Money Talks

by RDSguru Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:29 am

2013 Lions: Welsh chief Lewis wants to discuss profits split

http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/22814824

Personally I think he has a point

by HammerofThunor Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:42 am

http://www.guardian.co.uk/sport/2008/nov/14/autumn-internationals-walesrugbyunionteam1

by HammerofThunor Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:45 am

Currently the money goes to the team for pretty much all games. If a team want more the say "give us more cash or we're not playing".

I'd say it's more important for the smaller nations this changes than the Lions

by RDSguru Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:10 am

HammerofThunor wrote:

I'd say it's more important for the smaller nations this changes than the Lions

Agreed in principle, the smaller developing countries of course, simply in order to grow the game.. but then look at Japan, they seem to have serious investment going on (and good for them).

I just think the point is a good one, especially between established nations on an extra curricular event!

by Luckless Pedestrian Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:17 am

There's a great post about this on the BBC thread:

2.parishmartin

'So, if I understand this correctly, Mr Lewis would like to see a bigger share of the pot given to the home Nations, to the four teams that actually produce the players that generate the income, whilst steadfastly opposing any suggestion that the Regional sides in Wales, who produce the players responsible for Wales' success get a bigger share of that pot.

That's not hypocritical, is it..........?'

by petethepete Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:18 am

He needs to raise more money to pay for his trip to Japan and then onto Oz to follow the Lions! Alright for some!

by Coleman Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:16 am

I don't like the guy; I’d love to see the terms of his contract. His profit related bonus must be outrageous as all he ever tries to do is make money for the WRU, and not fund rugby below international level.

by fa0019 Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:26 am

Do we give them extra revenue when they tour in the AIs?

by **LondonTiger** Wed Jun 19, 2013 11:34 am

fa0019 wrote:Do we give them extra revenue when they tour in the AIs?

NZ have had "appearance" fees in the past, with whoever provided the most getting the fixture. Of course they are in a position to do this.

Meanwhile poorer countries have to be grateful to even get a fixture. Then struggle to get their best players available as unable to pay them.

by RDSguru Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:48 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:There's a great post about this on the BBC thread:

2.parishmartin

'So, if I understand this correctly, Mr Lewis would like to see a bigger share of the pot given to the home Nations, to the four teams that actually produce the players that generate the income, whilst steadfastly opposing any suggestion that the Regional sides in Wales, who produce the players responsible for Wales' success get a bigger share of that pot.

That's not hypocritical, is it..........?'

In theory that is a good point, but then it is a possibility that with more money generated , more money could go the regions et al

by **profitius** Wed Jun 19, 2013 5:54 pm

So the Aussies will make about £40m and the 4 countries providing the players has to settle for £6m between them. Its not only on the field that the southern hemisphere countries are outsmarting the northern hemisphere clowns.

Really they should be looking for at least a third of the revenue.

by HammerofThunor Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:08 pm

profitius wrote:So the Aussies will make about £40m and the 4 countries providing the players has to settle for £6m between them. Its not only on the field that the southern hemisphere countries are outsmarting the northern hemisphere clowns.

Really they should be looking for at least a third of the revenue.

And this should be applied to all internationals. The Lions unions would lose out over all but the small unions would benefit (on not be played)

by Shifty Wed Jun 19, 2013 6:12 pm

Pot, Kettle, Black

A few years ago the home nations told New Zealand to shove it when they suggested that gate receipts from all international teams should be split between the 2 teams playing, regardless of the venue.
The idea being the New Zealand stadiums hold 20,000-30,000 while the European teams can hold anything up to 80,000, so New Zealand would be a lot better off. Wales also pointed out that they wouldn't be able to have a professional game if they suffered a 50% drop in gate receipts income.

Now Roger has a brain wave... Once every 12 years one of the Tri Nations teams get a little boon to their coffers, for god sake let them keep it...

by **profitius** Wed Jun 19, 2013 7:47 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:
profitius wrote:So the Aussies will make about £40m and the 4 countries providing the players has to settle for £6m between them. Its not only on the field that the southern hemisphere countries are outsmarting the northern hemisphere clowns.

Really they should be looking for at least a third of the revenue.

