Lions changes?

by t1000advancedprototype Sat Jun 22, 2013 1:03 pm

First topic message reminder :

Gatland will keep the same team, but Phillips is questionable and I'd like to see Lydiate start.

WAY too many missed tackles today.

by Duty281 Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:31 pm

Youngs in for Phillips would be my only change. Unless Roberts recovers from injury, in which case he can come in for Davies.

by maestegmafia Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:31 pm

LeinsterFan4life wrote:The ref was fine except for the first penalty against BOD which was about as legal as you can get.

I like his referring style in that likes to keep the game flowing instead of constantly blowing his whistle like a lot of the french refs.

The referee said that BODs knees were resting on the tackled player and therefor he was not allowed to touch the ball.

Stag might be a good man to clarify, but I think the law states that knees on the floor means your tackled. I guess that Mr Pollock counts a tackled player as the ground.

by Hookisms and Hyperbole Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:34 pm

nathan wrote:
It's a shame blues isn't still here, would of liked to hear about he thought Tom youngs is crap.

And how we are all wrong and Phillips had a great game IMHO !!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!!

by valtrepkos Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:36 pm

Sin é wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:Phillips and Warburton were disappointing. I'd change them for Youngs and Tipuric.

And I'd either start Lydiate or not have him in the 22. I think O'Brien would be a much better player to spring from the bench than Lydiate.

I'd reunite Sexton with Murray who is a much more rounded SH as he has a good pass. The only similarity between Murray & Phillips is that they are both tall and dark.

The only reason why Youngs made the bench (because he has been poor so far) is because he is used to playing with Farrell. Gatland put all his eggs in one basket by putting Sexton with Phillips - he should have seen that Phillips was poor against the Tahs when paired with Sexton.

Turnovers won by the Lions (according to official B&I Lions stats)

Heaslip 2
Sexton, North, Davies & Mako 1 each.

That's just plain incorrect - Youngs is leagues above Murray as a 9!

by sensisball Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:49 pm

Its a shame there isnt an alternative to Cole for the bench as the scrum was hugely weakened (on his side) when he came on. Agreed that i would start with Lydiate as we need to deny the Aussie forwards any momentum and his tackling would help enormously.
If Roberts is fit he starts in my book. Davies is a 13, an outstanding one, but he doesnt carry as well as Roberts. The Lions failed to get midfield go forward because of his absence.
If Bowe is fit i would probably put him on the bench ahead of Maitland. Cuthbert scored a lovely try but looked suspect in defence but Gatland wont drop him.

by t1000advancedprototype Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:50 pm

Fair play to BOD being a decoy for Cuffbutt's try.

Genius.

by nathan Sat Jun 22, 2013 3:54 pm

Bowe has been declared fit for the next test

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:01 pm

nathan wrote:Bowe has been declared fit for the next test

Has he?

by nathan Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:03 pm

wales606 wrote:
nathan wrote:Bowe has been declared fit for the next test

Has he?

http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/LionsinAustralia/Bowe-available-for-Melbourne-20130622

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:03 pm

Team for next week.

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Adam
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. POC
6. SOB
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts/JD2
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

16. Hibbard
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Gray/Parling
20. Tipuric
21. Phillips
22. Farrell
23. JD2/Cuthbert.

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:04 pm

nathan wrote:
wales606 wrote:
nathan wrote:Bowe has been declared fit for the next test

Has he?
http://www.sport24.co.za/Rugby/LionsinAustralia/Bowe-available-for-Melbourne-20130622

by nathan Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:05 pm

wales606 wrote:Team for next week.

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Adam
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. POC
6. SOB
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts/JD2
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

16. Hibbard
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Gray/Parling
20. Tipuric
21. Phillips
22. Farrell
23. JD2/Cuthbert.

No tuilagi?

by jelly Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:06 pm

Jhamer25 wrote:
jelly wrote:Think the front 5 should all stay in, did well. Would have liked to see a bit more carrying from AWJ and POC but don't think Parling would have done much more. Subs likely to be the same but they need to add more impetus, the scrum struggled from the moment Jones and Corbs went off.

The back row struggled and I think Croft and Heaslip (surprised he hasn't been mentioned more on this thread as I thought he had a poor game) will be replaced. Tips, Warburton and Faletau may get a go again.

I thought Phillips really struggled, just didn't seem up for it like he usually is. Their first try was a bit embarrassing for him and if you look at the replay from behind our line he looked like he gave up (I thought he must have been injured but he can't have been as he stayed on).

Outside Phillips I thought they all did well enough going forward but some shocking defending at times. Both tries came from very simple moves and players not even getting close enough to make a tackle (Phillips for the first, Sexton for the second). I wouldn't be surprised to see Roberts/Tuilagi at 12 next week - Davies didn't do a lot wrong but didn't make any hard yards. Bowe for Cuthbert is a possibility as, apart from the try, he struggled a bit.

