50% delighted 50% terrified

by R!skysports Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:00

The win was great and accounts for my delight. Great to start the test off with a win and we all would have taken that at the start, so why I am terrified?

We won, but really shouldn't have and the fact that we won will mean gatland will not change much.

We lost the breakdown (which was part down to not understanding the ref and part balance at the back row )
Our scrum half was schooled (as most of us impartial folk predicted) (and don't get me started on the lack of effort in running back after being sidestepped twice by genier)
Apart from 2 bits of good play (brilliance from north and a good line in from cuthburt) we did not look dangerous at all
Bish bosh rugby did not work very well
The ozzies missed 18 easy points on kicks - a half decent kicker and we were toast
The ozzies had a 7 playing centre due to injuries

Now I am delighted we got this win, but if we do not make some real changes and learn from the mistakes we are unluckily to get so fortunate again

Please do not let this win paper over the cracks

Go lions

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:03

Riskysports wrote:The win was great and accounts for my delight. Great to start the test off with a win and we all would have taken that at the start, so why I am terrified?

We won, but really shouldn't have and the fact that we won will mean gatland will not change much.

We lost the breakdown (which was part down to not understanding the ref and part balance at the back row )
Our scrum half was schooled (as most of us impartial folk predicted) (and don't get me started on the lack of effort in running back after being sidestepped twice by genier)
Apart from 2 bits of good play (brilliance from north and a good line in from cuthburt) we did not look dangerous at all
Bish bosh rugby did not work very well
The ozzies missed 18 easy points on kicks - a half decent kicker and we were toast
The ozzies had a 7 playing centre due to injuries

Now I am delighted we got this win, but if we do not make some real changes and learn from the mistakes we are unluckily to get so fortunate again

Please do not let this win paper over the cracks

Go lions

This is pretty much how I feel

by HammerofThunor Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:07

Wasn't it 14 points and none 'easy'. A few you'd expect and a couple of hard ones

by RubyGuby Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:09

We do not need to make many changes; if any. We failed to capitalise on our superior scrum at key moments and we stood off them instead of being aggressive in defence. Possibly Youngs for Phillips, SOB for Croft and Bowe in for Maitland. I would also prefer Faletau for Lydiate if we keep the same XV thumbsup

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:10

HammerofThunor wrote:Wasn't it 14 points and none 'easy'. A few you'd expect and a couple of hard ones

I thought it was 14, but apparently Barnes missed a kick too so it's maybe 17? Anyway, not all were easy (some were sitters) but none were hard. The one Beale missed (not the slip but the one before that) literally anyone should have been able to make!

by Guest Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:11

I find it a bit odd to call this bish bosh rugby. There was very little bish bosh rugby played by the Lions. There was very little rugby played at all, bish bosh or not. The ball was mainly kicked away by box kicking Phillips or up'n'under Sexton. The centres did not take it up 'bosh' style at all really.

by Higher_Ground Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:12

I don't think Mike Phillips was 'schooled'. He's a two time Lion who had a bad day today, he won't be bad again.
Look at his face when he is chasing Genia, there is clearly something wrong with him, to suggest he wasn't putting in the effort for no apparent reason isn't really on.

Don't worry about the back row balance, North had a player lifted off the ground for about 5 seconds at a ruck while he tried to get him to release the ball, but the referee just continue listening to the elevator music in his head, an along with the other penalties against us,
I don't really think it matters who would have been playing.
Today gave me far more confidence to know that we can win 3 nil, We'll get better, can Australia?

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:13

RubyGuby wrote:We do not need to make many changes; if any. We failed to capitalise on our superior scrum at key moments and we stood off them instead of being aggressive in defence. Possibly Youngs for Phillips, SOB for Croft and Bowe in for Maitland. I would also prefer Faletau for Lydiate if we keep the same XV

I hope you don't actually believe that Ruby. Our scrum was not that superior, and that was as non-ideal a backline we were facing as has ever been on an International rugby field by the end. If Beale had hit either of those kicks at the end, I can't believe everyone would be so casual about the! way we played

by RubyGuby Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:14

Well said HG thumbsup

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:15

Higher_Ground wrote:I don't think Mike Phillips was 'schooled'. He's a two time Lion who had a bad day today, he won't be bad again.
Look at his face when he is chasing Genia, there is clearly something wrong with him, to suggest he wasn't putting in the effort for no apparent reason isn't really on.

