Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

rodders wrote:Consider my roll slowed...

I don't think Jackson is great. I think he is good though and his distribution is excellent, better even than Sextons, he has good pace and is a solid defender. I'm not sure that he has the mental strength or personality to be a top class 10 and boss games but at only 21 its hard to judge and he has time.

I don't accept though that he has been selected on anything other than merit or that his contributions so far for Ireland have been anything other than positive.

If you judged Sexton on his goal kicking then he is a mediocre player. Except he isn't mediocre, he's top class.

Madigan is the second best 10 in Ireland right now, I think nearly everyone agrees, but in February this wasn't necessarily the case.

This right here ^^^ 100% true. Had an argument with my sister who is a Leinster fan (we're an odd family, Cork father, Kilkenny mother, living in Dublin I was born in Belgium) about this at the time. madigan was in good form in Feb and has shown he can play 10 but usually (at that point) it was almost exclusively Rabo amd not against an Ulster or Munster or Ospreys type side whereas PJ had played a Heino 1/4 in Thomond and helped Ulster win as well as the semi and final loss. So totally earned and is in credit for his 6 nations game too. But if Kidney were making the decision now, he'd obviously pick IM today.

Oh and agreed, his first 15 caps or so, if you took away a 9/9 or 10/10 kicking performance for Ireland against Fiji or Samoa (apols for failing memory here) in the RDS, Sexton was kicking less than 50% for Ireland. People would have shot ROG for less than 80%.

Regarding the mental side of the game that you have questions about over Jackson, I agree but that's the thing. if you told someone in May 2000 that ROG would go on to be capped 125+ times, tour thrice with the Lions, be named Heino play of the first 15 years of the comp, winning it twice and have the testicular fortitude to win two games on consecutive weeknds with drop goals, there would have been many to question your sanity.

People forget that only about 10% (if that) of players are like BOD or POC, the others learn to be winners by losing and learning from it, gaining experience and testing themselves weeke in week out. ROG is a winner but less in the 'born' mould more in the 'made' sense but he had many weaknesses in his game that he himself and his coaches too, refused to hide. ROG was never stuck out on the wing on opposition ball or hidden in some other way. He stood his post and was run over. And over agin. And got back up. Targeted for each and every one of his 125 Test caps and 200+ Munster games and had a 14 year pro career. That's balls right there.It is easy to always showcase what you're great at and forget your weaknesses. ROG didn't do that and I hope PJ doesn't either.

He is so young and has many strings to his bow and he and Madigan and JJ will hopefully be providing us with many a (positive!) selection dilemna over the coming years. This is the depth we've craved for the past 5 or 6 years, so we do not have to as patient, but we do not have to be super rash either.

I reckon Earls will be given a go but his error count won't be tolerated the way it was under Kidney.

I think all fans will agree when I say that if Earls sorted out his awareness of support and his passing well then he'd be quite simply an outstanding rugby player and would be one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland

neilthom7 wrote:

ME-109 wrote:

Notch wrote:If Earls stays at 13 it's a no brainer we have playing at centre

Better than a no hoper in Cave....




He's hardly a no hoper now, Earls needs to develop a brain to play in centre, over time he may well do this but until he does he can't play there line breaks are no good if you then mess them up

Thats a load of toss Neil - all Earls needs is to play with someone who has his pace and can keep up with him when he does make a break (like Simon Zebo who has a fairly good tryscoring record from playing outside Earls for Munster).

Nice break here against some of the possible alternatives.
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CkW4yZcwVwE

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I reckon Earls will be given a go but his error count won't be tolerated the way it was under Kidney.

I think all fans will agree when I say that if Earls sorted out his awareness of support and his passing well then he'd be quite simply an outstanding rugby player and would be one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland

Unless the wizard of oz actually exists Earls will never be anything other than mediocre.

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I reckon Earls will be given a go but his error count won't be tolerated the way it was under Kidney.

I think all fans will agree when I say that if Earls sorted out his awareness of support and his passing well then he'd be quite simply an outstanding rugby player and would be one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland

You'd swear by that comment that every rugby player that played for Leinster or Clermont were perfect. For instance, he seemed happy enough to tolerate some very poor discipline and Rob Kearney's defence can be a bit haphazard, not to mention Ferg McFadden's.

rodders wrote:

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I reckon Earls will be given a go but his error count won't be tolerated the way it was under Kidney.

I think all fans will agree when I say that if Earls sorted out his awareness of support and his passing well then he'd be quite simply an outstanding rugby player and would be one of the first names on the team sheet for Ireland

Unless the wizard of oz actually exists Earls will never be anything other than mediocre.

What does that say of this lot then?

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=thjigUCMWwY

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:
If your opposition broke down the shortside and they had a 10-13-15-11 running at your defense which only had a 12 and a 14 how would you defend?

The 12 would take the 10 and the 14 would come in to take the 13. They would then try to drift to use the sideline as an extra defender while also buying covering defenders time to get back.

