Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

by debaters1 Fri Jun 14, 2013 3:46 pm

First topic message reminder :

rodders wrote:Consider my roll slowed...

I don't think Jackson is great. I think he is good though and his distribution is excellent, better even than Sextons, he has good pace and is a solid defender. I'm not sure that he has the mental strength or personality to be a top class 10 and boss games but at only 21 its hard to judge and he has time.

I don't accept though that he has been selected on anything other than merit or that his contributions so far for Ireland have been anything other than positive.

If you judged Sexton on his goal kicking then he is a mediocre player. Except he isn't mediocre, he's top class.

Madigan is the second best 10 in Ireland right now, I think nearly everyone agrees, but in February this wasn't necessarily the case.

This right here ^^^ 100% true. Had an argument with my sister who is a Leinster fan (we're an odd family, Cork father, Kilkenny mother, living in Dublin I was born in Belgium) about this at the time. madigan was in good form in Feb and has shown he can play 10 but usually (at that point) it was almost exclusively Rabo amd not against an Ulster or Munster or Ospreys type side whereas PJ had played a Heino 1/4 in Thomond and helped Ulster win as well as the semi and final loss. So totally earned and is in credit for his 6 nations game too. But if Kidney were making the decision now, he'd obviously pick IM today.

Oh and agreed, his first 15 caps or so, if you took away a 9/9 or 10/10 kicking performance for Ireland against Fiji or Samoa (apols for failing memory here) in the RDS, Sexton was kicking less than 50% for Ireland. People would have shot ROG for less than 80%.

Regarding the mental side of the game that you have questions about over Jackson, I agree but that's the thing. if you told someone in May 2000 that ROG would go on to be capped 125+ times, tour thrice with the Lions, be named Heino play of the first 15 years of the comp, winning it twice and have the testicular fortitude to win two games on consecutive weeknds with drop goals, there would have been many to question your sanity.

People forget that only about 10% (if that) of players are like BOD or POC, the others learn to be winners by losing and learning from it, gaining experience and testing themselves weeke in week out. ROG is a winner but less in the 'born' mould more in the 'made' sense but he had many weaknesses in his game that he himself and his coaches too, refused to hide. ROG was never stuck out on the wing on opposition ball or hidden in some other way. He stood his post and was run over. And over agin. And got back up. Targeted for each and every one of his 125 Test caps and 200+ Munster games and had a 14 year pro career. That's balls right there.It is easy to always showcase what you're great at and forget your weaknesses. ROG didn't do that and I hope PJ doesn't either.

He is so young and has many strings to his bow and he and Madigan and JJ will hopefully be providing us with many a (positive!) selection dilemna over the coming years. This is the depth we've craved for the past 5 or 6 years, so we do not have to as patient, but we do not have to be super rash either.

by SecretFly Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:38 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Exactly, lets not forget how totally anonymous some of these welsh stars look in the Pro 12 and Heneiken Cup games. What is the explanation for that?

What is the explanation for that?

We're all questions and no answers, guys.

You have to explain Welsh players without using the excuse of crap Regional coaches, lack of crowd or lack of money.

The players must be explained. A primary example is Mr North. Before he travelled to Australia he was being criticised for his lack of anything in the final days of Pro12. Some (including me) suggested he was trying to get through without injuring himself because he knew what was coming. And sure as hell, he's stretching those big ostritch drumsticks now when the right audience is watching - the one that gives you your international reputation - mostly what Welsh players really care about.

Also, I've lost count of the number of times North and others have spoken about feeling completely rejuvenated when they go into Welsh camp at a physical/fitness level. If you listen over time you'll remember a lot of players say it. They feel fresh again, ready to hit hard, fast and for a sustained period. Something they do in Welsh camp turns them from normal players, who tire as easily as Irish players, if not moreso, during a normal Pro12 game, into the 80 minute perpetual motion rugby players they become when playing International.

So rather than us always saying 'we are' or 'we aren't' let's do the logical investigation into what is going on and asking the question: Why? Why does GB get serious about their poor Olympic performances and then virtually turn their world round and win mountains of gold in the last two olympics. That's not suddenly finding a great bunch of athletes, that's real quantifiable sports science that Ireland is still only on the fringes of. Welsh players are part of that overall improvement in sporting infrastructure that grows and grows in the UK. We need to catch up. High grade coaching that stretches the skill levels of players. Coaching that stretches into other disciplines - gymnastics, wrestling, sprinting etc.

We have to get serious about athlete creation or we will get left behind. We know we have talented players. We need more of them and from an earlier age.

by neilthom7 Thu Jun 20, 2013 8:57 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to take exception with mentioning Luke Marshall in that comment, Rodders. He got mad reviews after his games in the 6 nations, and many were suggesting him (not just irish fans) becoming a Lion. This is after 2 games. He is potentially better than any english or welsh 12. Roberts had a horrible 6 nations, and is still very one dimensional as a player and very much relies on playing alongside a good 13. Have you seen the criticisms of Barrett from the english fans? Even Twelvetrees who is highly rated by the english doesn't look as good as Marshall.

In fact, I don't agree at all with the comment that we have a lack of talent in our country. I think that is completely wrong. There is more talented players and depth in most positions than I can remember. The talent is not being utilised correctly. Earls is a fantastic example for this actually, the guy has outstanding talent whether people want to admit it or not. However, the fact he has had to deal with confidence issues, positional issues, and hasn't been able to grow effectively into the 13 shirt is ridiculous.