And this should be applied to all internationals. The Lions unions would lose out over all but the small unions would benefit (on not be played)

The Lions isn't like ordinary internationals. The Lions have no home fixtures and play all their games away from home. As well as that the tour comes at the end of a long season and the Lions players have to play a lot more matches than their host nation players.

At the end of the day SA, NZ and Oz need the Lions more than the Lions need them. Btw, NZ are already getting money to play sides. So another reason why the Lions should be getting a large slice of the pie.

I'm all for helping developing nations BTW. I think the IRB gives back too much money to the top teams and investing in other countries would be much wiser in terms of growing the game and future wealth generation by opening up more rugby markets etc etc. NZ, Australia and SA are not exactly small unions.

by HammerofThunor Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:00 pm

I'm fine with the Lions asking for more money or using it as a negotiating point. If the SANZAR agree fine.

However I rather the IRB did something to help teams like Canada, Tonga, etc to fund tours. I mean the RFU giving the PI £75k for their game was a nice bonus.

Declaration of Conflict of Interest: I'd rather the Lions was scraped

by Shifty Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:09 pm

profitius wrote:The Lions isn't like ordinary internationals. The Lions have no home fixtures and play all their games away from home. As well as that the tour comes at the end of a long season and the Lions players have to play a lot more matches than their host nation players.

At the end of the day SA, NZ and Oz need the Lions more than the Lions need them. Btw, NZ are already getting money to play sides. So another reason why the Lions should be getting a large slice of the pie.

I'm all for helping developing nations BTW. I think the IRB gives back too much money to the top teams and investing in other countries would be much wiser in terms of growing the game and future wealth generation by opening up more rugby markets etc etc. NZ, Australia and SA are not exactly small unions.

I'm not seeing the logic. Countries generally LOSE money when they go on tours. Yet if you read the WRU annual reports, you can see Wales made a profit of 1.2m from the last Lions tour. That's 1.2m every 4 years, or 3.6m every 12 years, which is still fair compared to what the Tri nations teams get over a 12 year period when they host the Lions.

I can't see how we can say we should have more money from the Lions when were also saying No to the Englands demands about money on the Heinaken Cup and No to New Zealand when they suggested gate receipts can be shared equally between teams.

Like I said, pot, kettle, black...

by **profitius** Wed Jun 19, 2013 8:31 pm

Shifty wrote:
profitius wrote:The Lions isn't like ordinary internationals. The Lions have no home fixtures and play all their games away from home. As well as that the tour comes at the end of a long season and the Lions players have to play a lot more matches than their host nation players.

At the end of the day SA, NZ and Oz need the Lions more than the Lions need them. Btw, NZ are already getting money to play sides. So another reason why the Lions should be getting a large slice of the pie.

I'm all for helping developing nations BTW. I think the IRB gives back too much money to the top teams and investing in other countries would be much wiser in terms of growing the game and future wealth generation by opening up more rugby markets etc etc. NZ, Australia and SA are not exactly small unions.

I'm not seeing the logic. Countries generally LOSE money when they go on tours. Yet if you read the WRU annual reports, you can see Wales made a profit of 1.2m from the last Lions tour. That's 1.2m every 4 years, or 3.6m every 12 years, which is still fair compared to what the Tri nations teams get over a 12 year period when they host the Lions.

I can't see how we can say we should have more money from the Lions when were also saying No to the Englands demands about money on the Heinaken Cup and No to New Zealand when they suggested gate receipts can be shared equally between teams.

Like I said, pot, kettle, black...

The Lions and Australia are jointly generating the money. Likewise its not only English or French teams that generate the HEC money. Thats a different situation though.

As I said, what is different about the Lions is they don't play at home. If there was a home and away basis to it then the home team keeps the money. The Lions' players are coming back battered, bruised and injured with a shortened summer break so that means more chance of injury. France usually win a grand slam the year after a Lions tour. The teams should be compensated for this.

Does anyone have the 10 year fixture list for the summer tours?

by Shifty Wed Jun 19, 2013 9:00 pm

profitius wrote:Does anyone have the 10 year fixture list for the summer tours?