The positive is that the Lions won and will know they can play a lot better. The negative is that the Aussies can also play a lot better and only lost by 2 pts despite all the injuries they had.

Heaslip was amazing so I don't know what your on about, apart from that though you are spot on.
People are being hash on Phillips as well, Robbie Deans clearly saw him as the Lions' main threat and coached them into stopping his game. Mowen was on him all game so even though he wasn't his brilliant self, it's also not really his fault he played bad, the Australians just watched and adapted to his style of game. Wouldn't have Young's he is shocking in defence

I'd be interested to see the stats on Heaslip as I didn't think he did much carrying and the back of the scrum was a mess on too many occasions. I thought he should have got the ball out quickly for that scrum with 2 minutes to go that nearly gifted them the game.

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:09 pm

nathan wrote:
wales606 wrote:Team for next week.

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Adam
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. POC
6. SOB
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts/JD2
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

16. Hibbard
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Gray/Parling
20. Tipuric
21. Phillips
22. Farrell
23. JD2/Cuthbert.
No tuilagi?

Roberts is a defensive rock in midfield - I think we could really use that against these Aus backs, Wales certainly missed him last year in Aus

Tuilagi plays more at 13, I think he will play 12 on Tuesday to try to prove a point

I don't think Robert will be fit enough to train though, so Gats could start Tuilagi, but I think I would rather he stuck with JD2 if that is the case (JD2 had a very solid game and really grew into the 12 position in the second half, his defence was also very good)

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:13 pm

jelly wrote:

I'd be interested to see the stats on Heaslip as I didn't think he did much carrying and the back of the scrum was a mess on too many occasions. I thought he should have got the ball out quickly for that scrum with 2 minutes to go that nearly gifted them the game.

10 carries, made 13 metres

I wasn't that impressed with Heaslip today, there is really nothing between him and Faletau if you ask me - neither have put their hand up.

We could really use Ben Morgan at 8 if we don't have carriers at 6. I think Morgan would be the starting 8 if he hadn't gotten injured and missed out on selection.

Equally, I think Robshaw and Ryan Jones would be really pushing for a place too.

6. Robshaw
7. Warburton
8. Morgan

That would be my backrow at the moment, it is just more balanced than a lot we have seen on tour, and with R.Jones/SOB/Tipuric on the bench we could really have some impact.

by jelly Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:25 pm

13 metres from 10 carries kind of sums it up, would expect my no.8 to make more yards. Mind you, their no.8 didn't do any better.

The one thing you realise from commenting on here is that it is incredibly difficult to accurately judge every players performance from one viewing. The people you are watching it with also influence your view as if someone says that X is playing badly you tend to notice more. The guys I was watching with all agreed that Cuthbert was having a bad game just before he took his try so well Very Happy

by Sin é Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:27 pm

wales606 wrote:
jelly wrote:

I'd be interested to see the stats on Heaslip as I didn't think he did much carrying and the back of the scrum was a mess on too many occasions. I thought he should have got the ball out quickly for that scrum with 2 minutes to go that nearly gifted them the game.

10 carries, made 13 metres

I wasn't that impressed with Heaslip today, there is really nothing between him and Faletau if you ask me - neither have put their hand up.

We could really use Ben Morgan at 8 if we don't have carriers at 6. I think Morgan would be the starting 8 if he hadn't gotten injured and missed out on selection.

Equally, I think Robshaw and Ryan Jones would be really pushing for a place too.

6. Robshaw
7. Warburton
8. Morgan

That would be my backrow at the moment, it is just more balanced than a lot we have seen on tour, and with R.Jones/SOB/Tipuric on the bench we could really have some impact.

Heaslips stats today:

Won most turnovers (2). Made 8 tackles (missing none). Took 4 lineouts. Beat 1 Defender. Made 6 passes.

compared to Warburton - 12 tackles (missing 1) then it was 0, 0. 0,

by nathan Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:32 pm

wales606 wrote:
nathan wrote:
wales606 wrote:Team for next week.

1. Corbs
2. Youngs
3. Adam
4. Alun Wyn Jones
5. POC
6. SOB
7. Warburton
8. Heaslip
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts/JD2
13. BOD
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

16. Hibbard
17. Vunipola
18. Cole
19. Gray/Parling
20. Tipuric
21. Phillips
22. Farrell
23. JD2/Cuthbert.
No tuilagi?

Roberts is a defensive rock in midfield - I think we could really use that against these Aus backs, Wales certainly missed him last year in Aus

Tuilagi plays more at 13, I think he will play 12 on Tuesday to try to prove a point

I don't think Robert will be fit enough to train though, so Gats could start Tuilagi, but I think I would rather he stuck with JD2 if that is the case (JD2 had a very solid game and really grew into the 12 position in the second half, his defence was also very good)

Ah cool, I've been reading that Manu may be starting on Tuesday. Hoping that he's more refreshed, he looked tired last time.

