2nd TEST - AUS vs BRITISH & IRISH LIONS - 29th June - (KO-11:05 GMT)

First topic message reminder :

2nd Test build-up thread
 
Can the Lions finish the job?
Will Aus bounch back (like we know they can)?
Will the Ref know the rules?
 
Aus have called up George Smith, Jesse Mogg and centre Ben Tapuai but still No Cooper?
(talk about shooting yourself in the foot!)
 
15. Halfpenny,
14. Bowe,
13. BOD,
12. Davies,
11.North,
10. Sexton,
9. Youngs;

1. Vunipola
2. Youngs,
3. Jones,
4. AWJ,
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. Warburton,
8. Heaslip

Replacements:
16 Hibbard, 17 Grant, 18 Cole, 19 Croft, 20 O'Brien, 21 Murray, 22 Farrell, 23 Cuthbert


Australia
15 Kurtley Beale (Melbourne Rebels)
14 Israel Folau (NSW)
13 Adam Ashley-Cooper (NSW)
12 Christian Leali'ifano (ACT Brumbies)
11 Joe Tomane (Brumbies)
10 James O'Connor (Melbourne Rebels)
9 Will Genia (Reds)
8 Wycliff Palu (NSW)
7 Michael Hooper (NSW)
6 Ben Mowen (ACT)
5 Kane Douglas (NSW)
4 James Horwill (Reds - Cap)
3 Ben Alexander (ACT)
2 Stephen Moore (ACT)
1 Benn Robinson (NSW)

16 Saia Fainga'a (Reds)
17 James Slipper (Reds)
18 Sekope Kepu (NSW)
19 Rob Simmons (Reds)
20 Liam Gill (Reds)
21 Nick Phipps (Rebels)
22 Rob Horne (NSW)
23 Jesse Mogg (Brumbies)

 
For those wanting to see it again and again and again etc.....http://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=GEORGE+NORTHS+LIONS+TRY&view=detail&mid=64E92B2D2B1B4128364264E92B2D2B1B41283642&first=0&FORM=NVPFVR&qpvt=GEORGE+NORTHS+LIONS+TRY

Ozzy3213 wrote:

Thomond wrote:The Lions should have already lost this series, that's the bottom line everyone. If you're goign to paly Gatlandball pick Roberts and Tuilagi, and maybe O'Brien, use North as another battering ram.

+1

At the moment we are playing Gatlandball Lite.

+2. Gatlandball lite was just all weird!

What surprised me was in the first half a rolling maul got pulled down and earned the Lions first points. Then it disappeared pretty much for the rest of the match. Part of that may be attributed to the fact the Lions tail-end lineouts malfunctioned. But it needs to be used far more as a weapon next week.

It was like watching Scotland under Andy Robinson - no clear gameplan, relying on individuals, poor decision making, high profile errors, not able to even hint at scoring a try.

Massively disappointing lions tour so far from a rugby point of view.

Artful_Dodger wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:
Davies had an absolute shocker.  Offered nothing for most of the game and the only times he got the ball he put in the worst grubber I've ever seen and made a number of handling errors.  As Hookism has pointed out his tackle stats are pretty diabolical as well.

Beggars belief

Out of interest Dodgy................ do you think he was worse offensively than anyone else?, perhaps made less yardage than any other Lions back.

With regards to the grubber, it was the right decision and if it had come off there was a try in the offering, under pressure he didn't make proper contact but it doesn't hide the fact that it was a good decision.

Out of interest Dodgy............ who would you have selected at 12?

I would have started Davies at 12 but would consider dropping him for Tuilagi for the next test.  I don't think the grubber was the right decision he had two players outside and even though space was tight it should have gone through the hands.  As for his offensive effort, there wasn't any has everytime he got the ball he fumbled, knocked on or did something ineffectual.

Ahhh so obviously we were watching a different Lions game in a different universe on a different plane then.............. as you didn't see his kick and run which almost led to a potential try and did lead to a pen for us. And you do realise he made more metres with ball in hand than BOD or any of the other backs (apart from Sexton).