If your 14 stayed in his channel and marked the opposition 11 well then the opposition 10 would fix your 12 and release the opposition 13 through a massive hole in the defense.

Well Pete I suppose the first issue is why the opposition have a 2 man overlap. Obviously the system has broken down...maybe overcommitting to the ruck.

In this instance the 14 has two options - to shoot in, but in this case he must take man and ball otherwise it is a certain try (Trimble is excellent at this).

Otherwise he needs to push out and trust his inside defender(s) to cover the inside men. Anything else is a defensive error. The cover defense is much more likely to be able to reach the inside men than an outside break down the wing.

There are seperate two issues though:

a) how the cover defense opperates if caught out
b) communictaion and organisation to ensure the cover is in place to avoid the overlap in the first place.

McFadden is good at neither. He tends to come in, miss the tackle and leave the gap on the outside.

Earls has had a lot of good games for Munster at centre, and several bad games, is it his best position? No way in hell in my mind. While I'm annoyed he will be playing there next year (Laulala and Downey finally seemed to be working well), the guy is getting some consistency in a position at least for once. Is he international standard, as a player certainly as a centre well he has had a mixed bag there certainly. I wouldn't be surprised to see him be considered a centre for Munster and a wing for Ireland.

Right now, he has an awful lot to work to do on things, if he wants to become a top centre (we lack options in this spot though)

Thomond wrote:Earls has had a lot of good games for Munster at centre, and several bad games, is it his best position? No way in hell in my mind. While I'm annoyed he will be playing there next year (Laulala and Downey finally seemed to be working well), the guy is getting some consistency in a position at least for once. Is he international standard, as a player certainly as a centre well he has had a mixed bag there certainly. I wouldn't be surprised to see him be considered a centre for Munster and a wing for Ireland.

Right now, he has an awful lot to work to do on things, if he wants to become a top centre (we lack options in this spot though)

Remind me of some of the bad games at centre he has had for Munster?

By the way, 90% of Earls games for Munster have been at centre - the consistency problem has to do with who plays in the centre with him - so far in his short career he has had tipoki, Mafi, Jean de Villiers, Johne Murphy, Paul Warwick, Downey & Laulala!

When we played Leinster two years ago at home he was atrocious, no threat at all (18-9 game), the Ospreys semi that year too (in fairness everyone was shoite then). Cardiff Blues at home this year in Musgrave Park, he was a key part of a malfunctioning and inept backline. You can't seriously think he has been flawless every game?

Can we knock this Earls thing on its head? Its been done to death.

Does anyone have highlights of the canada game? I can only get the full match to TG4. There's nothing on you tube either.

Thomond wrote:When we played Leinster two years ago at home he was atrocious, no threat at all (18-9 game), the Ospreys semi that year too (in fairness everyone was shoite then). Cardiff Blues at home this year in Musgrave Park, he was a key part of a malfunctioning and inept backline. You can't seriously think he has been flawless every game?

The Leinster game - just looked up the stats - Leinster won it with their scrum - Munster front row gave away 5 penalties alone. Looks like the backs didn't get to touch the ball all night and Munster made a huge number of tackles. Munster pack was Horan, Varley, BJ, DOC, MOD, Dave O'Callaghan, POM & Coughlan. Pretty young and inexperienced Munster backrow.

I'd discount this season with Munster as he was injured for most of it. He'd just been out for a month for the Cardiff game - big problem there was Keatley who had a nightmare.

In his 73+7 games & 22 tries for Munster, the only nightmare you claim he has had is against one of the best teams in Europe and one game in a season where he has hardly played at all due to injury!

Perfection doesn't exist.  Balance does.  Balancing a player's attacking ability with his ability to defend.

They'll never be equal - never.  And indeed, they'll often be predicated on the sytle of the coaches.  Ireland drilled their defending hard and in order to make the efforts count, we often did more of it than was reasonably required.  Defensive skills emphasised rather than attacking ones.

McFadden might be less effective as a defender but he's more acclimatised to being an attacker.  He defends because he has to, he attacks because he likes to.

McFadden - 10 starts - 7 tries
Trimble - 38 stats - 12 tries
(I like the attitude of both!!! before I get a 'biased' bullet firedat me )

The coach has to balance the strengths of his players - not chastise them for being less one than the other.  Help them become more of a defender,certainly - but don't drop a freescoring back simply because their defensive stats are iffy.  Team balance.  Schmidt will decide.

BTW, Earls has as much potential to shine under Schmidt's direction as any of the other players who will perhaps be coached by him for a first time.  
Schmidt's tenure is by no means guaranteed to be a success, but I'd be very suprised if he couldn't make any of the Irish players a few percentage points at least more spatially aware than at present.

Sin I can see how Keatley could have been a problem in the Cardiff game, must have been terrible when he was watching from the bench for the whole game, his twitiching must have distracted the players, how he is allowed even sit down there I don't know a total disgrace.