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:32 pm

Sin é wrote:
wales606 wrote:
jelly wrote:

I'd be interested to see the stats on Heaslip as I didn't think he did much carrying and the back of the scrum was a mess on too many occasions. I thought he should have got the ball out quickly for that scrum with 2 minutes to go that nearly gifted them the game.

10 carries, made 13 metres

I wasn't that impressed with Heaslip today, there is really nothing between him and Faletau if you ask me - neither have put their hand up.

We could really use Ben Morgan at 8 if we don't have carriers at 6. I think Morgan would be the starting 8 if he hadn't gotten injured and missed out on selection.

Equally, I think Robshaw and Ryan Jones would be really pushing for a place too.

6. Robshaw
7. Warburton
8. Morgan

That would be my backrow at the moment, it is just more balanced than a lot we have seen on tour, and with R.Jones/SOB/Tipuric on the bench we could really have some impact.

Heaslips stats today:

Won most turnovers (2). Made 8 tackles (missing none). Took 4 lineouts. Beat 1 Defender. Made 6 passes.

compared to Warburton - 12 tackles (missing 1) then it was 0, 0. 0,

Oh, I wasn't aware we were comparing Heaslip and Warburton

Are we playing Warburton at 8 next week?

What are the stats on rucks cleared out, and Aus ball slowed down at vital times?

Or do you want to play Heaslip at 7? Pretty risky strategy if you ask me.

by jelly Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:40 pm

As wales606 alludes to, stats don't tell the whole story - especially if you only select certain ones.

My first impression was that Heaslip didn't do enough. Not that he was awful, just not as involved as I wanted him to be. That may be wrong but it was my first impression. If he is picked next week I won't be gutted.

by Sin é Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:47 pm

wales606 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
wales606 wrote:
jelly wrote:

I'd be interested to see the stats on Heaslip as I didn't think he did much carrying and the back of the scrum was a mess on too many occasions. I thought he should have got the ball out quickly for that scrum with 2 minutes to go that nearly gifted them the game.

10 carries, made 13 metres

I wasn't that impressed with Heaslip today, there is really nothing between him and Faletau if you ask me - neither have put their hand up.

We could really use Ben Morgan at 8 if we don't have carriers at 6. I think Morgan would be the starting 8 if he hadn't gotten injured and missed out on selection.

Equally, I think Robshaw and Ryan Jones would be really pushing for a place too.

6. Robshaw
7. Warburton
8. Morgan

That would be my backrow at the moment, it is just more balanced than a lot we have seen on tour, and with R.Jones/SOB/Tipuric on the bench we could really have some impact.

Heaslips stats today:

Won most turnovers (2). Made 8 tackles (missing none). Took 4 lineouts. Beat 1 Defender. Made 6 passes.

compared to Warburton - 12 tackles (missing 1) then it was 0, 0. 0,

Oh, I wasn't aware we were comparing Heaslip and Warburton

Are we playing Warburton at 8 next week?

What are the stats on rucks cleared out, and Aus ball slowed down at vital times?

Or do you want to play Heaslip at 7? Pretty risky strategy if you ask me.

Heaslip won 2 turnovers - what you'd expect from your 7. He might have had more and better carries if he wasn't tied up doing that.

by glamorganalun Sat Jun 22, 2013 4:49 pm

Sin é wrote:
wales606 wrote:
jelly wrote:

I'd be interested to see the stats on Heaslip as I didn't think he did much carrying and the back of the scrum was a mess on too many occasions. I thought he should have got the ball out quickly for that scrum with 2 minutes to go that nearly gifted them the game.

10 carries, made 13 metres

I wasn't that impressed with Heaslip today, there is really nothing between him and Faletau if you ask me - neither have put their hand up.

We could really use Ben Morgan at 8 if we don't have carriers at 6. I think Morgan would be the starting 8 if he hadn't gotten injured and missed out on selection.

Equally, I think Robshaw and Ryan Jones would be really pushing for a place too.

6. Robshaw
7. Warburton
8. Morgan

That would be my backrow at the moment, it is just more balanced than a lot we have seen on tour, and with R.Jones/SOB/Tipuric on the bench we could really have some impact.

Heaslips stats today:

Won most turnovers (2). Made 8 tackles (missing none). Took 4 lineouts. Beat 1 Defender. Made 6 passes.

compared to Warburton - 12 tackles (missing 1) then it was 0, 0. 0,

How can you compare two different positions, not many 7's are expected to win line outs, 8 or 6 maybe, the 8 tends to get his hands on the ball from the back of the scrum 7 does not so to compare is rubbish. 13m from an 8 when the team has the the greater possession does not sound impressive to me but is it because another player has gone AWOL. Warburton was OK as was Heaslip but no better, Croft for me is not a 6 for a test match with well matched sides, I would rather Robshaw, R Jones, Brown or Wood but great for the mid week matches when the Lions are well on top.

by Sin é Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:02 pm

glamorganalun wrote:
Sin é wrote:
wales606 wrote:
jelly wrote:

I'd be interested to see the stats on Heaslip as I didn't think he did much carrying and the back of the scrum was a mess on too many occasions. I thought he should have got the ball out quickly for that scrum with 2 minutes to go that nearly gifted them the game.