The grubber or chip was the only option for two reasons, one because there wasn't enough room for two fluid passes, and two the two opponents would have had to turn back on themselves which in that tight space would have been nye on impossible

He still lost the game by not trusting O'Driscoll to make the tackle and not pushing out further. Naughty boy.

3 meters.

Guys, blame the creator. Gatland.

Thomond wrote:The Lions should have already lost this series, that's the bottom line everyone. If you're goign to paly Gatlandball pick Roberts and Tuilagi, and maybe O'Brien, use North as another battering ram.

Agree. Tuilagi, O'Brien and Gray should start. Better use needs to be made of Bowe/Cuthbert and North.

Got to mix it up for the last test.

Tuilagi, Zebo, Hogg, Maitland, Faleteu, Gray and Evans all deserve a chance.

Maybe both coaches will surprise us and actually make unpredictable selections for next week?

15. Halfpenny
14. Cuthbert
13. Tuilagi
12. Roberts
11. North
10. Sexton
9. Youngs

1. Corbisiero
2. Youngs
3. Jones
4. Gray
5. AW Jones
6. Lydiate
7. O'Brien
8. Heaslip

for the final test. If we're playing Gatlandball let's do it properly and smash Australia across the gainline.

The best team won, in fact the team that wanted to win it won. You have to go and win these games and not just sit back. The criticism of Lions players on here is as usual over the top. It wasn't Davies's best game in a Lions shirt but that's how it breaks sometimes; same goes for Sexton. The forwards just didn't seem to have the right balance but why can't we just go to the front of the line for safe ball from Parling or AWJ. For me it was as much about the decision making and the general lack of control of the ball as opposed to pointing to individuals. Like I said however, the best team won and it's always nice to see a win for the atacking team.



PS - Didn't the ref award us a penalty in their 25 after about 65 mins and then someone threw it to Mako who knocked on and he said advantage over

this is a bit of a big deal

63% (58%/67%)

[b class="liveTblTextGrn" style="color: rgb(17, 171, 63); font-weight: bold; text-align: center; padding: 3px;"]Possession (1H/2H)[/b]

37% (42%/33%)

Australia                                                    Lions

flyhalffactory wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:
Davies had an absolute shocker.  Offered nothing for most of the game and the only times he got the ball he put in the worst grubber I've ever seen and made a number of handling errors.  As Hookism has pointed out his tackle stats are pretty diabolical as well.

Beggars belief

Out of interest Dodgy................ do you think he was worse offensively than anyone else?, perhaps made less yardage than any other Lions back.

With regards to the grubber, it was the right decision and if it had come off there was a try in the offering, under pressure he didn't make proper contact but it doesn't hide the fact that it was a good decision.

Out of interest Dodgy............ who would you have selected at 12?

I would have started Davies at 12 but would consider dropping him for Tuilagi for the next test.  I don't think the grubber was the right decision he had two players outside and even though space was tight it should have gone through the hands.  As for his offensive effort, there wasn't any has everytime he got the ball he fumbled, knocked on or did something ineffectual.

Ahhh so obviously we were watching a different Lions game in a different universe on a different plane then.............. as you didn't see his kick and run which almost led to a potential try and did lead to a pen for us. And you do realise he made more metres with ball in hand than BOD or any of the other backs (apart from Sexton).

The grubber or chip was the only option for two reasons, one because there wasn't enough room for two fluid passes, and two the two opponents would have had to turn back on themselves which in that tight space would have been nye on impossible

According to ESPN thats a WHOLE 12m - which is about half of the worst of the wallabies

Fact is : the lions looked best with ball In hand. They were winning the breakdown and generating penalties. Even a knock on resulting in an Ozzie scrum was an attacking option for them. This was proven in the last minute when, desperate, they ran from deep and almost stole the game.

The problem was Sexton, Halfpenny and BOD kept kicking the ball back to Australia. When you do that, eventually they will score.

Poor game management, and an inability to adapt the game plan to what was happening in real time cost the Lions.

