Consequences of a typical Warbaton injury!!!!

If Warbaton get's a typical injured, who comes on.
Lidiot is the only viable option however seems to only be able to "chop tackle", and a poor breakdown operator.It seems almost suicidal not to pick O'Brien, who can play 6,7 and 8 at a high level.

Jack of all trades, master of none O'Brien.

I take it that SOB is carrying a knock as he has been in pretty decent form bar injuries since Christmas plus he has easily been the most consistent and impressive blindside this tour.

The Croft selection was understandable due to lineout issues but Lydiate on the bench is a very strange inclusion.

Same problem if Heaslip gets injured,although he isn't injury prone.Can Croft play 8?

Croft can't play 8 as far as I know, but he has played 7 on occasion. I am worried that Gatland is trying too hard to accommodate a not quite match fit Lydiate.

Of course lydiate can only "chop" tackle! Thats how he made it to the lions team! Faced with handling the ball he runs round in circles, throws the ball in the air then collapses. And he has no idea of what to do with an opposition player already on the floor in front of him with the ball, how could.he?. Dyou really think he's that useless and unversatile?

doddieman wrote:Of course lydiate can only "chop" tackle! Thats how he made it to the lions team! Faced with handling the ball he runs round in circles, throws the ball in the air then collapses. And he has no idea of what to do with an opposition player already on the floor in front of him with the ball, how could.he?. Dyou really think he's that useless and unversatile?

To be fair Lydiate doesn't get seen doing much else so it is understandable people think all he does is tackle, and again it is what he gets praised for too.

I think if Warbs does get injured it will be a loss, but not as much of a loss thanif Heaslip were injured etc.

I remember many people back in the day complaining that Richard Hill was anonymous during games and calling for more flashy dynamic high profile back rowers. It just happened that he was nowhere to be seen because he was always at the bottom of the ruck winning or killing the ball. He made the others look flashy because he gave them the ball to do so. Now widely regarded by many to be one of the greatest flankers ever.

Some people just don't like old school like Lydiate. I'm not saying he is anywhere as good as RH. Just that he is a similar style.

I am a fan of Lydiate but he has not had any serious game time and coming back from injury and he is not back to his best. Which is why I would have preferred Tips or SOB in the 23.

The thing about tomorrow's test is the the Lions cannot afford any injuries. none at all. If Warburton was to get injured, do the Lions have enough cover in the squad...Or will they have to import A, Nother player?

If they have to bring in some other player.  will that player have enough game time to get up too standard of the Lions?

Richard Hill - an English legend and a Welsh Grogg.
http://www.groggs.co.uk/shop/limited_edition_rugby_groggs/0_8_3_866/9richardhill4-5weekdelay.aspx

Risca Rev wrote:Jack of all trades, master of none O'Brien.

Would you not agree that he is a better ball carrier than any other back rower available in the squad?  I'm not sure anyone else is as robust in contact. He also has shown fantastic playmaking skills this tour, and has been used often as first receiver often because of this, keeping the defence guessing.  I have been very impressed with him, after he had a few average games before the tour.  Consistency is his main weakness probably, but when he is on top form there are few as good in the back row.

However, I do agree that O'Brien must nail down one position in the back row because he is going to end up with that "jack of all trades" reputation.  I am not sure where he is best yet, but the position that allows him to do what I outlined above would be best.  That would depend on his other fellow back row forwards and the position they play.

Metal Tiger wrote:I remember many people back in the day complaining that Richard Hill was anonymous during games and calling for more flashy dynamic high profile back rowers. It just happened that he was nowhere to be seen because he was always at the bottom of the ruck winning or killing the ball. He made the others look flashy because he gave them the ball to do so. Now widely regarded by many to be one of the greatest flankers ever.

Some people just don't like old school like Lydiate. I'm not saying he is anywhere as good as RH. Just that he is a similar style.

I am a fan of Lydiate but he has not had any serious game time and coming back from injury and he is not back to his best. Which is why I would have preferred Tips or SOB in the 23.

Wasn't Richard Hill (who was primarily a 7, before moving to accommodate Neil Back) known for his huge work rate at the breakdown though?  As well as his tackling and support play.  This is the problem with these comparisons, they don't actually seem like similar players.

I remember Chris Robshaw being thrown about as a similar player to Hill when he first came on the scene.