10 carries, made 13 metres

I wasn't that impressed with Heaslip today, there is really nothing between him and Faletau if you ask me - neither have put their hand up.

We could really use Ben Morgan at 8 if we don't have carriers at 6. I think Morgan would be the starting 8 if he hadn't gotten injured and missed out on selection.

Equally, I think Robshaw and Ryan Jones would be really pushing for a place too.

6. Robshaw
7. Warburton
8. Morgan

That would be my backrow at the moment, it is just more balanced than a lot we have seen on tour, and with R.Jones/SOB/Tipuric on the bench we could really have some impact.

Heaslips stats today:

Won most turnovers (2). Made 8 tackles (missing none). Took 4 lineouts. Beat 1 Defender. Made 6 passes.

compared to Warburton - 12 tackles (missing 1) then it was 0, 0. 0,

How can you compare two different positions, not many 7's are expected to win line outs, 8 or 6 maybe, the 8 tends to get his hands on the ball from the back of the scrum 7 does not so to compare is rubbish. 13m from an 8 when the team has the the greater possession does not sound impressive to me but is it because another player has gone AWOL. Warburton was OK as was Heaslip but no better, Croft for me is not a 6 for a test match with well matched sides, I would rather Robshaw, R Jones, Brown or Wood but great for the mid week matches when the Lions are well on top.

I was responding to a post which said that Heislip did nothing! He did (and some of that was Warburton's job). Generally, I'm no fan of Heaslips, but he had an excellent game today. Croft who is noted for his carries made 2 for 16 metres.

It should also be noted that Heaslip had Genia, the best scrum half on his back when it came to scrumtime.

by Metal Tiger Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:16 pm

Looseheaded wrote:
Thomond wrote:This Croft did nothing is absolute bollix. 7 tackles, 4 lineout takes, 6 runs for 16m. Warburton tackled, that's it, he was playing as a 7 and he needed to do more and didn't.

IT IS NOT A BLINDSIDE'S JOB TO MAKE RUNS IN SPACE AND LINEOUT TAKES!

It is not a bad thing, but you can't blame your openside for playing like a six then use attributes and stats that support the fact that our blindside doesn't play like one

It's more important to make lots of tackles than it is to get a couple of classy steals

Utter rubbish. There is no rule book that says how a 6 or 7 should play. It's all about balance.

by Sin é Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:19 pm

valtrepkos wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:Phillips and Warburton were disappointing. I'd change them for Youngs and Tipuric.

And I'd either start Lydiate or not have him in the 22. I think O'Brien would be a much better player to spring from the bench than Lydiate.

I'd reunite Sexton with Murray who is a much more rounded SH as he has a good pass. The only similarity between Murray & Phillips is that they are both tall and dark.

The only reason why Youngs made the bench (because he has been poor so far) is because he is used to playing with Farrell. Gatland put all his eggs in one basket by putting Sexton with Phillips - he should have seen that Phillips was poor against the Tahs when paired with Sexton.

Turnovers won by the Lions (according to official B&I Lions stats)

Heaslip 2
Sexton, North, Davies & Mako 1 each.

That's just plain incorrect - Youngs is leagues above Murray as a 9!

He didn't look like that against the Brumbies. And Phillips outplayed him in the 6Ns (and Murray outplayed Phillips).

Murray is very under rated. His pass is way better than Youngs as well.

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:26 pm

Sin é wrote:
valtrepkos wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:Phillips and Warburton were disappointing. I'd change them for Youngs and Tipuric.

And I'd either start Lydiate or not have him in the 22. I think O'Brien would be a much better player to spring from the bench than Lydiate.

I'd reunite Sexton with Murray who is a much more rounded SH as he has a good pass. The only similarity between Murray & Phillips is that they are both tall and dark.

The only reason why Youngs made the bench (because he has been poor so far) is because he is used to playing with Farrell. Gatland put all his eggs in one basket by putting Sexton with Phillips - he should have seen that Phillips was poor against the Tahs when paired with Sexton.

Turnovers won by the Lions (according to official B&I Lions stats)

Heaslip 2
Sexton, North, Davies & Mako 1 each.

That's just plain incorrect - Youngs is leagues above Murray as a 9!

He didn't look like that against the Brumbies. And Phillips outplayed him in the 6Ns (and Murray outplayed Phillips).

Murray is very under rated. His pass is way better than Youngs as well.

If you are going by that logic, then Wales beat England and Ireland beat Wales so the whole team should be Irishmen! Pity England beat Ireland really.