Scotland

2012
June Tour - Australia 1 / Pacific Islands (2) - 3 tests
November Series - New Zealand, South Africa, Tier 2 Union

2013
June - South Africa (Tournament), (Lions tour Australia same time)
November - South Africa, Australia, Tier 2 Union

2014
June - South Africa, Argentina / North American Team (Usa or Canada)
November - Argentina, New Zealand , Tier 2 Union

2015
World Cup Year (England)

2016
June - New Zealand. Japan (2 tests)
November - Australia, Argentina, Tier 2 Union

2017
June - Australia (Tournament), (Lions will also tour New Zealand)
November - -New Zealand, Australia, Tier Union

2018
June - 2018 - Argentina, North America (2)
November - South Africa, Argentina, Tier 2 Union

2019
World Cup Year (Japan)

England

2012
June - South Africa - 3 tests
November - New Zealand, Fiji, Australia, South Africa

2013
June - Argentina (Lions tour Australia same time) - 2 tests
November - South Africa or Australia, Argentina, New Zealand, Tonga (Optional)

2014
June - New Zealand - 3 tests
November - Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Samoa

2015
World Cup Year (England)

2016
June - Australia - 3 tests
November - New Zealand or Australia, South Africa, Fiji, Argentina

2017
June - Argentina (Lions will also tour New Zealand) - 2 tests
November - New Zealand, Argentina, Australia, Samoa (Optional)

2018
June - South Africa - 3 tests
November - South Africa, New Zealand, Tonga, Australia

2019
June -World Cup Year (Japan)

Wales

2012
June - Australia - 3 tests

2013
June - Japan - 3 tests (Lions tour Australia same time)

2014
June - South Africa - 3 tests

2015
World Cup Year (England)

2016
June - New Zealand - 3 tests

2017
June - Fiji, Samoa, Tonga - 3 tests (Lions will also tour New Zealand)

2018
June - Argentina - 3 tests

2019
June -World Cup Year (Japan)

Ireland

2012
June - New Zealand - 3 tests

2013
June - (Lions tour Australia same time)

2014
June - Australia - 3 tests

2015
World Cup Year (England)

2016
June - South Africa - 3 tests

2017
June - (Lions will also tour New Zealand)

2019
June -World Cup Year (Japan)

France

2013 - New Zealand - 3 tests

Italy

2013 - South Africa

by blackcanelion Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:58 am

Just backing up Shifty. NZ have been trying to profit sharing with the home nations since 1889. I think all the SAANZAR countries and lesser lights would love a profit sharing arrangement. One of the reasons NZ, Australia and SA often play an additional test on the end of year tours is that they get a match fee (http://www.nzherald.co.nz/sport/news/article.cfm?c_id=4&objectid=10765194). Even that is less than the home team makes. Shifty is right in saying NZ has raised the issue in the past (In 2005 the Lions got a share of the revenue, something other international teams didn't get at the time - even if it's less than the home side). Unfortunately it isn't likely to happen. Ultimately, the likes of England, Wales and France would lose to much revenue.

by RubyGuby Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:02 am

Surely we should be receiving the Lions share of all profits thumbsup

by SecretFly Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:08 am

I know money is money and we all want more of it. (Oh yes you do!)

But does the WRU now need the help of a shrink (not mentioning anyone Whistle

) to get them past this absolute obsession with money?

Every point that's ever made about Welsh rugby in the last two, three even four years can be quickly dragged back to a common currency of paper with the Queen's head on it.
The hosting of 2015 WC games, already being hosted by a competing Nation.
The Friday 6N games.
The Regions at war with the tightfisted Union.
The Union heavy into battle with the bad accounting folks at the regions.
Players leaving for French money
English money paying transfer fees
Money,
Money,
Money
Money!

by RubyGuby Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:34 am

SecretFly wrote:I know money is money and we all want more of it. (Oh yes you do!)

But does the WRU now need the help of a shrink (not mentioning anyone ) to get them past this absolute obsession with money?