Don't worry about the back row balance, North had a player lifted off the ground for about 5 seconds at a ruck while he tried to get him to release the ball, but the referee just continue listening to the elevator music in his head, an along with the other penalties against us,
I don't really think it matters who would have been playing.
Today gave me far more confidence to know that we can win 3 nil, We'll get better, can Australia?

Yes, they'll get much much better, how can you think that they won't given the things that happened to them in that game?

I think we'll win the series but I also think that some people are being insanely optimistic and doing what I've warning against recently which is assuming that because we got the result today that mistakes weren't made and changes don't need to be made!

by RubyGuby Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:20

I can assure you, there wont be many changes (2 at best) and the Lions will win thumbsup

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:24

RubyGuby wrote:I can assure you, there wont be many changes (2 at best) and the Lions will win

I hope the Lions do win and I am wrong. Not sure how you can assure it unless you're involved in a match-fixing ring with the Aussie goal-kickers though! (just joking)

by RubyGuby Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:28

Rest Assured CJ - The Lions now know what they are up against and we will dominate in the front 5 next week and have greater control of the ball around the park. thumbsup

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:36

RubyGuby wrote:Rest Assured CJ - The Lions now know what they are up against and we will dominate in the front 5 next week and have greater control of the ball around the park.

We don't know what we are up against! In any way! I can understand optimism but the Aussies clealry didn't get to play their gameplan at all, they lost the key man to it within 1 minute and ended the match with Hooper in the centres, and could use their superior pilferers because of the ref. If you think that was them playing their gameplan and not just absolute improvisation form the word go, mostly from Genia, then I just can't understand you.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:37

Suffice to say I am not assured...

by RubyGuby Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:43

Rest Assured - The game plan is now far clearer and we will be far tighter next week. We can speak after the game - Lions by between 7-10 points thumbsup

by The Saint Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:49

Griff wrote:I find it a bit odd to call this bish bosh rugby. There was very little bish bosh rugby played by the Lions. There was very little rugby played at all, bish bosh or not. The ball was mainly kicked away by box kicking Phillips or up'n'under Sexton. The centres did not take it up 'bosh' style at all really.

Just more myth's from bitter Scot's, in particular the author who can't stand losing to Wales so slags off their players at any opportunity.

by RubyGuby Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 20:51

Easy now Roger, your halo's slipping thumbsup

by Higher_Ground Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:02

Chequered, just because a few of us are optimistic, doesn't mean Gatland isn't still a top coach. They're a professional management team, if they think changes need to be made, they'll make them.
The fact that we couldn't expose a 7 in the backline reflects on how poorly we played at times, and like I said, we will get considerably better.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:03

I hope you're right, but the Aussies will certainly change and improve too! We'll see what happens anyway

by Higher_Ground Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:05

Also, they had a few disruptive injuries, but 'the things that happened to them' involved them not having good enough front line goal kickers. How are they going to improve that in a week?

by Higher_Ground Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:08

Credit to their scrum though, although I got the impression that they fought for their lives to get parity, a few tweaks and I think we will get the upper hand.
Youngs threw so well today, we need to be braver, and get some ball off the top if Cuthbert and North are going to realise their true potential.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:14

Higher_Ground wrote:Also, they had a few disruptive injuries, but 'the things that happened to them' involved them not having good enough front line goal kickers. How are they going to improve that in a week?