Murray was awful in the game against England and got shown up by Youngs.

Youngs is the better option at the moment, and I would start him next weekend.

by offload Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:27 pm

There's a lot of nonsense written here today by posters who claim to know something about the game - and very little credit being given to a good Aussie pack performance.

The Lions front 5 went well. Particularly Youngs, POC and AWJ. The two locks tackled made yards and hit plenty of rucks. I thought the back row were ok - not fantastic but ok and they adapted well to a ref giving NOTHING to the defending team. Croft and Warburton had far better games than many here are admitting. Heasllip, for me, didn't carry enough and although he didn't play badly, we are missing a big carrying 8.

Phillips was poor - didn't adapt and is the only player I would drop. If Bowe is fit there's a case for dropping Cuthbert whose defence was again suspect.

Next week will require a massive step up again. IMO Australia were the better team and unlucky to loose. Their forward effort was massive and Genia was the best player on the pitch.

A fantastic match awaits next week.

by Sin é Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:40 pm

wales606 wrote:
Sin é wrote:
valtrepkos wrote:
Sin é wrote:
Feckless Rogue wrote:Phillips and Warburton were disappointing. I'd change them for Youngs and Tipuric.

And I'd either start Lydiate or not have him in the 22. I think O'Brien would be a much better player to spring from the bench than Lydiate.

I'd reunite Sexton with Murray who is a much more rounded SH as he has a good pass. The only similarity between Murray & Phillips is that they are both tall and dark.

The only reason why Youngs made the bench (because he has been poor so far) is because he is used to playing with Farrell. Gatland put all his eggs in one basket by putting Sexton with Phillips - he should have seen that Phillips was poor against the Tahs when paired with Sexton.

Turnovers won by the Lions (according to official B&I Lions stats)

Heaslip 2
Sexton, North, Davies & Mako 1 each.

That's just plain incorrect - Youngs is leagues above Murray as a 9!

He didn't look like that against the Brumbies. And Phillips outplayed him in the 6Ns (and Murray outplayed Phillips).

Murray is very under rated. His pass is way better than Youngs as well.

If you are going by that logic, then Wales beat England and Ireland beat Wales so the whole team should be Irishmen! Pity England beat Ireland really.

Murray was awful in the game against England and got shown up by Youngs.

Youngs is the better option at the moment, and I would start him next weekend.

Head to head: Murray outplayed Phillips in the game in the Millenium Stadium. Phillips outplayed Youngs in the Millenium stadium.

A bit unfair on Murray bearing in mind the injury list Ireland had in the 6Ns. Even without Paul O'Connell, Ireland managed to beat Wales in the Millenium.

by Ulster12 Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:42 pm

Saw on the replay for Folaus first try that Croft looked to be punctured and jogging which wasn't great effort for a lions test match,but that was a long phase of play I suppose!

Thought Warburton was being a bit of a ruck inspector early on, hanging in the pillar position but not in the 3 poiny stance, again I think he was struggling to adjust to the pace of the game.

Heaslip failed to control at the base a couple of times. All in all they all made mistakes but I thought they all gave it everything they had in a game that was played at a very high pace where it was tough to get on with traditional back row 'jobs'. More of just try and tackle,hit rucks and try to support the backs as much as your burning lungs will allow!

SOB and Tipuric wouldve been blowing too I think, but both are great operators when the game breaks up so maybe they could've been weapons off the bench!! Maybe we will see next week!

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:42 pm

I don't think a game from January is going to have much impact on who starts for the Lions in June now that they are all in camp.

by PJHolybloke Sat Jun 22, 2013 5:43 pm

I think that sometimes we can get a little bit tied up in the numbers that the back row wear on their jerseys. 6/7/8 are all there to do a job for the team.

Between them they need to chop down carriers coming round the fringes, they need to be there in the 10 channel with and without the ball and they need to carry some hard yards when necessary.

Who is doing what with which number on their back is largely irrelevant as long as, in total, they all contribute to that area of the team gameplan.

I thought the back row was absolutely fine today, nothing standout, but holisticly (word?) speaking, just fine.

I would like Gats to have a look at making room for Tipuric and Felatau, start with Tipuric, Warburton and Heaslip and have Croft and Felatau on the bench. With the 3 front rowers and 2 halfback replacements, that would leave the bench light in terms of backs, but if the same backs start the next Test, you could drop Bowe or Roberts (fitness permitting) on the bench and cover most eventualities...

by Sin é Sat Jun 22, 2013 7:04 pm

wales606 wrote:I don't think a game from January is going to have much impact on who starts for the Lions in June now that they are all in camp.

Phillips is starting on reputation earned against SA 4 years ago. All he brings to the game is his physicality. Up against a physical SH like Murray that he can't beat up, and he loses.

by Guest Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:19 pm

If Gatland insists on on picking Phillips he must put in either Roberts or Tuilagi at IC in order to carry the ball back up to the gainline.

