Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

rodders wrote:Consider my roll slowed...

I don't think Jackson is great. I think he is good though and his distribution is excellent, better even than Sextons, he has good pace and is a solid defender. I'm not sure that he has the mental strength or personality to be a top class 10 and boss games but at only 21 its hard to judge and he has time.

I don't accept though that he has been selected on anything other than merit or that his contributions so far for Ireland have been anything other than positive.

If you judged Sexton on his goal kicking then he is a mediocre player. Except he isn't mediocre, he's top class.

Madigan is the second best 10 in Ireland right now, I think nearly everyone agrees, but in February this wasn't necessarily the case.

This right here ^^^ 100% true. Had an argument with my sister who is a Leinster fan (we're an odd family, Cork father, Kilkenny mother, living in Dublin I was born in Belgium) about this at the time. madigan was in good form in Feb and has shown he can play 10 but usually (at that point) it was almost exclusively Rabo amd not against an Ulster or Munster or Ospreys type side whereas PJ had played a Heino 1/4 in Thomond and helped Ulster win as well as the semi and final loss. So totally earned and is in credit for his 6 nations game too. But if Kidney were making the decision now, he'd obviously pick IM today.

Oh and agreed, his first 15 caps or so, if you took away a 9/9 or 10/10 kicking performance for Ireland against Fiji or Samoa (apols for failing memory here) in the RDS, Sexton was kicking less than 50% for Ireland. People would have shot ROG for less than 80%.

Regarding the mental side of the game that you have questions about over Jackson, I agree but that's the thing. if you told someone in May 2000 that ROG would go on to be capped 125+ times, tour thrice with the Lions, be named Heino play of the first 15 years of the comp, winning it twice and have the testicular fortitude to win two games on consecutive weeknds with drop goals, there would have been many to question your sanity.

People forget that only about 10% (if that) of players are like BOD or POC, the others learn to be winners by losing and learning from it, gaining experience and testing themselves weeke in week out. ROG is a winner but less in the 'born' mould more in the 'made' sense but he had many weaknesses in his game that he himself and his coaches too, refused to hide. ROG was never stuck out on the wing on opposition ball or hidden in some other way. He stood his post and was run over. And over agin. And got back up. Targeted for each and every one of his 125 Test caps and 200+ Munster games and had a 14 year pro career. That's balls right there.It is easy to always showcase what you're great at and forget your weaknesses. ROG didn't do that and I hope PJ doesn't either.

He is so young and has many strings to his bow and he and Madigan and JJ will hopefully be providing us with many a (positive!) selection dilemna over the coming years. This is the depth we've craved for the past 5 or 6 years, so we do not have to as patient, but we do not have to be super rash either.

"Testicular fortitude"
That's the best thing I have heard in a long while!

rodders wrote:Notch I didn't mean Jackson lacks mental strength per se, thats the wrong phrase. He's obviously shown an abundance of it so far in his short career, having been thrown in the deep end at Ulster and the way he bounced back from last seasons HEC final.

I'm not sure he is a guy who can control games and also come up with big pressure place kicks. I know you disagree but I'm not convinced. He may well be able to but to me the jury is still out but there is plenty of time. That was what I meant.

Time will tell with the place kicking. It's a seperate discipline but one that can affect a 10s all-round game mentally. Why I thought he was rushed in the Six Nations. I think as a 10 he played some good stuff and was the best outhalf once Sexton went down but we had maybe as many as four more consistent goal kickers including McFadden and Kidney was a fool not to see that. He needs to get time to work on it- again I would have favoured him doing that against Canada away than in a Six Nations! 

I actually think he controls games nicely for Ulster. If you watch Ulster when he isn't there, but Pienaar is, It's not pretty at all. We're loose and much less coherent mainly because Pienaar is much, much less comfortable at 10 but also because we only have one organiser in the halves and not two. I have said many times in the face of much scepticism that I think he is the general for Ulster. Pienaar is a key organiser too but Jackson is beginning to over-take him as the main decision maker in the partnership. At one point he was just a link now he is making all the calls for what we do off first phase, telling Ruan when he wants it and when he doesn't and making all the backline calls. Jackson runs the game for us and when he's not there Pienaar does.