I am trusting Schmidt to prove this when he takes control of the team.

If you want an update on our younger generation of irish backs with huge potential, here is a quick list; Marmion, McGrath, Madigan, Jackson, Hanrahan, Marshall, Olding, McSharry, Griffin, Farrell, Henshaw (a bit bare at 13, yes) Gilroy, Zebo, Kearney Jr. Some really talented guys there, lets not waste them.

I suspect he may have been referring to paul marshall Rory not Luke

by asoreleftshoulder Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:07 pm

SecretFly wrote:

What is the explanation for that?

We're all questions and no answers, guys.

You have to explain Welsh players without using the excuse of crap Regional coaches, lack of crowd or lack of money.

The players must be explained. A primary example is Mr North. Before he travelled to Australia he was being criticised for his lack of anything in the final days of Pro12. Some (including me) suggested he was trying to get through without injuring himself because he knew what was coming. And sure as hell, he's stretching those big ostritch drumsticks now when the right audience is watching - the one that gives you your international reputation - mostly what Welsh players really care about.

Also, I've lost count of the number of times North and others have spoken about feeling completely rejuvenated when they go into Welsh camp at a physical/fitness level. If you listen over time you'll remember a lot of players say it. They feel fresh again, ready to hit hard, fast and for a sustained period. Something they do in Welsh camp turns them from normal players, who tire as easily as Irish players, if not moreso, during a normal Pro12 game, into the 80 minute perpetual motion rugby players they become when playing International.

So rather than us always saying 'we are' or 'we aren't' let's do the logical investigation into what is going on and asking the question: Why? Why does GB get serious about their poor Olympic performances and then virtually turn their world round and win mountains of gold in the last two olympics. That's not suddenly finding a great bunch of athletes, that's real quantifiable sports science that Ireland is still only on the fringes of. Welsh players are part of that overall improvement in sporting infrastructure that grows and grows in the UK. We need to catch up. High grade coaching that stretches the skill levels of players. Coaching that stretches into other disciplines - gymnastics, wrestling, sprinting etc.

We have to get serious about athlete creation or we will get left behind. We know we have talented players. We need more of them and from an earlier age.

That's not really accurate,they had one really top class performance in the 6N this year other than that you have to go back to the 2012 6N to find anything resembling what you've described.Lets be honest here the 6N isn't that high a standard of competition and our continual failure in it is an indictment of our players and management.The Welsh are a good side but no more than that and if they were truly as good as you make out in the bolded statement they would show it against the Quad nations opposition.

by **rodders** Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:33 pm

neilthom7 wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:I have to take exception with mentioning Luke Marshall in that comment, Rodders. He got mad reviews after his games in the 6 nations, and many were suggesting him (not just irish fans) becoming a Lion. This is after 2 games. He is potentially better than any english or welsh 12. Roberts had a horrible 6 nations, and is still very one dimensional as a player and very much relies on playing alongside a good 13. Have you seen the criticisms of Barrett from the english fans? Even Twelvetrees who is highly rated by the english doesn't look as good as Marshall.

In fact, I don't agree at all with the comment that we have a lack of talent in our country. I think that is completely wrong. There is more talented players and depth in most positions than I can remember. The talent is not being utilised correctly. Earls is a fantastic example for this actually, the guy has outstanding talent whether people want to admit it or not. However, the fact he has had to deal with confidence issues, positional issues, and hasn't been able to grow effectively into the 13 shirt is ridiculous.

I am trusting Schmidt to prove this when he takes control of the team.

If you want an update on our younger generation of irish backs with huge potential, here is a quick list; Marmion, McGrath, Madigan, Jackson, Hanrahan, Marshall, Olding, McSharry, Griffin, Farrell, Henshaw (a bit bare at 13, yes) Gilroy, Zebo, Kearney Jr. Some really talented guys there, lets not waste them.

I suspect he may have been referring to paul marshall Rory not Luke

Rumbled! I was indeed Neil!....although between just between us, I'm a big Paul Marshall fan but I didn't want to appear like I was picking on the Munster/Leinster guys .... Wink

I do trust Joe, he's a masterful coach and he will get us punching above our weight...I don't want us punching above our weight though, I want us to have the best players and play to our potential.

by **rodders** Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:38 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Exactly, lets not forget how totally anonymous some of these welsh stars look in the Pro 12 and Heneiken Cup games. What is the explanation for that?

Welsh players couldn't give a bollix about their regions. They are just a vehicle to play for Wales. The fans don't care, the players don't care -its all about Wales.... and the Lions.

by Rory_Gallagher Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:07 pm

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Exactly, lets not forget how totally anonymous some of these welsh stars look in the Pro 12 and Heneiken Cup games. What is the explanation for that?

Welsh players couldn't give a bollix about their regions. They are just a vehicle to play for Wales. The fans don't care, the players don't care -its all about Wales.... and the Lions.

Hasn't it been argued that the same thing happens in reverse for the irish players? More passion for the province than the country.

As for the welsh players, I am not so sure. Yes, they may obviously MUCH prefer playing for Wales (everyone would rather play for the winning team, same goes for the irish players yet again) but I am willing to bet the guys are trying their hardest for the side, and are indeed trying to beat the opposition. Although they may not feel the same passion or joy in region colours, they are still out to win.