Sexton needed to be replaced by Farrell who has a more dynamic game.

well we kicked back to them every time we had the ball. we had over double the tackles made.

Thats what happens when you polay this dire style of rugby

hmm

I second SecretFly's hmm, even if I don't know to whom it was directed

"The grubber or chip was the only option for two reasons, one because there wasn't enough room for two fluid passes, and two the two opponents would have had to turn back on themselves which in that tight space would have been nye on impossible"

WRONG - It was a risky option - the percentage play would have been for Foxy to retain posession, use his bulk to go intopcontact where he usually makes a few yards and then for the Lions to then recycle and go again; preferably a driving maul.

oh just the chart I saw there for an instant that i didn't quite understand.....

RubyGuby wrote:"The grubber or chip was the only option for two reasons, one because there wasn't enough room for two fluid passes, and two the two opponents would have had to turn back on themselves which in that tight space would have been nye on impossible"

WRONG - It was a risky option - the percentage play would have been for Foxy to retain posession, use his bulk to go intopcontact where he usually makes a few yards and then for the Lions to then recycle and go again; preferably a driving maul.

You are correct, Sir. We needed to use the maul more than we did in general

Can only use the maul when the lineout actually functions though.

And credit to Oz unlike us they learnt, adapted and made sure any potential maul was flooded with bodies before it was set.

GloriousEmpire wrote:

Sexton needed to be replaced by Farrell who has a more dynamic game.

 

You really are a wum master greyghost.

flyhalffactory wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:

flyhalffactory wrote:

Artful_Dodger wrote:
Davies had an absolute shocker.  Offered nothing for most of the game and the only times he got the ball he put in the worst grubber I've ever seen and made a number of handling errors.  As Hookism has pointed out his tackle stats are pretty diabolical as well.

Beggars belief

Out of interest Dodgy................ do you think he was worse offensively than anyone else?, perhaps made less yardage than any other Lions back.

With regards to the grubber, it was the right decision and if it had come off there was a try in the offering, under pressure he didn't make proper contact but it doesn't hide the fact that it was a good decision.

Out of interest Dodgy............ who would you have selected at 12?

I would have started Davies at 12 but would consider dropping him for Tuilagi for the next test.  I don't think the grubber was the right decision he had two players outside and even though space was tight it should have gone through the hands.  As for his offensive effort, there wasn't any has everytime he got the ball he fumbled, knocked on or did something ineffectual.

Ahhh so obviously we were watching a different Lions game in a different universe on a different plane then.............. as you didn't see his kick and run which almost led to a potential try and did lead to a pen for us. And you do realise he made more metres with ball in hand than BOD or any of the other backs (apart from Sexton).

The grubber or chip was the only option for two reasons, one because there wasn't enough room for two fluid passes, and two the two opponents would have had to turn back on themselves which in that tight space would have been nye on impossible

As Ruby said above. Take the ball into the 22 and recycle, whether he did it himself or give it to one of those outside him it was a much better option than the grubber kick especially when its the most poorly executed grubber. You are in the opposition 22 its not like you have to score from the particular phase plenty more will come.

http://www.espn.co.uk/lions-tour-2013/rugby/match/155514.html

Match stats for anyone interested.

Parling, Mako and BOD were animals in defence.

This is what I hate about stats. I had this argument with a mate during the 6 Nations about Parling and his high tackle count. We rewatched the game and picked out every tackle that he made, and on all bar 1 occasion, the ball carrier knocked him backwards and crossed the gainline before Parling dragged him to ground.

In the modern game, the gainline is everything, and Parling very rarely wins the collision in either defence or attack at international level. Great club player and a real grafter for England, but just not physical enough for me as a tight 5 forward.

High tackle stats aren't a good thing! It just means they completely dominated the game.

You don't see Aus and NZ fans on high checking up how many tackles their players make

He certainly isn't the most physical lock Ozzy. The Lions are a touch stuck though as they haven't left themselves with many options at the lineout. Gray can't run a lineout and lacks grunt. Evans has had an unsteady tour but can run a lineout. So what do you do?

