2nd TEST - AUS vs BRITISH & IRISH LIONS - 29th June - (KO-11:05 GMT)

First topic message reminder :

2nd Test build-up thread
 
Can the Lions finish the job?
Will Aus bounch back (like we know they can)?
Will the Ref know the rules?
 
Aus have called up George Smith, Jesse Mogg and centre Ben Tapuai but still No Cooper?
(talk about shooting yourself in the foot!)
 
15. Halfpenny,
14. Bowe,
13. BOD,
12. Davies,
11.North,
10. Sexton,
9. Youngs;

1. Vunipola
2. Youngs,
3. Jones,
4. AWJ,
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. Warburton,
8. Heaslip

Replacements:
16 Hibbard, 17 Grant, 18 Cole, 19 Croft, 20 O'Brien, 21 Murray, 22 Farrell, 23 Cuthbert


Australia
15 Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels)
14 Israel Folau (NSW)
13 Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW)
12 Christian Leali'ifano (ACT Brumbies)
11 Joe Tomane (Brumbies)
10 James O'Connor (Melbourne Rebels)
9 Will Genia (Reds)
8 Wycliff Palu (NSW)
7 Michael Hooper (NSW)
6 Ben Mowen (ACT)
5 Kane Douglas (NSW)
4 James Horwill (Reds - Cap)
3 Ben Alexander (ACT)
2 Stephen Moore (ACT)
1 Benn Robinson (NSW)

16 Saia Fainga'a (Reds)
17 James Slipper (Reds)
18 Sekope Kepu (NSW)
19 Rob Simmons (Reds)
20 Liam Gill (Reds)
21 Nick Phipps (Rebels)
22 Rob Horne (NSW)
23 Jesse Mogg (Brumbies)

 
For those wanting to see it again and again and again etc.....http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=GEORGE+NORTHS+LIONS+TRY&view=detail&mid=64E92B2D2B1B4128364264E92B2D2B1B41283642&first=0&FORM=NVPFVR&qpvt=GEORGE+NORTHS+LIONS+TRY

Taylorman wrote:Don't agree with dropping Cuthbert either. Finished for Wales in the key final 6N match and again scored a crucial try in the first test.

Dropping one of the only wings in test rugby who is scoring tries and who has gained a sniff for the tryline doesnt seem smart, no matter what Bowe has done to deserve his place. He aint been scoring tries vs the Ozzies.

True, top try scorer in the 6N and so far in the Lions tour, I suspect Bowe was picked before the tour like BOD,SW and POC regardless of form.

glamorganalun wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

Typical Gatland picking injured players like Bowe, I hope he does not hurt himself with a hand off etc. Cuthbert should either start or not at all as he only plays wing. Great idea dropping your best finisher in Cuthbert. Bowe is not the best defender in the world having watched him a number of times at the Ospreys and Brew running two tries past him at the Dragons. The bench front row looks better than the starting front row as a unit so there is an option off the bench to prop up the scrum.

There is a lot of talk regarding Phillips, the games I managed to watch Youngs play I thought he was poor, Hogg was getting the ball over his head and behind him also the passes were floated which does not help the flyhalf playing near the gain line. He did take the try well from the back of the line out, he does have an eye for the try line.

Yet you'd have him pick an 'injured' Phillips?

Where did I say pick Phillips, I was just saying Youngs did not play well in the games I have seen. I did not know Phillips was injured until Gatland admitted he was injured prior to the first test, as I stated, typical Gatland. I am happy Murrey is on the bench so if Youngs is wayward again he is a good replacement. I am a Bowe fan having watched him at the Ospreys but he is no centre or FB like Cuthbert a very good support player and finisher. For me Cuthbert either starts or should not be in the team.

I have a lot of time for Bowe and if fully fit then he would be a nailed on starter. But surely with a hand that still needs a protective glove, so little game time and with Cuthbert converting almost every opportunity that comes to him, and also Maitland who had a storming game in mid-week it seems almost a tad crazy to select Tommy for the 2nd Test. I would have had Cuthbert starting and Maitland on the bench to cover 15, 14, 11 jerseys.

I would have kept Bowe like Phillips if req'd for the 3rd test

glamorganalun wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Don't agree with dropping Cuthbert either. Finished for Wales in the key final 6N match and again scored a crucial try in the first test.