You're saying Earls has never had a bad game for Munster? That is possibly the strangest thing I have ever heard. If he neer had a bad game for Munster then he has already better then BOD right? Earls is an easy scapegoat, and does he get balemd for a lot, absolutely, but you can't tell me that he is flawless and perfect because that is a crock of shoite.

Oh God Thomond no one is saying Earls never had a bad game for Ireland/Munster but he hasn't been a disaster which is what you would think from the posts here.

When was the last time BOD made a clean break or what % of tries has he scored from 1 metre over the last four years.

As Fly says Earls will get his chance, he will be OC for Munster next season (thankfully).

As a Munster supporter you manage to denigrate ROG and now Earls...anyone else?

Just looking a the Lions and Ireland have 4 starters,it would be 6 if i wasn't for injuries o Healy and Bowe.I think the argument that our players aren't as good as the other 6 Nations teams is pretty well refuted.

Rodders in that situation if the 14 stayed out how is our 12 going to cover 3 players.

Defend from the inside out: that is how every player is coached to defend and how every coach is taught to coach in Ireland, new Zealand, everywhere.

There's a reason defenses drift outdated rather than inwards. This is really beginners stuff.

Dod, I defended the guy he gets far too much stick for such little errors, he is an easy scapegoat, but likewise he has had bad games for Munster at centre, and he has had good games. Sin was saying he has never had a bad game, which is a load of bollix. He has a lot ot work on as do all other 13 options, the problem is he has to live up to BOD, which he probably won't (not many will). 


He will get his chance at centre and if he proves he can do a good job at HC level will he deserves a shot like anyone else, I just feel it's not his best positon, and I'm disappointed that Downey and Laulala won't play together when they finally started looking decent.

Nothing I have said isn't true.

Thomond wrote:Sin I can see how Keatley could have been a problem in the Cardiff game, must have been terrible when he was watching from the bench for the whole game, his twitiching must have distracted the players, how he is allowed even sit down there I don't know a total disgrace.

I got the games mixed up - it was Duncan Williams who had the nightmare that night.

You're saying Earls has never had a bad game for Munster? That is possibly the strangest thing I have ever heard. If he neer had a bad game for Munster then he has already better then BOD right? Earls is an easy scapegoat, and does he get balemd for a lot, absolutely, but you can't tell me that he is flawless and perfect because that is a crock of shoite.

Where did I say he never had a bad game for Munster or that he was flawless? I'd say he has been a very consistent performer at 13 and by far the 2nd best outside centre playing in Ireland and in some facits of the game like making linebreaks and pace, he is way better than BOD).

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:Rodders in that situation if the 14 stayed out how is our 12 going to cover 3 players.

Defend from the inside out: that is how every player is coached to defend and how every coach is taught to coach in Ireland, new Zealand, everywhere.

There's a reason defenses drift outdated rather than inwards. This is really beginners stuff.

Firstly no top side uses a drift defence, thats a beginners system. Even in a drift defence though, the defence shouldn't get beaten on the outside, or facing a 2 man overlap.

No matter what system you use, if it amounts to being beaten on the outside then it hasn't been implemented right.

I wouldn't agree on consistency, he has been amazing other times and solid the rest, I would agreee that he is the second best 13 in the country, although I like McSharry, Cave needs to improve a bit more to challenge seriously.

Rodders/Pete, rugby teams or any tream sport will mix a load of different systems into their gameplan, be it soccer, american football whatever, you do not simplay have one defensive system. You will mix ideologies from a load of others, for different scenarios.


The only sport that employs one stout/rigid system is Gaelic football, with the blanket defence and that's mainly because people aren't able to counterract against it (how I think you beat is running at defenders and with accurate passing, but not many GAA teams seem to be capable of it)

Thomond wrote:Dod, I defended the guy he gets far too much stick for such little errors, he is an easy scapegoat, but likewise he has had bad games for Munster at centre, and he has had good games. Sin was saying he has never had a bad game, which is a load of bollix. He has a lot ot work on as do all other 13 options, the problem is he has to live up to BOD, which he probably won't (not many will). 

He will get his chance at centre and if he proves he can do a good job at HC level will he deserves a shot like anyone else, I just feel it's not his best positon, and I'm disappointed that Downey and Laulala won't play together when they finally started looking decent.

Nothing I have said isn't true.

Seems to me you are very easy on Casey Laulala (an AB) who put in some really poor performances even though he had the advantage of being very familiar with Penney as a coach and the Canterbury style of play. When you start giving Earls similar leeway, I'll believe you don't have it in for him (& ROG).

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Just looking a the Lions and Ireland have 4 starters,it would be 6 if i wasn't for injuries o Healy and Bowe.I think the argument that our players aren't as good as the other 6 Nations teams is pretty well refuted.

It's debatable whether Healy and Bowe would have been on the starting side...perhaps subs?  Not saying you're wrong but there was certainly no guarantee on that 6 number.  Healy's real potency is in the loose and Gatland is pointing out that he is concentrating on the technicality of the scrum to begin with.