Stag especially I think has argued this point for the irish players. The difference between giving 100% and 110%. I think he may be right.

by Gibson Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:08 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

rodders wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Exactly, lets not forget how totally anonymous some of these welsh stars look in the Pro 12 and Heneiken Cup games. What is the explanation for that?

Welsh players couldn't give a bollix about their regions. They are just a vehicle to play for Wales. The fans don't care, the players don't care -its all about Wales.... and the Lions.

Hasn't it been argued that the same thing happens in reverse for the irish players? More passion for the province than the country.

As for the welsh players, I am not so sure. Yes, they may obviously MUCH prefer playing for Wales (everyone would rather play for the winning team, same goes for the irish players yet again) but I am willing to bet the guys are trying their hardest for the side, and are indeed trying to beat the opposition. Although they may not feel the same passion or joy in region colours, they are still out to win.

Stag especially I think has argued this point for the irish players. The difference between giving 100% and 110%. I think he may be right.

So true. To the very core.

by **rodders** Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:16 pm

Yeah I don't agree with Stag on that. I think players try every bit as hard for Ireland.

However that in itself is a problem maybe, you can only give 100% so much in a season. The players gave so much in the heino, physically and emotionally, maybe they don't have that extra gear come the internationals...

..anyways that's off on a tangent....

I think we have quite a few talented young guys, who look good at U-20 / provincial level, but over the past 4-5 seasons its been really disappointing how few have really stepped up to the plate internationally.

by SecretFly Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:22 pm

asoreleftshoulder wrote:That's not really accurate,they had one really top class performance in the 6N this year other than that you have to go back to the 2012 6N to find anything resembling what you've described.Lets be honest here the 6N isn't that high a standard of competition and our continual failure in it is an indictment of our players and management.The Welsh are a good side but no more than that and if they were truly as good as you make out in the bolded statement they would show it against the Quad nations opposition.

You don't get my point, sore. I'll do it again. I think Irish players are better than their Welsh counterparts. Welsh players reach a certain level when playing in Pro12...and then excel way past the standards they bring to Pro12 when they play at International level. Now you might say they still underperform at International level. I say it's still much higher than the standards they achieve as individual players at Regional level.

You won't find many observers outside these islands that will put many Irish players higher in their rankings of ability than their Welsh counterparts. These Welsh players are stars of the International circuit based almost exclusively on International performances. They are also twice 6N winners in two years, one of them a Slam, and were the talk of the last World Cup. No they didn't win a world cup but their brand of rugby was the one talked about.

Now if you do a percentage job on it and give a percentage rating to the increase in performance levels of these players from regional to International and sugested Irish players could achieve the same percentage increase from their Provincial level, then that's a huge potential untapped for Irish international players. Exceeding that of Welsh players.

So you seem to take much of what I say as criticism of the players we have. No, it's criticism of the systems we have that seems to bring about little increase in performance levels from Provincial level. Welsh players improve a lot, Irish players improve little (if any).

by Gibson Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:39 pm

SecretFly wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:That's not really accurate,they had one really top class performance in the 6N this year other than that you have to go back to the 2012 6N to find anything resembling what you've described.Lets be honest here the 6N isn't that high a standard of competition and our continual failure in it is an indictment of our players and management.The Welsh are a good side but no more than that and if they were truly as good as you make out in the bolded statement they would show it against the Quad nations opposition.

You don't get my point, sore. I'll do it again. I think Irish players are better than their Welsh counterparts. Welsh players reach a certain level when playing in Pro12...and then excel way past the standards they bring to Pro12 when they play at International level. Now you might say they still underperform at International level. I say it's still much higher than the standards they achieve as individual players at Regional level.

You won't find many observers outside these islands that will put many Irish players higher in their rankings of ability than their Welsh counterparts. These Welsh players are stars of the International circuit based almost exclusively on International performances. They are also twice 6N winners in two years, one of them a Slam, and were the talk of the last World Cup. No they didn't win a world cup but their brand of rugby was the one talked about.

Now if you do a percentage job on it and give a percentage rating to the increase in performance levels of these players from regional to International and sugested Irish players could achieve the same percentage increase from their Provincial level, then that's a huge potential untapped for Irish international players. Exceeding that of Welsh players.

So you seem to take much of what I say as criticism of the players we have. No, it's criticism of the systems we have that seems to bring about little increase in performance levels from Provincial level. Welsh players improve a lot, Irish players improve little (if any).

Facts don't lie, Fly on the Wall. They are better. Plus, we had Fast Eddie and Elmer Fudge holding us back for 10 years. And, we gave them Gatland.

Nice move IRFU.

Thanks for wasting 10 years of Irish International Rugby development right there.

Hopefully, ye have started to make up for it now.

I'm starting to Believe again. Cautiously mind.

I just want us to realistically expect to beat anyone in the World. Leinster style. I reckon that's what Schmidt wants too. Trophies, on the way, would be nice. But I do believe the sex is far more important and in the long term - far more worthwhile.

I want us to scare de livin-schitt out of the Keewees - in NZ, within 2 years. Win or lose. Want the rest of the World to tune in - just to watch us play. That's what I want. Cos I'll be watching too.

