Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

by debaters1 Fri 14 Jun 2013, 3:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

rodders wrote:Consider my roll slowed...

I don't think Jackson is great. I think he is good though and his distribution is excellent, better even than Sextons, he has good pace and is a solid defender. I'm not sure that he has the mental strength or personality to be a top class 10 and boss games but at only 21 its hard to judge and he has time.

I don't accept though that he has been selected on anything other than merit or that his contributions so far for Ireland have been anything other than positive.

If you judged Sexton on his goal kicking then he is a mediocre player. Except he isn't mediocre, he's top class.

Madigan is the second best 10 in Ireland right now, I think nearly everyone agrees, but in February this wasn't necessarily the case.

This right here ^^^ 100% true. Had an argument with my sister who is a Leinster fan (we're an odd family, Cork father, Kilkenny mother, living in Dublin I was born in Belgium) about this at the time. madigan was in good form in Feb and has shown he can play 10 but usually (at that point) it was almost exclusively Rabo amd not against an Ulster or Munster or Ospreys type side whereas PJ had played a Heino 1/4 in Thomond and helped Ulster win as well as the semi and final loss. So totally earned and is in credit for his 6 nations game too. But if Kidney were making the decision now, he'd obviously pick IM today.

Oh and agreed, his first 15 caps or so, if you took away a 9/9 or 10/10 kicking performance for Ireland against Fiji or Samoa (apols for failing memory here) in the RDS, Sexton was kicking less than 50% for Ireland. People would have shot ROG for less than 80%.

Regarding the mental side of the game that you have questions about over Jackson, I agree but that's the thing. if you told someone in May 2000 that ROG would go on to be capped 125+ times, tour thrice with the Lions, be named Heino play of the first 15 years of the comp, winning it twice and have the testicular fortitude to win two games on consecutive weeknds with drop goals, there would have been many to question your sanity.

People forget that only about 10% (if that) of players are like BOD or POC, the others learn to be winners by losing and learning from it, gaining experience and testing themselves weeke in week out. ROG is a winner but less in the 'born' mould more in the 'made' sense but he had many weaknesses in his game that he himself and his coaches too, refused to hide. ROG was never stuck out on the wing on opposition ball or hidden in some other way. He stood his post and was run over. And over agin. And got back up. Targeted for each and every one of his 125 Test caps and 200+ Munster games and had a 14 year pro career. That's balls right there.It is easy to always showcase what you're great at and forget your weaknesses. ROG didn't do that and I hope PJ doesn't either.

He is so young and has many strings to his bow and he and Madigan and JJ will hopefully be providing us with many a (positive!) selection dilemna over the coming years. This is the depth we've craved for the past 5 or 6 years, so we do not have to as patient, but we do not have to be super rash either.

by **rodders** Tue 18 Jun 2013, 9:25 pm

Don't mind Toner actually, he's decent enough you know and much improved.... not quite Mal O'Kelly mind you..

Ross, Kilcoyne and McFadden are bums though. Sorry...

by Guest Tue 18 Jun 2013, 9:47 pm

Thanks for the link, Sin e. Didn't know there was another doing the rounds. Even better than the previous clip, methinks. Had me laughing anyway Very Happy

by SecretFly Tue 18 Jun 2013, 10:33 pm

Less YouTube rapping, more absolute dedication to perfection on the field.

Wales and England are in the final of the JWC, after England running and punching the socks off NZ. Meanwhile, Ireland keep doing what comes naturally to them - losing to France.

They now have to meet Australia again - Australia's chance to show what they're really made of - not much, beaten by Argentina; but they will think time for revenge on drained Ireland anyway. We've done our one or two games per campaign over-achieving. Downhill with a bang looks like it's round the corner...just on cue.

Depressing night really, realising that we can't have a consistent campaign at any level. We're always playing catch up in physicality and inventiveness just when we think we've reached the standards of others in Europe. And then we always try to explain it all away by claiming a lack of depth. Wales have less players than us at every level. No excuses work on me. It's just a sub-standard approach to developing hard edged professionally athletic players, despite all the talk of academies churning out 'quality'.