They lost their first choice goal kicker and the top kicker in Australia in S15 in the first minute. O'Connor was obviously struggling confidence-wise having lost his playmaker, who was designed to take pressure off his kicking and management, at the start of the game and did not kick as well as everyone knows he has done in the past at this level. After it was clear that his mind was not in the right place with him focusing so much on the pressure of playing the Lions in a key position he hasn't played much Internationally before, the next best kicker, Barnes, was also injured before he could take over the duties. Beale probably wasn't expecting to have to kick and I doubt he's been practising that much, as he doesn't goal-kick for Australia or the Rebels usually and has been out injured and in rehab. Next week, they will have LLF back, apparently. they will pick another kicker. Beale will practice. JOC will kick better, probably. It's not like these guys don't know how to kick. They don't have a Halfpenny but they won't miss that many points again

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:14

Higher_Ground wrote:Credit to their scrum though, although I got the impression that they fought for their lives to get parity, a few tweaks and I think we will get the upper hand.
Youngs threw so well today, we need to be braver, and get some ball off the top if Cuthbert and North are going to realise their true potential.

We also need to attack their lineout more

by Mr Fishpaste Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:22

Philips was schooled by Genia, but in fairness, any scrum-half that plays against Genia gets schooled!

by MarcusHalberstram Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:32

Ref ruined this as a contest - and yet the Lions still won. Not sure why all the pessimism from Lions supporters. Players coming back for Lions, men down for Oz, a different ref - Lions will thump them next week!

by glamorganalun Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:35

The one long throw from Youngs was taken by POC chest high, not great ball/ The last 20 mins when AWJ went off, the Lions had hardly any ball, losing the ball in the scrum 5 m out almost cost the game, Is Parling strong enough scrum time maybe Gray may be a better sub? I suspect Rowntree has a big say in the forwards selection that cost the Lions the first test in SA i.e.,not picking A Jones at tighthead. I prefer Gray over Parling but all the second rows have been good no thanks to Best throwing.

by ChequeredJersey Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:36

MarcusHalberstram wrote:Ref ruined this as a contest - and yet the Lions still won. Not sure why all the pessimism from Lions supporters. Players coming back for Lions, men down for Oz, a different ref - Lions will thump them next week!

The ref ruined the contest for both sides and was, IMO, neither biased nor inconsistent...

by wales606 Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 21:55

On the positive side

The Lions set piece will be strong next week - the starting 8 did get dominance at the scrum (it was a pity there weren't many in the first half, and we gave them a free kick with an early engage) - the scrum will be stronger next week for the practise - and hopefully Adam and Corbs will be given more than 50 minutes after Cole and Vunipola's nightmare at the scrum.

The lineout was very good on our own throw - now we have had a chance to see what the Aus lineout is doing and hopefully will challenge the Aus throw next week, and throw to the back more on our throw

The breakdown will be dependant on the ref - While I dislike Joubert, he will have less of a SH view than Pollock being a South African referee and a lot more used to reffing the NH sides

Hopefully there will be a few changes, and the nerves will be a bit more settled next week.

The analysts have 80 minutes of rugby to poor over - we can now look at some of the Aus play, and can cut out the defensive errors we made today.

by R!skysports Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 22:03

The Saint wrote:
Griff wrote:I find it a bit odd to call this bish bosh rugby. There was very little bish bosh rugby played by the Lions. There was very little rugby played at all, bish bosh or not. The ball was mainly kicked away by box kicking Phillips or up'n'under Sexton. The centres did not take it up 'bosh' style at all really.

Just more myth's from bitter Scot's, in particular the author who can't stand losing to Wales so slags off their players at any opportunity.

Stop bringing this back to nationality whenever we have an opinion. It is really quite sad

by Hood83 Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 22:12

Ok it's a little worrying - but was there anything there we didn't already know. Our forwards vs their backs (which I actually thought was exaggerated) basically. For a good part of the first half our forwards were pretty basic in their tactics - drive it up the middle. But the Aussies couldn't stop us without some officious refereeing. Then their backs cut loose and we were toast.

