2nd TEST - AUS vs BRITISH & IRISH LIONS - 29th June - (KO-11:05 GMT)

by Scrumpy Sun 23 Jun 2013, 10:20 am

First topic message reminder :

2nd Test build-up thread

Can the Lions finish the job?
Will Aus bounch back (like we know they can)?
Will the Ref know the rules?

Aus have called up George Smith, Jesse Mogg and centre Ben Tapuai but still No Cooper?
(talk about shooting yourself in the foot!)

15. Halfpenny,
14. Bowe,
13. BOD,
12. Davies,
11.North,
10. Sexton,
9. Youngs;

1. Vunipola
2. Youngs,
3. Jones,
4. AWJ,
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. Warburton,
8. Heaslip

Replacements:
16 Hibbard, 17 Grant, 18 Cole, 19 Croft, 20 O'Brien, 21 Murray, 22 Farrell, 23 Cuthbert

Australia
15 Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels)
14 Israel Folau (NSW)
13 Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW)
12 Christian Leali'ifano (ACT Brumbies)
11 Joe Tomane (Brumbies)
10 James O'Connor (Melbourne Rebels)
9 Will Genia (Reds)
8 Wycliff Palu (NSW)
7 Michael Hooper (NSW)
6 Ben Mowen (ACT)
5 Kane Douglas (NSW)
4 James Horwill (Reds - Cap)
3 Ben Alexander (ACT)
2 Stephen Moore (ACT)
1 Benn Robinson (NSW)

16 Saia Fainga'a (Reds)
17 James Slipper (Reds)
18 Sekope Kepu (NSW)
19 Rob Simmons (Reds)
20 Liam Gill (Reds)
21 Nick Phipps (Rebels)
22 Rob Horne (NSW)
23 Jesse Mogg (Brumbies)

For those wanting to see it again and again and again etc.....http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=GEORGE+NORTHS+LIONS+TRY&view=detail&mid=64E92B2D2B1B4128364264E92B2D2B1B41283642&first=0&FORM=NVPFVR&qpvt=GEORGE+NORTHS+LIONS+TRY

by flyhalffactory Wed 26 Jun 2013, 7:08 pm

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:I think Gatland will stick with Phillips in the starting XV, but will (hopefully) be prepared to take him off sooner rather than later if he has another poor game.

Tuilagi and O'Driscoll in midfield. JD2 has been the best outside centre on tour, but Gatland won't drop O'Driscoll and Tuilagi looks more like Gatland's kind of 12 than JD2..

Back row could well be Lydiate, Warburton and Heaslip. I'd have Toby at number eight, but I don't see it happening.

Interesting comparison between Davies and Tualagi
Player. Date. Opponents Pos T/A Pts K / P /R MR CB DB OL TO Tack LO Pen Y/R
Davies. 15/6. Warratahs. I/C 1/3 5 0/15/16 141 3 1 1 1 5/1 0/0 0 0/0
Tualagi 25/6. Mel Rebels I/C 0/0 0 1/5/11 52 2 3 3 1 3/1 0/0 0 0/0

Key: T/A Tries / Try Assists Pts Points scored
K/P/R Kick / Pass / Run MR Metres Run with ball
CB Clean Breaks DB Defenders Beaten OL OffLoads TO TurnOvers
Tack Tackles made / missed LO LineOuts won on throw / stolen on opp throw
Pen Penalties conceded Y/R Yellow / Red cards

Now I am not the biggest fan of stats (even tho I use them daily) and the espn stats are innately flawed, but taking the most recent mid week matches and IMHO both opponents (Tahs and Reds) were kinda equal in the quality and competitiveness. It reveals interesting reading on both I/Cs relative performance

Defence
Tackles Made - Foxy makes 5 tackles compared to Mans 3, they both miss a tackle. No pens conceded.