Nope, England and Wales are taking this level of seriousness about young players reaching serious levels of competitiveness to new heights as two of our senior players rap by a pool (one of them having subsequently given zilch of himself to the Irish cause against USA)

We need to get seriously real about rugby in Ireland - the world is moving on again just as we think we're catching up.

Back to the lads by the pool having the craic.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 18 Jun 2013, 10:51 pm

I think Toner could come good for us. I am willing to wait a few years and live in very quiet hope. I think he could be a good option. Also I think it is safe to say we get bullied a lot in the front 5 and yet are not mobile/clever/skillful enough to outplay teams, if we can't outpower them (don't see much power coming down the tracks) I'd like some skillful lads.

I'm not saying Toner is the second coming, what I am saying is, I must have watched every game he has played in the last 2 years and I think he is being underrated by many and that I think he has something that could be utilised in the future if he continues to develop the way he is. He could well be first choice with McCarthy in late 13/14.

Either way, unless a lock comes out of somewhere the way Henderson (lock/flanker???) has then we could be using Devin more often than many expect if certain lads are injured or disappear.

Depth chart:

POC
Ryan
McCarthy
Henderson (lock/flanker??)
Tuohy
Toner

by **rodders** Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:09 pm

ok finally got round to watching the Canada game....

Very impressed with Madigan and O'Mahony who seem to be running the show.

Cave was one of the best players on the pitch so the criticism is bizarre...by contrast McFadden, the tries apart was pretty poor, missing some awful tackles. Downey was ok and Trimble had one of his best games in a green jersey.

Touhy and Toner were both excellent and make a very good partnership.

O'Donnell showed the value of a natural 7, as did Trimble and Downey show the value of a couple of big men in the 3/4s. Both 9's had good games.

Overall a very good and Leinster like performance.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:17 pm

Rodders- McFadden missed one tackle?? Headscratch

He also ran for 70 metres which is pretty good no?

by SecretFly Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:20 pm

McFadden was poor? He was my Man of the Match. Not just for his tries. And didn't someone watching also agree with me in giving him the official MOTM?

by The Great Aukster Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:20 pm

Pete - I'm not sure what stats you're using but McF missed more than one tackle, just as Ross carried for at least 5m in one run!

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:23 pm

Ausker-

These are the ones I am using. What are you using?
http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/173969.html

by **profitius** Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:24 pm

SecretFly wrote:Less YouTube rapping, more absolute dedication to perfection on the field.

Wales and England are in the final of the JWC, after England running and punching the socks off NZ. Meanwhile, Ireland keep doing what comes naturally to them - losing to France.

They now have to meet Australia again - Australia's chance to show what they're really made of - not much, beaten by Argentina; but they will think time for revenge on drained Ireland anyway. We've done our one or two games per campaign over-achieving. Downhill with a bang looks like it's round the corner...just on cue.

Depressing night really, realising that we can't have a consistent campaign at any level. We're always playing catch up in physicality and inventiveness just when we think we've reached the standards of others in Europe. And then we always try to explain it all away by claiming a lack of depth. Wales have less players than us at every level. No excuses work on me. It's just a sub-standard approach to developing hard edged professionally athletic players, despite all the talk of academies churning out 'quality'.

Nope, England and Wales are taking this level of seriousness about young players reaching serious levels of competitiveness to new heights as two of our senior players rap by a pool (one of them having subsequently given zilch of himself to the Irish cause against USA)

We need to get seriously real about rugby in Ireland - the world is moving on again just as we think we're catching up.

Back to the lads by the pool having the craic.

Bit harsh fly. I fully agree with the rapping and the traditional lose to France though.

We not have a top quality coach, one of the top coaches in the world, as he has proved with Leinster. Hes a man who will have an overall strategy and style of play to get the best out of the players. We hadn't that since EOS but under him the players had to operate under strict instructions.

The U20s were a bit unlucky with the tough group and on top of that they were a bit unlucky last season to get SA in their group. Quality players are being produced and in more quantity than ever. It'll take a few years for it to have an effect on the senior side but theres signs of it already.

by The Great Aukster Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:24 pm

SF - McF was my MOTM by virtue of scoring three tries, and a hattrick has to carry some weight, even though the rest of his game wasn't perfect.

by The Great Aukster Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:26 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ausker-

These are the ones I am using. What are you using?
http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/173969.html

None. Just my own observations of the game.

by **profitius** Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:27 pm

rodders wrote:Don't mind Toner actually, he's decent enough you know and much improved.... not quite Mal O'Kelly mind you..