BTW. Skuse the BLACK font an ting. I cant quote anymore, for some browser reason. So I highlight everything. Phhokit.

by theslosty Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:49 pm

Personally I think this debate is pretty ridiculous. Healy, POC, SOB, Ferris, Bowe and Sexton are all in the top three in their positions in the world. On form, Best, Heaslip, BOD and Kearney aren't far behind.
Fair enough BOD and POC are on their last legs, and Heaslip, Bowe and unfortunately Ferris are nearing that stage but there is more than enough talent coming through. This generation may not have the superstars of ten years ago but IMO we have more strength in depth than ever: for those players above the only positions I think we need to develop quickly are TH and lock. Things change quickly and that will be resolved if Schmidt makes the right decisions.
I like the look of the team for the next RWC. The great thing is young guys like Henderson, POM, Madigan, Olding, Hanrahan, Marshall, Zebo, Henshaw and Gilroy may not start but are always on the rise.

A championship next year or at least four wins is easily achievable next year bar injuries - heck, I reckon we'd have had four wins this year and Deccie still in a job if not for injuries Smile

- the 6N is of a pretty low standard these days.
NZ may eclipse us for eternity but with Schmidt's SH know-how wins over the Saffers and Australia at least at home are achievable.

Some of you have been understandably been worn down over the last four years.

It's been too long.

by SecretFly Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:51 pm

Gibbo, press the sixth button in from the right on your 'reply' screen and then the last button on the extra little list that pops up.

That should get you back to the old-school version and you should be able you reply the usual way.... using quotes.

You have to reset that every time you log on though..but it might help anyway.

by Gibson Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:04 pm

SecretFly wrote:Gibbo, press the sixth button in from the right on your 'reply' screen and then the last button on the extra little list that pops up.

That should get you back to the old-school version and you should be able you reply the usual way.... using quotes.

You have to reset that every time you log on though..but it might help anyway.

Love you Fly. I am a Computer Consultant of 35 years standing. I remember valves, punch cards, vast punch-girl pools from Up-Norf, with very loose morals... and paper tape. But I could not quote. It was a humbling experience I can tell ya.

Thanks for the tip man. guinness

by ME-109 Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:06 pm

Gibbo..you can believe all you like as you did with Jennings (god bless you) but Fly is right. The problem for Irish rugby is ingrained. Old Joe will get a bounce ( hopefully) in the initial stages but the old problems will appear.

Oh and just to burst your bubble he wont have the core of Munster men we were lucky to have up to 2009. The Leinster way is a non entity and the only times we have done well as a nation is when the leaders were of a Munster variety...McCarthy in 48, Kiernan, Bradley, Lenihan, ROG ...oh look all good Corkmen. Maybe just maybe with POM at the helm we might get somewhere...unfortunately i feel old Joe will go the same way other foreign coaches go and has been contaminated by the mirage of Leinster l'boy rugby...a thing of beauty but ultimately a mirage when it comes to the real stuff

by Gibson Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:08 pm

ME-109 wrote:Gibbo..you can believe all you like as you did with Jennings (god bless you) but Fly is right. The problem for Irish rugby is ingrained. Old Joe will get a bounce ( hopefully) in the initial stages but the old problems will appear.

Oh and just to burst your bubble he wont have the core of Munster men we were lucky to have up to 2009. The Leinster way is a non entity and the only times we have done well as a nation is when the leaders were of a Munster variety...McCarthy in 48, Kiernan, Bradley, Lenihan, ROG ...oh look all good Corkmen. Maybe just maybe with POM at the helm we might get somewhere...unfortunately i feel old Joe will go the same way other foreign coaches go and has been contaminated by the mirage of Leinster l'boy rugby...a thing of beauty but ultimately a mirage when it comes to the real stuff

Its MunsterMicko from de Indo!(We all know its Deccie typing bitterly from behind de sofa at home, its a safe Plan A, but say nowt. Be nice roysh?). He actually thought he was in for another stint. Like ROG. Bless.

Story Micko?

Ligind. guinness

by SecretFly Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:12 pm

Just glad it worked for you, Gibbo.

by **rodders** Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:13 pm

Losty look I'm excited in the short term about Schmidt coming in, I think he's the best coach around and we have good players...some great players....some exciting prospects.

I'm excited about a lot of the young backs - Madigan, Olding, Zebo, Gilroy, Jackson, Luke Marshall... in the pack Ian Henderson..

However I can't bury my head in the sand... we aren't producing anywhere near the quality and quantity of forwards we need. The backrow conveyer belt has run dry, the tight 5 depth is wafer thin... Toner, Touhy, McCarthy - these guys aren't on par with MOD or Cullen let alone POC and O'Kelly. Ross is an embarrassment but still better than Fitzpatrick or Hagan.

We also desperately need some powerful ball carrying 3/4s. Trimble has 50 caps and Downey is 32. We need strike runners for our footballers to play off and to take the pressure of the back row.

Schmidt can only do so much, we need players to come through.

by ME-109 Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:18 pm

Gibson wrote:

ME-109 wrote:Gibbo..you can believe all you like as you did with Jennings (god bless you) but Fly is right. The problem for Irish rugby is ingrained. Old Joe will get a bounce ( hopefully) in the initial stages but the old problems will appear.