Offense
Tries / Points - Foxy 1 Tries / 5 Points, Manu 0 Tries / 0 Point
Metres Made - Foxy 141 Manu 52 - that's almost THREE TIMES more that Davies made with ball in hand
Passes - Foxy 15 Manu 5 - that's THREE TIMES more passes that Davies made. Now interestingly if you thought that passing three times more then he must have run three times less but actually this is the opposite Davies did both three times as much as Tualagi.
Clean Breaks - Foxy 3 Manu 2
Defenders Beaten - Foxy 1 Manu 3 - (this is where espn comes undone Manu has 2 clean breaks yet beats defenders cleanly 3 times!!)
Offloads - Foxy 1 Manu 3 - not sure exactly the point in this stat but input for completeness

I think when you make a true comparison of the two overall performances (also the words of BOD, POC, SCW, Gav Hastings who said Davies performance was one of the best I/C performance they have seen in a Lions jersey) then I would think Mr G would be making the biggest selection blunder to date if he drops Jon Davies for the 2nd test.

As somebody said today "Stats Smatch"

by flyhalffactory Wed 26 Jun 2013, 7:13 pm

glamorganalun wrote:A lot of guys having a go at Phillips but some blame must go against the back row for not protecting him, he seemed to be under pressure thoughout the game hence getting caught a number of times. I thought his box kicking was poor but he is normally good at the bx kick, it it the same reason. Phillips is much stronger than the other scrum halves, I suspect he is better suited under these conditions. If we change the scrum half we should change the back row, I can't see it happenning.

Phillips has that dog about him, he will have learnt a great deal from the first test, wouldn't surprise me to see him destroying Genia on Saturday and coming out with a MOTM performance.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 26 Jun 2013, 7:23 pm

Those aren't the ESPN stats I can find...

Davies played IC against the Reds and outside against the Waratahs. Tuilagi has only played inside centre against the Force and was injured early at OC against the Reds. I would go so far as to say that not only are your facts clearly incorrect but no valid comparison can be made between the players at Inside Centre whatsoever, such is the variety in situation, opposition and own team makeup between the various matches.

by ChequeredJersey Wed 26 Jun 2013, 7:25 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:A lot of guys having a go at Phillips but some blame must go against the back row for not protecting him, he seemed to be under pressure thoughout the game hence getting caught a number of times. I thought his box kicking was poor but he is normally good at the bx kick, it it the same reason. Phillips is much stronger than the other scrum halves, I suspect he is better suited under these conditions. If we change the scrum half we should change the back row, I can't see it happenning.

Phillips has that dog about him, he will have learnt a great deal from the first test, wouldn't surprise me to see him destroying Genia on Saturday and coming out with a MOTM performance.

Whilst I think he will improve a great deal on Saturday, it would shock me to my very core if he dominated Genia, mostly because I have never seen a scrum half "destroy" Will Genia, and Phillips trying to do so would almost certainly be the worst thing he could possibly do from the team's point of view

by flyhalffactory Wed 26 Jun 2013, 7:37 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Those aren't the ESPN stats I can find...

Davies played IC against the Reds and outside against the Waratahs. Tuilagi has only played inside centre against the Force and was injured early at OC against the Reds. I would go so far as to say that not only are your facts clearly incorrect but no valid comparison can be made between the players at Inside Centre whatsoever, such is the variety in situation, opposition and own team makeup between the various matches.

Sorry mate
I meant Rebel not Reds (will adjust).

Now maybe you can re-analyse your comments]

EDIT: apologies for Rebels/Reds mistake I stated Melbourne Reds when I should have said Rebels but apart from that the data is correct (date of match etc) also for the I/C (should have been O/C) but with Roberts going off, Davies did operate at I/C for a while.

Sorry how are my stats incorrect?,

http://www.espn.co.uk/lions-tour-2013/rugby/match/164084.html
http://www.espn.co.uk/lions-tour-2013/rugby/match/164082.html

Both played recently at 13 both played a full match so where is the inaccuracies?
Why isn't there a valid comparison, both played 13, both played full match, both played with similar team mates, both played against similar level opposition...... so why isn't there a valid comparison

Or is it you just don't like the stats?

by ChequeredJersey Wed 26 Jun 2013, 7:40 pm

Fair enough, they were both at Outside centre though, which is not the same as Inside centre, and Tuilagi had the joy of playing outside Barritt, aka "Mr Creativity".

