in no way having a go at Cuthbert here, he is a great winger and deserves to start against Aus, but he has been worse in defence than Maitland Taylorman. I can see why some Scottish fans will be annoyed, because Cuthbert has not been criticised too heavily for his major defensive lapses at times, where as Maitland only just misses a tackle on a player who he had to get to very fast due to a cross field kick and suddenly he is missing key tackles and is shocking in defence. It doesn't help when Sky pundits are constantly talking crap after each match. They claimed Richie Gray was the luckiest player to be on tour pre ba ba's game... err, what about Stevens? Lydiate? Hartley? Bunch of clowns, I ignore everything they say.

by Taylorman Sun 16 Jun 2013, 11:49 pm

Well maybe its the worst of two or three wingers then. At least Cuthbert has considerable test expeience, of scoring some great tries that I'm aware of and has much more of a physical presence. I'd put him in before Maitland on that basis.

The Oz wings are going to be a handful anyway.

Kiwi's...who do you think- Maitland or Cuthbert?

by Majestic83 Mon 17 Jun 2013, 1:23 am

the aussie wingers who maitland regularly came out on top against in the super xv?! Maitland has missed one tackle which many top players would also have missed. Apart from that one tackle, i can't recall Maitland missing any all season.

by blackcanelion Mon 17 Jun 2013, 1:28 am

Different beasts. I think it depends on the Game plan. I think if North is playing Maitland might have a chance. I think Gatland will want at least 1 out and out power winger. I also think Cuthburt has defensive issues, so itr's not as clear cut as it might appear.

by Converter Mon 17 Jun 2013, 1:42 am

I lost a long post in response to Radge's rant about Scottish players in the Test Lions.
In summary:
2005: Gordon Bulloch came on for last 10 mins of meaningless 3rd Test.
2009: Ross Ford played in meaningless dead rubber of 3rd Teest.
I went to SA in 2009 for the first two tests and midweek Western Province. Never witnessed a victory or a Test start by a Scot.

That Shane Williams is picked ahead of 6N current international players, fit and ready, as FlyHalf Factory pointed out this morning, is a disgrace, a diminution of the Lions Jersey. Fro one, I won't be bunking off work on Tuesday to watch it.

That AWJ plays a first decent Lions test and is hyoed for it, when POC and Gray have done it in every game, says it all.

The Lions was a 5 nation concept (even when there was little to any Irish representation in 1993 and 2001). To go though a third consecutive campaign without a Scot [or any nationality, the important point] appearing in a meaningful fixture means the Lions as was is lost.

I won't be watching on Tuesday out of disgust at Gatland's 'selection policy' for want of a better word. All he wants is a Lions victory on his CV. He is not interested in the Lions.

by Taylorman Mon 17 Jun 2013, 1:44 am

Maj Ozzie wingers at test level are a completely different beast to what Maitland would have gone up against with the saders and he will have had guys like Read, McCaw, Carter and many others to apply the pressure out wide.

The Lions won't be able to do what the saders did to the sxv sides but bc has a point re North and I'm one to focus more on attack than defence as a first rule for selection of wingers- even against Oz.

And for that reason I think Cuthbert adds more grunt on attack. But I'd be happy to see Maitland play in a test (and it's not a good feeling bagging a very good kiwi back!!)...who wouldnt.

I just think Cuthbert offers more as a presence and that after last Saturday Gatland will have switched that way.

by blackcanelion Mon 17 Jun 2013, 2:42 am

It's all about tactics. The coaching team will have a game plan. They'll be picking players for that plan. It's about balance. The big thing for Cuthbert might be size, If they are worried about the Australian aerial threat posed by Folau he could have the inside running. The problem is that Folau also has a step, pace and can offload in the tackle. Given he's still a relative novice he might not be picked and still has rough edges.

by thomh Mon 17 Jun 2013, 8:46 am

The Saint wrote:Why don't you? Posters have already turned on Farrell, Phillips, Lydiate, Warburton and most other Welsh ones.

Maitland is still a test start for me, with North on the other wing and Halfpenny at full-back.

Which other Welsh ones? I haven't seen anything particularly negative about Hibbard, Jenkins, Jones, Jones, Evans, Faletau, Tipuric, North, Davies, Roberts and Halfpenny. There's been some concern over Cuthbert's form but almost everyone has about half of those as nailed on test starters if fit, especially the ones in bold, and there's been plenty of talk about how unlucky Davies and Tipuric will be if they miss out on the test squad.

I agree on your back three though. Unless Wade has a stormer tomorrow...

by GunsGerms Mon 17 Jun 2013, 9:11 am

tigertattie wrote:I don't get why many posters have turned on Sean Maitland following the game yesterday? Are folk already forgetting how well he played on wed? Maybe he was tired yesterday with such a little turn around?

He has been far better than cuthbert yet everyone (well, the majority) has dismissed him as being a test starter!!! One bad game and yer out? 3/4's of the team would have been punted by now if that was the case.

Maitland is a classy player and I hope he is picked to start and I hope he proves his worth.

Its not just after the 'Tahs match that I have been slating Maitland. I think he has been weak enough all tour and I wouldnt have selected him in the first place. Zebo is a better player and I hope he starts.

by fa0019 Mon 17 Jun 2013, 9:50 am

I'd rather have Maitland on the wing then Cuthbert.

Bowe is out for the 1st test, North is unlikely so it looks like we have a choice of

Maitland, Cuthbert or Zebo.

Wade is too late on tour to have a realistic chance of a place in the match 23 on saturday and would have to have a hattrick type debut to force Gatlands hand.

Zebo looks a little rusty too mind.

Personally I'd rather put Halfpenny on the wing and go with Hogg in the middle with Maitland but thats unlkely given Gatland never tried that.

It could be Maitland, Cuthbert and Halfpenny.... in a matter of weeks our backline has gone from looking like a Rolls Royce combo to that more similar to a Ford Mondeo.

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