Dropping one of the only wings in test rugby who is scoring tries and who has gained a sniff for the tryline doesnt seem smart, no matter what Bowe has done to deserve his place. He aint been scoring tries vs the Ozzies.

True, top try scorer in the 6N and so far in the Lions tour, I suspect Bowe was picked before the tour like BOD,SW and POC regardless of form.

So BOD and POC haven't been holding their own on this tour?  Both POC and BOD have more recent 'form' than Cuthbert.  Cuthbert's proving himself to be a class is permanent kinda guy but I don't think the other two old men are proving form is temporary.  O'Driscoll was on fire for Leinster at the tail end of the season.  
It's also easier to shine when you're surrounded by much of your own team.  Don't go blaming lack of impact on the four Irish men in that largely Welsh outfit last weekend

There's a fever of unspoken-ness going on on these boards.

SecretFly wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

Taylorman wrote:Don't agree with dropping Cuthbert either. Finished for Wales in the key final 6N match and again scored a crucial try in the first test.

Dropping one of the only wings in test rugby who is scoring tries and who has gained a sniff for the tryline doesnt seem smart, no matter what Bowe has done to deserve his place. He aint been scoring tries vs the Ozzies.

True, top try scorer in the 6N and so far in the Lions tour, I suspect Bowe was picked before the tour like BOD,SW and POC regardless of form.

So BOD and POC haven't been holding their own on this tour?  Both POC and BOD have more recent 'form' than Cuthbert.  Cuthbert's proving himself to be a class is permanent kinda guy but I don't think the other two old men are proving form is temporary.  O'Driscoll was on fire for Leinster at the tail end of the season.  
It's also easier to shine when you're surrounded by much of your own team.  Don't go blaming lack of impact on the four Irish men in that largely Welsh outfit last weekend

There's a fever of unspoken-ness going on on these boards.

What are you on, I included Warburton in my list, I could add Roberts to the players who were going to play regardless of form. POC has played really well but like Lydiate (another) has been injured over the last 12 months. The 6N was supposed to be the the qualification games but that changed to suit the untouchables. What has BOD done just like Lydiate to walk into the first test he only played against the weakest teams, he ran 6m with the ball all game but he is there again for the second test. If Roberts was fit he would start in place of Davies, what has Roberts done to deserve walking into the team ahead of Davies? I am not having a go at the Irish but you have to admit the guys I listed including Warburton (I would play Tipuric) were picked to start regardless how they played in the warm ups.

Cuthbert is a great finisher. But Bowe is smarter, more creative, better in under the high ball and better positionally in defence. And he's not a bad finisher either. Tough on Cuthbert but coaches will nearly always go for the classier player in spite of form/fitness concerns.

Glamorganalun, you've included Warburton in your list - yes, and an easy one to add in as everyone seems to feel safe mentioning him.  Incidently, I don't see a whole lot wrong with Warbs...but there you go, we all look for different qualities.
But in the space of a few short sentences you did isolate three players for mention..Bowe, POC, BOD.  Forgive me but that's a statement, however subconsious it might be.  

It's up to the playmakers to control how much running with ball the centres might get.  Sexton wasn't working because Phillips wasn't working and therefore the whole backline wasn't working.  Phillips, by many commentators, was seen as having the weakest game of the last test and yet this place is still swarming with mostly Welsh fans who are suggesting he wasn't all that bad and that it was cruel he has lost his place.  He was the reason the backs weren't firing, not the centres.  If you're in the fulcrum spot then you have to take the criticism.

O'Driscoll had two early turnovers that were comically called against him.  Don't blame him for doing what he does in the NH and gets hailed for it.  He then felt the need to stay away from that territory because he might have gotten a yellow - bad for team, would have got much stick here had it happened

He ran 19 metres not 6.  He had 11 tackles to Davis's equally impressive 10. No misses against a side that required a lot of tackling to keep at bay...as the Lions attacking didn't get any rhythm because of the 9/10 axis being rushed and pushed out of effectiveness.
He offloaded twice to Davis's once and passed 6 times (assuming it was to people like Davis to do his meters with) to Davis's 2.
He ran 5 times for his 19 meters. Davis ran 9 times for his 30.  Do the maths, O'Driscoll's average of distance per carry is better.

