2nd TEST - AUS vs BRITISH & IRISH LIONS - 29th June - (KO-11:05 GMT)

First topic message reminder :

2nd Test build-up thread
 
Can the Lions finish the job?
Will Aus bounch back (like we know they can)?
Will the Ref know the rules?
 
Aus have called up George Smith, Jesse Mogg and centre Ben Tapuai but still No Cooper?
(talk about shooting yourself in the foot!)
 
15. Halfpenny,
14. Bowe,
13. BOD,
12. Davies,
11.North,
10. Sexton,
9. Youngs;

1. Vunipola
2. Youngs,
3. Jones,
4. AWJ,
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. Warburton,
8. Heaslip

Replacements:
16 Hibbard, 17 Grant, 18 Cole, 19 Croft, 20 O'Brien, 21 Murray, 22 Farrell, 23 Cuthbert


Australia
15 Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels)
14 Israel Folau (NSW)
13 Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW)
12 Christian Leali'ifano (ACT Brumbies)
11 Joe Tomane (Brumbies)
10 James O'Connor (Melbourne Rebels)
9 Will Genia (Reds)
8 Wycliff Palu (NSW)
7 Michael Hooper (NSW)
6 Ben Mowen (ACT)
5 Kane Douglas (NSW)
4 James Horwill (Reds - Cap)
3 Ben Alexander (ACT)
2 Stephen Moore (ACT)
1 Benn Robinson (NSW)

16 Saia Fainga'a (Reds)
17 James Slipper (Reds)
18 Sekope Kepu (NSW)
19 Rob Simmons (Reds)
20 Liam Gill (Reds)
21 Nick Phipps (Rebels)
22 Rob Horne (NSW)
23 Jesse Mogg (Brumbies)

 
For those wanting to see it again and again and again etc.....http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=GEORGE+NORTHS+LIONS+TRY&view=detail&mid=64E92B2D2B1B4128364264E92B2D2B1B41283642&first=0&FORM=NVPFVR&qpvt=GEORGE+NORTHS+LIONS+TRY

Faletau and Tips both deserved at least two Lions caps imo, both have shown good form on tour at least SOB will get on this week.

The Saint wrote:Ben Youngs won't become the next scapegoat, he isn't Welsh enough for that. I'm not denying Phillips was poor last weekend, I wanted him off a lot sooner. I don't see why fans need to make up things like "he gets outplayed by Australia 365 days a year" out of their shear disgust for him. I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos.

Ridiculous. Why does criticising a poor performance equal hating a player?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

The Saint wrote:Ben Youngs won't become the next scapegoat, he isn't Welsh enough for that. I'm not denying Phillips was poor last weekend, I wanted him off a lot sooner. I don't see why fans need to make up things like "he gets outplayed by Australia 365 days a year" out of their shear disgust for him. I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos.

Ridiculous. When did criticising a poor performance equal hating a player?

Well when it's been going on for months and it still continues after he is not included in the 23 then it becomes quite obvious.

VictorU3 wrote:'I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos. '
 
Unbelievable, This has nothing to do with Phillips being Welsh!

HIS A LION.

Sure...
It's quite ironic that you asked someone else to stop having a dig at the Lions when all you have done is have a dig at a Lions player.

The Saint wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

The Saint wrote:Ben Youngs won't become the next scapegoat, he isn't Welsh enough for that. I'm not denying Phillips was poor last weekend, I wanted him off a lot sooner. I don't see why fans need to make up things like "he gets outplayed by Australia 365 days a year" out of their shear disgust for him. I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos.

Ridiculous. When did criticising a poor performance equal hating a player?

Well when it's been going on for months and it still continues after he is not included in the 23 then it becomes quite obvious.

Still ridiculous. Phillips didn't play well. saying that doesn't mean I hate him.

Its a talking point as on his day Phillips is a handful for anyone yet Aus have always taken him out of the game, Gatland knows this more than anyone so has he lost patience with him or is he injured?
 
The only thing I hate about Phillips is that he was with Duffy, plus his good looks. (so I'm told, not that I would know:erm:)

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

The Saint wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

The Saint wrote:Ben Youngs won't become the next scapegoat, he isn't Welsh enough for that. I'm not denying Phillips was poor last weekend, I wanted him off a lot sooner. I don't see why fans need to make up things like "he gets outplayed by Australia 365 days a year" out of their shear disgust for him. I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos.

Ridiculous. When did criticising a poor performance equal hating a player?

Well when it's been going on for months and it still continues after he is not included in the 23 then it becomes quite obvious.