Ross, Kilcoyne and McFadden are bums though. Sorry...

Kilcoyne is a young prop and this is his first season. He had a great season for Munster, it hasn't translated to international level yet but he deserves some time.
McFadden is around the same level as Trimble. You wouldn't call him a bum! Wink

Ross, well he is getting on a bit. Theres noone to replace him yet.

by SecretFly Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:29 pm

profitius wrote:

Bit harsh fly. I fully agree with the rapping and the traditional lose to France though.

We not have a top quality coach, one of the top coaches in the world, as he has proved with Leinster. Hes a man who will have an overall strategy and style of play to get the best out of the players. We hadn't that since EOS but under him the players had to operate under strict instructions.

The U20s were a bit unlucky with the tough group and on top of that they were a bit unlucky last season to get SA in their group. Quality players are being produced and in more quantity than ever. It'll take a few years for it to have an effect on the senior side but theres signs of it already.

I'm in a harsh mood, profitius. Wink

It don't happen often...but I'm in one tonight.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:36 pm

The Great Aukster wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ausker-

These are the ones I am using. What are you using?
http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/173969.html

None. Just my own observations of the game.

I watched the game and din't see McFadden miss many tackles or Ross carry for over 5 metres. I may watch it back again but pretty confident I (and the stats) have it right on this one for such simple things as these.

by **profitius** Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:37 pm

SecretFly wrote:
profitius wrote:

Bit harsh fly. I fully agree with the rapping and the traditional lose to France though.

We not have a top quality coach, one of the top coaches in the world, as he has proved with Leinster. Hes a man who will have an overall strategy and style of play to get the best out of the players. We hadn't that since EOS but under him the players had to operate under strict instructions.

The U20s were a bit unlucky with the tough group and on top of that they were a bit unlucky last season to get SA in their group. Quality players are being produced and in more quantity than ever. It'll take a few years for it to have an effect on the senior side but theres signs of it already.

I'm in a harsh mood, profitius. It don't happen often...but I'm in one tonight.

I thought your account might have been hacked. thumbsup

by The Great Aukster Tue 18 Jun 2013, 11:52 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ausker-

These are the ones I am using. What are you using?
http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/173969.html

None. Just my own observations of the game.

I watched the game and din't see McFadden miss many tackles or Ross carry for over 5 metres. I may watch it back again but pretty confident I (and the stats) have it right on this one for such simple things as these.

Don't waste your time Pete, I'm not going to argue. I'm only going on the thoughts I had during the game as I wasn't overly impressed by McFadden's defence and thought Ross did carry in the loose (notable because it is so unusual).

by SecretFly Wed 19 Jun 2013, 12:00 am

Ross carried 5 but panted, wheezed and gasped many more. He should do a McCaw and demand a sabbatical next season

by Sin é Wed 19 Jun 2013, 12:44 am

I think you are a bit harsh on the U20s Fly. I think that playing the ABs last Thursday might have taken its toll on them (and also softened the ABs up for the rest of the competition).

by Golden Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:23 am

Anyone have a link for the Canada game? Havent seen any live rugby over the last few weeks, only highlights of the US game.

Did no other TH get much game time? or Marmion?

Also anyone have the highlights for the Tbilisi cup?

by **rodders** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 9:14 am

SecretFly wrote:McFadden was poor? He was my Man of the Match. Not just for his tries. And didn't someone watching also agree with me in giving him the official MOTM?

Yeah he was Fly (and Pete), in defence anyways. The tackle he missed was a lot worse than the one Wade is getting slated for for the lions. The guy simply can't defend and is not a winger of any sort of calibre.

What the stats don't show is that in defence he always comes narrow and leaves acres of space out wide. When he does attempt tackles he goes high and gets regularly bumped off. He has a good work ethic and tries his best but he is a liability at this level. The ABs ruthlessly exposed this last year and the number of tries scored down his channel is no coincidence.

Thats not to not acknowledge his ability to pop up and score tries, usually through the middle, but he isn't an iternational winger.

