Ireland Tour of USA & Canada

First topic message reminder :

rodders wrote:Consider my roll slowed...

I don't think Jackson is great. I think he is good though and his distribution is excellent, better even than Sextons, he has good pace and is a solid defender. I'm not sure that he has the mental strength or personality to be a top class 10 and boss games but at only 21 its hard to judge and he has time.

I don't accept though that he has been selected on anything other than merit or that his contributions so far for Ireland have been anything other than positive.

If you judged Sexton on his goal kicking then he is a mediocre player. Except he isn't mediocre, he's top class.

Madigan is the second best 10 in Ireland right now, I think nearly everyone agrees, but in February this wasn't necessarily the case.

This right here ^^^ 100% true. Had an argument with my sister who is a Leinster fan (we're an odd family, Cork father, Kilkenny mother, living in Dublin I was born in Belgium) about this at the time. madigan was in good form in Feb and has shown he can play 10 but usually (at that point) it was almost exclusively Rabo amd not against an Ulster or Munster or Ospreys type side whereas PJ had played a Heino 1/4 in Thomond and helped Ulster win as well as the semi and final loss. So totally earned and is in credit for his 6 nations game too. But if Kidney were making the decision now, he'd obviously pick IM today.

Oh and agreed, his first 15 caps or so, if you took away a 9/9 or 10/10 kicking performance for Ireland against Fiji or Samoa (apols for failing memory here) in the RDS, Sexton was kicking less than 50% for Ireland. People would have shot ROG for less than 80%.

Regarding the mental side of the game that you have questions about over Jackson, I agree but that's the thing. if you told someone in May 2000 that ROG would go on to be capped 125+ times, tour thrice with the Lions, be named Heino play of the first 15 years of the comp, winning it twice and have the testicular fortitude to win two games on consecutive weeknds with drop goals, there would have been many to question your sanity.

People forget that only about 10% (if that) of players are like BOD or POC, the others learn to be winners by losing and learning from it, gaining experience and testing themselves weeke in week out. ROG is a winner but less in the 'born' mould more in the 'made' sense but he had many weaknesses in his game that he himself and his coaches too, refused to hide. ROG was never stuck out on the wing on opposition ball or hidden in some other way. He stood his post and was run over. And over agin. And got back up. Targeted for each and every one of his 125 Test caps and 200+ Munster games and had a 14 year pro career. That's balls right there.It is easy to always showcase what you're great at and forget your weaknesses. ROG didn't do that and I hope PJ doesn't either.

He is so young and has many strings to his bow and he and Madigan and JJ will hopefully be providing us with many a (positive!) selection dilemna over the coming years. This is the depth we've craved for the past 5 or 6 years, so we do not have to as patient, but we do not have to be super rash either.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:Just to briefly address your posts, Kia:

2) Keen to exit Leinster?  I have no idea where you have gotten that impression, it sounds like a conjured up conspiracy to be quite honest.  That is the first time I have heard that, the complete opposite seemed to be true with Schmidt struggling to balance his attachment to Leinster and the IRFU needing a new coach.  He is not the typical man the IRFU would have wanted in charge either, Schmidt is very much his own man with his own coaching methods.  I am personally very excited.

Rory, Schmidt would only sign a one year extention to his contract with Leinster. He intended leaving at the end of this season.

3) Schmidt will play his own style of rugby, which Leinster happen to be well suited to.  He will select the players best for the job.  He will have better knowledge of his Leinster squad obviously, but over time many players from other provinces will win him over.

Team to meet the ABs in the autumn (if all fit):
Healy, Best, Ross
Ryan, POC (c)
POM, SOB, Heaslip
Murray, Sexton
BOD, D'Arcy
Zebo, Kearney, Bowe.

Bench: Kilcoyne, Straus, Hagan/Archer (toss of a coin!), DOC, Henderson, Reddan, Madigan, Earls.