Still ridiculous. Phillips didn't play well. saying that doesn't mean I hate him.

Now you're being ridiculous. I also said he didn't play well, I don't hate him. But I wasn't just referring to his criticism (deserved) for his first test performances, I was referring to the months of unnecessary criticism/hate and also referred to the fact he is still being bitched about even now after people get their wish for him to be excluded from the next test. I pretty much wrote all of this earlier so next time just go back and read it because I'm already tired of having to explain it to you.

The Saint wrote:Ben Youngs won't become the next scapegoat, he isn't Welsh enough for that. I'm not denying Phillips was poor last weekend, I wanted him off a lot sooner. I don't see why fans need to make up things like "he gets outplayed by Australia 365 days a year" out of their shear disgust for him. I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos.

Is this bit directed at me? What I actually said (word for word) was: "Phillips often struggles against Australia", which isn't quite the same thing. In the Aus-Wales matches I've watched over the last couple of years Australia have targeted Phillips and he's been unable to stamp his authority on the game. He hasn't always been as poor as he was on Saturday, but I've never seen him win the individual battle with Genia. While some of the criticism of Phillips has been harsher than necessary IMO, I think - injury or not - Youngs is a good choice for this week-end. I'm going both on past records (Youngs has certainly got the better of Genia on previous occasions) and on what happened on Saturday.

It doesn't mean I hate Phillips, but sometimes against different teams you need different players: against SA Phillips would be a must for instance, but against Australia I prefer the Youngs option.

The Saint wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:'I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos. '
 
Unbelievable, This has nothing to do with Phillips being Welsh!

HIS A LION.

Sure...
It's quite ironic that you asked someone else to stop having a dig at the Lions when all you have done is have a dig at a Lions player.

When someone is blaming Phillips individual poor showing on the basis that other players weren't backing him up then yes I will defend the other players (Lions), as Phillips all round game was awful that's hardly the fault of the other players. You seem to have it in for me are you Rev under another name?

VictorU3 wrote:Its a talking point as on his day Phillips is a handful for anyone yet Aus have always taken him out of the game, Gatland knows this more than anyone so has he lost patience with him or is he injured?
 
The only thing I hate about Phillips is that he was with Duffy, plus his good looks. (so I'm told, not that I would know:erm:)

These are the inaccurate statements I'm talking about. They've done it a whole one time (last Saturday). And they did very well in doing so.
BTW, I've stuck up for Farrell and Croft among other Lions in case you think this is a case of one-eye.

What about last summer, Aus contained him then too, what about the AI.

btw this isn't a eng v wales debate, sticking up for Croft and Farrell is meant to prove what exactly.

The Saint wrote:I wasn't just referring to his criticism (deserved) for his first test performances, I was referring to the months of unnecessary criticism/hate and also referred to the fact he is still being bitched about even now after people get their wish for him to be excluded from the next test. I pretty much wrote all of this earlier so next time just go back and read it because I'm already tired of having to explain it to you.

So no one's allowed to criticise him now without being lumped in with those who criticised him in the past? And as for people 'bitching' about him, how can we discuss his omission from the squad without mentioning him?

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

The Saint wrote:Ben Youngs won't become the next scapegoat, he isn't Welsh enough for that. I'm not denying Phillips was poor last weekend, I wanted him off a lot sooner. I don't see why fans need to make up things like "he gets outplayed by Australia 365 days a year" out of their shear disgust for him. I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos.

Is this bit directed at me? What I actually said (word for word) was: "Phillips often struggles against Australia", which isn't quite the same thing. In the Aus-Wales matches I've watched over the last couple of years Australia have targeted Phillips and he's been unable to stamp his authority on the game. He hasn't always been as poor as he was on Saturday, but I've never seen him win the individual battle with Genia. While some of the criticism of Phillips has been harsher than necessary IMO, I think - injury or not - Youngs is a good choice for this week-end. I'm going both on past records (Youngs has certainly got the better of Genia on previous occasions) and on what happened on Saturday.

It doesn't mean I hate Phillips, but sometimes against different teams you need different players: against SA Phillips would be a must for instance, but against Australia I prefer the Youngs option.

Well there's 4 more recent tests between Wales and Aus where Phillips has started, going back as far the 2011 RWC. And Phillips didn't struggle. So apart from last Saturday's test match I have no idea where you would get such an idea.
And how exactly do No.9's win individual battles? Sure Genia is world class no doubt about it. I'm just curious as to when these jousts took place, because I've been told he made Phillips look like a school girl on every occasion .
I'm in full agreement with: " against SA Phillips would be a must for instance, but against Australia I prefer the Youngs option."

