Wales vs England Junior World Cup Final 2013.

by maestegmafia Tue 18 Jun 2013, 10:01 pm

First topic message reminder :

SUNDAY 23 JUNE - KO 17:45 - Stade de la Rabine in Vannes FRANCE

Coverage -

Sky Sports 2 - 17:30 - 20:00
TG4 - 17:35 - 19:37
S4C - 17:35 – 19:37

Referee: Mike Fraser (New Zealand)

Assistant Referees: Andrew Lees (Australia), Mathieu Noirot (France)

Wales:
Jordan Williams (Scarlets/Llanelli); Ashley Evans (Ospreys/Bridgend), Steffan Hughes (Scarlets/Llanelli), Jack Dixon (Dragons), Hallam Amos (Dragons/Newport); Sam Davies (Ospreys/Swansea), Rhodri Williams (Scarlets/Llandovery); Gareth Thomas (Scarlets/Carmarthen Quins), Elliot Dee (Dragons/Bedwas), Nicky Thomas (Ospreys/Swansea), Carwyn Jones (Scarlets/Carmarthen), Rhodri Hughes (Ospreys/Swansea), Jack Jones (Ospreys/Rovigo), Ieuan Jones (Dragons/Newport), Ellis Jenkins (capt, Blues/Cardiff).

Replacements:
Ethan Lewis (Blues/Cardiff), Thomas Davies (Blues/Cardiff), Dan Suter (Ospreys/Bridgend), James Benjamin (Dragons/Bedwas), Daniel Thomas (Scarlets/Llanelli), Joshua Davies (Dragons/Bedwas), Owen Jenkins (Blues/Pontypridd), Thomas Pascoe (Blues/Pontypridd).

England:
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs); Anthony Watson (Bath Rugby), Harry Sloan (Harlequins), Sam Hill (Exeter Chiefs), Ben Howard (Worcester Warriors); Henry Slade (Exeter Chiefs), Alex Day (Northampton Saints); Alec Hepburn (London Wasps), Luke Cowan-Dickie (Exeter Chiefs), Scott Wilson (Newcastle Falcons); Tom Price (Leicester Tigers), Dominic Barrow (Leeds Carnegie), Ross Moriarty (Gloucester Rugby), Matt Hankin (Saracens), Jack Clifford (Harlequins) (capt).

Replacements:
Scott Spurling (Saracens), Danny Hobbs-Awoyemi (Northampton Saints), Tom Smallbone (London Irish), Harry Wells (Leicester Tigers), David Sisi (Bath Rugby), Callum Braley (Bristol Rugby), Ollie Devoto (Bath Rugby), Henry Purdy (Leicester Tigers).

What a fantastic semi final stage to lead to this great finale to the annual Junior comp.

Wales and England me in the finale of the Six Nations where England's massive and talented pack tore Waes apart exploiting their weakness at scrum. The Welsh lads seem to have improved their scrum massively and tonight took SA to pieces at the scrum.

It is wonderful to see two NH teams in the final, both deservedly so.

by nathan Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:05 pm

Griff wrote:
nathan wrote:
The Saint wrote:
majesticimperialman wrote:
nathan wrote:well, both teams can be proud. Ref made some strange decisions for both teams.

Well done to and england team finally beating the welsh!

Finally beating Wales. eh? I think you will find England have never lost too Wales in the under 20's game.

But i do agree with you both teams can be proud of how they played to day.

Just be honest, you never knew that. You just regurgitated what somebody just wrote.
Honestly I did know that, its been mentioned on here before.

He was talking to Maj, not you Nathan!