Big Jim Hamilton really should have toured instead of Gray.

Mate, I am 100% in agreement that Jim Hamilton should have gone and said so pre tour. He is a top lineout leader, but is also physical with it.

Personally I would go Gray and Alun Wyn Jones in the engine room next week. AWJ can and has called the lineout at international level. In any case, it's not as if our lineout with Parling this week gave us either a great attacking platform or stole lots of opposition ball.

As I said pre tour and have said elsewhere earlier today, we are playing Gatlandball Lite at the moment. The plan is to be direct and go through them, but we've not selected the personnel to do it. I would pick the biggest most physical side we can next week, as tactically we are not going to change, so lets get the right players in there to effect the gameplan.

Pete, you're bang on and I have been banging that drum for a long while and I know you have even before the tour. Get the right guys in to bludgeon them if you're going to try and do that. SOB, Gray, Roberts ,Tuilagi and maybe Faletau (can he play 6?)

37% possession
36% territory
0 linebreaks to 4
half as many defenders beaten
scrum had a 57% success rate on our feed
they ran the ball for 4 times as many metres as us

they all passed the ball twice as much as us and ran it twice as much but kicked the same amount. Based on possession it says a lot about how we used our possession compared to how they used it.

They primarily kept the ball in hand (played rugby) where as we kicked it a lot. Davies and BOD kicked too much and too poorly IMO. They nearly (in Davies' case, he did) kick the ball more times than he ran it.

What a horrible mindset.
What a horrible way to play the game.

Why kick it when you have no possession and you have learned that you have gained very little territory from it over the course of the match anyway.

Feel bad for Mako, outside of the scrum he was outstanding, in the scrum he was very poor.

Have to say I'm finding the Lions tour to be a bit like watching Munster,Ulster or Connacht play.I want them to win but don't really care if they don't,it's a pity but even with the close nature of the Tests this tour and the poor quality of rugby has failed to grab me.

It's ok people, I've found out on twitter why we lost.

Apparently it is the fault of the English forwards, who were political selections.

Everyone else in the team was brilliant!


 

Ozzy3213 wrote:It's ok people, I've found out on twitter why we lost.

Apparently it is the fault of the English forwards, who were political selections.

Everyone else in the team was brilliant!


 

And Ben Youngs

That will be it Ozzy!

asoreleftshoulder wrote:Have to say I'm finding the Lions tour to be a bit like watching Munster,Ulster or Connacht play.I want them to win but don't really care if they don't,it's a pity but even with the close nature of the Tests this tour and the poor quality of rugby has failed to grab me.

Have to say I'm feeling the same way - I class the Lions as my favourite thing in the Rugby world but this tour hasn't enthused me as much as normal.

And it is not just because the Scots are being ignored - the 2009 tour was absolutely incredible and we were ignored for the tests then too!

A lot of it is the rugby being played - 2009 we played like absolute warriors and really took it to the Saffers, this tour we are playing like a sack of crap.

formerly known as Sam wrote:He certainly isn't the most physical lock Ozzy. The Lions are a touch stuck though as they haven't left themselves with many options at the lineout. Gray can't run a lineout and lacks grunt. Evans has had an unsteady tour but can run a lineout. So what do you do?

Big Jim Hamilton really should have toured instead of Gray.

Could someone please explain to me WTF Grunt is and how Gray lacks it? He is a big, powerful, athletic and aggressive lock.

Tut tut Warren Warren Warren when are you going to learn your lesson!

Please stop playing your mates and favourites and please pick the form/fit players that deserve the Lions shirt, Don't get me wrong I like Tommy Bowe but to select him ahead of Cuthbert was simple the wrong call, Bowe needed some game time.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

formerly known as Sam wrote:He certainly isn't the most physical lock Ozzy. The Lions are a touch stuck though as they haven't left themselves with many options at the lineout. Gray can't run a lineout and lacks grunt. Evans has had an unsteady tour but can run a lineout. So what do you do?

Big Jim Hamilton really should have toured instead of Gray.