MOTM for me was Madigan, who looks a natural at this level. Both locks impressed also and O'Donnell stood out. Trimble was near faultless on the right and O'Mahoney had a good game too. Tries apart Mcfadden was fairly poor and there were much better performers imo.

by **rodders** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 9:24 am

The Great Aukster wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
The Great Aukster wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Ausker-

These are the ones I am using. What are you using?
http://www.espn.co.uk/scrum/rugby/match/173969.html

None. Just my own observations of the game.

I watched the game and din't see McFadden miss many tackles or Ross carry for over 5 metres. I may watch it back again but pretty confident I (and the stats) have it right on this one for such simple things as these.

Don't waste your time Pete, I'm not going to argue. I'm only going on the thoughts I had during the game as I wasn't overly impressed by McFadden's defence and thought Ross did carry in the loose (notable because it is so unusual).

It's interesting how people interpret the game v the stats - according to the above Cave had 1 try, ran 40 metres (in half as many runs as McFadden made 70), missed no tackles - Downey made 10/0 tackles... yet some people thought they had poor games.

If O'Driscoll had played like Cave everyone would be saying he was back to his best.

15/0 for O'Donnell in defence and 44 meters run is exceptional and confirms my thoughts that he was the best and most influential of the backrowers.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 19 Jun 2013, 11:20 am

Rodders-

A few things.

1) most of caves metres were gained by his try where he didn't have to beat anyone
2) mcfaddens missed tackle was very poor
3) I don't understand how people don't know this, you ALWAYS defend from the inside out not the other way around. There is NO exception to this. It would be like saying we have their winger and 15 marked on the right wing but we are missing a pillar defender. Absolutely ridiculous. If you don't have the numbers in defense you take the man closed to the ruck and work out, then begin a soft drift. McFadden got slated against the all blacks when very few of those tries were his fault. Yes they were on his wing but the AB's did well to create overlaps and he made the right call.

When you base this on, defend in to out and apply it to the kiwi tries you will see this perfectly.

by **rodders** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 11:35 am

Sorry Pete but that is nonsence - there are all sorts of defensive systems where this is not the case. Regardless of the system you can't absolve a player from totally abandoning responsibility for defending their channel.

The bottom line is McFadden is reguarly caught out in defence...whether its a mistimed shoot, a one on one tackle or just out of position. I can think of countless examples over the past few seasons, way more than any other player.

by **profitius** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 12:00 pm

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Rodders-

A few things.

1) most of caves metres were gained by his try where he didn't have to beat anyone
2) mcfaddens missed tackle was very poor
3) I don't understand how people don't know this, you ALWAYS defend from the inside out not the other way around. There is NO exception to this. It would be like saying we have their winger and 15 marked on the right wing but we are missing a pillar defender. Absolutely ridiculous. If you don't have the numbers in defense you take the man closed to the ruck and work out, then begin a soft drift. McFadden got slated against the all blacks when very few of those tries were his fault. Yes they were on his wing but the AB's did well to create overlaps and he made the right call.

When you base this on, defend in to out and apply it to the kiwi tries you will see this perfectly.

I've seen teams defend from the outside in.

by ME-109 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:20 pm

Sorry Rodders I thought TOD was ordinary as was KMcL. No real influence and just had their cameos.

by GunsGerms Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:35 pm

profitius wrote:
pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Rodders-

A few things.

1) most of caves metres were gained by his try where he didn't have to beat anyone
2) mcfaddens missed tackle was very poor
3) I don't understand how people don't know this, you ALWAYS defend from the inside out not the other way around. There is NO exception to this. It would be like saying we have their winger and 15 marked on the right wing but we are missing a pillar defender. Absolutely ridiculous. If you don't have the numbers in defense you take the man closed to the ruck and work out, then begin a soft drift. McFadden got slated against the all blacks when very few of those tries were his fault. Yes they were on his wing but the AB's did well to create overlaps and he made the right call.

When you base this on, defend in to out and apply it to the kiwi tries you will see this perfectly.

I've seen teams defend from the outside in.