Ah right, I think those folk that say men can't multitask might be on to something!

by Scrumpy Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:15 pm

Hard luck Wales, well played England U20s - world champions. Yahoo

by doctor_grey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:20 pm

I turned i on at halftime. Was great play by the England squad. And a nice win. Must be great for those lads to feel they are world champs.
And, in reality, great signs for Wales and England for the future. Happiness.

by valtrepkos Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:21 pm

Hopefully the NH in general will keep up this standard through the youth team levels

by markb Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:23 pm

Good comeback by England, especially with a man down for the first 10 of the 2nd, but like I said on the thread for the win against NZ, not a great England side this year, better than last year's, but then that was the worst group I've seen from us at this level. Can't help but feel that both sides in the final were there more because the usual suspects had far lower quality teams than normal this year, particularly NZ. Plenty for Walshe to work on for next year, particularly in the back play compared to 2011 for example.

by Scrumdown Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:43 pm

It shouldn't be forgotten that most of the welsh backline were second choices:

Rhys Patchell
Harry Robinson
Dafydd Howells
Corry Allen

all missing for various reasons.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:45 pm

Scrumdown wrote:It shouldn't be forgotten that most of the welsh backline were second choices:

Rhys Patchell
Harry Robinson
Dafydd Howells
Corry Allen

all missing for various reasons.

Getting the excuses in mate? Whistle

by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:48 pm

Scrumdown wrote:It shouldn't be forgotten that most of the welsh backline were second choices:

Rhys Patchell
Harry Robinson
Dafydd Howells
Corry Allen

all missing for various reasons.

classy

by Taffineastbourne Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:48 pm

Well,I have calmed down now.
Have looked through the thread and am amazed that I watched the same game.
The ref gifted England that result on numerous odd decisions.
1) The first knee by England 5 deserved a yellow,the second deserved a red.
2)English try with Welsh lad underneath preventing grounding.....
3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....
I was absolutely livid watching Wales' pocket being picked.I have no idea whence he came but he can go back fairly sharpish.
It was a great spectacle but I feel so sorry for both sets of players who were denied a true contest. mad

by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:50 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:Well,I have calmed down now.
Have looked through the thread and am amazed that I watched the same game.
The ref gifted England that result on numerous odd decisions.
1) The first knee by England 5 deserved a yellow,the second deserved a red.
2)English try with Welsh lad underneath preventing grounding.....
3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....
I was absolutely livid watching Wales' pocket being picked.I have no idea whence he came but he can go back fairly sharpish.
It was a great spectacle but I feel so sorry for both sets of players who were denied a true contest.

You missed the genuine complaint of the conversion that missed but was given

by Cumbrian Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:51 pm

Just as well that England were missing the following then:

Kyle Sinkler
Elliott Stooke
Nathan Fowles
Mark Jennings
George Ford

Whistle

by Hood83 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:51 pm

markb wrote:Good comeback by England, especially with a man down for the first 10 of the 2nd, but like I said on the thread for the win against NZ, not a great England side this year, better than last year's, but then that was the worst group I've seen from us at this level. Can't help but feel that both sides in the final were there more because the usual suspects had far lower quality teams than normal this year, particularly NZ. Plenty for Walshe to work on for next year, particularly in the back play compared to 2011 for example.

Spot on, not a vintage year for England and we were helped by the worst BB team i've seen put out and probably a Welsh team with a little less depth than us, though I missed most of the match so can't really say. The bit I did see today I thought our rucking was a step down from the BB game, which was a shame, and our back play looked clueless - a worrying sign because I felt, last year aside, this aspect of our game was improving at the age grade level.

Still, it's a great boon for them, hopefully one or two will kick on.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:52 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....

Not if the person at the front is holding the ball.

by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:54 pm

Cumbrian wrote:Just as well that England were missing the following then:

Kyle Sinkler
Elliott Stooke
Nathan Fowles
Mark Jennings
George Ford

They are 20 though, so do they qualify?

by **LondonTiger** Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:54 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....

Not if the person at the front is holding the ball.

Of course it cannot be a maul if opposition do not join, therefore the defence should be allowed to either tackle the ball carrier or run around and try and take the ball.

by **LondonTiger** Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:55 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Just as well that England were missing the following then:

Kyle Sinkler
Elliott Stooke
Nathan Fowles
Mark Jennings
George Ford

They are 20 though, so do they qualify?

anyone 19 on 31/8/2012 qualifies.

by Duty281 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:56 pm

Was keeping an eye on the score. Well played England, superb fightback by all accounts. clap

by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 8:57 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:Just as well that England were missing the following then:

Kyle Sinkler
Elliott Stooke
Nathan Fowles
Mark Jennings
George Ford

They are 20 though, so do they qualify?

anyone 19 on 31/8/2012 qualifies.