10 Leinster
3 Ulster
7/8 Munster
1/2 A/N

Same as with Kidney.

SecretFly wrote:
If Schmidt can formulate an overall plan that takes into account how all four Irish Provinces play, then that still won't be an 'Irish style'.  That'll be what the IRFU has been quietly preparing for through a number of years now - a SH style.

I hope we haven't arrived at a perfect blueprint too late again, as England begins again to look like it has the number on SH brand rugby (twice beating NZ at two levels in the last two encounters)

Maybe we should now be chasing for English coaches and thinking of an "English style"?

Good point. The IRFU/provinces have turned to southern hemisphere coaches for years now and that goes all the way down through the different levels of coaching in the country. Ireland was well behind countries like Wales and France but I think we've overtaken France now in that department.


England will always be tough to beat when they get their act together. They're big numbers and play a physicality based game. Similar to South Africa in that regard. The best teams pound for pound has always been Australia and NZ so I'm happy with Ireland going down that path.


Interesting that Kidney mentioned an Irish way of playing. The problem with the Irish team the past few years was they looked like they had no way of playing. You had a bunch of coaches who were all doing their own thing and it looked like a jumbled mess. Compare it to Wales, NZ, Aus, England etc who all have a style of playing. There isn't an Irish way of playing anyway. Munster used their big pack to win HECs, Leinster won theirs playing a more attacking brand of rugby etc. At least these days all provinces are looking to play quick tempo, ball in hand rugby. That will help Schmidt.

All that has happened is that we've moved from Australian coaches to NZ coaches. It was thought initially that an Australian style would suit Ireland there is a lot of similarities between the 2 countries (both physically & mentally) probably because a lot of Australians have Irish heritage and colonial past. We've had a lot of Australian coaches (Williams, Gaffney, Gary Ela, Cheika (Knox!), Tony McGahan, Jim Williams) over the years. Looks like we're now moving to stage 2 (kiwi coaches).

Leinster has changed their style of rugby over the last few years - up to Cheika they had no pack worth talking about. Munster had no backs worth talking about up to recently. Ulster just didn't have the players, but traditionally they probably played the best rugby and the one that probably would suit Ireland best.

profitius wrote:
Interesting that Kidney mentioned an Irish way of playing. The problem with the Irish team the past few years was they looked like they had no way of playing. You had a bunch of coaches who were all doing their own thing and it looked like a jumbled mess. Compare it to Wales, NZ, Aus, England etc who all have a style of playing. There isn't an Irish way of playing anyway. Munster used their big pack to win HECs, Leinster won theirs playing a more attacking brand of rugby etc. At least these days all provinces are looking to play quick tempo, ball in hand rugby. That will help Schmidt.

Would you ever give over with these kind of comments. The problem over the last few years is that a lot of big players for Ireland are at the end of their career and developing new ones takes a bit of time. For example, Sexton wasn't an overnight success at international level (and you wouldn't expect him to be).

Its a pity this season Ireland was decimated with injuries. People seem to forget that Wales lost to Ireland recently at home and that players like 23 year old Conor Murray has never been on the losing side to Australia in his career to date (played against them 2 times) while 30 year old Mike Phillips might have had 1 win if that out of 7/8 meetings in the last few years.

Faraway hills are not always green.

Sin é wrote:

Leinster has changed their style of rugby over the last few years - up to Cheika they had no pack worth talking about. Munster had no backs worth talking about up to recently. Ulster just didn't have the players, but traditionally they probably played the best rugby and the one that probably would suit Ireland best.

SA style rugby? Hasn't Ireland already been trying that with no success in recent years. Anyway, Sin, "traditionally the best rugby that probably would suit Ireland best"? What has that rugby been 'best' at traditionally - style-wise - that would probably suit us best?

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Leinster has changed their style of rugby over the last few years - up to Cheika they had no pack worth talking about. Munster had no backs worth talking about up to recently. Ulster just didn't have the players, but traditionally they probably played the best rugby and the one that probably would suit Ireland best.