Pienaar is still a player who will step in and take charge when required and of course we'd be fairly idiotic not to use his kicking game to its fullest extent whoever is at 10. He's still a massively key decision maker, but its now a balanced partnership of equals not a senior and junior player.

Totally agree debators. In fact its not really a debate I feel strongly about - this isn't ROG v Sexton part 2.

I like things about Jacksons game and things about Madigans. If they are playing well then I'm glad to see either play. They are two young guys who can play with the ball in hand. Madigan obviously has a bit extra in attack but Jacko is a creative player too. Jackson given his age may well have the higher ceiling ultimately but Madigan has the age just now for me. Thats my take on things...

Notch wrote:

SecretFly wrote:Madigan has had the one shot at 10 against America and took all the points that gave Ireland the win, however close that win was. But still some people here have seen enough. Get him off, he can't cut it at this level.

So I'm saying if we're all honest in our analysis, then let's give Madigan the same shot as Jackson has had.  Then let's see Jackson again by all means.  But even handedness must be seen to operate in this debate or I'll begin to think there is another flavour to it all.

Nonsense. I've been saying since it became obvious that Kidney wasn't leading this tour that it should be used to give as many players a chance as possible including Madigan- that it should be two different teams for the two tests and let the best players keep the shirt. I argued that Madigan should have started ahead of Jackson in the Six Nations, should have been higher up in the pecking order, and I stand by it.

We've made the wrong call twice on Jackson imo. We should have held him back for the must-win games in February and given him first caps in the development games in June! We're completely ass backwards about the whole thing. I feel like he and Madigan both earned the right to get a start and showcase themselves at the end of the year. We should have had another game on this tour.

Well, if it's nonsense, it ain't of my doing.  The journey of this thread is told above.  It's all very well saying what you thought back in February or March, Notch.  Even your preferment for holding Jackson back instead of giving him his go during the Six Nations.  

That's all fair enough, but it didn't happen that way. Therefore, the dynamics of the current USA/Canada tour is different.  If we're looking at selections and this is what the tour is for then nope, it isn't a level playing field.  Neither is it "let's pretend the two of them are starting from scratch again and give them a game each".

It hasn't panned out that way in reality and Jackson already has three hot-house games under his belt to get familiar with the intensity needed and the composure that was necessary for International.  Now it's Madigan's turn with two games.

I see fairness in that.  You don't.  Fine.  We disagree on it.  But dropping Madigan now, after a win with a struggle, is equal to dropping Jackson back in the 6N after Scotland.  Were you arguing for that to happen back then?  Dropping him now might be put down to just strictly coaching business and getting a look at both players - but the player being dropped wouldn't see it that way, and neither would his confidence levels.

I disagree. You tell them both they'll get a start and some time off the bench before hand and you deliver it both players go away feeling they had a fair crack and most importantly the new coach gets to observe them for an equal amount of time.

I would have went with Jackson but i certainly dont think its the worst call in that team. There are plenty of others im just  about

Madigan hasn't been dropped fly. In that case so has Olding, who was arguably our best back against the USA.

This tour is about development and building depth in the absence of some front line players that is why there has been rotation.

I'm not saying I agree with the selections but people are reading too much into it. The management will want to give everyone some game time.

rodders wrote:Madigan hasn't been dropped fly. In that case so has Olding, who was arguably our best back against the USA.

This tour is about development and building depth in the absence of some front line players that is why there has been rotation.

I'm not saying I agree with the selections but people are reading too much into it. The management will want to give everyone some game time.

???  I know he hasn't been dropped, rodders.  That was me saying that's the vibe I'm getting from some here - that he should have been.