Oh. Why did we decide not to play Sinckler etc? Ford I get as he is basically bubble-wrapped and might even start at Bath. Maybe

by Cumbrian Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:00 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:Well,I have calmed down now.
Have looked through the thread and am amazed that I watched the same game.
The ref gifted England that result on numerous odd decisions.
1) The first knee by England 5 deserved a yellow,the second deserved a red.
2)English try with Welsh lad underneath preventing grounding.....
3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....
I was absolutely livid watching Wales' pocket being picked.I have no idea whence he came but he can go back fairly sharpish.
It was a great spectacle but I feel so sorry for both sets of players who were denied a true contest.

1. I thought it was debatable as to whether it was even a penalty. I thought Barrow was trying to rake the ball back at the ruck, hence the lack of complaint from the Welsh captain/ team.
2. How the heck do you know it was held up? The ref was right on top of it and he called it grounded.
3. The English players held the ball at the front of the wedge so there was no obstruction, the Welsh players had full access to the player in possession, once they attempted to tackled the player he could pass it backwards and drive forwards. English forwards were clever and understood the rules.
4. The ref ignored the Welsh players on the wrong side numerous times, several of which led to Welsh turn overs. It is swings and round abouts. The ref definitely wasn't England's friend for much of the first half.

by Taffineastbourne Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:01 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....

Not if the person at the front is holding the ball.

But if the guy at the back has it! Doh

by Cumbrian Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:02 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....

Not if the person at the front is holding the ball.
But if the guy at the back has it!

No it wasn't they made sure that they kept it at the front until they came into contact with the opposition.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:03 pm

Always so gracious in defeat..

Congratulations England.

by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:03 pm

It was all so friendly until just now!

by Taffineastbourne Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:07 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:Well,I have calmed down now.
Have looked through the thread and am amazed that I watched the same game.
The ref gifted England that result on numerous odd decisions.
1) The first knee by England 5 deserved a yellow,the second deserved a red.
2)English try with Welsh lad underneath preventing grounding.....
3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....
I was absolutely livid watching Wales' pocket being picked.I have no idea whence he came but he can go back fairly sharpish.
It was a great spectacle but I feel so sorry for both sets of players who were denied a true contest.

You missed the genuine complaint of the conversion that missed but was given

Yes,I forgot that one.Cheers.All my gripes are genuine,by the way.
It became pretty clear what was afoot early in the second half and I got more and more annoyed as the pantomime unfolded.I even sensed the England skipper's emarrassment during his interview post match.

by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:08 pm

The conversion one really confused me, I swear it missed

by ScarletSpiderman Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:08 pm

England deserved the win, in the first half it looked like they tried fighting fire with fire, and it didn't work. Second half they went back physical and battered us. No real arguements the better team won.

The non-maul tactic is awful, once in a while yes, but every line? Predicatable and easy to avoid being caught by.

by Scrumdown Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:08 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:It shouldn't be forgotten that most of the welsh backline were second choices:

Rhys Patchell
Harry Robinson
Dafydd Howells
Corry Allen

all missing for various reasons.

Getting the excuses in mate?

Just stating facts. Nearly third of the welsh team were missing. FACT.

Plus England used size and power, a big factor at under 20 level to grind down a smaller less physically developed welsh team who nonetheless had superior footballing skills, as shown by their dominance in first half.

These footballing skills will count for more at senior level where physical conditioning is the minimum requirement.

by Taffineastbourne Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:08 pm

Cumbrian wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....

Not if the person at the front is holding the ball.
But if the guy at the back has it!

No it wasn't they made sure that they kept it at the front until they came into contact with the opposition.

I beg to differ.

by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:10 pm

Scrumdown wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:It shouldn't be forgotten that most of the welsh backline were second choices:

Rhys Patchell
Harry Robinson
Dafydd Howells
Corry Allen

all missing for various reasons.

Getting the excuses in mate?

Just stating facts. Nearly third of the welsh team were missing. FACT.

Plus England used size and power, a big factor at under 20 level to grind down a smaller less physically developed welsh team who nonetheless had superior footballing skills, as shown by their dominance in first half.