Is that denigrating Davis?  Nope.  That's saying Davis looks a real tasty player but the old guy beside him doesn't need lessons from you or indeed Davis on the requirements of being a centre. He did fine with what he had to play with.

Form is temporary and class is permanent. Gatland leans towards the class is permanent and hence TB etc. I would have chosen TB ahead of Cuthbert for this test

Feckless Rogue wrote:Cuthbert is a great finisher. But Bowe is smarter, more creative, better in under the high ball and better positionally in defence. And he's not a bad finisher either. Tough on Cuthbert but coaches will nearly always go for the classier player in spite of form/fitness concerns.

Yes but he hasnt played test rugby in 2013, while Cuthbert is scoring the winning tries in tests in 2013. Can't say theres not a risk in that Bowe just may need to use some of the game time getting back up to speed with test rugby...Cutherbert doesnt. Still looks a risky call.

Taylorman wrote:

Feckless Rogue wrote:Cuthbert is a great finisher. But Bowe is smarter, more creative, better in under the high ball and better positionally in defence. And he's not a bad finisher either. Tough on Cuthbert but coaches will nearly always go for the classier player in spite of form/fitness concerns.

Yes but he hasnt played test rugby in 2013, while Cuthbert is scoring the winning tries in tests in 2013. Can't say theres not a risk in that Bowe just may need to use some of the game time getting back up to speed with test rugby...Cutherbert doesnt. Still looks a risky call.

Yeah I don't disagree with any of that Taylorman. But we constantly see coaches making the risky call on the more experienced and trusted player, based on a track record of top class performances more than recent form.

Bowe should have been asked to play midweek against the Rebels.  I don't like walk-ins either especially when Cuthbert was doing little wrong and is always dangerous in attack.

But there just must be gameplans somewhere rolling around on paper or in the coachs' head that suggests Bowe to him considering he didn't want to risk Bowe proving himself to an extent against the Rebels and then went ahead and picked him anyway, straight after a recovery from a finger break.

Perhaps Bowe is simply caapable of mimicing Roberts more physical linebreaking work than perhaps Cuthbert achieves with his more nuanced 'finding gaps' methods?

Gatland came to Australia with a Roberts gameplan there somewhere and maybe he's just instinctively trying to effect it in the absense of his first preference bowling ball.

Reading a lot of these posts it seems to me that certain people want The Lions to lose to say "Gatland got this wrong" or " too many Welshmen" or " not enough Scots". Can I remind people we actually won last week and I don't care how scrappy it was or how lucky we were. I would take the same again this Saturday and will be delighted whoever scores the points, whichever country he comes from

Bowe is also a more intelligent player than Cuthbert and he has great composure at this level

It's all about winning Pyleboy. It was before my time but apparently the '97 Lions were battered by the Boks, outscored in the try count but scrapped to victory. They were also the last Lions so lose to a provincial team I believe. Now they're pretty much seen as legends. Because they got over the line with a rare series win.

Some interesting thoughts posted regarding Phillips being targeted by the Aussie hooker last week. A point raised by Stuart Barnes during the game from what I remember!

They did a good job preventing Phillips from playing his best. Due to an injury he doesn't make the team this week but we have good reserve in Youngs and Murray. Both very talented players.

One point not raised is if Phillips was targeted then surely Youngs will be too this week. And who would be better at dealing with that out of the options available...? Although all three scrumhalfs are very talented lads, good Australian tactical defense will limit any players effectiveness.

We need to hope the forwards can give Youbgs and Sexton the platform they need to be there best. The backrow looks a great deal more abbrassive without Croft and hopefully that will counter the loss of POC and Corbisiero, both were superb last week.

It will be a very different game this week, Joubert views the breakdown differently, he likes the way Warburton and O'Bruen play it, he would not have penalised Bod last week he would have penalised Australia instead...

We might get our platform and Youngs could prove to be just the man we all want.

Here's hoping anyway...!

By the way I read that Bowe is cover for Centre and Fullback hence Cuthbert on the bench.

The Lions series is really little more than an audition for the job of All Black coach.

So if Gatland out does Deans this weekend, then will he even return to Wales? Or having clinched the north's premier prize where SCW and Henry failed will he merely take up the role at the Highlanders and wait for shag to bail just before 2015?

The latter

He's spent five years telling these guys they ate better than the opposition, then drops them in their opponents favour. Doesn't work. He can't carry on with Wales.