SA style rugby?  Hasn't Ireland already been trying that with no success in recent years.  Anyway, Sin,  "traditionally the best rugby that probably would suit Ireland best"?  What has that rugby been 'best' at traditionally - style-wise - that would probably suit us best?

The style of rugby they played back pre-professionalism. Good pack, good backs (more rounded team I suppose than Munster (forwards oritentated) or Leinster (backs orientated) then.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Leinster has changed their style of rugby over the last few years - up to Cheika they had no pack worth talking about. Munster had no backs worth talking about up to recently. Ulster just didn't have the players, but traditionally they probably played the best rugby and the one that probably would suit Ireland best.

SA style rugby?  Hasn't Ireland already been trying that with no success in recent years.  Anyway, Sin,  "traditionally the best rugby that probably would suit Ireland best"?  What has that rugby been 'best' at traditionally - style-wise - that would probably suit us best?

The style of rugby they played back pre-professionalism. Good pack, good backs (more rounded team I suppose than Munster (forwards oritentated) or Leinster (backs orientated) then.

Not disagreeing, but pre professionalism we were muck (and for the first few years of the pro game) We never had that all round game. (or fitness or..........add to list)

Sin é wrote:

Faraway hills are not always green.

Wales isn't faraway.  It's just over there.  With the bulk of the Lions, back to back 6N titles, a famous run in the WC, and JWC finalists this year (none or very few of their players playing in the top level of European club rugby)  That's no faraway anyting.  That's too close for comfort and getting on to be downright embarrassing as we here praise our Provinces, our academies and our junior game.  

Nope, it's not about our icons leaving, it's about what it's always been about in the last few years - bad tactics, bad training, bad preparations, bad selections.  There's nothing wrong with Irish rugby except what's wrong with it, and that isn't the players - it's the system.  

That might be (fingers crossed) about to change as the IRFU look for a Director and seem to be getting serious about having the system more serious from the very beginning rather than getting only kinda serious from Province level up.

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Faraway hills are not always green.

Wales isn't faraway.  It's just over there.  With the bulk of the Lions, back to back 6N titles, a famous run in the WC, and JWC finalists this year (none or very few of their players playing in the top level of European club rugby)  That's no faraway anyting.  That's too close for comfort and getting on to be downright embarrassing as we here praise our Provinces, our academies and our junior game.  

They lost to Ireland a few months ago (and Ireland was without Paul O'Connell).

[/quote]Nope, it's not about our icons leaving, it's about what it's always been about in the last few years - bad tactics, bad training, bad preparations, bad selections.  There's nothing wrong with Irish rugby except what's wrong with it, and that isn't the players - it's the system.  

That might be (fingers crossed) about to change as the IRFU look for a Director and seem to be getting serious about having the system more serious from the very beginning rather than getting only kinda serious from Province level up.[/quote]

So Ireland were not missing the likes of David Wallace, Jerry Flannery, Paul O'Connell or Stephen Ferris - you are having a laugh.

Sin é wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Sin é wrote:

Faraway hills are not always green.

Wales isn't faraway.  It's just over there.  With the bulk of the Lions, back to back 6N titles, a famous run in the WC, and JWC finalists this year (none or very few of their players playing in the top level of European club rugby)  That's no faraway anyting.  That's too close for comfort and getting on to be downright embarrassing as we here praise our Provinces, our academies and our junior game.  

They lost to Ireland a few months ago (and Ireland was without Paul O'Connell).

Yeah, they lost the first half for sure... and then we let everyone virtually win both halves against us all the way to 2nd last in the Championship.  Great - we beat them before they got going (in the second half).  We got going and then fell away, fell apart, fell back to being the joke side we had been for the few years previously.