If we get a half competent ref or learn to play them better we might find we step up another gear as much as Australia. They are also, sadly, getting crocked left right and centre.

by Guest Sat 22 Jun 2013 - 22:30

I actually thought the Lions played pretty poorly overall, especially in the 2nd half. Therefore, there's every possibility that we'll be better next week. So too for Aus, but they'll be missing a few front line players and will have to bring in maybe some inexperienced (or at least not first choice) players. And if we do play better, especially in the forwards, then Aus will not have as much ball as today so I'm hoping that will allow us to win, perhaps even with a bit of a bigger margin than today. Here's hoping.

by R!skysports Sun 23 Jun 2013 - 22:16

With poc injury I am now 60% terrified

by nganboy Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 2:54

I would have thought that with Aus finally getting a game under their belt that they have more upside than the Lions who have played a few games together. Aus have injuries as well as the Lions.

Don't understand why Wales606 thinks a South African referee will ahve less of a SH view than a NZ referee - something to do with longtitude and time zones may be??

by flyhalffactory Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 4:17

Griff wrote:I find it a bit odd to call this bish bosh rugby. There was very little bish bosh rugby played by the Lions. There was very little rugby played at all, bish bosh or not. The ball was mainly kicked away by box kicking Phillips or up'n'under Sexton. The centres did not take it up 'bosh' style at all really.

Totally agree Griff

If the OP aimed that bish bosh at the centres then he must have been watching a different game, Davies had quite a few subtle moves as did BOD. Lets be honest the forwards generally had a mare and Phillips whilst not having his finest game was not given much of a platform by the forwards, hence was always on the back-foot in the game and Davies rarely had any decent ball. However he had an excellent defensive game and was always aware what was going on around him.

18 points........ sorry I am almost certain it was 14 points

I said before the match that the back-row had no balance with Heaslip and Croft at 8/6, and we were most certainly poor at the breakdown I cant remember us winning any against the head.

Vunipola and Cole had mares, I thought the two wingers had excellent games and it would be mad to put Bowe in instead of Cuthbert.

Lydiate or SOB at 6 the other on the bench (especially if he has a good game on Tuesday), Croft out of the 23

We cannot play as badly again and expect to win this series

by flyhalffactory Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 4:24

The Saint wrote:
Griff wrote:I find it a bit odd to call this bish bosh rugby. There was very little bish bosh rugby played by the Lions. There was very little rugby played at all, bish bosh or not. The ball was mainly kicked away by box kicking Phillips or up'n'under Sexton. The centres did not take it up 'bosh' style at all really.

Just more myth's from bitter Scot's, in particular the author who can't stand losing to Wales so slags off their players at any opportunity.

What a ridiculous statement to make, the mods really need to look at your constant inflammatory offensive remarks.

by **George Carlin** Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 6:43

No feeding the Saint and his grammatically questionable rants, lads - let the mods do their job. Speaking personally, it might be hard to believe but I can go for whole days without even thinking about Wales.

Back on point, I think that the second test selection will be the one on which Gatland will demonstrate his coaching credentials. Surely he cannot ignore the fact that aspects of our game simply did not function well and an automatic substitution policy (if indeed one is in place) can be an absolute killer. I don't think it was that our replacement front row was poor so much as the Wallabies were very good and really up for a scrap.

He must also know that we can kick almost all of our goals and still not be out of sight with this counterattacking Wallaby team which will be all the more potent of LLF makes it, which is what it's looking like. Does he really believe that Lydiate's skills are better suited to pulling a game out of the fire than SOB or Tips? It's not a question of whether Lydiate is good at what he brings - of course he is - but what we will need late on in the game.

The most interesting thing by far for me is the game today. There are genuinely places to play for in the test 23 for some players - Grant, Evans, Gray, SOB, Faletau (I don't believe that Heaslip is completely safe) and Tuilagi are the obvious ones. If people really do have a stormer, will Gatland be true to his word that the game today matters and people holding up their hand will be rewarded?