I personally would start JD2 at IC on Saturday as the only problem with the Centres last week was working together and they will have had a week to work on that and changing the pairing will just cause more problems, but I do think Tuilagi had a strong game against the rebels and the match situations are fairly different

by **LondonTiger** Wed 26 Jun 2013, 7:41 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:A lot of guys having a go at Phillips but some blame must go against the back row for not protecting him, he seemed to be under pressure thoughout the game hence getting caught a number of times. I thought his box kicking was poor but he is normally good at the bx kick, it it the same reason. Phillips is much stronger than the other scrum halves, I suspect he is better suited under these conditions. If we change the scrum half we should change the back row, I can't see it happenning.

I might be misremembering but I cannot remember feeling that Phillips was particularly missing backrow protection. He was under pressure in attack because Mowen in particular seemed to be given the job to man-mark him at rucks, which I'm not sure the backrow could avoid. I do however think that a certain amount of the problems were with Gatland's tactics not just Phillips' performance and I am sure he will play better when he starts again on Saturday. But he can't try too hard to prove that last week was an aberration. If he gets himself into a direct contest with Genia, he is likely to lose and compromise the entire team. On that basis you may not notice him being his usual hard-running self taking on defenders on his lonesome on Saturday, and that isn't him playing poorly, that will be an indicator of him playing intelligently

A big part of the problem for Phillips when running the ball, was that the Aussies almost suckered him into trying for a gap that was not really there because Mowen was lurking to mow him down. Phillips was not being scragged when picking the ball up or under any pressure at all when kicking or passing. Problem was he pretty much always picked the ball up, then looked at it to make sure he had it before then kicking or passing. So I cannot see where this attempt to "blame" the back row comes from.

He will start on Saturday as his style suits the game plan that Gats will want to play. I can live with that. Should that style fail at the weekend, then we probably need a change at 9 as instead of Phillips calling the shots it will become Sexton.

Phillips is a marmite scrum half - in large part because he is different to what we expect. Each observer will decide whether his undoubted strengths outweigh his weaknesses. (In many ways not dissimilar to Croft)

by flyhalffactory Wed 26 Jun 2013, 8:05 pm

ChequeredJersey wrote:Fair enough, they were both at Outside centre though, which is not the same as Inside centre, and Tuilagi had the joy of playing outside Barritt, aka "Mr Creativity".

I personally would start JD2 at IC on Saturday as the only problem with the Centres last week was working together and they will have had a week to work on that and changing the pairing will just cause more problems, but I do think Tuilagi had a strong game against the rebels and the match situations are fairly different

I agree he had a strong game and played very much with an awareness that I hadn't seen from him before, a very mature performance, but when you look at the opposition i.e. a lower table team with 5 key players out, then you see posters stating he must start after his performance then you have to draw some sort of comparison to justify your statement. I think like you that Davies should start because he has been the better player overall (as can be seen from the most recent stats which we must take with a pinch of salt I acknowledge)

by yappysnap Wed 26 Jun 2013, 10:38 pm

LondonTiger wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:
glamorganalun wrote:A lot of guys having a go at Phillips but some blame must go against the back row for not protecting him, he seemed to be under pressure thoughout the game hence getting caught a number of times. I thought his box kicking was poor but he is normally good at the bx kick, it it the same reason. Phillips is much stronger than the other scrum halves, I suspect he is better suited under these conditions. If we change the scrum half we should change the back row, I can't see it happenning.

I might be misremembering but I cannot remember feeling that Phillips was particularly missing backrow protection. He was under pressure in attack because Mowen in particular seemed to be given the job to man-mark him at rucks, which I'm not sure the backrow could avoid. I do however think that a certain amount of the problems were with Gatland's tactics not just Phillips' performance and I am sure he will play better when he starts again on Saturday. But he can't try too hard to prove that last week was an aberration. If he gets himself into a direct contest with Genia, he is likely to lose and compromise the entire team. On that basis you may not notice him being his usual hard-running self taking on defenders on his lonesome on Saturday, and that isn't him playing poorly, that will be an indicator of him playing intelligently

A big part of the problem for Phillips when running the ball, was that the Aussies almost suckered him into trying for a gap that was not really there because Mowen was lurking to mow him down. Phillips was not being scragged when picking the ball up or under any pressure at all when kicking or passing. Problem was he pretty much always picked the ball up, then looked at it to make sure he had it before then kicking or passing. So I cannot see where this attempt to "blame" the back row comes from.

He will start on Saturday as his style suits the game plan that Gats will want to play. I can live with that. Should that style fail at the weekend, then we probably need a change at 9 as instead of Phillips calling the shots it will become Sexton.