He should get back down to Waihi and finish cleaning those windows.. Theyre a disgrace.

Take it you're not a fan of his then Laurie?

Quite the contrary Glas, I would rate him as the best coach outside of SA, Aus and NZ at the moment.

How gracious! Future All Black coach...

Most definitely, hed be thereabouts, but he has to prove himself with the Lions first.

Glas a du wrote:He's spent five years telling these guys they ate better than the opposition, then drops them in their opponents favour. Doesn't work. He can't carry on with Wales.

So they ate at Vale health club while the other teams dined down chip alley? Man managemant for ya...

Won't mean much in NZ if the Lions win 2 out of 3 in AUS... they've been doing it for a while now.
If Gatland wants the NZ job he will have to prove himself in NZ rugby by taking a SR job... either that or Wales start beating NZ both home and away.

Difficult for the Lions though if the NZ coach is Gatland 2017... he will know how to exploit the Lions just like Henry did. Inside knowledge of their weaknesses, strengths and the players themselves would almost make the lions chances near impossible.

To be honest I would be happy if he were to stay in the SH after the tour is finished.

I used to really rate him as a top class coach, but his tactics and attitude with the welsh squad are really annoying. I am aware Wales have won 3 6Ns since he took over (yes one was Howley as coach, but Gats was involved still IMO), and but we have also seen two of our worst ever losing streaks during his time too. So personally I would be happy enough to see him go and see Howler take over full time (never thought i would say that), especially as Howler would be far cheaper.

I think he may well be a future All Blacks coach, and will probably do a decnt job there.

Before everyone sends him home to New Zealand, who is is the wings ready to take over? Howley?

For Wales the only realistic option in the wings is Howley, however he was the man in charge during the 6Ns so who knows he may be ready for the job. He is also a two times Lions coach, and a Lions player in the past too. Pretty good CV really (3 x 6Ns, 2 x GS, 1 x Retained 6Ns 2 x Lions tour), but I know that is just me trying to be positive.

doctor_grey wrote:Before everyone sends him home to New Zealand, who is is the wings ready to take over?  Howley?

Robbie Deans!  

Be careful what you wish for - remember the mess we were in when Gatland took the job. All the good work done by Hansen in making the squad have a professional outlook undone by Gareth Jenkins, who was supposed to be the people's choice. (according to The Western Mail).

I hope Gatland stays until the end of his contract as there is very little other choice within the regions and am not sure Howley is the long term answer.

Can't see Gats sitting out RWC 2015 and the job with Wales is only half done. So for rugby reasons I'd figure he'll stay. But non-rugby reasons who knows money health family and he's been away from home a long time

GloriousEmpire wrote:The Lions series is really little more than an audition for the job of All Black coach.

So if Gatland out does Deans this weekend, then will he even return to Wales? Or having clinched the north's premier prize where SCW and Henry failed will he merely take up the role at the Highlanders and wait for shag to bail just before 2015?

Wishful thinking, Gloria?

Would the ABs be interested in the style of rugby Gatland is pursuing with the Lions? I would have thought they'd prefer a coach inclined to a more 'NZ' style.

i would like him to stay until the next world cup mostly because howley will prob be next coach and after last years AI and the Ireland game i rather him wait a few more years . Wales Australia tour was painful to watch .we threw away the last two games by poor decision making

Gatland is much fatter now compared to when he was coaching Wasps.  
I think the WRU is feeding him too much.

seen gats try against the lions on youtube . gatland with dark hair .   

mbernz wrote:Would the ABs be interested in the style of rugby Gatland is pursuing with the Lions?  I would have thought they'd prefer a coach inclined to a more 'NZ' style.

What is this NZ style of which you speak. Over the last 40 years NZ have been rather pragmatic in how they play, changing the focus of their game to suit the players available to them and the law interpretations in place at the time.

 

aucklandlaurie wrote:  Most definitely, hed be  thereabouts, but he has to prove himself with the Lions first.

It's funny how Gats has to prove himself and New Zealands answer to Scott Johnson (Hansen) just gets handed the top job after achieving sweet FA

Apart from stealing Lyn Jones' line out moves.

 

Glas a du wrote:Apart from stealing Lyn Jones' line out moves.

I would be absolutely gutted if Gatland left before the next world cup.