Id say the Lions will try to do this v Australia in an effort to keep the Aussie attack narrow and away from their back three.

by **profitius** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:36 pm

Schmidts arrival will bring the best out in Cave and I think Schmidt will favour Cave over Earls in the center because he likes players with good handling and passing ability. However there are other contenders for that position when BOD leaves. Olding might yet end up there.

by **profitius** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:38 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
profitius wrote:
I've seen teams defend from the outside in.

Id say the Lions will try to do this v Australia in an effort to keep the Aussie attack narrow and away from their back three.

Wales does it against Ireland, especially when ROG plays. They block off the outside channel, lets ROG run with the ball and nail him in the tackle. Of course Ireland hadn't the tactical know-how to adapt but thats a different matter..

by GunsGerms Wed 19 Jun 2013, 2:42 pm

profitius wrote:
Wales does it against Ireland, especially when ROG plays. They block off the outside channel, lets ROG run with the ball and nail him in the tackle. Of course Ireland hadn't the tactical know-how to adapt but thats a different matter..

Under Kidney there was never a plan B. The was a time when it seemed all the opposition had to do to beat Ireland was employ a blitz defense. Very frustrating.

by Sin é Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:44 pm

profitius wrote:Schmidts arrival will bring the best out in Cave and I think Schmidt will favour Cave over Earls in the center because he likes players with good handling and passing ability. However there are other contenders for that position when BOD leaves. Olding might yet end up there.

There is nothing Schmidt can do about Cave's lack of pace and he needs to be able to break the odd line or three. I'll eat my hat if Cave is preferred to a (fit) Earls.

by Sin é Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:45 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
profitius wrote:
Wales does it against Ireland, especially when ROG plays. They block off the outside channel, lets ROG run with the ball and nail him in the tackle. Of course Ireland hadn't the tactical know-how to adapt but thats a different matter..

Under Kidney there was never a plan B. The was a time when it seemed all the opposition had to do to beat Ireland was employ a blitz defense. Very frustrating.

Schmidt's Leinster always found the Osprey's blitz defence difficult to overcome. They also always found the Munster defence difficult as well even when Munster were really poor.

by **Notch** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:48 pm

No sense in slagging off YouTube rapping- they train maybe a maximum of two sessions a day, morning and afternoon and those are relatively short, intense sessions either side of lunch. Even factoring in lunch and recovery and team meeting I'm guesstimating their working day is at most five hours.

So they are in a hotel on the other side of the world with 19 hours a day free- I'd much rather they were having a bit of craic with their teammates in their long periods of downtime than sitting in their rooms with their face buried in a computer screen. These kind of tour hijinks are good for team-building.

by **rodders** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:51 pm

Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:Schmidts arrival will bring the best out in Cave and I think Schmidt will favour Cave over Earls in the center because he likes players with good handling and passing ability. However there are other contenders for that position when BOD leaves. Olding might yet end up there.

There is nothing Schmidt can do about Cave's lack of pace and he needs to be able to break the odd line or three. I'll eat my hat if Cave is preferred to a (fit) Earls.

I'll buy you the hat Smile

by GunsGerms Wed 19 Jun 2013, 3:56 pm

Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
profitius wrote:
Wales does it against Ireland, especially when ROG plays. They block off the outside channel, lets ROG run with the ball and nail him in the tackle. Of course Ireland hadn't the tactical know-how to adapt but thats a different matter..

Under Kidney there was never a plan B. The was a time when it seemed all the opposition had to do to beat Ireland was employ a blitz defense. Very frustrating.

Schmidt's Leinster always found the Osprey's blitz defence difficult to overcome. They also always found the Munster defence difficult as well even when Munster were really poor.

Its been a while since Leinster struggled v Munster.

by ME-109 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:03 pm

Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
profitius wrote:
Wales does it against Ireland, especially when ROG plays. They block off the outside channel, lets ROG run with the ball and nail him in the tackle. Of course Ireland hadn't the tactical know-how to adapt but thats a different matter..

Under Kidney there was never a plan B. The was a time when it seemed all the opposition had to do to beat Ireland was employ a blitz defense. Very frustrating.

Schmidt's Leinster always found the Osprey's blitz defence difficult to overcome. They also always found the Munster defence difficult as well even when Munster were really poor.