Phillips is a marmite scrum half - in large part because he is different to what we expect. Each observer will decide whether his undoubted strengths outweigh his weaknesses. (In many ways not dissimilar to Croft)

I agree with all of this.

My own thoughts are that like last Sat nearly everything will come down to how well Phillips plays. The pack can be expected to hold their own, the backs can cause trouble if given good ball and our kickers are on song, it's all down to Phillips linking the forwards with the backs and getting the attack flowing. If he has a good game then we should win, if he plays like last week then Gat's needs to bring Youngs on early.

by yappysnap Wed 26 Jun 2013, 10:40 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
ChequeredJersey wrote:Fair enough, they were both at Outside centre though, which is not the same as Inside centre, and Tuilagi had the joy of playing outside Barritt, aka "Mr Creativity".

I personally would start JD2 at IC on Saturday as the only problem with the Centres last week was working together and they will have had a week to work on that and changing the pairing will just cause more problems, but I do think Tuilagi had a strong game against the rebels and the match situations are fairly different

I agree he had a strong game and played very much with an awareness that I hadn't seen from him before, a very mature performance, but when you look at the opposition i.e. a lower table team with 5 key players out, then you see posters stating he must start after his performance then you have to draw some sort of comparison to justify your statement. I think like you that Davies should start because he has been the better player overall (as can be seen from the most recent stats which we must take with a pinch of salt I acknowledge)

Davies/BOD should definitely start. Manu will make the perfect no23 covering centre and wing.

by GLove39 Thu 27 Jun 2013, 3:27 am

Team named...

15. Halfpenny,
14. Bowe,
13. BOD,
12. Davies,
11.North,
10. Sexton,
9. Youngs;

1. Vunipola Shocked

2. Youngs,
3. Jones,
4. AWJ,
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. Warburton,
8. Heaslip

Replacements:
16 Hibbard, 17 Grant, 18 Cole, 19 Croft, 20 O'Brien, 21 Murray, 22 Farrell, 23 Cuthbert

So there we have it. Phillips dropped completely and Tommy wonder bones Bowe takes Cuthberts spot.

by bsando Thu 27 Jun 2013, 8:58 am

Vunipola is going to get owned!

Wallabies selections looks really good in my opinion. I am very pleased with the team.

Australia team: Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels); Israel Folau (NSW), Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW), Christian Leali'ifano (ACT Brumbies), Joe Tomane (Brumbies); James O'Connor (Melbourne Rebels), Will Genia (Reds); Benn Robinson (NSW), Stephen Moore (ACT), Ben Alexander (ACT), James Horwill (Reds - capt), Kane Douglas (NSW), Ben Mowen (ACT), Michael Hooper (NSW), Wycliff Palu (NSW).
Replacements: Saia Fainga'a (Reds), James Slipper (Reds), Sekope Kepu (NSW), Rob Simmons (Reds), Liam Gill (Reds) Nick Phipps (Rebels), Rob Horne (NSW), Jesse Mogg (Brumbies).

by pete (buachaill on eirne) Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:12 am

uh oh

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:19 am

I'm really pleased with the selections Gatland has made.

by Mad for Chelsea Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:25 am

interesting changes. IMO some good, some meh, some downright bizarre.

Vunipola: not convinced by his scrummaging at the highest level, though I'm sure Rowntree will have been working on it. Thing is, Grant hasn't always been that great in the scrum either, and with Corbs out I think Vunipola has done more than enough on tour to earn his chance.

Rest of the front row a no-brainer.

Parling: possibly brought in to run the line-out. Adds a bit of grunt in the loose too, but again this week I'm worried about the lack of go-forward ball we're going to generate (no SOB, no Gray, no Tuilagi, etc.). Would probably have prefered Gray on balance.

AWJ deserves his spot.

Lydiate in for Croft: a bit odd considering we've already lost one main line-out operator, I'm in the "Croft gets too much criticism" camp, but what Lydiate does he does tremendously well. Also Gats was clearly worried that had he kept Croft in there would be way too many Englishmen Wink

No qualms with the rest of the backrow, hope Warbs is allowed to play his game this week.

Youngs in for Philips, injury or no, is a good thing for me as it will allow quicker ball to the backs and give Sexton more to work with.