Howley's appointment would not be good, he is a poor coach and his performances would face intense scrutiny and probably lead to another breakdown of the WRU.

2015 will be Wales best shot if we start appointing out of their depth Welsh coaches after Gatland. Get someone who has actually been a head coach at least.

mbernz wrote:Would the ABs be interested in the style of rugby Gatland is pursuing with the Lions?  I would have thought they'd prefer a coach inclined to a more 'NZ' style.

I imagine he does what he can, with what he has.

    I imagine he does what he can, with what he has.

"One point not raised is if Phillips was targeted then surely Youngs will be too this week. And who would be better at dealing with that out of the options available...? Although all three scrumhalfs are very talented lads, good Australian tactical defense will limit any players effectiveness."

I believe Phillips was targeted because of hos combatative nature & tactic of hitting half gaps. As Matt Dawson said the Aussies were ready for this & drove him back time & again to the point where Phillips didn't know where to go & was left in no mans land. Lot of the time.
Compare that with Ben Youngs who is very quick & will make breaks in gaps but not take on players if their isn't a 'proper gap'.

Selection for next week will be interesting if Youngs plays well today & consequently our playmaker Sexton has more time & options.He surely can't have a bad a game as Phillips did last week.

Pressure for selection can only be a good thing.

mbernz wrote:Would the ABs be interested in the style of rugby Gatland is pursuing with the Lions?  I would have thought they'd prefer a coach inclined to a more 'NZ' style.

"New Zealand" style presumabley includes "waikato" style, which is very much what gatty coachs, he just has a hell of a job getting Wales to play it. but when they do they play some very good rugby.

Gats style with Wales and Lions has been grind forward inch by inch then kick the ball away. Kick your pens and prey a winger does something magic to score or create a try.

I think that when Gatland finishes his WRU contract in 2015 and is then appointed to take the Lions to NZ and wins there, that he would be asked to take the ABs job.

Long way away yet though and can't see any of it effecting Wales..

BigTrevsbigmac wrote:"One point not raised is if Phillips was targeted then surely Youngs will be too this week. And who would be better at dealing with that out of the options available...? Although all three scrumhalfs are very talented lads, good Australian tactical defense will limit any players effectiveness."

I believe Phillips was targeted because of hos combatative nature & tactic of hitting half gaps. As Matt Dawson said the Aussies were ready for this & drove him back time & again to the point where Phillips didn't know where to go & was left in no mans land. Lot of the time.
Compare that with Ben Youngs who is very quick & will make breaks in gaps but not take on players if their isn't a 'proper gap'.

Selection for next week will be interesting if Youngs plays well today & consequently our playmaker Sexton has more time & options.He surely can't have a bad a game as Phillips did last week.

Pressure for selection can only be a good thing.

So why is Ben Youngs a good option???

He is a good player, better passer and kicker than Phillips, quicker too, but lacks Phillips experience and ability to deal with a pack on the back foot. Which I am worried we will be after the Aussies fourth Quarter demolition of our tight five reserves. Hopefully the beefy backrow addition of Lydiate will counter that but we will have to see...!

Youngs will have to completely outplay Genia with his best performance to date to be picked ahead of Phillips should he not recover from his knee injury. Likewise for Connar Murray who will likely come on for Youngs in the second half.

Unfortunately Phillips injury is possibly bad enough that he might be out of the tour. So Murray or Youngs will likely start next week.

All rather reminiscent of how Matt Dawson started for the lions in 97 after Howleys injury. Might be a good omen being forced to use the second choice Scrumhalf...!!!

Gatland isnt stupid ...

As long as he realises how lucky we were last game that Aus were more bottlers than we were we should win this. We have so much talent at our disposal.. Our lads need to come out fighting as if it was the first game again but wise heads are needed big time. We cant expect Oz to just make a sham of there kicking again!

mystiroakey wrote:Gatland isnt stupid ...

As long as he realises how lucky we were last game that Aus were more bottlers than we were we should win this. We have so much talent at our disposal.. Our lads need to come out fighting as if it was the first game again but wise heads are needed big time. We cant expect Oz to just make a sham of there kicking again!

Gatland didn't sound enthused by the performance last week. He's made measures to counter failures, besides the injury replacements the positive changes in the backrow and wing are lessons learnt from last week.

A bit of graft and experience will improve the side no end. Just hope that mako and Parling are up to the job too.