Anyway, two of our four (and only four - no subs) are over 30 and are already on the downslope of their careers (and one of them wasn't part of the 6N, a competition Gatland directly pinned a lot of his other Lions choices down on).  So hardly a ringing endorsement of our younger players of the same vintage as Welsh and English younger guys, sore?

Sexton is virutally the only Irish player Gatland would not be without (wouldn't have suitable back up for his liking) and even he had his kicking duties taken from him to dilute any glory that was maybe coming down his channel (good idea btw; which I'd like to see tried at Ireland  - but that's a chat for another day).

I believe in Irish players, I don't still believe in the seriousness of the scientific systems that follow our young players from school, through school, through club to Province.  We need more highly developed athletes to be able to more effectively select truly world class players into the future and not lay our hopes on the one or two 'special' ones that arrive from time to time to shore up reasonably talented teams.

Wales 10
England 8
Ireland 4
Scotland 1.

Laulala was shoite for most of the year, he and Downey picked it up from around thwe QF, I wouldn't mind seeing that partnership get a bit more gametime, as I thought it had good potential. I have given Earls leeway, he will get his shot, it's up for him to prove it, no BS about being low on confidence all that crap, if he wants to play for Munster and Ireland in the centre he needs to show it, Laulala needs to show why he is better than Keith too.

They will both get a shot, and compeition for places is good, if Keith wants to play for Ireland , he needs to beat Laulala first, that's as a good a challenge as any.

Thomond wrote:Rodders/Pete, rugby teams or any tream sport will mix a load of different systems into their gameplan, be it soccer, american football whatever, you do not simplay have one defensive system. You will mix ideologies from a load of others, for different scenarios.


The only sport that employs one stout/rigid system is Gaelic football, with the blanket defence and that's mainly because people aren't able to counterract against it (how I think you beat is running at defenders and with accurate passing, but not many GAA teams seem to be capable of it)

I know that Thom, that is why I don't understandor accept Pete's assertion that every team defends in to out - it depends on the system.

My point is that no system, implemented as intended, involves the outside defenders coming so narrow that the opposition can score tries for fun down the touchline....or that a player who repeatly gets exposed in defense in the outside channels, can be absolved of responsibility because of the system used.

I would largely agree with that although the banana defence which Ireland used at times in the 6N can easily see a shedload of space down the sideline if the winger times his blitz wrong, but that's the winger's fault, timing is the most important part of that really.

Thomond wrote:Laulala was shoite for most of the year, he and Downey picked it up from around thwe QF, I wouldn't mind seeing that partnership get a bit more gametime, as I thought it had good potential. I have given Earls leeway, he will get his shot, it's up for him to prove it, no BS about being low on confidence all that crap, if he wants to play for Munster and Ireland in the centre he needs to show it, Laulala needs to show why he is better than Keith too.

They will both get a shot, and compeition for places is good, if Keith wants to play for Ireland , he needs to beat Laulala first, that's as a good a challenge as any.

I can't recall anyone being anyway critical of Casey - if Earls played as poorly as Casey did, the internet would have gone into meltdown. Even at that, some very fuzzy goggled people thought Penney was humouring Earls as Earls had said in an interview he wanted to play in the centre.

With the amount of criticism Earls gets, is it any wonder he has confidence issues. He seems to be dealing ok with it now though (despite the former Irish captain having a very public go at him in a game). He just needs to sort out his injury situation.

By the way, isn't McSharry an inside centre?

What was that then, Sin???   The Lions number 13 was having a go at someone?   We done never heard of any of that in the last few months!!!!!

Tell us all about it....................... again

You'd see it in some places alright, and if Casey didn't get much he deserved a lot more (on here there are few Munster fans remember). If Earls is reading message boards 9he gets some but not as much in papers from what I've read) then I would wonder what the hell he is doing reading them. I've said it already sure, Earls gets a lot more criticism then other players, he isn't unlike Paddy Wallace a few years back in that regard, we al love a guy to pin problems on.


Got McSharry and Griffin mixed up, you're right.

All I was saying is that Earls needs to develop his decision making and ability to spot when the right time to pass is, I never argued he cannot make line breaks but as I say line breaks are utterly useless if you don't then either score an individual try (this won't happen a great deal) or find a team mate, if the team mates aren't there fair enough but if they are and you decide to back yourself and not pass then get caught then it is your fault.  As I said he may well improve over the season/years.
Calling Cave a no hoper is just wrong though too, quite clearly he is not, he would not be there if he was a no hoper, he has different skills to earls that doesn't make him worse just different in all honesty a cross between the 2 would be the best option but we don't have that so we will have to just go with whatever suits the game, gameplan etc

SecretFly wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Just looking a the Lions and Ireland have 4 starters,it would be 6 if i wasn't for injuries o Healy and Bowe.I think the argument that our players aren't as good as the other 6 Nations teams is pretty well refuted.

It's debatable whether Healy and Bowe would have been on the starting side...perhaps subs?  Not saying you're wrong but there was certainly no guarantee on that 6 number.  Healy's real potency is in the loose and Gatland is pointing out that he is concentrating on the technicality of the scrum to begin with.