Oh and just to burst your bubble he wont have the core of Munster men we were lucky to have up to 2009. The Leinster way is a non entity and the only times we have done well as a nation is when the leaders were of a Munster variety...McCarthy in 48, Kiernan, Bradley, Lenihan, ROG ...oh look all good Corkmen. Maybe just maybe with POM at the helm we might get somewhere...unfortunately i feel old Joe will go the same way other foreign coaches go and has been contaminated by the mirage of Leinster l'boy rugby...a thing of beauty but ultimately a mirage when it comes to the real stuff

Its MunsterMicko from de Indo!(We all know its Deccie typing bitterly from de sofa at home, but say nowt. Be nice roysh?). He actually thought he was in for another stint. Like ROG. Bless.

Story Micko?

Ligind.

You flatter me now Gibson, micko is a complete ligind. Anyhow i have changed my handle in deference to the new manager, twas the same on the old 606 when DK took over

by Gibson Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:24 pm

rodders wrote:Losty look I'm excited in the short term about Schmidt coming in, I think he's the best coach around and we have good players...some great players....some exciting prospects.

I'm excited about a lot of the young backs - Madigan, Olding, Zebo, Gilroy, Jackson, Luke Marshall... in the pack Ian Henderson..

However I can't bury my head in the sand... we aren't producing anywhere near the quality and quantity of forwards we need. The backrow conveyer belt has run dry, the tight 5 depth is wafer thin... Toner, Touhy, McCarthy - these guys aren't on par with MOD or Cullen let alone POC and O'Kelly. Ross is an embarrassment but still better than Fitzpatrick or Hagan.

We also desperately need some powerful ball carrying 3/4s. Trimble has 50 caps and Downey is 32. We need strike runners for our footballers to play off and to take the pressure of the back row.

Schmidt can only do so much, we need players to come through.

Its true big man.

And we tend to vastly overrate most of our respective provincial players.

When we lose BOD, the dip will be so much worse than we expect I believe.

On the plus side, Sexton will take a lot of BOD's stuff with him on to the field in future. So will POM. So will SOB. So will Zebo. Bowe and Kearney always have. Murray has the Right Stuff too.

The sum of all those parts will fill that huge vacuum BOD will leave behind him. We began to totally depend on his genius far too much and it controlled and stymied how we played as a team over the last few years.

I believe his retirement will actually elevate us to being a far better balanced side in the near future.

That and the 1st non-Cork Coach in a long time, to lead us the way.

The only way is Up.

We'll be grander than grand.

Believe.

by **profitius** Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:41 pm

rodders wrote:Losty look I'm excited in the short term about Schmidt coming in, I think he's the best coach around and we have good players...some great players....some exciting prospects.

I'm excited about a lot of the young backs - Madigan, Olding, Zebo, Gilroy, Jackson, Luke Marshall... in the pack Ian Henderson..

However I can't bury my head in the sand... we aren't producing anywhere near the quality and quantity of forwards we need. The backrow conveyer belt has run dry, the tight 5 depth is wafer thin... Toner, Touhy, McCarthy - these guys aren't on par with MOD or Cullen let alone POC and O'Kelly. Ross is an embarrassment but still better than Fitzpatrick or Hagan.

We also desperately need some powerful ball carrying 3/4s. Trimble has 50 caps and Downey is 32. We need strike runners for our footballers to play off and to take the pressure of the back row.

Schmidt can only do so much, we need players to come through.

Forwards don't always appear overnight or not as easy to spot as backs. They need time to mature and to do that they need to be given game time. Look at Tommy O'Donnell, hes 26 almost and had a great season. Of other Munster forwards, I think Mike Sherry is close to breaking into the national side, Kilcoyne is going to get better, Archer is on an upward curve and Paddy Butler has talent but he needs to put on weight. Dave O'Callaghan is another big unit who didn't look out of place in the home match against Saracens, when Munster won the collisions.

Of the tighthead props, hopefully Martin Moore has a good season. He is also young so might need a few seasons to improve. I wouldn't write Michael Bent off yet either and Stephen Archer has greatly improved his technical ability to go along with his natural strength. Since Botha arrived Archer has really improved.

Number 8 is a problem position. Leaving POM and Heaslip aside, I think Jack Conan looks a likely candidate to burst onto the scene in the next year or 2. He is a traditional big ball carrier that is hard to stop.

by **rodders** Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:46 pm

bout ye gibbo? How's things in the dam? guinness

by Sin é Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:25 am

neilthom7 wrote:All I was saying is that Earls needs to develop his decision making and ability to spot when the right time to pass is, I never argued he cannot make line breaks but as I say line breaks are utterly useless if you don't then either score an individual try (this won't happen a great deal) or find a team mate, if the team mates aren't there fair enough but if they are and you decide to back yourself and not pass then get caught then it is your fault. As I said he may well improve over the season/years.
Calling Cave a no hoper is just wrong though too, quite clearly he is not, he would not be there if he was a no hoper, he has different skills to earls that doesn't make him worse just different in all honesty a cross between the 2 would be the best option but we don't have that so we will have to just go with whatever suits the game, gameplan etc

From reading this (Irish Times today), it seems Brian O'Driscoll wasn't a big fan of passing to a team mate when he had the legs to go for it himself.

[quote]Brian has learned
[Austin] Healey also spoke about another former Lions captain, O’Driscoll, and how his role has changed as a player.