And on your second 'laughable' point.  Sin, you do the stats all very well but the reasoning lets you down.  When we HAD David Wallace, Jerry Flannery, Paul O'Connell and Stephen Ferris, what were we achieving?  Big things?  Triple crowns as France won the wars?  WCs went great too.

The Golden Generation (that you seem to think was a reality when most of us still think it was myth) still could only manage one 6N title since the beginning of the competition in 2000.  One.  Wales have four in that time (Three GSs), England have four and France have five.

Missing the 'best' players means we've gone lower than mediocre?  Some record to shout about, Sin.  That proves my theory is right not yours.  We're not fine if our best days was a group of 'best' players achieving not very much. 

Wales are doing more with their financial and playing resources than we are.  They take rugby seriously from an earlier age.  Our system lets down our developing players.  Provincial success is not enough to prove the complete Irish system is functioning fine.  No, it's not very laughable... it needs serious analysis and it needs to be corrected.

Secret I disagree with your assessment of our systems.

1. If you picture a food pyramid for a second, we get the basics pretty correct and our academies are producing talent that feeds through* to the Provincial sides.

2. Our Provincial sides have, in turn, produced sides capable of success in both European and "Domestic" rugby campaigns and maximise their results from their not insignificant but not French Top 14/Japanese funded bases.

3. International Team. This has improved markedly from the 90's, 80's 70's 60's and so on in respect of consistancy of perfromance. Granted since 2010, we have evidently slipped back behind France, Wales & England but even now we still hold a winning record over England and Wales in the 6N and with 3 wins and 2 draws to go with our 9 loses since 6 N began, that is probably our best set of perfomances against France over such a period (which is in itself a VERY depressing thought, don't worry, I'm not deluded enough to think this is good enough) the Grand Slam and I think 4 (if not 5) 2nd place finishes, at least 3 of which were points difference losses** is a telling reminder of how close we got to having a record of 4 Champs in the 6 Nations era.

4. RWC. Unmittigated let downs. No excuses here, under performance to the Nth degree which leads me back to the pyramid.

Elite Performance. THIS is our failing, the grass roots are resonably healthy, the Academies are producing talent, the 'A' sides are good for kicking players on, the provinces are excellent at maximising that talent, the National sides helps make our players into International standard players but fails to win enough. This is the failing we need to fix. This is where High Perfromance issues have to be addressed, both in on field game planning and direction and off-field aspects that are within the direct control of the Union such as coaching and such the like. This point you are 100% correct on. But this area is probably the one area in which a 'quick fix' can be achieved and said quick fix can be lasting too. A winning culture and a talent maximisiation while wearing Green (or white/black ) is what we need to create under Schmidt. I hope he is the right man to do this.



* This asterix relates to having 4 teams in a 12 team league that is of mixed ability. In certain positions, namley the front row, we cannot produce say, 4 or 5 "finished" article players per 3 year cycle as the pond is too small to be intense enough. Not ideal of course, but this is why guys like Ross and a host of other young guys need to serve an apprentiship in England or France to become the finished, if inexperienced, player. In other postions, esp the backs, we produce the requisite numbers to replace what has gone before and, indeed, are in a better position in depth terms than 3 years ago. And 3 years before that and so on. So this is as successful as it is likely to be. One thing though, I am concerned that there doesn't seem to be a POC/DOC/MOK/ emerging from any youth system at the moment. Not talentless by any stretch but no standouts either, imho.


** This isn't an attempt to make 2nd place out to be anything other than 2nd, but shows how close that mid Noughties team was to winning and just how consistant it was average 4 wins from 5 for a sustained period, literally something no Irish side has been remotely close to doing. Which of course, just stings all the more in many ways.

I agree that the pyramid is good in Irish rugby and works but theres one big problem that most fans want to ignore. The system is geared towards the provinces and not the national side. So in a sense there are pyramids leading up the the provinces and then there is Ireland.