Sexton won't play flat until he gets quicker ball.

Phillips laboured style simply is not suited to playing SH teams who play with far more pace. The Oz had a flanker in midfield and the Lions really should have capitalised and failed pretty badly apart from the Cuthbert try with the use of some judicious blocking.

The scrum remains a lottery, so it becomes vital to secure setpiece at the lineout.

The Lions rode their luck today.

by Newsilure Sat Jun 22, 2013 8:38 pm

Phillip's had a tough day at the office but even man marked he didn't turn the ball over and got the ball out most of the time, if the Wallabies hadn't had to dedicate a man to watching him how much more of a mess could that flanker have made if free to roam. Without Robert's in the team they were able to focus on marking Phillip's.

Although no one played badly, I think we just had the balance wrong in a couple of combinations and next week, if fit, I would bring back Roberts for Davies.... who played ok but didn't look great at inside centre and didn't give the opposition much to think about. I'd also start with Lydiate and have Croft or SOB on the bench.... with a tackling 6 in there the ball may not have found its way so often to Folau

by Looseheaded Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:31 pm

those arguing for or against Croft should have a look at the first Aus try, he came shooting out the line from nowhere for some reason or another which led to the outnumbered defence

by fa0019 Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:35 pm

The problem for Phillips was that he never had front foot ball to work with... Yes he had phase after phase but it was all pedestrian, standing start stuff... No one ever game bolting down his channel... allowing him to quickly arrive at the subsequent ruck and then play off that.

That said he can't manage a pack, can't engineer space. Youngs always has looked decent against Genia and he did again today.

AUS will think... This is the best they have.. And yet after us not playing since dec we lost by 2 points, missed 5 kicks and had a shot to win a the death.
Other than Bowe we won't get any better.... Tuilagi needs to have a stormer on tuesday and if so I'd start him as no one gave us front foot ball bar north all day.

I'd go with

Corbisiero, youngs, cole, jones, O'Connell, croft, warburton, Heaslip, youngs, sexton, north, tuilagi, odriscoll, Bowe, halfpenny.

Vunipola, Hubbard, jones, gray, o'brien, Phillips, Farrell, Davies.

Jones did nothing wrong but he was very very quiet. Cole offers a lot more on the park and warburton struggled on his own. Cole is one of the best come ruck time... Like Healy.

Croft wasn't great but with chaps like Folau you need his cover defence.. And without him in the lineout we will struggle.

Tuilagi is dependent on how he plays on Tuesday.... We need someone who can give us front foot ball. Davies can't do that, Roberts is injured and odriscoll had scraps all evening because of it.

Parling is a luxury player, he need beef in the scrum on the bench. Gray needs to come back. We almost lost the game due to a scrum penalty because the front row didn't have aw jones behind them.

Sometimes I think lydiate should start 6 but it looks like croft is being directed out of the middle of the park to cover the wings especially cuthbert. I don't think we need a tackling machine against AUS as I think we did ok.... Folau needs to be marked though.

AUS are in a bit of a problem... 3 centres out and no genuine kicker. The best kicker left in AUS is mike Harris and he's been only a bench player this season at the reds.
I think they may need to bring back cooper... Push O'Connor to 12 and put either Harris or Horne to 13.

Ioane was poor but with cooper around he will be far more deadly. Can deans swallow his pride???

AUS need to blast the lions out of the park... With no kicker better than 70% they need to score tries to win and heavily. You won't get that with O'Connor directing.. Nor Beale who is more useful as a second receiver.sounds likea time for quade... Deans will hate that though.
Let deans implode AUS though through his lack of reality... Who are we to care.

by Guest Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:53 pm

I would not drop Adam Jones. We simply have to do well in the scrum next week. Cole did not do well.

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 9:58 pm

Griff wrote:I would not drop Adam Jones. We simply have to do well in the scrum next week. Cole did not do well.

Completely agree

Dropping Adam would be suicide, Cole was awful off the bench

Conceding a penalty against the head on the last scrum of the match with a minute to go is absolutely criminal, as was the against the head loss on the scrum before in the shadow of the Aus posts with a chance to close out the game

I expect Adam to do a number on the Aus front row next week - we saw signs of it today, and if the game gets tighter and we see more scrums I think it will be a real points machine for the Lions with Halfpenny on the pitch.

by fa0019 Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:00 pm

Looseheaded wrote:those arguing for or against Croft should have a look at the first Aus try, he came shooting out the line from nowhere for some reason or another which led to the outnumbered defence

Loose head you are deranged.

The biggest cause of the try and AUS being close all day was Phillips... One of the worst scrum half performances since bergamasco.

There was no line as Genia had already broken, croft was blindsided by Phillips so couldn't tackle Genia and could only try and knock out the supporting runner. Phillips needed to tackle him but he waited and waited and showed as much gusto as a sloth. Croft shouldn't have ran in so quickly but he didn't cause the space.