Every point that's ever made about Welsh rugby in the last two, three even four years can be quickly dragged back to a common currency of paper with the Queen's head on it.
The hosting of 2015 WC games, already being hosted by a competing Nation.
The Friday 6N games.
The Regions at war with the tightfisted Union.
The Union heavy into battle with the bad accounting folks at the regions.
Players leaving for French money
English money paying transfer fees
Money,
Money,
Money
Money!

I have to disagree with this Fly, both the Irish and English Rugby Unions have invested £millions over the past 5 years yet we in Wales have won Grand Slams and Championships and all it costs is 1/2p - Now that's value for money

by SecretFly Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:48 am

Don't jinx the copper clad lad, Ruby.

by Brendan Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:12 pm

Really looking for irelands trip to oz next year esp if lions win this series.
Have to say wales is brave to do a tour of the PIs with a second string team due to the lions.

Also all us home nations still tour but oz only have the lions. It is a bous for sanzar for being better. When we in the NH are good enough to take on a sanzar team by ourself we can complain about money.

by RDSguru Thu Jun 20, 2013 7:23 pm

SecretFly wrote:I know money is money and we all want more of it. (Oh yes you do!)

But does the WRU now need the help of a shrink (not mentioning anyone ) to get them past this absolute obsession with money?

Every point that's ever made about Welsh rugby in the last two, three even four years can be quickly dragged back to a common currency of paper with the Queen's head on it.
The hosting of 2015 WC games, already being hosted by a competing Nation.
The Friday 6N games.
The Regions at war with the tightfisted Union.
The Union heavy into battle with the bad accounting folks at the regions.
Players leaving for French money
English money paying transfer fees
Money,
Money,
Money
Money!

European Competitions, TV Money? Not just Wales/wru

Comes with professionalism does the :boxing:for mighty buck!

by **profitius** Thu Jun 20, 2013 9:02 pm

Shifty wrote:
profitius wrote:Does anyone have the 10 year fixture list for the summer tours?

Scotland

2012
June Tour - Australia 1 / Pacific Islands (2) - 3 tests
November Series - New Zealand, South Africa, Tier 2 Union

2013
June - South Africa (Tournament), (Lions tour Australia same time)
November - South Africa, Australia, Tier 2 Union

2014
June - South Africa, Argentina / North American Team (Usa or Canada)
November - Argentina, New Zealand , Tier 2 Union

2015
World Cup Year (England)

2016
June - New Zealand. Japan (2 tests)
November - Australia, Argentina, Tier 2 Union

2017
June - Australia (Tournament), (Lions will also tour New Zealand)
November - -New Zealand, Australia, Tier Union

2018
June - 2018 - Argentina, North America (2)
November - South Africa, Argentina, Tier 2 Union

2019
World Cup Year (Japan)

England

2012
June - South Africa - 3 tests
November - New Zealand, Fiji, Australia, South Africa

2013
June - Argentina (Lions tour Australia same time) - 2 tests
November - South Africa or Australia, Argentina, New Zealand, Tonga (Optional)

2014
June - New Zealand - 3 tests
November - Australia, New Zealand, South Africa, Samoa

2015
World Cup Year (England)

2016
June - Australia - 3 tests
November - New Zealand or Australia, South Africa, Fiji, Argentina

2017
June - Argentina (Lions will also tour New Zealand) - 2 tests
November - New Zealand, Argentina, Australia, Samoa (Optional)

2018
June - South Africa - 3 tests
November - South Africa, New Zealand, Tonga, Australia

2019
June -World Cup Year (Japan)

Wales

2012
June - Australia - 3 tests

2013
June - Japan - 3 tests (Lions tour Australia same time)

2014
June - South Africa - 3 tests

2015
World Cup Year (England)

2016
June - New Zealand - 3 tests

2017
June - Fiji, Samoa, Tonga - 3 tests (Lions will also tour New Zealand)

2018
June - Argentina - 3 tests

2019
June -World Cup Year (Japan)

Ireland

2012
June - New Zealand - 3 tests

2013
June - (Lions tour Australia same time)

2014
June - Australia - 3 tests

2015
World Cup Year (England)

2016
June - South Africa - 3 tests

2017
June - (Lions will also tour New Zealand)

2019
June -World Cup Year (Japan)

France

2013 - New Zealand - 3 tests

Italy

2013 - South Africa

Thanks for the list.