The tour is what it is, and none of us are part of it so none of us know what it is about.  We have our opinions, but claiming to know what the framework of the tour is is going a little above our expertise in here

If Jackson comes on after 60 minutes, if he comes back on straight after the half time break, if he comes on after 15 minutes - so be it, I hope he does enough to help us win and win with style and by a lot.  Kiss will decided what happens, whether in heavy consultation with Schmidt or not (I think Schmidt is a man of honour and actually hasn't been stepping on Kiss's toes, albeit the media like to construct the story that he probably is dictating policy now)  Anyway, I'm fine with whoever is picked as long as they perform to the best of their ability whilst wearing green - something Mr boy wonder Lions recruit Zebo managed not to do against USA!

I don't care who gets chosen as long as I think they can hack it.  I still say Jackson has had three outings to familiarise himself and Madigan deserves more than one before the more important AI games.  Nobody knows who will be injured by then or who will have lost some form so substantial experience for the two Sexton understudies is important.

So, the midnight shift Nation is back on duty.

Am I the only one staying up for the game tonight? Flagging big time here.

Didn't see you there fly!

7 minutes late in starting coverage... lucky it's still 0-0

what's going on here?..is this highlights?

:laugh:It's USA replay...I'm tired!!!!

links at all? i'm in UK for once and its the time ireland are playing back in america!

I've left you something that might work,wolfball.. private

Mon Maddser, get em over the line!

Peedur O Maahonee. Man.

The ref stopped an Irish maul so he could give Canada a warning!

Great couple if bits of play from Madigan!

Any score so far?

Great couple if bits of play from Madigan!

POM has some temper!

Canada 9 - 12 Ireland.

Needed pts there. They will go in with their heads high now. 

Fair play to em. 

We really should put these away by 20 pts or more. 

Is Schmidt officially in control yet?

So another try filled game then?

He needs to contain the temper.  He won't get away with Pro12 kinda reffing at International too much.  Especially if he's the one who develops the reputation as habitual hothead rather than just an innocent guy wots wrong been done on.

The Boss wrote:POM has some temper!

He is the best forward on the field again though.

Madigan is having a good game. Canada hanging on but if Ireland keep it up I fancy they could score 3 or 4 in the second half.

I love POMs ultra-commitment though. He's young yet but he's here to stay. He has a fierce will to win. A born  Pro. He will learn to control it.  Really impressed with him. Munster to the core. 

Reminds me of Quinny when he was young.

Oh I agree. I love POMs fury...on a professional, will-to-indulge-completely-and-emotionally.

But he just has to be sure to judge any particular ref's patience.

Aye POM is having a good game. I don't think the temper is a bad thing but at certain times it needs controlled better. The main thing to come from this tour is all of your auld fella peer pressure forced Madigan into getting rid of his trendsetting hair!

Phooksake lads...

Shape falling away for Ireland again. Kicking no chase. Pace from Ireland just isn't enough in general to sting Canada. We need to play faster...you can't do plod and hope to get an easy time at International anymore. We're not reponding to the uptake of pace from other sides. This is a Kiss Smal side still playing.

Good try!

Think you nailed it there Fly. 

Must up the tempo. Boss & Madigan the main men.

Hmmm...more like it!! Don't let me have to tell you guys again! Keep it up...

I still havent seen a try. Time-delay in the Dam. 

Cant wait...

forward pass of course..but...we'll take it....

Wooooooooooooo! 

Nice one Locky. Un-Locked the defence there. 

Good try Darren.

TG4 is just a green screen now on my telly, and PC wouldn't play ball. I saw mcfaddens score on replay, was there another?

You're a try behind there, I think Gibbo...

Oh, maybe it was cave I saw score

Ah here. Im 4 mins behind (ja, I know...) Ill post later dahlinks...

Darren's first, Mc Faddens second....

'Boss & Madigan the main men'


Give me strength.

14 - 26

Excellent Devin! The boy is manning-up at last. 

Someone's had a wurd.

POM getting seriously wound up. He seems kind of easy.