These footballing skills will count for more at senior level where physical conditioning is the minimum requirement.

Wales had the bigger pack and were bossing England at the contact in the first half...

by **LondonTiger** Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:12 pm

Scrumdown wrote:
Plus England used size and power, a big factor at under 20 level to grind down a smaller less physically developed welsh team who nonetheless had superior footballing skills, as shown by their dominance in first half.

These footballing skills will count for more at senior level where physical conditioning is the minimum requirement.

You are aware that Wales had the heavier pack?[/quote]

by ScarletSpiderman Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:13 pm

Scrumdown wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:It shouldn't be forgotten that most of the welsh backline were second choices:

Rhys Patchell
Harry Robinson
Dafydd Howells
Corry Allen

all missing for various reasons.

Getting the excuses in mate?

Just stating facts. Nearly third of the welsh team were missing. FACT.

Plus England used size and power, a big factor at under 20 level to grind down a smaller less physically developed welsh team who nonetheless had superior footballing skills, as shown by their dominance in first half.

These footballing skills will count for more at senior level where physical conditioning is the minimum requirement.

Not really FACT is it. When have Patch, Robinson or Howells been starters for the Under 20s this season? Just because their eligible doesn't make them part of the team.

by Cumbrian Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:15 pm

Taffineastbourne wrote:
Cumbrian wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:
LondonTiger wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....

Not if the person at the front is holding the ball.
But if the guy at the back has it!

No it wasn't they made sure that they kept it at the front until they came into contact with the opposition.
I beg to differ.

Fair enough, but for me to be wrong and you to be right the ref would have to get it wrong, five? Maybe six tiimes? My God he really screwed you...!

by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:15 pm

And, apparently, we too were missing players. I really enjoyed the match and thought Wales were much better in the first half and the referee had some dodgy moments but for both sides. I thought the Welsh posters on here were being really gracious and showing a good Lions/NH spirit in a hard-fought final that swung between advantage for each side despite some errors and was full of passion and no little skill and self-belief. Why are you so determined to ruin this?

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:17 pm

Scrumdown wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:It shouldn't be forgotten that most of the welsh backline were second choices:

Rhys Patchell
Harry Robinson
Dafydd Howells
Corry Allen

all missing for various reasons.

Getting the excuses in mate?

Just stating facts. Nearly third of the welsh team were missing. FACT.

Plus England used size and power, a big factor at under 20 level to grind down a smaller less physically developed welsh team who nonetheless had superior footballing skills, as shown by their dominance in first half.

These footballing skills will count for more at senior level where physical conditioning is the minimum requirement.

Honestly, "fans" like yourself tarnish the reputation of welsh posters on here. There are a few too many ungracious "fans".

You can keep trying to add little moral victories and make excuses, but your team still lost.

by Scarpia Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:21 pm

I had to go out tonight. When I left, England were doing really well against India in cricket and Wales were 12 points up against England in the rugby. I'm not going out again! mad

by ChequeredJersey Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:25 pm

I still can't believe England and Wales lost the cricket

by Duty281 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:26 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:I still can't believe England and Wales lost the cricket

Good attempt at bringing unity to the board!

by majesticimperialman Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:30 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
Taffineastbourne wrote:Well,I have calmed down now.
Have looked through the thread and am amazed that I watched the same game.
The ref gifted England that result on numerous odd decisions.
1) The first knee by England 5 deserved a yellow,the second deserved a red.
2)English try with Welsh lad underneath preventing grounding.....
3)English driving maul against no oppo is therefore offside....
I was absolutely livid watching Wales' pocket being picked.I have no idea whence he came but he can go back fairly sharpish.
It was a great spectacle but I feel so sorry for both sets of players who were denied a true contest.

You missed the genuine complaint of the conversion that missed but was given

Yes i thought it was a missed conversion. Looked like it went wide of the right up right.

by Scrumdown Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:34 pm

Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:It shouldn't be forgotten that most of the welsh backline were second choices:

Rhys Patchell
Harry Robinson
Dafydd Howells
Corry Allen

all missing for various reasons.

Getting the excuses in mate?

Just stating facts. Nearly third of the welsh team were missing. FACT.