Good to see Youngs in for Phillips, as well as Bowe in for Cuthbert. Think Lydiate coming in for Croft is a negative change though. Two enforced changes as well through injury; Vunipola may weaken our scrum considerably and POC is just difficult to replace.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

The Saint wrote:I wasn't just referring to his criticism (deserved) for his first test performances, I was referring to the months of unnecessary criticism/hate and also referred to the fact he is still being bitched about even now after people get their wish for him to be excluded from the next test. I pretty much wrote all of this earlier so next time just go back and read it because I'm already tired of having to explain it to you.

So no one's allowed to criticise him now without being lumped in with those who criticised him in the past? And as for people 'bitching' about him, how can we discuss his omission from the squad without mentioning him?

Discussing an omission in a constructive way is a good debate, though some people may need reminding that there is more than a single omission. How would nobody be allowed to criticise him? This is a discussion forum. I'm not really sure what you're getting at here, all I can say is go back and read what I've previously wrote because I think I made my point quite clear.

VictorU3 wrote:

btw this isn't a eng v wales debate, sticking up for Croft and Farrell is meant to prove what exactly.

Read my comments.

The Saint wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:

btw this isn't a eng v wales debate, sticking up for Croft and Farrell is meant to prove what exactly.

Read my comments.

 
 
So sticking up for Croft and Farrell is meant to prove what exactly, remember you're the one accusing me of picking on Phillips because I hate him and being anti welsh

I can see tomorrows game being very close and edge of the seat stuff, but I've got to be honest going into the 3rd test with it being 1-1 would be very exciting.

VictorU3 wrote:
 So sticking up for Croft and Farrell is meant to prove what exactly, remember you're the one accusing me of picking on Phillips because I hate him and being anti welsh

VictorU3 wrote:When someone is blaming Phillips individual poor showing on the basis that other players weren't backing him up then yes I will defend the other players (Lions), as Phillips all round game was awful that's hardly the fault of the other players. You seem to have it in for me are you Rev under another name?

That I'm part of the united fan base that supports the Lions. I don't go slating other players because of their nationality, something that's gone on even before the tour kicked off. I stand by the players and support them, I thought you could have worked this out from what I originally wrote. I guess I shouldn't assume people have initiative.
You've quite clearly had a dig at a Lions player while telling someone to stop having a dig at the Lions. And isn't this a team game Vic? You'd think Phillips has already cost us the series the way some people are going on. Don't contradict yourself and make accusations, that's just a silly thing to do!

Saint/Victor

You have bee asked already by Pete to give the bickering a rest. Final warning. Chat about rugby and stop the the accusations and nonsense or I will simply ban both of your accounts until the tour is over.

Ozzy3213 there is nothing nasty going on here, this is a discussion board after all.

I simply want to know if Phillips has been dropped because he was poor or because he is injured, Gatland says his fit other posters say his injured.

When another poster (Ruby) is defending Phillips poor showing in the 1st test on the fact that other players (Lions) were at fault for not reading his mind then yes I will defend the other players as Phillips is a professional player who knew that his team mates won't have played with him much and therefore should have changed a small part of his game to suit.

I wonder if Phillips hs been disciplined? Young starting ahead of Phillips is no surprise given his poor game last week. However, to not make the bench seems very strange........ I wonder if Phillips has spat out his dummy/been up to shennanigans. Its seems a mighty fall from grace.

The Saint wrote:

Mad for Chelsea wrote:

The Saint wrote:Ben Youngs won't become the next scapegoat, he isn't Welsh enough for that. I'm not denying Phillips was poor last weekend, I wanted him off a lot sooner. I don't see why fans need to make up things like "he gets outplayed by Australia 365 days a year" out of their shear disgust for him. I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos.

Is this bit directed at me? What I actually said (word for word) was: "Phillips often struggles against Australia", which isn't quite the same thing. In the Aus-Wales matches I've watched over the last couple of years Australia have targeted Phillips and he's been unable to stamp his authority on the game. He hasn't always been as poor as he was on Saturday, but I've never seen him win the individual battle with Genia. While some of the criticism of Phillips has been harsher than necessary IMO, I think - injury or not - Youngs is a good choice for this week-end. I'm going both on past records (Youngs has certainly got the better of Genia on previous occasions) and on what happened on Saturday.