Not a good argument DK clearly didn't know what he was doing, the players were automatons (even though that is clearly not how DK coaches) and Joe the new messiah will fix everything.

by Sin é Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:13 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:
GunsGerms wrote:
profitius wrote:
Wales does it against Ireland, especially when ROG plays. They block off the outside channel, lets ROG run with the ball and nail him in the tackle. Of course Ireland hadn't the tactical know-how to adapt but thats a different matter..

Under Kidney there was never a plan B. The was a time when it seemed all the opposition had to do to beat Ireland was employ a blitz defense. Very frustrating.

Schmidt's Leinster always found the Osprey's blitz defence difficult to overcome. They also always found the Munster defence difficult as well even when Munster were really poor.

Its been a while since Leinster struggled v Munster.

All penalties - very few tries. Leinster went 4/5 games tryless against Munster while Munster usually got a couple. (I take it you are conceeding that Schmidt had no Plan B to get past the Osprey's blitz defence)!

by Sin é Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:25 pm

Notch wrote:No sense in slagging off YouTube rapping- they train maybe a maximum of two sessions a day, morning and afternoon and those are relatively short, intense sessions either side of lunch. Even factoring in lunch and recovery and team meeting I'm guesstimating their working day is at most five hours.

So they are in a hotel on the other side of the world with 19 hours a day free- I'd much rather they were having a bit of craic with their teammates in their long periods of downtime than sitting in their rooms with their face buried in a computer screen. These kind of tour hijinks are good for team-building.

The Ireland team's sports psychologist (Enda McNulty - the most intense sports person ever when he was playing) seems to approve of their antics.

He tweeted: Enda McNulty ‏@Enda_McNulty 16h
It was an absolute pleasure being on tour with these guys @SimonZebo @paddyjackson10!! #YouTubeSensations https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xy0fuT

Short interview here with McNulty talking about 'Work hard, train hard but rest harder'.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jyx-UKFWIlE

by Sin é Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:32 pm

rodders wrote:
Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:Schmidts arrival will bring the best out in Cave and I think Schmidt will favour Cave over Earls in the center because he likes players with good handling and passing ability. However there are other contenders for that position when BOD leaves. Olding might yet end up there.

There is nothing Schmidt can do about Cave's lack of pace and he needs to be able to break the odd line or three. I'll eat my hat if Cave is preferred to a (fit) Earls.

I'll buy you the hat

Its ok, I have one and I won't be eating it Very Happy

You expecting Schmidt to drop BOD then for Cave next season? Very Happy

thats going to make Cave popular in Dubland Whistle

by **profitius** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 4:38 pm

Notch wrote:No sense in slagging off YouTube rapping- they train maybe a maximum of two sessions a day, morning and afternoon and those are relatively short, intense sessions either side of lunch. Even factoring in lunch and recovery and team meeting I'm guesstimating their working day is at most five hours.

So they are in a hotel on the other side of the world with 19 hours a day free- I'd much rather they were having a bit of craic with their teammates in their long periods of downtime than sitting in their rooms with their face buried in a computer screen. These kind of tour hijinks are good for team-building.

The main problem I have with it is the choice of music. Very Happy

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed 19 Jun 2013, 5:03 pm

Defending out to in and shooting up on the outside (banana defense) are two completely different things. They aren't in the same category.

If your opposition broke down the shortside and they had a 10-13-15-11 running at your defense which only had a 12 and a 14 how would you defend?

The 12 would take the 10 and the 14 would come in to take the 13. They would then try to drift to use the sideline as an extra defender while also buying covering defenders time to get back.

If your 14 stayed in his channel and marked the opposition 11 well then the opposition 10 would fix your 12 and release the opposition 13 through a massive hole in the defense.

There are two buzz phrases for the first (correct) method

1) using the sideline as an extra defender
2) force your man to pass to see if he can (more likely to be a knockon, forward pass or dropped ball if you make the opposition pass 3 times rather than once)

Sorry if this seems forceful but this is not an opinion, this is the right way to set up a defensive alignment and to "pick your man".

Coming out of the line (blitz/shooter/banana/etc) are all done after this system has been done. They are secondary. Very good secondary strategies but if you use it as a primary then you will have large holes either side of the ruck but you will be covering the wing.