Wales have just been on a tour to Japan and Ireland have been on a tour to North America. Would it be fair to say the 6 nations teams play tier 2 countries more often? NZ campaign to share gate receipts but they never play any of the PI teams, even though they have a big PI population not to mention players.

by HammerofThunor Thu Jun 20, 2013 10:46 pm

There is no slot in the Calendar for SH teams to tour the SH. That's for us to do

by **Rugby Fan** Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:00 pm

Brendan wrote:...When we in the NH are good enough to take on a sanzar team by ourself...

We are good enough.

by **profitius** Thu Jun 20, 2013 11:16 pm

HammerofThunor wrote:There is no slot in the Calendar for SH teams to tour the SH. That's for us to do

My point still stands. NH teams play tier 2 nations lots more than the big SH 3.

by dallym Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:28 am

The way tours are done now:

down under: the Northern nations come down and play a series
home unions: teams come and play one match and then move onto another country and play another there.

the way the tours are done now certainly allows for more opportunity for the NH sides to play the tier 2s.

If we decide that we have to expect SAANZAR (don't know whether to include Argentina in there, included them anyway) to play the tier 2s then we need to find a slot for them. Either what the ABs are planning to do with Japan this year (expand the idea so the developmental squad plays before the northern tour every year - maybe next year Georgia, after that Romania...) or decide that one year we don't get an Ireland or an England touring, and instead play against the PI sides (3 tests, one against each country)

by blackcanelion Fri Jun 21, 2013 6:32 am

profitius wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:There is no slot in the Calendar for SH teams to tour the SH. That's for us to do

My point still stands. NH teams play tier 2 nations lots more than the big SH 3.

Apples and Oranges mate. Different pressures and options. You've got 6 nations and 4 SAANZAR countries. Ther home nations also have a Lions tour once every 4 years.

by HammerofThunor Fri Jun 21, 2013 8:14 am

profitius wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:There is no slot in the Calendar for SH teams to tour the SH. That's for us to do

My point still stands. NH teams play tier 2 nations lots more than the big SH 3.

The big 3 SH sides should be playing tier 2 nations in Europe, not the pacific. That's the way the IRB want. And we (our unions) want them here as they're the only pretty much given sellouts.

by blackcanelion Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:14 am

HammerofThunor wrote:

profitius wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:There is no slot in the Calendar for SH teams to tour the SH. That's for us to do

My point still stands. NH teams play tier 2 nations lots more than the big SH 3.

The big 3 SH sides should be playing tier 2 nations in Europe, not the pacific. That's the way the IRB want. And we (our unions) want them here as they're the only pretty much given sellouts.

I thought they did. Whistle

by fa0019 Fri Jun 21, 2013 10:22 am

Crazy how Samoa and Argentina are tier 2 teams but regularly beat and are ranked above certain tier 1 nations.

by HammerofThunor Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:15 pm

blackcanelion wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

profitius wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:There is no slot in the Calendar for SH teams to tour the SH. That's for us to do

My point still stands. NH teams play tier 2 nations lots more than the big SH 3.

The big 3 SH sides should be playing tier 2 nations in Europe, not the pacific. That's the way the IRB want. And we (our unions) want them here as they're the only pretty much given sellouts.

I thought they did.

Sorry I meant European tier 2 not tier 2 (6 nations) Smile

by ScarletSpiderman Fri Jun 21, 2013 12:37 pm

SecretFly wrote:I know money is money and we all want more of it. (Oh yes you do!)

But does the WRU now need the help of a shrink (not mentioning anyone ) to get them past this absolute obsession with money?

Every point that's ever made about Welsh rugby in the last two, three even four years can be quickly dragged back to a common currency of paper with the Queen's head on it.
The hosting of 2015 WC games, already being hosted by a competing Nation.
The Friday 6N games.
The Regions at war with the tightfisted Union.
The Union heavy into battle with the bad accounting folks at the regions.
Players leaving for French money
English money paying transfer fees
Money,
Money,
Money
Money!

I think all this money stuff happened the same time as Rog the Dodge came to town.

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