Anyway, two of our four (and only four - no subs) are over 30 and are already on the downslope of their careers (and one of them wasn't part of the 6N, a competition Gatland directly pinned a lot of his other Lions choices down on).  So hardly a ringing endorsement of our younger players of the same vintage as Welsh and English younger guys, sore?

Sexton is virutally the only Irish player Gatland would not be without (wouldn't have suitable back up for his liking) and even he had his kicking duties taken from him to dilute any glory that was maybe coming down his channel (good idea btw; which I'd like to see tried at Ireland  - but that's a chat for another day).

I believe in Irish players, I don't still believe in the seriousness of the scientific systems that follow our young players from school, through school, through club to Province.  We need more highly developed athletes to be able to more effectively select truly world class players into the future and not lay our hopes on the one or two 'special' ones that arrive from time to time to shore up reasonably talented teams.

Wales 10
England 8
Ireland 4
Scotland 1.

I don't think Bowe is debatable at all,he'll be in he Test team next week.Healy might have been behind Jenkins I doubt it.Kearney has also been very unlucky with his injury as he hasn't had a chance to stake a claim for a place in the squad.If Roberts was fit then we could have seen a Welsh midfield with BoD losing out but if everyone was fit I think you'd have 5 possibly 6 Irish starters and Kearney on he bench.

I also think SoB is unlucky to miss out on a bench spot although Tipuric is also unlucky.Lydiate is a very strange choice there as now Heaslip and Warburton have to play 80 minutes unless they get injured.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

I don't think Bowe is debatable at all,he'll be in he Test team next week.Healy might have been behind Jenkins I doubt it.Kearney has also been very unlucky with his injury as he hasn't had a chance to stake a claim for a place in the squad.If Roberts was fit then we could have seen a Welsh midfield with BoD losing out but if everyone was fit I think you'd have 5 possibly 6 Irish starters and Kearney on he bench.

I also think SoB is unlucky to miss out on a bench spot although Tipuric is also unlucky.Lydiate is a very strange choice there as now Heaslip and Warburton have to play 80 minutes unless they get injured.

You think... and I too think.  But it's about what we perceive to be what Gatland thinks.  

Schmidt (hopefully) will drag back up the International reputations of many of our usual players and introduce bright new guys to a more successful side too, but for now Halfpenny was never going to miss out in preference to Kearney (no matter how well Kearney played his international game).  Halfpenny is the star of the show so far - and rightly so.  
O'Driscoll could quite easily be usurped by Davis and admitted himself that Davis is pretty damn effective in his role.  I think Bowe certainly would still have hot competition from Cuthbert in the eyes of Gatland who quite rightfully likes his attacking game, which is as effective as Bowe's (whatever about the defence down the other end)  

I'd personally have more Irish players on the Lions side because I believe they're good enough as individuals to beat Australia on their own, in their own National team.  But we're talking about how confident the Lions coaches are in them and for now, I'd say that's medium enthusiasm only.  I wouldn't go any higher than that until hopefully some of them prove their true worth in true 'tests'.  Gatland trusts his Welsh boys for the bulk of honors on this tour, aided by some very selective choosing from the other three nations.

SecretFly wrote:


You think... and I too think.  But it's about what we perceive to be what Gatland thinks.  

Schmidt (hopefully) will drag back up the International reputations of many of our usual players and introduce bright new guys to a more successful side too, but for now Halfpenny was never going to miss out in preference to Kearney (no matter how well Kearney played his international game).  Halfpenny is the star of the show so far - and rightly so.  
O'Driscoll could quite easily be usurped by Davis and admitted himself that Davis is pretty damn effective in his role.  I think Bowe certainly would still have hot competition from Cuthbert in the eyes of Gatland who quite rightfully likes his attacking game, which is as effective as Bowe's (whatever about the defence down the other end)  

I'd personally have more Irish players on the Lions side because I believe they're good enough as individuals to beat Australia on their own, in their own National team.  But we're talking about how confident the Lions coaches are in them and for now, I'd say that's medium enthusiasm only.  I wouldn't go any higher than that until hopefully some of them prove their true worth in true 'tests'.  Gatland trusts his Welsh boys for the bulk of honors on this tour, aided by some very selective choosing from the other three nations.

Another point in favour of my point that our players are just as talented as the other 6 Nations teams,Halfpenny would be ahead of Kearney purely based on his goalkicking even if Kearney when fit is a better full back.

Man for man we've just as much talent as any other team in the 6N and our performances have been criminal considering the players available to us.Injuries give some mitigation to our latest flop but that's only the latest in a line of poor tournaments.

I think come 6N 2014 Schmidt will have us purring,I hope things click straight away and we give NZ a right rattle but I can wait til February and then I fully expect at least 4 wins and a championship (presuming there is no sudden injury crisis).

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

SecretFly wrote:


You think... and I too think.  But it's about what we perceive to be what Gatland thinks.  