Bowe back in is a no-brainer, does everything Cuthbert does and more. Rest of the backline is OK, though I'm not yet convinced about the Davies-BOD combination, I think we could do with a bigger ball-carrier there (or get North into the middle more maybe). Both had solid games last week though and don't deserve the chop.

Bench: mostly picks itself, but two real concerns here.

Croft and SOB? I mean, what? Croft has on occasion covered (and played a bit) second row for England, but isn't a second row, so not sure how that works. Was Gatland unsure which to pick? Worried about the line-out so wants Croft there in case? Strikes me as a decision based on indecision more than anything else, Gray (and Evans) must be fuming.

Cuthbert? Did a decent enough job in the first Test with a well finished try. However, correct me if I'm wrong, but he only covers wing does he not? So what happens if one of the centres gets injured? We either put Bowe or North there, or Farrell plays centre? Neither ideal. Even more worryingly, what if Halfpenny gets injured? There's no one in the squad I don't think who can cover there. I can genuinely see Aus targeting Halfpenny with some early up-and-unders and looking to cause some damage, and why not? The biggest concern for me. Hogg or Maitland infinitely better choices...

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:38 am

I'd imagine Gray is a little peed off.

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:44 am

"Mike was fit and available," Gatland said.

So is he fit or not?
or
is it a injury to save face for being dropped?

by RubyGuby Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:48 am

Phillips is not fit but Gatland doesn't want to give the aussies that impression as he should be ok for next week. It's Gatlands media talk, it's a bit like code. If he was 100% he would have started behind a more solid back row

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:50 am

Hmm I'm not convinced RubyGuby!

Phillips was awful in the 1st test the Aussies have worked him out.

by RubyGuby Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:54 am

That's too simplistic Victor - Phillips was pounced on every time as he was targeted as a danger man for the Lions - He had no protection from the back row and little support. If Youngs receives the same treatment we'll be in trouble as he will get penalised for holding on and will get turned over easily. Thankfully Youngs will have Lydiate to do the protecting there and that is Gatlands strategy

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:57 am

He was pounced on as the Aussies were tempting him with a bit of space Phillips was always in two minds pick and go or pass, in the end he struggled to do either

by nathan Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:58 am

RubyGuby wrote:That's too simplistic Victor - Phillips was pounced on every time as he was targeted as a danger man for the Lions - He had no protection from the back row and little support. If Youngs receives the same treatment we'll be in trouble as he will get penalised for holding on and will get turned over easily. Thankfully Youngs will have Lydiate to do the protecting there and that is Gatlands strategy

That's rubbish, the back row did fine. Your making out like Phillips being slow is a one off. It isn't!

by **LondonTiger** Thu 27 Jun 2013, 9:59 am

RubyGuby wrote: Phillips was pounced on every time as he was targeted as a danger man for the Lions

Just my opinion, but Phillips was not pounced on until after he started running. Felt like they were directing him down a dark alley where he met a tall dark stranger by the name of Mowen.

by RubyGuby Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:00 am

You're entitled to your opinion Tiger

Lions 2013: Australia must stop Mike Phillips, says Will Genia
By James Peacock
BBC Sport

by Mad for Chelsea Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:02 am

that's a bit simplistic too though Guby IMHO: Phillips often struggles against Australia. Now that may be because they target him as a dangerman, but he does try to do a lot himself (not a criticism, just the way he plays), and when you're being targeted that can be difficult. Youngs has done better vs Aus in the past, let's hope he carries that through on Saturday thumbsup

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:03 am

So is Phillips injured or is he being protected from the media and faking an injury as his simply been dropped?

by **George Carlin** Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:04 am

VictorU3 wrote:So is Phillips injured or is he being protected from the media and faking an injury as his simply been dropped?

There's something in that suggestion.

Although to be fair, I would rather have Mike Philips as a scrummie in the 'Mike Philips role' rather than Conor, who is, well, a Diet Mike Philips.

by Mad for Chelsea Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:06 am

VictorU3 wrote:So is Phillips injured or is he being protected from the media and faking an injury as his simply been dropped?