It doesn't mean I hate Phillips, but sometimes against different teams you need different players: against SA Phillips would be a must for instance, but against Australia I prefer the Youngs option.

Well there's 4 more recent tests between Wales and Aus where Phillips has started, going back as far the 2011 RWC. And Phillips didn't struggle. So apart from last Saturday's test match I have no idea where you would get such an idea.
And how exactly do No.9's win individual battles? Sure Genia is world class no doubt about it. I'm just curious as to when these jousts took place, because I've been told he made Phillips look like a school girl on every occasion .
I'm in full agreement with: " against SA Phillips would be a must for instance, but against Australia I prefer the Youngs option."

fair enough. I felt Phillips struggled last summer, but that's my opinion. Certainly he didn't have a positive influence on those matches.

Last Saturday he had a poor match, which may have been related to his niggle, or may have been related to the style clash previously mentioned (or even a bit of both). That doesn't make him a poor player, he's still a very fine rugby player IMO. What it does mean is that I'm not too unhappy about him not being in the squad for the upcoming match.

wrfc1980 wrote:I wonder if Phillips hs been disciplined? Young starting ahead of Phillips is no surprise given his poor game last week. However, to not make the bench seems very strange........ I wonder if Phillips has spat out his dummy/been up to shennanigans. Its seems a mighty fall from grace.

I'd say it's simply that Murray is virtually a Phillips Mark2 now (in reasonably good form) and that Phillips must still be Phillips in bad form, even during training...which we don't get to see.

I'd say Phillips is just provng he's off the boil and this game is the one the Lions really want to win to have it all done by the third test.

Maybe Phillips was out getting a burger at 4am?

Victor

I wasn't saying you can't question the reasons for Phillips ommission from the matchday 23, I was referring to the bickering between yourself and Saint.

I too question the reasons for Phillips not featuring this week. I find it difficult to believe that even after a below par performance Gatland would remove him completely from the matchday squad. I could see him benching him for Youngs, but not disposing of him completely, which leads me to suspect that he is in fact not 100% fit.

But Gatland has said he was fit for selection, why would he lie about that? The more I think about it the more feel that something has gone on behind the scenes and is being kept under wraps.

He said that he was fit but later on said that resting this week gives him a better chance of being 100% for the first test, indicating to me that he is carrying a knock.

Listening to Andrew McKenna on talkSPORT this morning he was saying that during one of the flights last week or the week before Phillips knee had swollen up considerably indicating that he may have a bit of a problem.

This team looks like a speculative punt to me, as far as I can tell Gatland only came want to Australia with one game plan and that was to split the Australian defence between Phillips running hard around the tight and Jamie Roberts smashing down the 12 channel. Without both of them on the pitch that doesnt work, so this week he puts out all our playmakers in Youngs, Bowe, Davies, North and BOD hoping their individual skills can win the game, against an Australian backline thats not at its best, but with a back up plan of being able to use his game plan with Phillips and Roberts fit for the third test.

i might be talking Rubbish here but if so what was our game plan last week, I couldn't see one, some tactics like hanging onto the ball through short lineout throws but what was the attach plan?

Why should it be a mystery at all...either injury or discipline? It doesn't have to be either.

The scrumhalves that are playing the best heads-up rugby so far for Lions in order are: Youngs, Murray and then Phillips. Gatland wants to win the series, why would he even still bench a player who has not been having a happy tour form-wise?

Not sure I agree that he's not been having 'a happy tour form-wise' though SecretFly. He's done pretty well when I've seen in the pre test games, and even though not at his best last Saturday I don't think he was awful. Therefore I can't see Gatland binning him without there being some other factor in play.

Thats fair enough, if only Gatland was honest and up front then there would have been no need for the confusion, injuries happen.

Gatland has always been cagey around injuries though as far as I can recall. I suspect he wants to keep the Wobblies guessing around what's in store next week.

Ozzy3213 wrote:Not sure I agree that he's not been having 'a happy tour form-wise' though SecretFly.  He's done pretty well when I've seen in the pre test games, and even though not at his best last Saturday I don't think he was awful.  Therefore I can't see Gatland binning him without there being some other factor in play.

Ruby knows what I think of Phillips in general.  I think he's often the fire in the belly of Wales, the guy that generates the adrenaline emotionally.  Very important player for them.

But nope, I haven't been seeing the Phillips I know during this tour.  It's a technique issue/decision making issue yes...but it's moreso a lack of biting emotional edge that both he and his team need for him to be most effective.  