Schmidt (hopefully) will drag back up the International reputations of many of our usual players and introduce bright new guys to a more successful side too, but for now Halfpenny was never going to miss out in preference to Kearney (no matter how well Kearney played his international game).  Halfpenny is the star of the show so far - and rightly so.  
O'Driscoll could quite easily be usurped by Davis and admitted himself that Davis is pretty damn effective in his role.  I think Bowe certainly would still have hot competition from Cuthbert in the eyes of Gatland who quite rightfully likes his attacking game, which is as effective as Bowe's (whatever about the defence down the other end)  

I'd personally have more Irish players on the Lions side because I believe they're good enough as individuals to beat Australia on their own, in their own National team.  But we're talking about how confident the Lions coaches are in them and for now, I'd say that's medium enthusiasm only.  I wouldn't go any higher than that until hopefully some of them prove their true worth in true 'tests'.  Gatland trusts his Welsh boys for the bulk of honors on this tour, aided by some very selective choosing from the other three nations.

Another point in favour of my point that our players are just as talented as the other 6 Nations teams,Halfpenny would be ahead of Kearney purely based on his goalkicking even if Kearney when fit is a better full back.

Man for man we've just as much talent as any other team in the 6N and our performances have been criminal considering the players available to us.Injuries give some mitigation to our latest flop but that's only the latest in a line of poor tournaments.

I think come 6N 2014 Schmidt will have us purring,I hope things click straight away and we give NZ a right rattle but I can wait til February and then I fully expect at least 4 wins and a championship (presuming there is no sudden injury crisis).

Simples...not a bother.

I don't think we've anything close to the talent the other sides do, particularly the Welsh and this Lions tour proves it.

Most of our top stars are old men compared to the other nations...even Bowe and Heaslip are pushing 30.

Guys like Downey and McCarthy winning their debuts at 30+ shows the mess we are in.

Theres a few bright sparks like Henderson, Olding, Zebo and Madigan but really we have a lot of dross there, players that would struggle for pro contracts outside Ireland.

Why?  WHY?  WHY Delilah?!

Why don't we have the talent?  Why are we beaten by the French again at junior level, when they can hardly beat anyone else except us, when England destroy NZ, a team Wales also beat last year, and then both England and Wales beat SA to get to the final?

Not "we don't have the talent" please - Why don't we have the talent streaming through? 

Answers on a postcard or postage stamp, whichever is quickest, and always factor in that we have more players at every level than Wales and play the same professional game as them with academies, Professional Provinces etc.

BTW, even though I agree with rodders in saying we're lacking in many departments for genuine top-class positional players, I still say Ireland would have as good a crack at Australia in a three game series as the Lions are going to have now and that Wales are having in their eternal series with them. 

So Ireland is a conundrum... on paper the ability isn't there, on paper the ability is there - given how well we struggled through our years of pathethic negative coaching (scoring more tries than a crap side should ever truly score under the blueprint).

It's too easy to say we don't have the players and yet too easy to say it's only coaching that lets us down.  For me the issue is always our inability to sustain competitiveness for extended periods.  And to me, that's still an issue that involves the proper kind of fitness so that brains don't meltdown under pressure and skills are preserved through a tough sequence of International games.

rodders wrote:I don't think we've anything close to the talent the other sides do, particularly the Welsh and this Lions tour proves it.

Most of our top stars are old men compared to the other nations...even Bowe and Heaslip are pushing 30.

Guys like Downey and McCarthy winning their debuts at 30+ shows the mess we are in.

Theres a few bright sparks like Henderson, Olding, Zebo and Madigan but really we have a lot of dross there, players that would struggle for pro contracts outside Ireland.

Can't see that at all,there are so many Irish players playing in England right now cos they can't make it in Ireland so how the players that they can't displace would struggle for pro contracts is beyond me.

SecretFly wrote:Why?  WHY?  WHY Delilah?!

Why don't we have the talent?  Why are we beaten by the French again at junior level, when they can hardly beat anyone else except us, when England destroy NZ, a team Wales also beat last year, and then both England and Wales beat SA to get to the final?

Not "we don't have the talent" please - Why don't we have the talent streaming through? 

Answers on a postcard or postage stamp, whichever is quickest, and always factor in that we have more players at every level than Wales and play the same professional game as them with academies, Professional Provinces etc.

BTW, even though I agree with rodders in saying we're lacking in many departments for genuine top-class positional players, I still say Ireland would have as good a crack at Australia in a three game series as the Lions are going to have now and that Wales are having in their eternal series with them. 

So Ireland is a conundrum... on paper the ability isn't there, on paper the ability is there - given how well we struggled through our years of pathethic negative coaching (scoring more tries than a crap side should ever truly score under the blueprint).

It's too easy to say we don't have the players and yet too easy to say it's only coaching that lets us down.  For me the issue is always our inability to sustain competitiveness for extended periods.  And to me, that's still an issue that involves the proper kind of fitness so that brains don't meltdown under pressure and skills are preserved through a tough sequence of International games.