I doubt he'd have been dropped from the 22 entirely (the other non-injured starters from last week have made the bench, however unbalanced it appears to be as a result...) so I assume they're worried about his injury, and don't want to risk it. Maybe a precautionary measure, backed up by the fact he didn't play well last week?

by RubyGuby Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:06 am

Nice support for the team lads - If he wasn't injured he'd be on the bench instead of the make weight

by lostinwales Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:07 am

Phillips doesnt need protection and support to get to rucks in the first place. He wasnt making it to rucks. He is also going to get hit if he doesnt pass the ball fast enough and doesnt get out of the way. The back row are not in as blockers. (thats AJ+ BOD's job Whistle

)

Look - I have seen him grab games almost single handed enough times to know he can be a superb player. He was rank awful last saturday - and if it was because of the knee then they should of taken him off earlier

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:10 am

Ruby I just want some transparency on the issue as people are saying his injured yet Gatland has said his fit?

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:16 am

LondonTiger wrote:
RubyGuby wrote: Phillips was pounced on every time as he was targeted as a danger man for the Lions

Just my opinion, but Phillips was not pounced on until after he started running. Felt like they were directing him down a dark alley where he met a tall dark stranger by the name of Mowen.

Spot on. It's easy to say with hindsight, but Phillips could have been wiser to that and just concentrated on getting the ball away - if Mowen was focussing on him, he couldn't get into midfield as quickly.

Genia creating Folau's first try was the worst thing that could have happened. Remember the first Test in '97, when Matt Dawson scored and all of a sudden van der Westhuizen was trying to go himself every time?

by RubyGuby Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:18 am

Victor - Do you think Gatland wants the aussies knowing he's carrying a knock - He's had the problem all tour but it's been a niggle up until now. He should have come off earlier in the 1st test as it was clearly hampering him when he injured it again in the first half

by RubyGuby Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:23 am

When Phillips comes up against a tall dark stranger for Wales he has the likes of Falatau and Lydiate right on his heels to recycle quick ball - In doing this Phillips usually sucks in about three defenders (like he did last saturday) Unfortunately he had little support to capitalise on this and thst lack of support cost us dearly - It's just too easy to scapegoat the fella in this manner - Youngs will now have protection with Lydiate so we should get quicker ball, if indeed that is the plan

by Luckless Pedestrian Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:27 am

So if the Lions get quick ball on Saturday, you won't credit Ben Youngs for it?

by The Saint Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:29 am

Mad for Chelsea wrote:that's a bit simplistic too though Guby IMHO: Phillips often struggles against Australia. Now that may be because they target him as a dangerman, but he does try to do a lot himself (not a criticism, just the way he plays), and when you're being targeted that can be difficult. Youngs has done better vs Aus in the past, let's hope he carries that through on Saturday

No he doesn't. He doesn't struggle against anyone. He had one poor game on Saturday and people have been obsessed ever since, even when he is no longer in the 23.

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:31 am

Come on Ruby stop having a dig at the rest of the Lions, Phillips knew his mates weren't there to rescue him.

Simple fact is that Phillips had a shocker last week and has been dropped.

by RubyGuby Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:33 am

I take it you missed the quick ball for Cuthberts try - Phillips has to play to a game plan as well - Everyone criticised Warburton for not competing at the breakdown until he explained why. Phillip's role is dependent on others supporting him - He did not receive that and suffered accordingly and is being scapegoated a lot. On one kick off he recieved the ball; was thrown around like a rag doll by 3 forwards, yet held on and made the ball available only for Tom Youngs and Corbisiero to then pick it up in our 22 and concede a penalty in front of the posts - What do we get? everyone blaming Phillips

by The Saint Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:38 am

VictorU3 wrote:Come on Ruby stop having a dig at the rest of the Lions, Phillips knew his mates weren't there to rescue him.

Simple fact is that Phillips had a shocker last week and has been dropped.

It looks like it is you who is having a dig against the Lions, and you don't know for a fact whether or not he is injured. You still talk the same rubbish in your new incarnation.

by Thomond Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:43 am

Phillips did two good things and the Lions scored 7 points (Halfpenny's missed penalty the other). His defence was decent but his kicking was horrible and his service was worse then usual, he was probably carrying a knock but in that case why start him? The ball he got from the pack was usually solid enough, he needed to do more and didn't. He'll get another chance.