The evidence is the academy system, NIQ players and the reluctance to give youth a chance. The best players in the country are not getting picked rather the best in each province. That's a big difference. For example it means there are more talented players not making it with Leinster than in the Connacht academy. Connacht want as many local players so...


The internet almost melted down when the IRFU announced a few years back that they would "only" allow 15 NIQ players between the 3 main provinces (Connacht have a greater limit). Fans were whinging and moaning and the world was about to end. Even the coaches got in on the act. All the talk was about weakening the provinces while the reasoning behind the proposals was to strengthen Ireland. The good news is its being brought through with exceptions (BJ Botha). Munster complained and wanted another outhalf but were not allowed one. Now they'll have to play JJ Hanrahan a lot more. Joe Schmidt was one who complained but now he might have a few more options at the world cup.


Finally the reluctance to give youth a chance is common in Irish rugby. Theres a fear there that no other country has. 'What if they make a mistake?' type of attitude. So what do the provinces do, sign journeymen. Munster have an abundance of wingers for next season but they're also trying to sign a South African winger. Unless they have plans to move one of the wingers to fullback it makes no sense. The Munster squad is loaded with what I call squad fillers and others call blockers. They're players who will never be near the international squad or picked for Munster in big games but are just played against weaker opposition. Billy Holland, Deasy, Duncan Williams, Dave Foley, Niall Ronan etc. They get on ahead of academy players who might not be as good but could also be better. Why not take the chance and see. At least Munster are starting to clear out many of these squad fillers this summer (Deasy, Henry, Scanlon etc) and I suspect next summer too.


Looking at Wales (I use Wales as an example because both countries have a similar rugby playing population), everything is geared towards the national side. I think they're gone too far in that direction because they need strong regions too. But you can't argue with their success. Their academies get the best players possible from anywhere, they can't afford many NIQs so it gives young players great opportunities and their squads are also smaller and less bloated. As I said, they've gone too much with their national side and now the consequences of that is all the top Welsh players are being signed up to French teams. That will come back to haunt them.


The key for Ireland is to get a better balance. What I would do is limit the NIQs to 3 per team (including Connacht) by 2015 and then review it in 2017 with a view of limiting NIQs further. An IRFU academy should be set up with the aim to give players that have falling through the net a second chance.


Finally for Ireland to move forward we might need a 5th team in the future (taking into account the amount of players that are coming out of academies and the queue to get a starting spot growing longer). Munster are moving out of Cork so that's the whole area of the south of the island that must travel hours to see professional rugby. It has a much bigger population than Limerick or Galway so it would be a good choice for a 5th team, along with a Dublin or a midlands team.

Excellent posts lads. From the head, rather than from the emotional, illogical - Irish  heart. 3 posters well worth their keystrokes I'd say.

I could add to it, but Ive no need to. Its been said already and I'm not arsed either.  

Its what Ireland really needs to learn how to express. Zero tolerance for mediocrity.  At all levels.  

Then we may have a real sporting chance with the big boys.

Schmidt will cause an awful lot of shoite in the IRFU, over the next few years. Bet on it.

That's why the contract negotiations were so protracted.

And that's where things really need to change, to move Ireland on up to where we belong. In the Top 3 on the Planet.  Heads must roll at the IRFU before that happens. .

Believe in Joe.

profitius wrote:The system is geared towards the provinces and not the national side. So in a sense there are pyramids leading up the the provinces and then there is Ireland.

I disagree completely with this. The opposite is the case. It's all geared towards the national side. The provinces are restricted in the signings they can make for the benefit of Ireland. The IRFU/National coaches meddle to the point that they dictate how many games an Irish player can play, even how many minutes they can play in a given game and even what position they should play. All for the benefit of Ireland. The provinces could dispose of all foreign tightheads and play Irish ones. But apart from that they really couldn't do much more for the Irish team. And remember the IRFU signed off on any foreign tightheads. It's not the provinces fault the national team has made a complete balls of things. The provinces have done a great job. The IRFU and former Irish coaching team have done a poor job.