His best game is a very emotional one.  He doesn't have it so far, and this game is too serious to allow him another opportunity to 'prove' himself.  It's too much of a risk.  I said a few days ago that he seems to me to be the only player who should be worried about his inclusion - turns out there have been more changes than I thought (some from injuries of course) but had Cuthbert missed out on a starting place and Phillips got his, that would have been very curious logic from the coaching staff.

is it wrong to actually secretly want the Aussies to win this one to set up a real humdinger of a final test?

I don't think I've ever seen a Lions test selection where so much debate has focused around the scrum half position. Philips is the best at what he does, Youngs is the best at what he does. Let's see if it improves Sexton's game. The service Sexton gets from Boss at Leinster would suggest that a quick ball game is preferable for him. But let's see.
 
Apart from POC in the prevous game, I don't think that there have been any major injuries at lock. Presumably Gats is banking on that. The curious thing is that so much emphasis has been on the set piece but this pack is designed to make the most of work in the loose. We will miss POC's big carries so it's going to be up to Vuni, AWJ and Heaslip to make the hard yards. Heaslip needs to up his game because he's not a certainty for the third test in my view. If we get out-worked at the fringes, then we need Faletau back.
 
I'm trying to forget about the doomsday injury scenarios and focus on the fact that we have Young and Bowe back. I don't understand people suggesting that JDII doesn't deserve to start - he absolutely does and has been a complete performer on this tour. And what's all this stuff about JD not bringing enough power to the midfield. At 6'4" and 16 and a half stone, how much bigger do you want? He's better at defensive positioning than Manu I think and if you don't think that matters against LLF, then you obviously haven't been watching the Brumbies much this year.

The Saint wrote:Ben Youngs won't become the next scapegoat, he isn't Welsh enough for that. I'm not denying Phillips was poor last weekend, I wanted him off a lot sooner. I don't see why fans need to make up things like "he gets outplayed by Australia 365 days a year" out of their shear disgust for him. I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos.

Trust me, B. Youngs is English, he will be made a scapegoat if anything goes wrong.

Phillips has always had "he's too slow" thing thrown at him, he's bigger than most SH so he's bound to be slower. He uses his size to his advantage in often trying to go himself when he should just do the basic thing and get the ball out as quick as he can.

I think people are referring to the fact thats he's lined up against Australia a fair bit recently and not won.

The lions "ethos" isn't about closing both eyes and ignoring problems, we're here to discuss things...

Mad for Chelsea wrote:is it wrong to actually secretly want the Aussies to win this one to set up a real humdinger of a final test?

No, I've said the same a couple of times myself.

BBC Reporting that

The IRB will contest the decision to clear Australia captain James Horwill of trampling or stamping during the first Lions test.

Horwill was deemed not to have made intentional contact with the head of Lions lock Alun Wyn Jones by judicial officer Nigel Hampton QC.

However, rugby's world governing body has now confirmed to the Australian Rugby Union an appeal will take place.

Interesting so will he play or not?

If Australia win this one then I don't see too many rabbits left in the Lion's hat for the last one.  Australia do enough to win this one (tactically as much as physically), then I think they'll win the third.
They're fighting into form, Lions are winding down after a long, long season.  One iffy win (virtual loss but for Aussie shoddy kicking), one real loss and then something super in the third? -  Maybe. -  But I think the one beligerent performance the Lions usually have in them per test series should be the next one.

He's allowed to play in the second Test Victor.

TBH not a huge fan of this appeal, didn't look like much in it to me...

VictorU3 wrote:BBC Reporting that

The IRB will contest the decision to clear Australia captain James Horwill of trampling or stamping during the first Lions test.

Horwill was deemed not to have made intentional contact with the head of Lions lock Alun Wyn Jones by judicial officer Nigel Hampton QC.

However, rugby's world governing body has now confirmed to the Australian Rugby Union an appeal will take place.

Interesting so will he play or not?

Victor - Horwill is free to play pending the appeal which takes place after the 2nd test. Its on the IRB website

He better play all his rugby in the Saturday game then...... just in case

FLY - Phillips is carrying a knock; otherwise he would have been on the bench - If fit he will be back in contention next weekend. Gats was going to go with Youngs for this test anyways but his decision was eased with the niggle that has affected Phillips. We need that platform up front and I'm a little uncertain we have that with Vumipolo and Parling who bring a different set of skills as opposed to helping anchor down the front 5. Here's hoping

The platform one is a good point. My big concern is if anything happens to AWJ. Big problems in the front five if that happens.