The back row seems the only place with sufficient cover. Sob, tips and faletau were doomed to not start tomorrow since last weekend. They'll prob be back.in for tues with the fight for the bench next weekend and test team for next sat. Theres no room for injuries at this end of the tour, seems stupid that the 2 toughest opposition are the midweek games around the tests.
My point earlier is that lydiate like any other player on the tour is a professional at the pinnacle of their game. Just because they're praised for one facet of their game doesn't make them any less capable of any other.

I don't think Lydiate will ever get the praise he fully deserves and thats by some in Wales let alone others outside of Wales.

Like I have said before a fully fit and firing Lydiate would be the first name on my team sheet much like Richard Hill was years back BUT that said I do find his inclusion on the bench a little strange.

SOB would have been the obvious choice due to his versatility.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Metal Tiger wrote:I remember many people back in the day complaining that Richard Hill was anonymous during games and calling for more flashy dynamic high profile back rowers. It just happened that he was nowhere to be seen because he was always at the bottom of the ruck winning or killing the ball. He made the others look flashy because he gave them the ball to do so. Now widely regarded by many to be one of the greatest flankers ever.

Some people just don't like old school like Lydiate. I'm not saying he is anywhere as good as RH. Just that he is a similar style.

I am a fan of Lydiate but he has not had any serious game time and coming back from injury and he is not back to his best. Which is why I would have preferred Tips or SOB in the 23.

Wasn't Richard Hill (who was primarily a 7, before moving to accommodate Neil Back) known for his huge work rate at the breakdown though?  As well as his tackling and support play.  This is the problem with these comparisons, they don't actually seem like similar players.

I remember Chris Robshaw being thrown about as a similar player to Hill when he first came on the scene.

That's why I said similar to... not same as. Lydiate is a work horse at the tackle & breakdown and goes unnoticed... undeservedly so.

As we all know its about balance and combinations, for a long time the Welsh backrow was unbalanced and Ryan Jones' form suffered with Lydiate Faletau and Warburton the balance was right.

I am not saying that should have been the backrow tomorrow because Croft has really changed my opinion on this tour but it was the workrate of Lydiate that allowed Faletau and Warburton to be more affective in their roles for Wales.

Are people forgetting that before his injury lydiate was six nations player of the tournament. He is a class act and deserves a bit of respect. I would have started with him as he works well with Warbs and would stop the Aussies attack at source

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Jack of all trades, master of none O'Brien.

Would you not agree that he is a better ball carrier than any other back rower available in the squad?  I'm not sure anyone else is as robust in contact. He also has shown fantastic playmaking skills this tour, and has been used often as first receiver often because of this, keeping the defence guessing.  I have been very impressed with him, after he had a few average games before the tour.  Consistency is his main weakness probably, but when he is on top form there are few as good in the back row.

However, I do agree that O'Brien must nail down one position in the back row because he is going to end up with that "jack of all trades" reputation.  I am not sure where he is best yet, but the position that allows him to do what I outlined above would be best.  That would depend on his other fellow back row forwards and the position they play.

I'm just treating this thread with the contempt it deserved. Although you're not a Dan Lydiate fan, I'm sure you wouldn't call him lidiot like a child, nor deliberately spell Warburton wrong (given how he nearly managed it before). Good post from you naturally, but this thread isn't worth a serious conversation.

.... Lydiate is now being compared to Richard Hill? Come on...... As Rory Gallagher says Hill was a far more complete player. Importantly Hill was class both as a 6 and a 7- he was comfortable in either position. I would say the two players most like Hill got left behind - Robshaw and Brown. Two players who I would say are far more well rounded back rowers than Lydiate.

Lydiate in comparison is a limited player. He can only cover 6 and is only seen as a tackling machine. He's good at what he does but ultimately he got picked by Gatland based on favouritism. One of the only clear cut bias calls by Gatland I should add.

Lydiate got picked for the Lions based on his 2012 performances. It is 2013 now. In this year he has done nothing to warrant a Lions place yet Welshman still defend him?

They even compare him to Richard Hill? Ridiculous.

O Brien of course should be there instead of Lydiate. Lydiate should not be touring. What does Lydiate do that Brown and Robshaw could not? Both Brown and Robshaw are far more versatile, showed decent form in the 6 nations yet were overlooked for an unfit limited player who has not played for most of the season.

Odd that some posters can't see where Gatland has got it horribly wrong.

Risca Rev wrote:

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:Jack of all trades, master of none O'Brien.