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:43 am

Saint

Gatland said he is fit.

by Pete C (Kiwireddevil) Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:45 am

The Saint wrote:
VictorU3 wrote:Come on Ruby stop having a dig at the rest of the Lions, Phillips knew his mates weren't there to rescue him.

Simple fact is that Phillips had a shocker last week and has been dropped.

It looks like it is you who is having a dig against the Lions, and you don't know for a fact whether or not he is injured. You still talk the same rubbish in your new incarnation.

Give it a rest the pair of you.

Saint, for someone who joined last month you know an awful lot about posters in the past who were banned for the good of the site, I suggest you put the hypocrisy away.

by The Saint Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:46 am

Pete - Just taking in what I've read on other Welsh rugby posts, ones were Victor always picks fights with Risca Rev.

by lostinwales Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:49 am

RubyGuby wrote:I take it you missed the quick ball for Cuthberts try - Phillips has to play to a game plan as well - Everyone criticised Warburton for not competing at the breakdown until he explained why. Phillip's role is dependent on others supporting him - He did not receive that and suffered accordingly and is being scapegoated a lot. On one kick off he recieved the ball; was thrown around like a rag doll by 3 forwards, yet held on and made the ball available only for Tom Youngs and Corbisiero to then pick it up in our 22 and concede a penalty in front of the posts - What do we get? everyone blaming Phillips

So not everything Phillips did was bad and there were times when he could have done with someone to pick up the pieces (Where was Warburton then? - there is a lot of 'its the back row's fault' why not be more specific). Performances, like most things in life are very seldom all bad or all good. But there were plenty of times when he took the wrong option, wasnt there when he should damn well have been, or was just too slow over making any decision at all.

Scrum half is such a crucial decision making position because they are involved all the time, most of the time Phillips wasnt doing his job to a high enough standard. Some of the issues might have been hidden if someone else had been taking more responsibility at rucks and mauls when he wasnt there, but it didnt happen.

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:49 am

To be honest I'm a little confused Phillips had a shocker in the 1st test and doesn't make the bench for the 2nd test, Gatland has said his fit yet fans are saying his injured and was carrying a knock in the 1st test, but if he was why leave him on the field?

Is he fit or not?

I guess will have to wait and see for the 3rd test team sheet.

I just hope Ben Youngs isn't made a scapegoat if his forwards don't help him out or if AUS step up to the plate.

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:52 am

The Saint wrote:Pete - Just taking in what I've read on other Welsh rugby posts, ones were Victor always picks fights with Risca Rev.

I have never picked a fight with said poster.

Can we please stay on the subject being discussed.

by beshocked Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:53 am

Glad to see Vunipola start because I think it would be very unfair if yet another player leapfrogs him. He is getting a lot of flack for his scrummaging but it's not as if he the only player who has struggled in this aspect. Of the props he offers the most outside scrummaging in my opinion. Not just his eyecatching carries but his workrate and tackling is strong.

It will do wonders for his confidence to actually be given the starting spot. I personally think he'll deliver. In addition he has scrummaged well in tandem with Adam Jones no?

If he can go toe to toe with Carl Hayman with Stevens as his TH partner I don't see why he can't do better against the Aussies scrummagers with A.Jones as his TH partner.

by The Saint Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:54 am

Ben Youngs won't become the next scapegoat, he isn't Welsh enough for that. I'm not denying Phillips was poor last weekend, I wanted him off a lot sooner. I don't see why fans need to make up things like "he gets outplayed by Australia 365 days a year" out of their shear disgust for him. I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos.

by Scrumpy Thu 27 Jun 2013, 10:55 am

'I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos. '

Unbelievable, This has nothing to do with Phillips being Welsh!

HIS A LION.

by beshocked Thu 27 Jun 2013, 11:05 am

The Welshman unlucky to miss out is Faletau.

As Gatland has picked his favourites of Lydiate and Warburton I am surprised he didn't go for the Welsh no 8. I would have had him partnering them.

The backrow IMO should either be basically all Welsh or no Welsh.

Ideal backrow would have been Brown,SOB,Heaslip with Robshaw on the bench but that can't happen now!

I don't dislike Phillips because he is Welsh. I dislike him because he's not a scrum half in my opinion. He's basically an extra flanker. I want my scrum half to be able to give service to the backs quickly and effectively. Youngs when on form is much more effective than Phillips in my opinion.

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