Plus England used size and power, a big factor at under 20 level to grind down a smaller less physically developed welsh team who nonetheless had superior footballing skills, as shown by their dominance in first half.

These footballing skills will count for more at senior level where physical conditioning is the minimum requirement.

Honestly, "fans" like yourself tarnish the reputation of welsh posters on here. There are a few too many ungracious "fans".

You can keep trying to add little moral victories and make excuses, but your team still lost.

sorry mate but we're just not as used to watching our team lose as you irish lot.

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:35 pm

Like I said, such gracious "fans". Wink

by majesticimperialman Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:45 pm

I was thinking how many of the players will make it to the full National squad?

LCD And Colin Slade have been well talked about for England.

What about Wales? Will Sam Davies make the welsh squad? Will he be a challenge for Dan Biggar?
The Welsh full back looked quite handy.

by jelly Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:45 pm

From my point of view I thought it was relatively even first half but Wales played with far more intelligence and took their chances, including the interception. Think England could easily have had a penalty try just before the disallowed try when 3 or 4 different Welsh players tried to illegally bring down the maul that was trundling towards the line. The yellow card seemed very harsh and, like plenty of others have said, if you are going to disallow tries for that then most tries will get disallowed if you go back to the most recent ruck.

Second half (indeed the last few minutes of the first half as well) England played far more sensibly. They didn't throw as many loose passes and didn't really give Wales a chance of getting back into it. The first 10 minutes of the second half was crucial as the fact that Wales didn't score against 14 men gave England a massive lift and demoralised Wales. They tired badly and the two drop goal attempts in the second half were symptomatic of a side that was running out of ideas.

Both teams showed some good play while also showing their inexperience but I think that, overall, the better team deserved to win.

Some very odd decisions by the ref but seemed inconsistent rather than in favour of either side.

by wales606 Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:47 pm

Sam Davies has won Junior Player of the Year

Well done to the lad.

by HammerofThunor Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:49 pm

Wow this thread turned didn't it?

by **LondonTiger** Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:55 pm

Congrats to both teams. Each had a half where they were in the ascendancy, and in the end the greater experience of the English lads came through.

Not the highest quality JWC there has been, but I am sure both England and Wales have developed a couple of future internationals. Even better these will be players who know what it is like to beat SA/NZ and should have no fears of meeting the same players again.

by HammerofThunor Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:57 pm

Scrumdown wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Like I said, such gracious "fans".

not going to take advice about being gracious in defeat from a northern irish man.

Well done. A new low

by Taffineastbourne Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:57 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:And, apparently, we too were missing players. I really enjoyed the match and thought Wales were much better in the first half and the referee had some dodgy moments but for both sides. I thought the Welsh posters on here were being really gracious and showing a good Lions/NH spirit in a hard-fought final that swung between advantage for each side despite some errors and was full of passion and no little skill and self-belief. Why are you so determined to ruin this?

If that was aimed at me,simply I am stating my honest view point with no agenda.There is little Lions spirit being displayed on Lions threads hence my lack of posting onLions threads.Everyone just bigging up their own players is pretty tiresome.
I was genuinely angry by the end of the game as I hate injustice.
For our 10 to get Player of the Year was joke appeasement.Hevwasnt the bestvWelsh player,never mind the rest of the World.

by Taylorman Sun 23 Jun 2013, 9:58 pm

LondonTiger wrote: Even better these will be players who know what it is like to beat SA/NZ and should have no fears of meeting the same players again.

I'll agree with that...to a point...the road ahead might just be a little more less obvious than that...but for now its a good point.

by AsLongAsBut100ofUs Sun 23 Jun 2013, 10:22 pm

Haven't seen the game yet, just the score and the scorers, so was it really Exeter Chiefs Academy quite a few points vs Wales U20 not so many?

Chief

by Rory_Gallagher Sun 23 Jun 2013, 10:25 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
Scrumdown wrote:
Rory_Gallagher wrote:Like I said, such gracious "fans".

not going to take advice about being gracious in defeat from a northern irish man.
Well done. A new low

Yeah, there are some very classy individuals on here. Laugh

Ah well, congratulations England. thumbsup

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