Feckless kicks in. Also roysh. In his valued opinion... Man.

I don't blame the Provinces for anything, I blame a sytem that only get professionally serious at the entrance stage of Provincial - the academies.  It just needs to be much more serious and technical and scientific at an earlier point...from schools through to clubs.  More clinical and professionally backed coaching - .... more emphasis on the skills that are used in rugby but are not necessarily exclusive to rugby - at a young age.  Find the true athletes earlier, intensive scouting, and allow them to experience professional guidance earlier...so that when the academies are filling up, much of the building and teaching has already begun and fine tuning to an elite level can be concentrated on.

There is no reason why we in Ireland should continue to have the perception that 21, 22, 23 or 24 is too young when other Nations easily slide such players into their National side.  It is too young for Ireland at times because real professional preparation of players seem to begin later.  Toner, for example, is still trying to bulk up even now after a few seasons with one of the best sides in Europe.  He entered as an Icabod Crane beanpole.

It might be actually getting better but that early seriousness has a long way to go still in my opinion.

George North is just a poor man's Shaggy. Schmidt will make use of our lads footballing skills.

Feckless Rogue wrote:George North is just a poor man's Shaggy. Schmidt will make use of our lads footballing skills.

Funny you should say that.  When I hear all the adulation of North and him marketed as a blueprint of where wings are going - big, strident, physical, powerful running and side-stepping - I think oh yeah???  We had Horgan as the blueprint before North.  Looking back at snippets of Horgan in his prime is frightening.  Frightening how good he was at it all and how much I criticised him in his early years for being a fluffing, butter-fingered fool

North is but a faded facsimile of Shaggy. He shouldn't even be mentioned in the same sentence.|
But FFS, don't tell the Shadwells that.
Shaggy rocked.

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=UW7HgpvlLFs

He was absolutely brilliant. Had his ups and downs like every player. But unplayable at his best.

But we have nobody like him now. We have Zebo, Bowe, Earls, Fitzy, Gilroy, Kearney etc. in our back three. Not bad. And have never looked anything but really good at all age levels against bigger opponents. You just need to play a game that makes use of them. The heaviest doesn't always mean the best.

Feckless Rogue wrote:He was absolutely brilliant. Had his ups and downs like every player. But unplayable at his best.

But we have nobody like him now. We have Zebo, Bowe, Earls, Fitzy, Gilroy, Kearney etc. in our back three. Not bad. And have never looked anything but really good at all age levels against bigger opponents. You just need to play a game that makes use of them. The heaviest doesn't always mean the best.

Bowe stands out. He's not Shaggy, but he has out-tryed him for Ireland. And there is lot more to come from TB.

Earls will drop away under Schmidt and go back to his birth-Da Deccie. They'll drink tae and talk of codology.  

And Fitz will be back by then. Man.

Believe in Joe.

Cheers Gibson, your praise is the reason I keep posting. ;)Seriosuly though Secret, I am very worried if you think that the approach in schools rugby is amatuerish; it is frightening in its professionalism. Honestly, I left school in 2002 (i was a mediocre 3 string winger in a big Dublin school) and while our era was hitting it hard in respect of training methods and such the like, a mere 3 or 4 years later i heard how they were going about things and the difference was amazing. That is why, in comparative terms, we are being much more successful at age grade rugby than before. and consistant.
 
We are reluctant to give 19 year olds front line game time, but by 20/21/22 our players, genetically lacking size nd weight, have matured into much cleverer players and are contantly expanding our talent pool.

Just look at squad sheets from say 2009, 2006 and 2003. We are going in the right direction with the last block being High Performance. I hope Joe can change what needs to be changed both on and off the field. i have hope for the on-field stuff and expect the IRFU will in effect, actually aid the changes off field too.