“I think what Brian has learned over the past few years is to pass. And that’s quite important in rugby. I remember playing with him in 2001 with the Lions and he didn’t like passing because he was so good and so fast he didn’t really need to. But, if you were playing on the wing outside him, it was really frustrating.

“Now, he has worked out that, if he passes, he is not quite as quick as he used to be but he’s . . . a phenomenal rugby player.

“Everybody thinks it is the flash stuff around the field but he is a seven in the centre as well, he is over the ball.[/quote]

http://www.irishtimes.com/sport/rugby/international/austin-healey-laments-the-loss-of-paul-o-connell-1.1441457

by GunsGerms Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:29 am

Thats just a typical Austin healy comment. In 2001 I think most people would have preferred the ball in Drico's hands than Healy's. BOD has always known how to pass anyway. To suggest that he has only learned recently is just Healy's attempt to get attention as usual.

One of the biggest attention seekers to play for England in the last 20 years.

by SecretFly Tue Jun 25, 2013 10:32 am

Spoken by a guy O'Driscoll decked..... I'd assume 2001 is still a little bitter memory hanging in there.
Besides, O'Driscoll was used to not passing in 2001ish because he played with Ireland - a team that had been longterm designed not to past out to the suspicious wings who weren't trusted (Simon Geoghegan)

by ME-109 Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:46 pm

SecretFly wrote:Spoken by a guy O'Driscoll decked..... I'd assume 2001 is still a little bitter memory hanging in there.
Besides, O'Driscoll was used to not passing in 2001ish because he played with Ireland - a team that had been longterm designed not to past out to the suspicious wings who weren't trusted (Simon Geoghegan)

He couldn't feicin kick a ball either...

Anyway...clearly this has no bearing on Earls...none at all..how can you suggest this Sin é....

by Thomond Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:49 pm

The difference between BOD and Earls in developing their passing skills is that Earls was feiced around with in terms of moving position which BOD never really was in Ireland (he played 15 in a game in 2001 for the Lions). I think his decision making is more of an issue than the passing, his passing skills aren't bad, it's chosing not to that he has an issue with. People say he has confidence issues but it's good that he actually backs himself to finish a chance a lot of the time even if he doesn't score.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:53 pm

DOD you've changed and become more reasonable. I saw you even referred to Sexon as a very good player on Saturday.

I don't like change. I don't like this one bit

by ME-109 Tue Jun 25, 2013 1:59 pm

Its the change in management....

by ME-109 Tue Jun 25, 2013 2:00 pm

But all bets are off come November.

by neilthom7 Tue Jun 25, 2013 3:20 pm

Well yes Sin and I say his decision making may improve over time, however right now it is possibly not up to scratch for a centre. However I would like to say while earls is good he is not O'Driscoll in 2001. Also Austin talks the most rubish I have ever heard just listening to him on ESPN these last 2 years gave me a headache

by Sin é Tue Jun 25, 2013 11:35 pm

Crickey - some sensitive souls here - Healey is actually praising BOD !

''he didn’t like passing because he was so good and so fast he didn’t really need to.''

As far as I know, Healey & BOD get on well together and that was all a bit of a laugh.

The point I'm making is that back then, BOD playing in the centre didn't pass much. I don't recall anyone complaining about it back then (not even Denis Hickie freezing out on the wing!) The general concensus now seems that a centre must pass to let his wingers score (which all becomes very predictable - you need your centre to be able to make a break as well and have the wheels to do it).

by **Notch** Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:44 am

Surely anyone can see you need your centres to be able to run and pass- too much of anything is predictable.

Why would we complain that 2001 O'Driscoll didn't pass much when he was scoring tries for fun? There's no comparison between Earls and BOD in those days or indeed between young BOD and any other centre in world rugby I've seen since. BOD made his own rules. No lie; he didn't need to pass the ball that often. He scored so many spectacular solo tries between 2001 and 2007 on the test stage, special tries no other player in the world could have got. No insult to Earls to say he doesn't have that talent. Who else does? Only a few genuine rugby legends over the course of decades.

Earls just doesn't have a great rugby brain. He can pass a rugby ball, but he doesn't know when. He doesn't read the game as well as he needs to for centre. His strike rate on the wing shows he has all the tools to be an excellent international winger- but we have no shortage of wings in Ireland right now.

We would all love to be proved wrong about Earls given how much talent he has. I think he needs the right coach- and a boost of confidence.

by Sin é Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:26 am

Notch wrote:
Earls just doesn't have a great rugby brain. He can pass a rugby ball, but he doesn't know when. He doesn't read the game as well as he needs to for centre. His strike rate on the wing shows he has all the tools to be an excellent international winger- but we have no shortage of wings in Ireland right now.

We would all love to be proved wrong about Earls given how much talent he has. I think he needs the right coach- and a boost of confidence.

For a bloke who apparently doesn't have a great rugby brain, he sure can make a lot of line breaks (and not by just running over people) and score the odd try as well.

Then of course, its amazing that an apparently 'rugby brain dead' player can play in so many positions at international level. Why can't all the 'brainy rugby players' do the same?

by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:48 am

If Earls moved to Leinster...... I'd love to watch Sin squirming round to find a way of saying that he always thought Keit was Rubbish, and cannot understand how anyone would think otherwise.

It would be like Bobby Ewing in the shower.

I'm sure Sin could pull it off too.