Could someone please explain to me WTF Grunt is and how Gray lacks it? He is a big, powerful, athletic and aggressive lock.

It's absolute BS in the case of the opinion you are referencing above...!

We lacked it in Parling today, he didnt do anything exceptional. Gray or Evans would have been better selections for the starting team and bench.

1. Corbisiero
2. Youngs
3. A Jones
4. Gray
5. AW Jones
6. O'Brien
7. Tipuric
8. Heaslip
9. Youngs
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Tuilagi
13. O'Driscoll
14. Bowe
15. Hogg

And run it from everywhere.

VictorU3 wrote:Tut tut Warren Warren Warren when are you going to learn your lesson!

Please stop playing your mates and favourites and please pick the form/fit players that deserve the Lions shirt, Don't get me wrong I like Tommy Bowe but to select him ahead of Cuthbert was simple the wrong call, Bowe needed some game time.

Why blame the coach?? He didn't lose scrums or not contain hard one ball, he didnt kick ball away pointlessly either...!

"he didnt kick ball away pointlessly either"

almost everyone on here is suggesting that the players were told to kick kick kick..

I am not sure , however it makes sense.. There is no reason many of these players would just do that . Its not like they dont like trying to play rugby

The coach has to shoulder some of the blame Maes. He picked the side and the tactics, and when it wasn't working out failed to change things.

Why blame anyone? The test is lost, the Series is not. Now we know what the Aussies have in attack, even if they executed poorly, and Deans won't drop O'Connor (though he should move him to wing) from the 10 spot and though he will grow into it, we should have enough to deal with it. Accept that we may have to tweak the plan, make some changes and move on, blame is pretty pointless most of the time and even more so when there's still a job to do

RuggeRadge all you have to look who posted those comments to realise they no substance. Rugby followers know how much "grunt and dog"Gray has now got.

why blame the coach? Because he has been Wee weeing in our ears from day one and still telling us its raining.

On Monday I'll post up a thread on all his lies and broken promises.

picking on form, picking on fitness, everyone getting a chance, all lies. Gatland has been a terrible coach and has defaulted to the Gatlandball style of rugby that has failed to break down Australia in every match Wales have played them in.

drastic changes needed to recover the series.

He selected what turned out to be a poor team and a one dimensional game plan, who else is to blame?

Tips, SOB, Manu/Roberts, Gray and Cuthbert all need to be involved in the next game otherwise its another failed Lions tour.

VictorU3 wrote:Tut tut Warren Warren Warren when are you going to learn your lesson!

Please stop playing your mates and favourites and please pick the form/fit players that deserve the Lions shirt, Don't get me wrong I like Tommy Bowe but to select him ahead of Cuthbert was simple the wrong call, Bowe needed some game time.

Mates and favourites. Wouldn't that include Cuthbert and Faletau Hersh?

Risca Rev wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:Tut tut Warren Warren Warren when are you going to learn your lesson!

Please stop playing your mates and favourites and please pick the form/fit players that deserve the Lions shirt, Don't get me wrong I like Tommy Bowe but to select him ahead of Cuthbert was simple the wrong call, Bowe needed some game time.

Mates and favourites. Wouldn't that include Cuthbert and Faletau Hersh?

I'm not hersh how many more times mate?
Maybe he isn't as close to Cuthbert and Faletau as he is to Bowe and Heaslip but I agree that both Cuthbert and Faletau need to start the 3rd test.

VictorU3 wrote:Tut tut Warren Warren Warren when are you going to learn your lesson!

Please stop playing your mates and favourites and please pick the form/fit players that deserve the Lions shirt, Don't get me wrong I like Tommy Bowe but to select him ahead of Cuthbert was simple the wrong call, Bowe needed some game time.

I felt sorry for Cuthbert being dropped as he wasn't too bad last weekend and must be the best finisher in GB and Ireland currently, but having said that would it have made much difference if it was him rather than Bowe chasing so many aimless kicks? Seems like the Welsh disease of kicking the ball away has spread throughout the team.