North came off his marker.... He should have trusted halfpenny to tackle Genia... He gave Folau an easy run in. A winger should never leave the outside channel.. Regardless of whether or not the player can break the fullbacks tackle.

In terms of the try blame its probably in this order

1. Phillips not taking Genia when he could have.
2. North coming off his wing to tackle Genia when halfpenny had him covered, actually tackled him and left Folau in space, he was neck and neck with folau before he tried to incorrectly intervene with halfpenny... he would have stopped the try by tackling folau as soon as he picked up the ball, unless north got their first....even then Davies was double the distance from Folau at the end but still managed to burst past norths canter as Folau picked up.
3. Croft could have come in slower... No way he could have tackled Genia though without smashing into Phillips.

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:06 pm

[quote="fa0019"]

Looseheaded wrote:

North came off his marker.... He should have trusted halfpenny to tackle Genia... He gave Folau an easy run in. A winger should never leave the outside channel.. Regardless of whether or not the player can break the fullbacks tackle.

North had to cover 3 players, he came in on Genia when he was covering the passing lane - it was a very good 5m kick from Genia that set up the try. Unfortunate that is the class you get from Genia - he had options inside but he always chooses the right option and executes perfectly. That set up was more impressive than Folau's second try even if it didn't involve busting tackles and sidesteping flyhalves.

by glamorganalun Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:07 pm

Why is everybody calling for Roberts over Davies, Roberts has been average at best, Davies has been the Lions best centre by some margin and idea of Manu replacing Davies is stupid, Manu has hardly played and he plays 13, Davies plays 12/13 for his club. The back line was not great going forward but that was due to them being too deep, the centres did not miss any tackles Davies made some good kicks, turn overs and made ground and linked with BOD just short of the line to win a penalty (should have been yellow). I think Robert and Davies is a better combination but means dropping BOD.

by wales606 Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:10 pm

glamorganalun wrote:Why is everybody calling for Roberts over Davies, Roberts has been average at best, Davies has been the Lions best centre by some margin and idea of Manu replacing Davies is stupid, Manu has hardly played and he plays 13, Davies plays 12/13 for his club. The back line was not great going forward but that was due to them being too deep, the centres did not miss any tackles Davies made some good kicks, turn overs and made ground and linked with BOD just short of the line to win a penalty (should have been yellow). I think Robert and Davies is a better combination but means dropping BOD.

I think it is because

Roberts is a defensive leader, probably the best defensive 12 around, and will stop the ball getting wide
JD2 is not the type of 12 Gatland wants in his gameplan - he is the perfect 13, but he looked a bit rusty at 12 today
Roberts is a big game player, loves the Lions and playing with BOD

It's a close call, and JD2 has done more to deserve his place - but sometimes it is about who suits the gameplan best.

I don't think Roberts will be fit anyway, so I hope JD2 starts over Tuilangi.

by glamorganalun Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:23 pm

wales606 wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:Why is everybody calling for Roberts over Davies, Roberts has been average at best, Davies has been the Lions best centre by some margin and idea of Manu replacing Davies is stupid, Manu has hardly played and he plays 13, Davies plays 12/13 for his club. The back line was not great going forward but that was due to them being too deep, the centres did not miss any tackles Davies made some good kicks, turn overs and made ground and linked with BOD just short of the line to win a penalty (should have been yellow). I think Robert and Davies is a better combination but means dropping BOD.

I think it is because

Roberts is a defensive leader, probably the best defensive 12 around, and will stop the ball getting wide
JD2 is not the type of 12 Gatland wants in his gameplan - he is the perfect 13, but he looked a bit rusty at 12 today
Roberts is a big game player, loves the Lions and playing with BOD

It's a close call, and JD2 has done more to deserve his place - but sometimes it is about who suits the gameplan best.

I don't think Roberts will be fit anyway, so I hope JD2 starts over Tuilangi.

I agree with some of your points but defence in the centres was not a problem, so far Roberts has done very little and if he does make space for BOD is he still quick enough to take advantage, 4 years ago yes.

by tatterd Sat Jun 22, 2013 10:56 pm

fa0019 wrote:

I'd go with

Corbisiero, youngs, cole, jones, O'Connell, croft, warburton, Heaslip, youngs, sexton, north, tuilagi, odriscoll, Bowe, halfpenny.

Vunipola, Hubbard, jones, gray, o'brien, Phillips, Farrell, Davies.

You sound like you know about rugby then you come out with this tripe. Must have been me imagining it when cole came on and the lions scrum went backwards then..........

by glamorganalun Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:18 pm

tatterd wrote:
fa0019 wrote:

I'd go with

Corbisiero, youngs, cole, jones, O'Connell, croft, warburton, Heaslip, youngs, sexton, north, tuilagi, odriscoll, Bowe, halfpenny.

Vunipola, Hubbard, jones, gray, o'brien, Phillips, Farrell, Davies.