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:55 am

hahahahahahahahahaha

by red_stag Wed Jun 26, 2013 11:56 am

Has the Keith Earls debate become the new ROG v Sexton?

by Sin é Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:03 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:If Earls moved to Leinster...... I'd love to watch Sin squirming round to find a way of saying that he always thought Keit was Rubbish, and cannot understand how anyone would think otherwise.

It would be like Bobby Ewing in the shower.

I'm sure Sin could pull it off too.

That comment is more a reflexion on your mindset than on mine.

(God be with the days on here when I was the only one one defending Luke Fitz from the keyboard warriors who were thrashing him for some poor performances after his injury Wink

)

by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:05 pm

Sin é wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:If Earls moved to Leinster...... I'd love to watch Sin squirming round to find a way of saying that he always thought Keit was Rubbish, and cannot understand how anyone would think otherwise.

It would be like Bobby Ewing in the shower.

I'm sure Sin could pull it off too.

That comment is more a reflexion on your mindset than on mine.

(God be with the days on here when I was the only one one defending Luke Fitz from the keyboard warriors who were thrashing him for some poor performances after his injury )

Was that Wednesday the 9th of April 2012 for 8 minutes after lunch?..... Must have missed it. Laugh

by Sin é Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:07 pm

red_stag wrote:Has the Keith Earls debate become the new ROG v Sexton?

For the time being - I'd imagine the thrashing of Murray will be resumed as soon as the new Leinster kid on the block gets a couple of starts for Leinster A. POM could be in for a tough time as well .

Looks like Zebo is bullet proof for the moment though!

by Sin é Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:10 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:If Earls moved to Leinster...... I'd love to watch Sin squirming round to find a way of saying that he always thought Keit was Rubbish, and cannot understand how anyone would think otherwise.

It would be like Bobby Ewing in the shower.

I'm sure Sin could pull it off too.

That comment is more a reflexion on your mindset than on mine.

(God be with the days on here when I was the only one defending Luke Fitz from the keyboard warriors who were thrashing him for some poor performances after his injury )

Was that Wednesday the 9th of April 2012 for 8 minutes after lunch?..... Must have missed it.

na, I always have had great time for Luke.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:10 pm

What about Jamie? He loses points for not working on a farm and having a fashionable haircut.

by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:12 pm

Sin é wrote:

na, I always have had great time for Luke.

Must be because he lived in Cork and speaks Irish. Wink

by GunsGerms Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:20 pm

Sin é wrote:
red_stag wrote:Has the Keith Earls debate become the new ROG v Sexton?

For the time being - I'd imagine the thrashing of Murray will be resumed as soon as the new Leinster kid on the block gets a couple of starts for Leinster A. POM could be in for a tough time as well .

Looks like Zebo is bullet proof for the moment though!

I think POMs place in the ireland team is in doubt alright. Just doesnt seem up to test rugby IMO.

by Sin é Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:20 pm

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:What about Jamie? He loses points for not working on a farm and having a fashionable haircut.

He loses points for not wearing a belt on his jeans.

by Sin é Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:23 pm

[quote="Jenifer McLadyboy"]

Sin é wrote:

na, I always have had great time for Luke.

Must be because he lived in Cork and speaks Irish. Wink

[/quote

Well then, would the same not apply on that reasoning to Keith Earls (from Limerick) if he played for Leinster.

by Sin é Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:24 pm

GunsGerms wrote:
Sin é wrote:
red_stag wrote:Has the Keith Earls debate become the new ROG v Sexton?

For the time being - I'd imagine the thrashing of Murray will be resumed as soon as the new Leinster kid on the block gets a couple of starts for Leinster A. POM could be in for a tough time as well .

Looks like Zebo is bullet proof for the moment though!

I think POMs place in the ireland team is in doubt alright. Just doesnt seem up to test rugby IMO.

Yea, thats why the very generous IRFU decided to award POM with a central contract Very Happy

by Jenifer McLadyboy Wed Jun 26, 2013 12:25 pm

Sin é wrote:
Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:
Sin é wrote:

na, I always have had great time for Luke.

Must be because he lived in Cork and speaks Irish.

Well then, would the same not apply on that reasoning to Keith Earls (from Limerick) if he played for Leinster.

[/quote]
Away ouha dah with your logic and reason..

by KiaRose Wed Jun 26, 2013 9:59 pm

I have neither the time nor the inclination to read back on six pages of posts here, but from reading this last page it seems like the topic is "What is the future for Ireland?" My response to that question is:

1. I am really, really disappointed that BOD has not retired from international rugby. Why is he staying on? Has he got nothing to do other than play rugby? I have heard some rumours but they don't matter. For the moment, HE WILL NOT BE PART OF THE IRELAND RWC 2015 TEAM so why is he staying on? I know I will have upset some people by saying that, but let's be realistic, his best days are way behind him, Ireland needs to build. (You know I am a Munster supporter, but I believed that ROG stayed on a year too long as well.)