England didn't destroy NZ they beat them,that wasn't considered a top class Irish U20 team going over there so their displays have been a welcome surprise.We played our 1st team against NZ and then rotated against France,I don't see how anyone can look at the JWC campaign as anything but a success considering the talent available.

Did you see the England NZ game, sore.  NZ - big, bad, creative, dominant NZ were beaten in all departments as far as I could see.  They had nothing to challenge the English who were stronger, more aggressive at the breakdown and hard ran and cajoled the baby ABs for the full 80.  It was destruction in my books - as it would have been hailed by us had Ireland ever been capable of such a complete performance against them.

I see the JWC as our usual capitulation after a valiant segment of competitiveness.  Other sides (English and Welsh) can sustain the efforts with their own rotating and recover much quicker between games.  We do a bit and then fall away.  I'll be shocked if we beat Australia a second time in this single competition, and worry that it'll be more of a whipping as they look to put us back in our box.

The rhythms of the senior team repeat themselves with the juniors.  And happiness with 7th or 8th is not going to be increasing the pressure on the IRFU to be even more clinical and more self-critical.  It might be only a junior competition but when you see the names that have emerged from it to become stars of the senior game... no, 7th or 8th is not the proper target for naming the campaign a success.

SecretFly wrote:Did you see the England NZ game, sore.  NZ - big, bad, creative, dominant NZ were beaten in all departments as far as I could see.  They had nothing to challenge the English who were stronger, more aggressive at the breakdown and hard ran and cajoled the baby ABs for the full 80.  It was destruction in my books - as it would have been hailed by us had Ireland ever been capable of such a complete performance against them.

I see the JWC as our usual capitulation after a valiant segment of competitiveness.  Other sides (English and Welsh) can sustain the efforts with their own rotating and recover much quicker between games.  We do a bit and then fall away.  I'll be shocked if we beat Australia a second time in this single competition, and worry that it'll be more of a whipping as they look to put us back in our box.

The rhythms of the senior team repeat themselves with the juniors.  And happiness with 7th or 8th is not going to be increasing the pressure on the IRFU to be even more clinical and more self-critical.  It might be only a junior competition but when you see the names that have emerged from it to become stars of the senior game... no, 7th or 8th is not the proper target for naming the campaign a success.

I saw it and don't dispute that England were worthy winners,however you have to acknowledge the impact that the scheduling of matches has on this tournament.Englands last game was against the U.S.A. which they won in a canter and got to rest their best players.N.Z. had to play 3 really tough games against Aus,Ireland and England in the space of a week and couldn't rotate as much.

Last year I think we would have had a real shot at winning the tournament had we a better draw in terms of the way our fixtures ran out.

SecretFly wrote:Why?  WHY?  WHY Delilah?!

Why don't we have the talent?  Why are we beaten by the French again at junior level, when they can hardly beat anyone else except us, when England destroy NZ, a team Wales also beat last year, and then both England and Wales beat SA to get to the final?

Not "we don't have the talent" please - Why don't we have the talent streaming through? 

Answers on a postcard or postage stamp, whichever is quickest, and always factor in that we have more players at every level than Wales and play the same professional game as them with academies, Professional Provinces etc.

BTW, even though I agree with rodders in saying we're lacking in many departments for genuine top-class positional players, I still say Ireland would have as good a crack at Australia in a three game series as the Lions are going to have now and that Wales are having in their eternal series with them. 

So Ireland is a conundrum... on paper the ability isn't there, on paper the ability is there - given how well we struggled through our years of pathethic negative coaching (scoring more tries than a crap side should ever truly score under the blueprint).

It's too easy to say we don't have the players and yet too easy to say it's only coaching that lets us down.  For me the issue is always our inability to sustain competitiveness for extended periods.  And to me, that's still an issue that involves the proper kind of fitness so that brains don't meltdown under pressure and skills are preserved through a tough sequence of International games.

At least our 4 Lions have all beaten Australia a couple of time - can you imagine how all the Welsh feel? We complain that we can't beat the All Blacks. Wales, can't beat the All Blacks, South Africa or Australia (and lets not forget, Wales lost to Ireland at home this year even when we were missing Paul O'Connell).

Sin é wrote:





At least our 4 Lions have all beaten Australia a couple of time - can you imagine how all the Welsh feel? We complain that we can't beat the All Blacks. Wales, can't beat the All Blacks, South Africa or Australia (and lets not forget, Wales lost to Ireland at home this year even when we were missing Paul O'Connell).

Now we're getting there.  I've already said I'd give the Irish team alone as much of a chance of winning a series against Australia as I'd give the Lions now.
Talented players we have.  A system of getting them through tough campaigns where their levels of competitiveness don't fall away dramatically, that's the issue that needs solving in the long to medium term.

This is again about what Gatland thinks, not us.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think we've anything close to the talent the other sides do, particularly the Welsh and this Lions tour proves it.