You sound like you know about rugby then you come out with this tripe. Must have been me imagining it when cole came on and the lions scrum went backwards then..........

Looks like he is trying to shoe in as many English based players in as possible, stuff the result, what happens if Roberts is fit?

by Newsilure Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:23 pm

Roberts was starting to run some good lines before he got injured and looking at how today's game went it now looks like his crash ball was the game plan as I couldn't see any new plan on display today. There were some good tactics like making sure of the ball by throwing short at the line out and bringing the wings infield whenever possible but I couldn't really see what the overall attack plan from Howley was ... can anyone enlighten me?

by glamorganalun Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:33 pm

What is wrong with the following team it looks stronger if all fit and a much better bench:

Grant, Hibbard, Jones, jones, O'Connell, Warburton, Tipuric, Heaslip, Phillips, sexton, north, Roberts, odriscoll, Bowe, halfpenny.

Corbs, Youngs, Cole, gray, o'brien,Murry, Farrell, Davies.

by BigWilly Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:37 pm

glamorganalun wrote:
tatterd wrote:
fa0019 wrote:

I'd go with

Corbisiero, youngs, cole, jones, O'Connell, croft, warburton, Heaslip, youngs, sexton, north, tuilagi, odriscoll, Bowe, halfpenny.

Vunipola, Hubbard, jones, gray, o'brien, Phillips, Farrell, Davies.

You sound like you know about rugby then you come out with this tripe. Must have been me imagining it when cole came on and the lions scrum went backwards then..........

Looks like he is trying to shoe in as many English based players in as possible, stuff the result, what happens if Roberts is fit?

by yappysnap Sat Jun 22, 2013 11:52 pm

Ben Youngs to start as we need his pace and vision.

SOB for Croft for extra power. Maybe Grey on the bench.

Worried about how off form Cole's looking too.

by Irishhoneymonster Sun Jun 23, 2013 2:34 am

Anyone who thinks that was a good or solid performance from the Lions is deluded in my view. We should have taken that game by the scruff of the neck with 20 or 30 mins to go and run away with it. The fact is we didn't do that and in the end could or should have lost it. The only thing that saved us was poor goal kicking from Oz.

I think Youngs has to come in for Philips. I like Philips but today he was simply not good enough. His incessant running round the fringes when it clearly wasn't working was unforgiveable, not to mention his mindless box kicking.

I also think it is a no brainer that Bowe will walk straight back into the side if he is passed fit, and out of all the changes I list here I think it is the one that we can be sure that Gatland will actually make. And for all those reading this thinking Bowe shouldn't just walk back in, think of a scenario in which North didn't play today and the person who played in his place still scored a try and the Lions still won. Would you honestly be thinking that North shouldn't walk back into the Squad at that persons expense if they played at say the same level as Cuthbert did today? And especially considering the fact that we actually didn't play very well all in all? Bowe and North are a class above the rest in my view and for that reason will both be playing if fit. Also they are the form wingers on tour so far!

Other changes I would make would be O'Brien in for Croft and Roberts/Tuilagi in for JD2. I think Davies played quite well to be fair but it's just that the balance of the midfield is better with a crash merchant there giving Aus something to think about. I also think it is very likely Gatland will make a change at IC if he has the players available. As for my reasoning for O'Brien coming in, I don't honestly think the back row were that bad but they didn't really seem very balanced and that meant that nobody in that unit was able to shine I feel, as in just doing what they do best. I think a better balance would come from a change at blindside. Also, I wouldn't really care that much if it was Lydiate who came in but to be fair, O'Brien has put his hand up more throughout the tour so far. I'd still keep Lydiate on the bench though as he covers 6 if O'Brien is injured and O'Brien covers the other 2 positions (8 at a stretch perhaps at this level) if either Heaslip or Warburton is injured.

I had other things to say about the bench options but have been drinking too much and can't remember now. One thing I would say though is this, with a Lions squad we surely have the players to be able to pretty much empty the bench so that we can make an impact and have more fresh players on the pitch towards the end. Now don't get me wrong I understand that there is always continuity and fluidity to think about and you don't want to disrupt the team too much. But having said that, during the match today I was in some ways glad that Gatland didn't bring on the likes of Maitland because I haven't been convinced by him this tour and would have been worried if he had come on in such a tight game. Whereas if it had been Tuilagi or Bowe coming off the bench then my feeling would have been bring them on and feck continuity! My point is that with a squad as strong as this I feel that I really shouldn't be worried or feeling tentative during a match about a particular sub coming on. Kind of made me realise the bench could/should be stronger than it is. Anyway is just a thought that Gatland shouldn't have players on the bench that he is uncomfortable bringing on because of the depth that is in the squad.

Anyway I am talking rubbish now apologies, all I would reiterate is that we were super lucky today and I think we need some changes to up things next week or we could well be in trouble. Make no mistake, it was a pretty average performance from us today.

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