2. To what extent do people think Ireland are rebuilding? We might have hoped that that would have started after RWC 2011, but some of the old hands refused to go and as a result we are only now building for 2015. Is Joe S the right guy for this job? I found it very interesting how keen he was to exit from Leinster. There was no stopping him. Why? He could see what was coming. He came in a few years ago, took over a ready-made team (built by Michael Cheika), and won 2 HECs with them. AND he got loads of credit. How many people remembered that it was Cheika who built that team, from the ground up, including building their confidence so that they could actually win the bl***y thing and stop looking over their shoulders at the turnip-munchers whio had won it twice. That was the team JS took on and used to win 2 more HECS. However at the beginning of the 2012-2013 season, there was a little bit of a problem with injuries etc. Where were the replacements? Leinster had a disastrous start to their HEC campaign and as a result ended up in the 2nd tier competition. Thing is, that team now needs rebuilding. Was Joe the man to do this? We shall never know because he has scarpered off to Ireland. And we all know how difficult (politically) that job is. We have had a few talismen in our team over the past decade. One of these (ROG) has gone and two more (BOD and POC) are at the end or close to the end of their international careers. There are no obvious replacements for the latter two - in terms of charisma, leadership etc etc. A new Ireland team needs to be built. The building blocks are there - Kearney, Bowe, Zebo, Sexton, POM and improving Kilcoyne etc etc. I question if JS is the man to do it. I sincerely hope my doubts are not confirmed.

3. However, Mr Gibson seems to think that Joe Schmidt is going to be the saviour of Irish rugby.

"I just want us to realistically expect to beat anyone in the World. Leinster style. I reckon that's what Schmidt wants too. "

Why does it have to be "Leinster style" Gibbo?

We now have 4 SH coaches in the provinces and the National coach as well. We have a darn good Welshman coaching the U-20s, who, although they didn't do great this year, played some lovely rugby in the JWC.

I see an "Irish style" emerging. It is not a Leinster-, a Munster-, an Ulster- or a Connacht- style, but an Irish style and it is one which will fit with the styles emerging in the provinces and the under-age games. JS needs to work with the 4 provincial coaches, Ruddock and the schools sets-up so that as players emerge they will fit relatively easily into the Irish set-up. A few years ago I read an interview with Mick Dawson (CEO Leinster Rugby). He was bletthering on about "the Leinster Way". I say "bletthering on" because when push came to shove, and Leinster found themselves a few players short of the full team they realised that "the Leinster Way" was not quite so ingrained as they thought it might be.

In summary

Please retire Brian, now - thanks for all you have given us, but it is time to go

Please Joe, before the next season begins, sit down and talk to ALL the provincial, age-level and senior schools coaches and devise a template for a realistic "Irish style" of playing rugby - one that suits our players and our temperate.

Please fans, have patience, give the guy a chance. I have expressed some of my doubts on here. I have done this on purpose BEFORE he takes charge. The negatives I have suggested may be present I really hope I am absolutely wrong in these. If I am, I willo hold my hand up and say "Well done, Joe, I got it wrong". My sincerest hope is that that day will come to pass.

by Rory_Gallagher Wed Jun 26, 2013 10:17 pm

Just to briefly address your posts, Kia:

1) He is the best 13 we have still. We don't have a good enough replacement yet, so he stays and is our starting 13. Not much more to it than that really. The difference between BOD and ROG was that ROG was not the best 10 in Ireland, in fact he was playing some of the worst rugby at 10 I have seen. He lingered on. BOD still makes a positive difference to the team whether we like it or not.

2) Keen to exit Leinster? I have no idea where you have gotten that impression, it sounds like a conjured up conspiracy to be quite honest. That is the first time I have heard that, the complete opposite seemed to be true with Schmidt struggling to balance his attachment to Leinster and the IRFU needing a new coach. He is not the typical man the IRFU would have wanted in charge either, Schmidt is very much his own man with his own coaching methods. I am personally very excited.

3) Schmidt will play his own style of rugby, which Leinster happen to be well suited to. He will select the players best for the job. He will have better knowledge of his Leinster squad obviously, but over time many players from other provinces will win him over.

by SecretFly Thu Jun 27, 2013 11:58 am

1. Joe is none too smart if he want's to jump ship on a Provincial side that has taken two Titles in a bad year for them to a team that languishes on the bottom rungs of the top 10 International rankings, came 2nd last in this year's 6N and needs a whole lot of work to get them back up the rankings.

I'd say if Joe was running scared from a Leinster the Almighty Cheika created then he's running blind into a team that the Great Kidney has left behind him. No?

2. What the bloody hell is an "Irish style"? I remember the last person to use that line was...Declan Kidney, when he was defending himself against the charge that Irish rugby wasn't utilising Irish players as well as it might. To parahrase him, he said: "we have an Irish way of playing that suits us." He also alluded to the fact back then that his coaches would adapt their ways to an 'Irish' way of playing rather than the other way round.

What has an Irish way achieved in the years since professionalism? Quite a lot at Provincial level you might suggest ... not as much though when you introduce the Cheika way and the Schmidt way (neither of them Irish). But what has the Irish way acheived at International level? A bunch of triple crowns, one GS and a load of disappointments and underperforming at WCs.

If Schmidt can formulate an overall plan that takes into account how all four Irish Provinces play, then that still won't be an 'Irish style'. That'll be what the IRFU has been quietly preparing for through a number of years now - a SH style.

I hope we haven't arrived at a perfect blueprint too late again, as England begins again to look like it has the number on SH brand rugby (twice beating NZ at two levels in the last two encounters)

Maybe we should now be chasing for English coaches and thinking of an "English style"? Wink

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