Most of our top stars are old men compared to the other nations...even Bowe and Heaslip are pushing 30.

Guys like Downey and McCarthy winning their debuts at 30+ shows the mess we are in.

Theres a few bright sparks like Henderson, Olding, Zebo and Madigan but really we have a lot of dross there, players that would struggle for pro contracts outside Ireland.

Can't see that at all,there are so many Irish players playing in England right now cos they can't make it in Ireland so how the players that they can't displace would struggle for pro contracts is beyond me.

Who are all these players? Stringer? O'Leary? Humphreys?

Sorry but these are not International quality players. We have plenty of decent journeymen but the genuine quality players are still the same old suspects.

Kilcoyne, Toner, McCarthy, Downey, Hagan, Henshaw, McFadden, Marshall, Jones ...I could go on and on.... these guys wouldn't get within a 100 miles of the Welsh or English squads.

Rodders, who or what do you think is responsible for this situation?

Declan Kidney clearly, aided and abetted by Ronan O'Gara...how can anyone trust a French speaker, even if his grammar is poor

Artful_Dodger wrote:Rodders, who or what do you think is responsible for this situation?

Honestly I think there are a combination of factors. The schools system and lack of a meaningful club set up means young players aren't developing early enough.

There's too many overseas players in key positions at the provinces and the IRFU have prioritised the prolonging of star players careers at the expense of bringing through younger players.

We are were Wales were a few years ago. Gatland cleared out the deadwood and put a young group of players through a brutal international program whilst the regions cleared out all the overseas and aging players and now they are reaping the rewards.

I have to take exception with mentioning Luke Marshall in that comment, Rodders.  He got mad reviews after his games in the 6 nations, and many were suggesting him (not just irish fans) becoming a Lion.  This is after 2 games.  He is potentially better than any english or welsh 12.  Roberts had a horrible 6 nations, and is still very one dimensional as a player and very much relies on playing alongside a good 13.  Have you seen the criticisms of Barrett from the english fans?  Even Twelvetrees who is highly rated by the english doesn't look as good as Marshall.

In fact, I don't agree at all with the comment that we have a lack of talent in our country.  I think that is completely wrong.  There is more talented players and depth in most positions than I can remember.  The talent is not being utilised correctly.  Earls is a fantastic example for this actually, the guy has outstanding talent whether people want to admit it or not.  However, the fact he has had to deal with confidence issues, positional issues, and hasn't been able to grow effectively into the 13 shirt is ridiculous.

I am trusting Schmidt to prove this when he takes control of the team.

If you want an update on our younger generation of irish backs with huge potential, here is a quick list; Marmion, McGrath, Madigan, Jackson, Hanrahan, Marshall, Olding, McSharry, Griffin, Farrell, Henshaw (a bit bare at 13, yes) Gilroy, Zebo, Kearney Jr.  Some really talented guys there, lets not waste them.

rodders wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

rodders wrote:I don't think we've anything close to the talent the other sides do, particularly the Welsh and this Lions tour proves it.

Most of our top stars are old men compared to the other nations...even Bowe and Heaslip are pushing 30.

Guys like Downey and McCarthy winning their debuts at 30+ shows the mess we are in.

Theres a few bright sparks like Henderson, Olding, Zebo and Madigan but really we have a lot of dross there, players that would struggle for pro contracts outside Ireland.

Can't see that at all,there are so many Irish players playing in England right now cos they can't make it in Ireland so how the players that they can't displace would struggle for pro contracts is beyond me.

Who are all these players? Stringer? O'Leary? Humphreys?

Sorry but these are not International quality players. We have plenty of decent journeymen but the genuine quality players are still the same old suspects.

Kilcoyne, Toner, McCarthy, Downey, Hagan, Henshaw, McFadden, Marshall, Jones ...I could go on and on.... these guys wouldn't get within a 100 miles of the Welsh or English squads.

Irish provinces dominate the Welsh teams. Last weekend Wales got well beaten by Japan. Ireland beat Canada easily. Canada are better than Japan.

Exactly, lets not forget how totally anonymous some of these welsh stars look in the Pro 12 and Heneiken Cup games.  What is the explanation for that?

rodders wrote:


Who are all these players? Stringer? O'Leary? Humphreys?

Sorry but these are not International quality players. We have plenty of decent journeymen but the genuine quality players are still the same old suspects.

Kilcoyne, Toner, McCarthy, Downey, Hagan, Henshaw, McFadden, Marshall, Jones ...I could go on and on.... these guys wouldn't get within a 100 miles of the Welsh or English squads.

Eh you said we had players in Ireland who would struggle to get pro contracts elsewhere,I never said these guys were international quality just that they're better than a lot of Irish players who have pro contracts abroad already.

Just off the top of my head Ian Humphries,Niall Morris and the Exeter OH are 3 examples of players who have pro contracts despite not being as good as what we have in Ireland.There are plenty more I could find if I had the inclination.

You think Haskell,Burns,Johnson,Reed,Navidi or Walker would get into an Irish squad?