One thing though, as we do not have the playing pools of France and England, we still need to have some patience that some people seem to overlook. People spoke of Shggy above and myself and Gibson have spoken about him too; in his last two seasons he was playing his best rugby but wasn't within an asses roar of the Irish squad because the bar had risen. That says so much about our system that such a player was passed over because better options were available. His handling/passing skills (and doubtless credit where its due to Knox, Cheika and Joe) got better and his timing improved too as he slowed down to make up the physical and speed deficit. This is something the irish rugby player excells at, namely playing the best rugby as they agae, not peaking at 24/25 and declining sharply thereafter.

Joe knows this, so hopefully he can maximise our international results from here on. As Gibson said himself; Mediocrity is not an option.

Feckless Rogue wrote:

profitius wrote:The system is geared towards the provinces and not the national side. So in a sense there are pyramids leading up the the provinces and then there is Ireland.

I disagree completely with this. The opposite is the case. It's all geared towards the national side. The provinces are restricted in the signings they can make for the benefit of Ireland. The IRFU/National coaches meddle to the point that they dictate how many games an Irish player can play, even how many minutes they can play in a given game and even what position they should play. All for the benefit of Ireland. The provinces could dispose of all foreign tightheads and play Irish ones. But apart from that they really couldn't do much more for the Irish team. And remember the IRFU signed off on any foreign tightheads. It's not the provinces fault the national team has made a complete balls of things. The provinces have done a great job. The IRFU and former Irish coaching team have done a poor job.

Irish rugby was in an awful state in the 90s.  The IRFU made the decision to keep Irish players in Ireland and they funded the provinces with the goal of making Ireland a more competitive team. Since then the provinces have become massive but they act like separate, privately owned entities at times.


The latest NIQ restrictions only came in recently. There has always been restrictions but the way I look at it is if the IRFU are funding the provinces then they are 100% right to put in restrictions and look after team Ireland. What do you think would be the right thing to do?


The IRFU have ran the game superbly IMO (With the exception of the new Lansdowne rd where they messed up big time and the time when they were talking about pulling the plug on Connacht). They always try to get the balance right between provinces, player development, coaching etc. They do that by giving the provinces fairly equal funding and taking away a lot of prize money to share it around equally. This limits wastage. The next step is to gradually make Connacht an equal member and that looks to be well underway.


I'd agree that their biggest mistakes was in running the Ireland team. They sacked Gatland too early and let Kidney and EOS stay on too long. Also the performance goals stop team development. They have just hired Joe Schmidt though and are making changes to the playing side of things. The new management will combine with the player production line to make Ireland a different proposition in the not too distant future once players are given an opportunity. The IRFU want the player production line cleared up a bit more (which is my main point too) but the provinces want more experienced squad fillers and NIQs etc. After a year in the Ireland job I hope Joe Schmidt gets asked him opinions on that.

...Well my penniesworth in a nutshell is....

a) Shaggy was a legend
b) Joe is a genius
c) George is a beast
c) The domestic rugby set up is an omnishambles

debaters1 wrote:Cheers Gibson, your praise is the reason I keep posting. ;)Seriosuly though Secret, I am very worried if you think that the approach in schools rugby is amatuerish; it is frightening in its professionalism. Honestly, I left school in 2002 (i was a mediocre 3 string winger in a big Dublin school) and while our era was hitting it hard in respect of training methods and such the like, a mere 3 or 4 years later i heard how they were going about things and the difference was amazing. That is why, in comparative terms, we are being much more successful at age grade rugby than before. and consistant.
 
We are reluctant to give 19 year olds front line game time, but by 20/21/22 our players, genetically lacking size nd weight, have matured into much cleverer players and are contantly expanding our talent pool.

Just look at squad sheets from say 2009, 2006 and 2003. We are going in the right direction with the last block being High Performance. I hope Joe can change what needs to be changed both on and off the field. i have hope for the on-field stuff and expect the IRFU will in effect, actually aid the changes off field too.