I have a feeling that Grant, SOB and Zebo will have strong games today. Sadly, I find myself agreeing with Ms Jezzabel Guscott on BBC.co.uk that at present, the test backline will be 11. North 14. Cuthbert 15. Halfpenny; 21. Youngs 22. Farrell 23. Bowe

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 6:54

George Carlin wrote:No feeding the Saint and his grammatically questionable rants, lads - let the mods do their job. Speaking personally, it might be hard to believe but I can go for whole days without even thinking about Wales.

Back on point, I think that the second test selection will be the one on which Gatland will demonstrate his coaching credentials. Surely he cannot ignore the fact that aspects of our game simply did not function well and an automatic substitution policy (if indeed one is in place) can be an absolute killer. I don't think it was that our replacement front row was poor so much as the Wallabies were very good and really up for a scrap.

He must also know that we can kick almost all of our goals and still not be out of sight with this counterattacking Wallaby team which will be all the more potent of LLF makes it, which is what it's looking like. Does he really believe that Lydiate's skills are better suited to pulling a game out of the fire than SOB or Tips? It's not a question of whether Lydiate is good at what he brings - of course he is - but what we will need late on in the game.

The most interesting thing by far for me is the game today. There are genuinely places to play for in the test 23 for some players - Grant, Evans, Gray, SOB, Faletau (I don't believe that Heaslip is completely safe) and Tuilagi are the obvious ones. If people really do have a stormer, will Gatland be true to his word that the game today matters and people holding up their hand will be rewarded?

I have a feeling that Grant, SOB and Zebo will have strong games today. Sadly, I find myself agreeing with Ms Jezzabel Guscott on BBC.co.uk that at present, the test backline will be 11. North 14. Cuthbert 15. Halfpenny; 21. Youngs 22. Farrell 23. Bowe

All good points GC. Lets see how today's game goes but that aside surely Phillips has to pay the price for such an inept performance?
A fit Bowe should start to.

by Glas a du Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 6:57

Welcome to our World. This is pretty much what it's been like for Welsh rugby fans since '08. It's like a drug. The success keeps you going, but sometimes you just feel dirty.

by **George Carlin** Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 6:59

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
George Carlin wrote:No feeding the Saint and his grammatically questionable rants, lads - let the mods do their job. Speaking personally, it might be hard to believe but I can go for whole days without even thinking about Wales.

Back on point, I think that the second test selection will be the one on which Gatland will demonstrate his coaching credentials. Surely he cannot ignore the fact that aspects of our game simply did not function well and an automatic substitution policy (if indeed one is in place) can be an absolute killer. I don't think it was that our replacement front row was poor so much as the Wallabies were very good and really up for a scrap.

He must also know that we can kick almost all of our goals and still not be out of sight with this counterattacking Wallaby team which will be all the more potent of LLF makes it, which is what it's looking like. Does he really believe that Lydiate's skills are better suited to pulling a game out of the fire than SOB or Tips? It's not a question of whether Lydiate is good at what he brings - of course he is - but what we will need late on in the game.

The most interesting thing by far for me is the game today. There are genuinely places to play for in the test 23 for some players - Grant, Evans, Gray, SOB, Faletau (I don't believe that Heaslip is completely safe) and Tuilagi are the obvious ones. If people really do have a stormer, will Gatland be true to his word that the game today matters and people holding up their hand will be rewarded?

I have a feeling that Grant, SOB and Zebo will have strong games today. Sadly, I find myself agreeing with Ms Jezzabel Guscott on BBC.co.uk that at present, the test backline will be 11. North 14. Cuthbert 15. Halfpenny; 21. Youngs 22. Farrell 23. Bowe

All good points GC. Lets see how today's game goes but that aside surely Phillips has to pay the price for such an inept performance?
A fit Bowe should start to.