Didn't realise Phillips was injured - I expected Youngs to start but was surprised he wasn't on the bench as an impact sub. Murray hasn't been bad on the tour to be fair, he may yet have the opportunity for a "Matt Dawson" moment.....

Now I know the team I have gone for Aus, I suspect Aus have been working on their scrum and the Lions have de-powered theirs. No second row on the bench when Parling is not the biggest guy in the squad hence only Croft to replace him or AWJ, mad.

Typical Gatland picking injured players like Bowe, I hope he does not hurt himself with a hand off etc. Cuthbert should either start or not at all as he only plays wing. Great idea dropping your best finisher in Cuthbert. Bowe is not the best defender in the world having watched him a number of times at the Ospreys and Brew running two tries past him at the Dragons. The bench front row looks better than the starting front row as a unit so there is an option off the bench to prop up the scrum.

There is a lot of talk regarding Phillips, the games I managed to watch Youngs play I thought he was poor, Hogg was getting the ball over his head and behind him also the passes were floated which does not help the flyhalf playing near the gain line. He did take the try well from the back of the line out, he does have an eye for the try line.

I can't see Aus missing as many kicks as the first test so for me, Aus to win even with a better Lions back row balance, Youngs should get more protection.

I would start Grant at LH, Gray instead of Parling, Evans on the bench instead of Croft and Faletau at 8 and Heasilp on the bench in place of SOB and Bowe on the bench with Cuthbert on the wing. Had Bowe not been injured he would be my starter. I would also have Tipuric in place of Warburton but that would never happen with Gatland.

VictorU3 wrote:

The Saint wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:'I guess a lot of 'fans' still don't get the Lions ethos. '
 
Unbelievable, This has nothing to do with Phillips being Welsh!

HIS A LION.

Sure...
It's quite ironic that you asked someone else to stop having a dig at the Lions when all you have done is have a dig at a Lions player.

When someone is blaming Phillips individual poor showing on the basis that other players weren't backing him up then yes I will defend the other players (Lions), as Phillips all round game was awful that's hardly the fault of the other players. You seem to have it in for me are you Rev under another name?

No Hersh, he's not. I don't have it in for you, I just don't see how banned users are allowed to return. I can prove you are who you are. You've done it again on this thread.

glamorganalun wrote:

Typical Gatland picking injured players like Bowe, I hope he does not hurt himself with a hand off etc. Cuthbert should either start or not at all as he only plays wing. Great idea dropping your best finisher in Cuthbert. Bowe is not the best defender in the world having watched him a number of times at the Ospreys and Brew running two tries past him at the Dragons. The bench front row looks better than the starting front row as a unit so there is an option off the bench to prop up the scrum.

There is a lot of talk regarding Phillips, the games I managed to watch Youngs play I thought he was poor, Hogg was getting the ball over his head and behind him also the passes were floated which does not help the flyhalf playing near the gain line. He did take the try well from the back of the line out, he does have an eye for the try line.

Yet you'd have him pick an 'injured' Phillips?

Don't agree with dropping Cuthbert either. Finished for Wales in the key final 6N match and again scored a crucial try in the first test.

Dropping one of the only wings in test rugby who is scoring tries and who has gained a sniff for the tryline doesnt seem smart, no matter what Bowe has done to deserve his place. He aint been scoring tries vs the Ozzies.

SecretFly wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

Typical Gatland picking injured players like Bowe, I hope he does not hurt himself with a hand off etc. Cuthbert should either start or not at all as he only plays wing. Great idea dropping your best finisher in Cuthbert. Bowe is not the best defender in the world having watched him a number of times at the Ospreys and Brew running two tries past him at the Dragons. The bench front row looks better than the starting front row as a unit so there is an option off the bench to prop up the scrum.

There is a lot of talk regarding Phillips, the games I managed to watch Youngs play I thought he was poor, Hogg was getting the ball over his head and behind him also the passes were floated which does not help the flyhalf playing near the gain line. He did take the try well from the back of the line out, he does have an eye for the try line.

Yet you'd have him pick an 'injured' Phillips?

Where did I say pick Phillips, I was just saying Youngs did not play well in the games I have seen. I did not know Phillips was injured until Gatland admitted he was injured prior to the first test, as I stated, typical Gatland. I am happy Murrey is on the bench so if Youngs is wayward again he is a good replacement. I am a Bowe fan having watched him at the Ospreys but he is no centre or FB like Cuthbert a very good support player and finisher. For me Cuthbert either starts or should not be in the team.