Would you not agree that he is a better ball carrier than any other back rower available in the squad?  I'm not sure anyone else is as robust in contact. He also has shown fantastic playmaking skills this tour, and has been used often as first receiver often because of this, keeping the defence guessing.  I have been very impressed with him, after he had a few average games before the tour.  Consistency is his main weakness probably, but when he is on top form there are few as good in the back row.

However, I do agree that O'Brien must nail down one position in the back row because he is going to end up with that "jack of all trades" reputation.  I am not sure where he is best yet, but the position that allows him to do what I outlined above would be best.  That would depend on his other fellow back row forwards and the position they play.

I'm just treating this thread with the contempt it deserved. Although you're not a Dan Lydiate fan, I'm sure you wouldn't call him lidiot like a child, nor deliberately spell Warburton wrong (given how he nearly managed it before). Good post from you naturally, but this thread isn't worth a serious conversation.

I didn't even notice that one.. Lidiot. 

beshocked wrote:.... Lydiate is now being compared to Richard Hill? Come on...... 

Odd that some posters can't see where Gatland has got it horribly wrong.

Yes we can, Matt Stevens and Owen Farrell should not be on tour. Farrell senior hasn't really shone as a defence coach. Gats should have taken Shaun Edwards.

theslosty wrote:I take it that SOB is carrying a knock as he has been in pretty decent form bar injuries since Christmas plus he has easily been the most consistent and impressive blindside this tour.

The Croft selection was understandable due to lineout issues but Lydiate on the bench is a very strange inclusion.

Has he? He's only played two games there - one against combined country where he looked good (but then Hogg looked good at 10 in that game), and the other against the Brumbies where he didn't play well. Doesn't sound particularly consistent.

I'd also have had him on the bench, but I'm not sure his form on this tour is quite what people are making out.

Maestegmafia I would agree about Stevens even though he has actually played this season. As usual you continue your foolish one eyed vendetta vs the Farrells.

Farrell Jr has done a lot in the 2012/13 season. Sure he's had bad games but also good ones too. Nothing I will say will change your bitter attitude vs him anyway.

He is a good young player who gets far more criticism than he deserves. Plus he has played this season too.

Perhaps Gatland should have taken Edwards but the tests will be the judge of that.

I don't see how that is a suitable defence for Lydiate though. Will you show some humility for once and acknowledge that Lydiate should not be touring.

maestegmafia 

Farrell's form since the Barbarians game has been perfectly fine, and even if it hasn't that wouldn't prove that he shouldn't be touring. None of the fly halves at home are in Sexton's class either.

Also: 2009, Lions concede 9 tries in 6 warm up games. 2013, they concede 8 tries in 6 warm up games.

That's very subject to the strength of opposition and Lions selection, but I don't see on what basis you're confidently saying that Gatland has made a big mistake by taking Farrell sr when the tests haven't started yet and his record in warm ups is largely similar to Edwards.

thomh wrote:

theslosty wrote:I take it that SOB is carrying a knock as he has been in pretty decent form bar injuries since Christmas plus he has easily been the most consistent and impressive blindside this tour.

The Croft selection was understandable due to lineout issues but Lydiate on the bench is a very strange inclusion.

Has he? He's only played two games there - one against combined country where he looked good (but then Hogg looked good at 10 in that game), and the other against the Brumbies where he didn't play well. Doesn't sound particularly consistent.

I'd also have had him on the bench, but I'm not sure his form on this tour is quite what people are making out.

He has had three games actually, and the southern media have been giving him rave reviews, just as they did when he came up against McCaw in the NZ tour last year.  His last game was average just like everyone else, because they probably knew they had just been selected as the B side in what was a shocking team selection.

I have been hugely impressed with him this tour, after being rather disappointed with some performances beforehand. If you read the stats that AsLongAs collected on another thread, he has the highest average rating from different media outlets out of any other back rower.  His average scores have been an 8 in the first game, and a 9 in the second.  A 6 in the third, which Lydiate got in the first game.

Rory_Gallagher wrote:

thomh wrote:

theslosty wrote:I take it that SOB is carrying a knock as he has been in pretty decent form bar injuries since Christmas plus he has easily been the most consistent and impressive blindside this tour.

The Croft selection was understandable due to lineout issues but Lydiate on the bench is a very strange inclusion.

Has he? He's only played two games there - one against combined country where he looked good (but then Hogg looked good at 10 in that game), and the other against the Brumbies where he didn't play well. Doesn't sound particularly consistent.