Totally agree about Philips, Big Trev but for a number of people who post here, suggesting that a Mike Philips performance is ever anything other than stellar (even in a measured way, which is what most people try to do) or that his talents are perhaps less well suited to playing a team like the Wallabies rather than a team like South Africa is a little like writing that Mother Theresa didn't really work all that hard. So I'm leaving that one well enough alone because it just isn't worth it.

by BigTrevsbigmac Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 7:02

George Carlin wrote:
BigTrevsbigmac wrote:
George Carlin wrote:No feeding the Saint and his grammatically questionable rants, lads - let the mods do their job. Speaking personally, it might be hard to believe but I can go for whole days without even thinking about Wales.

Back on point, I think that the second test selection will be the one on which Gatland will demonstrate his coaching credentials. Surely he cannot ignore the fact that aspects of our game simply did not function well and an automatic substitution policy (if indeed one is in place) can be an absolute killer. I don't think it was that our replacement front row was poor so much as the Wallabies were very good and really up for a scrap.

He must also know that we can kick almost all of our goals and still not be out of sight with this counterattacking Wallaby team which will be all the more potent of LLF makes it, which is what it's looking like. Does he really believe that Lydiate's skills are better suited to pulling a game out of the fire than SOB or Tips? It's not a question of whether Lydiate is good at what he brings - of course he is - but what we will need late on in the game.

The most interesting thing by far for me is the game today. There are genuinely places to play for in the test 23 for some players - Grant, Evans, Gray, SOB, Faletau (I don't believe that Heaslip is completely safe) and Tuilagi are the obvious ones. If people really do have a stormer, will Gatland be true to his word that the game today matters and people holding up their hand will be rewarded?

I have a feeling that Grant, SOB and Zebo will have strong games today. Sadly, I find myself agreeing with Ms Jezzabel Guscott on BBC.co.uk that at present, the test backline will be 11. North 14. Cuthbert 15. Halfpenny; 21. Youngs 22. Farrell 23. Bowe

All good points GC. Lets see how today's game goes but that aside surely Phillips has to pay the price for such an inept performance?
A fit Bowe should start to.
Totally agree about Philips, Big Trev but for a number of people who post here, suggesting that a Mike Philips performance is ever anything other than stellar (even in a measured way, which is what most people try to do) or that his talents are perhaps less well suited to playing a team like the Wallabies rather than a team like South Africa is a little like writing that Mother Theresa didn't really work all that hard. So I'm leaving that one well enough alone because it just isn't worth it.

by Glas a du Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 7:12

Phillips' weaknesses technically as a scrum half are well known to Gatland, so whilst its annoying to purists like myself, it is by no means surprising that he gets the nod, and short of injury will continue to do so. The one thing I will say for him though is that he can lift the team in a similar way to POC. I saw him doing this in the flesh in Dublin 2012 and it is an awesome sight. That ticks the boxes for Gatland. Nobody said it would be pretty.

by R!skysports Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 10:15

Glas

That seems to be the reason (excuse?) for continuing to select him,

but how likely is that reason going to be used for anyone else.

Phillips has been poor for a while now. 6 nations he was poor except 1.5 games and he has been poor on this tour

However it seems that in Gatland's mind all he needs is one good game a year and that has justified his selection for another 12 months

I was even more concerned by his lack of effort tracking back after he let Genia pass him - anyone else did that would be dropped for the 23 in a heart beat - mistakes happen, not bothering to try is unforgivable

by debaters1 Tue 25 Jun 2013 - 11:44

I'd say that the Lions played pretty poorly and still won. The Aussies are highly unlikely to have to resuffle their back line so early and so often next week, so we will not get away with a second lacklustre performance, but we will also not be playing rugby league next week either, so the breakdown will be a contest that we should win.

Gatland might *MIGHT* change Philips for Youngs, which while comprimising our defence on paper, Philips had a poor game and having extra pace as a covering defender would be no harm at all, as Mike really didn't do as much as you'd expect of him in this regard.

With POC gone and Parling in ther eis some ballast lost so havign SOB to launch from the bench mightnt be a bad idea. The soundings from gatland see to suggest that Bowe will be coming in as a likely replacement for Cuthbert, which will sharpen up the defence anyway.

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