One thing though, as we do not have the playing pools of France and England, we still need to have some patience that some people seem to overlook. People spoke of Shggy above and myself and Gibson have spoken about him too; in his last two seasons he was playing his best rugby but wasn't within an asses roar of the Irish squad because the bar had risen. That says so much about our system that such a player was passed over because better options were available. His handling/passing skills (and doubtless credit where its due to Knox, Cheika and Joe) got better and his timing improved too as he slowed down to make up the physical and speed deficit. This is something the irish rugby player excells at, namely playing the best rugby as they agae, not peaking at 24/25 and declining sharply thereafter.

Joe knows this, so hopefully he can maximise our international results from here on. As Gibson said himself; Mediocrity is not an option.

Did someone mention genes?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Please don't mention genes, debaters.  I get into awful trouble when the genes debates crop up.   Everyone chases for their haplogroups and antropological history of Ireland files and all hell breaks out.

On Shaggy not being part of the Ireland set up in his latter playing years, when he was playing some of the best rugby of his career - I didn't agree with it.  Didn't agree with the fact that he wasn't seen as an option.  You say the bar had risen.  I don't think so.  I regarded his ability at wing as still as good as (if not better than) anyone that was operating in Ireland...or abroad.

[quote="SecretFly"]

debaters1 wrote:

Did someone mention genes?????!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!  Please don't mention genes, debaters.  I get into awful trouble when the genes debates crop up.   Everyone chases for their haplogroups and antropological history of Ireland files and all hell breaks out.

On Shaggy not being part of the Ireland set up in his latter playing years, when he was playing some of the best rugby of his career - I didn't agree with it.  Didn't agree with the fact that he wasn't seen as an option.  You say the bar had risen.  I don't think so.  I regarded his ability at wing as still as good as (if not better than) anyone that was operating in Ireland...or abroad.

You sense me lurking in the background and ready to pounce with my genetic population profile at the ready Fly.  

Down with genes..... we'll have no genes in Ireland thank you.

Don't worry soon I will be able to make a cross between o'connell, gilroy, zebo and o'driscoll and I shall call him test subject a (the name may need some work)

neilthom7 wrote:Don't worry soon I will be able to make a cross between o'connell, gilroy, zebo and o'driscoll and I shall call him test subject a (the name may need some work)

neilthom7, if you can harness the aul memories & playing experience of these guys too, that will ensure Test Subject A is of the required mental faculties. And Paulie's stare.

He won't be pretty with all that mess of genes in the mixing bowl!

SecretFly wrote:He won't be pretty with all that mess of genes in the mixing bowl!  

But he will be pretty effective.....

Sorry, I'll get my coat.....  

I just hope he doesn't come out ginger  

ginger afro........... 6'6" 20 stone piebald wing

SecretFly wrote:ginger afro........... 6'6" 20 stone piebald wing

Jaysus, a ginger afro. That would be scary....

He should be called Paddy Mick McO'Flagherty. The sight of his red afro will make All Blacks cower behind their Mammies and refuse to play.

We already have a player with a red afro though:

http://cdn2.independent.ie/incoming/article29096001.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/paddy-jackson.jpg

Well I think we should name him a name befitting a God, so I think Brian O'Driscoll oh wait that names taken?

SecretFly wrote:We already have a player with a red afro though:

http://cdn2.independent.ie/incoming/article29096001.ece/ALTERNATES/h342/paddy-jackson.jpg

Pah!

That's not a red Afro.

This is a red Afro

Yeah. That's an Artist's impression of what we're trying to achieve.

Just wait to Paddy Jackson grows up then he will show you gingerness

neilthom7 wrote:Just wait to Paddy Jackson grows up then he will show you gingerness

If Paddy ever get's to the level of afro that Hamish did I will be seriously impressed.

I think we should start a campaign for him to grow an afro #growjackosgingerfro

I think he has the potential to do it.