I'd also have had him on the bench, but I'm not sure his form on this tour is quite what people are making out.

He has had three games actually, and the southern media have been giving him rave reviews, just as they did when he came up against McCaw in the NZ tour last year.  His last game was average just like everyone else, because they probably knew they had just been selected as the B side in what was a shocking team selection.

I have been hugely impressed with him this tour, after being rather disappointed with some performances beforehand. If you read the stats that AsLongAs collected on another thread, he has the highest average rating from different media outlets out of any other back rower.  His average scores have been an 8 in the first game, and a 9 in the second.  A 6 in the third, which Lydiate got in the first game.

Not at blindside though, which was the specific comment I was referring to. He has been playing pretty well overall and, as I said, I would have him on the bench, but I can't get that excited about big carrying performances against  those teams. It's the same reason that I didn't have Vunipola in my starting team. His carrying and offloading has been great but how well does it translate to meaningful games?

It isn't just his carrying though, it is his playmaking skills, offloading and skills at first receiver that have impressed people most.  His support play has been fantastic.  This is why I believe that both O'Brien and Tipuric would look very good together, both are very skilful flankers.  You are right of course though, the argument would be that these performances have been at 7. Although many irish fans believe he is a better player in the 6 shirt and is being wasted at 7.

O'Brien cannot choose the opposition he plays, he can only play his best against what is in front of him.  The only way for you to be proved right or wrong, would be for O'Brien to play against Australia and show us what he can do.

Oh dear - still way too much angst about who should be touring.

I too was surprised that O'Brien wasn't on the bench. Perhaps he should have played better against the Brumbies - but he didn't, he was poor. Perhaps he has a knock? I don't know. Who cares?

If we win the series so what - if we don't then that's the time to disect Gatland and his "wrong" selection decisions.

beshocked wrote:Maestegmafia I would agree about Stevens even though he has actually played this season. As usual you continue your foolish one eyed vendetta vs the Farrells.

Farrell Jr has done a lot in the 2012/13 season. Sure he's had bad games but also good ones too. Nothing I will say will change your bitter attitude vs him anyway.

He is a good young player who gets far more criticism than he deserves. Plus he has played this season too.

Perhaps Gatland should have taken Edwards but the tests will be the judge of that.

I don't see how that is a suitable defence for Lydiate though. Will you show some humility for once and acknowledge that Lydiate should not be touring.

Name them...! I haven't seen him play a good game of rugby for anyone.

How can this be a vendetta

He was very good indeed for England against Scotland, and also for Saracens for most of the season until the Toulon Semi-Final. Gave Quins a very hard time when we went there just after the Six Nations.

Thom we need spectacular not just good. I don't see him able to do anything that other lads, from Hodgson to Madigan, wouldn't do much better.

You said that you'd never seen him play a good game of rugby. When I point a few of them out the stakes suddenly get raised to spectacular.

I don't think Farrell is all that brilliant, but neither are Flood, Biggar, Laidlaw etc.

thomh wrote:You said that you'd never seen him play a good game of rugby. When I point a few of them out the stakes suddenly get raised to spectacular.

I don't think Farrell is all that brilliant, but neither are Flood, Biggar, Laidlaw etc.

My personal choice would have been Hodgson. But I read recently on another website forum that he didnt want to be considered due to fitness worries.


Madigan would have been an excellent choice too.

Hopefully Farrell won't be needed.


With regards to the games you mentioned I don't think he really made a huge impact, he is still obviously learning how to boss a game.

Thinking about it, very hard, the best game I have seen Farrell play was England vs Wales at Twickenham 2012 six nations.

offload wrote:Oh dear - still way too much angst about who should be touring.

I too was surprised that O'Brien wasn't on the bench.  Perhaps he should have played better against the Brumbies - but he didn't, he was poor.  Perhaps he has a knock?  I don't know.  Who cares?

If we win the series so what - if we don't then that's the time to disect Gatland and his "wrong" selection decisions.

As poor as Lydiate in the first game I guess?  He made his tackles (like everyone said about Lydiate in the first game) and he did his job.  Beat one defender.  What is the difference then?

I don't see the angst btw, people are allowed to give their opinions on why certain players should be playing over others.  It would be pretty boring if we all agreed on it.  If we win the series, that doesn't mean I am going to change my mind that I would rather have seen a certain player selected.  That is a silly argument.  You can win the series and still make mistakes.

Lydiate scored in his poor game