Pillars are always the first in defense for this very reason

by Gibson Wed 19 Jun 2013, 6:34 pm

Sin é wrote:
profitius wrote:Schmidts arrival will bring the best out in Cave and I think Schmidt will favour Cave over Earls in the center because he likes players with good handling and passing ability. However there are other contenders for that position when BOD leaves. Olding might yet end up there.

There is nothing Schmidt can do about Cave's lack of pace and he needs to be able to break the odd line or three. I'll eat my hat if Cave is preferred to a (fit) Earls.

Forfeicsake someone buy Sin a hat. I don't rate either of em as future fixed options, but Cave will be given his chance under Schmidt, for sure. He is his kind of player. He cant be any worse than Earls, whose Love-Da kept him in the Irish frame beyond all logic. Not an international class winger or centre Im afraid. Never fulfilled his early promise.

Da is gone Keifer, no more freebies son.

by **profitius** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:12 pm

Earls should be fullback or wing IMO. Its a no brainer. His passing lets him down sometimes but he is the best runner in the Ireland squad. As a center he is a dangerous player and underrated by many and any mistake is pounced on.

He needs a good pre season and hopefully his confidence will come back next season because he is a confidence player.

by gleesonisgod Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:58 pm

[url=/t45371p150-ireland-tour-of-usa-canada#2137645]Re: Ireland Tour of USA & Canada[/url]
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by [url=/u3873]profitius[/url] Today at 8:12 pm

Earls should be fullback or wing IMO. Its a no brainer. His passing lets him down sometimes but he is the best runner in the Ireland squad. As a center he is a dangerous player and underrated by many and any mistake is pounced on.

He needs a good pre season and hopefully his confidence will come back next season because he is a confidence player.

Agreed but I don't think he will have an international career unless he gets game time for Munster on the wing. I'd have him ahead of L Fitz, McFadden, Gilroy, and possibly Trims, if he was playing in WC 2011 form.

by gleesonisgod Wed 19 Jun 2013, 8:59 pm

Also how do you quote?

by Sin é Wed 19 Jun 2013, 9:25 pm

profitius wrote:Earls should be fullback or wing IMO. Its a no brainer. His passing lets him down sometimes but he is the best runner in the Ireland squad. As a center he is a dangerous player and underrated by many and any mistake is pounced on.

He needs a good pre season and hopefully his confidence will come back next season because he is a confidence player.

Its a no brainer that he continues to play in the centre (bearing in mind that there are plenty of outside backs and fullbacks* around, but particularly in Munster). The centre are the two positions that Munster & Ireland have a hole in. Downey is getting on and Laulala has only 1 more season on his contract and its highly unlikely that he will be staying on as he is over 30 and NIQ.

Its a no brainer that Earls remains playing in the centre.

Munster have Zebo, Murphy, Jones, Hurley, Conway, O'Mahony.

by **Notch** Wed 19 Jun 2013, 9:57 pm

If Earls stays at 13 it's a no brainer we have playing at centre Smile

by ME-109 Wed 19 Jun 2013, 10:29 pm

Notch wrote:If Earls stays at 13 it's a no brainer we have playing at centre

Better than a no hoper in Cave....

by **profitius** Thu 20 Jun 2013, 12:43 am

Sin, I think there are centers finally coming through. Marshall, Olding and it looks like Henshaw will be playing more at 13 next season. Downey and Cave can also do a job filling in beforew the next generation of centers come through. You also have Chris Farrell who has potential and JJ Hanrahan can play in the center. Going into the next world cup Ireland will have no shortage of centers. I have not even mentioned McSharry or Griffin.

gleesonisgod wrote: Also how do you quote?

Just click on the 'quote' button on whatever post you want to. Alternatively you can type [qoute] your message [/qoute] . I spelt quote wrongly there just to show you how its done. If it was spelt correctly a box would appear with 'your message' in it.

by neilthom7 Thu 20 Jun 2013, 1:21 am

ME-109 wrote:
Notch wrote:If Earls stays at 13 it's a no brainer we have playing at centre

Better than a no hoper in Cave....

He's hardly a no hoper now, Earls needs to develop a brain to play in centre, over time he may well do this but until he does he can't play there line breaks are no good if you then mess them up

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