If League Wasn't a Sport

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Imagine a world where rugby league had not been invented.

When I see the vastly superior athleticism and spacial awareness of Rugby League converts, it makes me wonder just how different the rugby landscape would be if the game didn't exist at all.

The way someone like SBW revolutionised mid-field play with his outrageous offloading ability. Israel Folau decimated and embarrassed professional rugby players with years of robust defensive reputation.  To a lesser extent, Chris Ashton was such a revolutionary beast for England that the normally conservative view of what a wing did was altered for ever, perhaps opening the eyes to exactly what it was the wingers for other nations had been doing to them for years.

It's clear, that in Australia's case, the top talent is not representing the national side. 

When you consider the kind of dominance Australia has in Rugby League, we can only shiver at the prospect of a world in which rugby league did not exist.

Mr Fishpaste wrote:Stop imagining! The world where there's only union and no league does exist: South Africa. I'd say you average die-hard bok fan would not even be able to name a single league club, and no league player (unless they've also played union). It doesn't even factor into our rugby consciousness. So perhaps this gives insight into what the rugby world-sans-league would look like: 10 man kicking rugby!

There is no league in Ireland, Argentina nor France as well. All these teams can play nice rugby.

If RL wasn't a sport, what sort of mess would be the scrum in RU be by now?

My guess is that it'd be how the Australians want it - a unfussy restart to let the girls play Strictly Come Prancing.

The RU scrum is a thing of beauty in itself.

greytiger wrote:If RL wasn't a sport, what sort of mess would be the scrum in RU be by now?

My guess is that it'd be how the Australians want it - a unfussy restart to let the girls play Strictly Come Prancing.

The RU scrum is a thing of beauty in itself.

Love that one, Grey.

and in other news... the Titans have upset the Storm tonight.

GI and all the other Origin stars weren't playing though. Sort of like those Lions lead-up matches. They get rested before the big one(s).

GunsGerms wrote:

Mr Fishpaste wrote:Stop imagining! The world where there's only union and no league does exist: South Africa. I'd say you average die-hard bok fan would not even be able to name a single league club, and no league player (unless they've also played union). It doesn't even factor into our rugby consciousness. So perhaps this gives insight into what the rugby world-sans-league would look like: 10 man kicking rugby!

There is no league in Ireland, Argentina nor France as well. All these teams can play nice rugby.

there is a small but thriving RL setup in France (over and above the Catalan Dragons). Even in the amateur days of RU though the French RL player was paid less than his Union counterpart.

Isn't RL considered the 'posh' sport in SW France?

greytiger wrote:Isn't RL considered the 'posh' sport in SW France?

It's soccer that's "posh" there

LondonTiger wrote:On a global level both Rugby Union and Rugby League are minority sports. Across the world Rugby 7s is now the pre-eminent version is spreading and growing rather rapidly.

We live in the age of a thousand tv channels, most with commercials. So people's attention span is about 12mns max (the average programme segment length). This is why the appalling 20 20 cricket (playground cricket for grownups) is proving popular.

Given the RWC is the 3rd largest sporting event in the world outside of the FIFA world cup and the Olympics I don't think we're doing that bad.

fa0019 wrote:Given the RWC is the 3rd largest sporting event in the world outside of the FIFA world cup and the Olympics I don't think we're doing that bad.

Well said.

If there was one winger who changed modern thinking on how wingers play it was jonah lomu and not bloody chris ashton!!!

actually I'd prefer if kids today copied Ashton over Lomu... Lomu was a freak of nature... a once in a hundreds years player... Even today compared to his prime he was quicker, and about 2st heavier then his closest rivals like North. You aren't going to learn anything smashing players.

Ashton on form plays very smart rugby, shoulder support running and can see a gap.

Lomu was a gent though. His conduct was superb and most people with his luck with injuries and illness would have packed it in years before he did.

fa0019 wrote:Given the RWC is the 3rd largest sporting event in the world outside of the FIFA world cup and the Olympics I don't think we're doing that bad.

That's the IRB's PR claim. Sadly, as much as I'd like to believe it, they're probably stretching the truth a little.

I think its probably true. 
But the gap between number 2 and number 3 is huge.  I would bet that the RWC could double the number of people attending, the number of teams in the tournament, the number of people watching on tv, and the amount of money brought in and it would still be number 3.

in terms of attendance figures for an international tournament its correct from what I recall.

people should remember rugby was an amateur sport less then 20 years ago. Progress is slow but its progress.

attendance is no where near viewing figures but still the game is an ex. British Empire sport with France, Italy and Argentina. Its not a global game.

Growth will take decades not years but people should look back to the first 3 RWC's and see how far the sport has come... the IRB for all their faults have a lot to be proud of.

Back before the RU/RL split rugby was more popular than soccer in Britain. While I suspect that soccer's relative simplicity would have seen it spread faster around the rest of the world, a unified rugby code (probably with some professionalism) in in the 1st half of the 20th century would have seen rugby become a much bigger sport today.

Defining "3rd biggest" is tough - in terms of total TV viewers the cricket WC is probably ahead of rugby (enough Indians, Pakistanis and Bangladeshis have TVs to skew anything). Just found this though: http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/List_of_sports_attendance_figures#International_matches - Euro 2012 ran the RWC close

greytiger wrote:If RL wasn't a sport, what sort of mess would be the scrum in RU be by now?

My guess is that it'd be how the Australians want it - a unfussy restart to let the girls play Strictly Come Prancing.

The RU scrum is a thing of beauty in itself.

The Lions scrum looked pretty ugly there in the last quarter. Not so much prancing as shafting by the Aussies. 

Most successful league converts are raw athletic talents that play wing or fullback, tuquiri, Robinson, folau, they rely on these skills to play out wide where your undestanding of the game doesn't have to be that good. Basically give them the ball and they will either, dance or power to the try line, these guys are freaks that would be a success in a lot of sports. sbw had the same freakish power of these guys but after a couple of years he mastered centre play, something very hard to do for a league player and by doing so broke into the hardest squad in the world..sbw was on another level, for his creativity, pace and power. Eastmond is one to watch, whilst I worry his size may hold him back from the biggest stages he has mastered being a creative midfield dynamo, something henry Paul, Farrell, Harris and almost all other converts could never do.

Including Farrell in the list of 'could never dos' is a bit unfair. If he has moved to Union aged 23 like SBW he would have become a star of union too. Instead he came aged thirty with knackered knees after playing top level RL for 13 years.

The other names fair enough...

I like Eastmond, but where do you play him in the England backline?

fa0019 wrote:actually I'd prefer if kids today copied Ashton over Lomu... Lomu was a freak of nature... a once in a hundreds years player... Even today compared to his prime he was quicker, and about 2st heavier then his closest rivals like North. You aren't going to learn anything smashing players.

Ashton on form plays very smart rugby, shoulder support running and can see a gap.

Lomu was a gent though. His conduct was superb and most people with his luck with injuries and illness would have packed it in years before he did.

Still a misconception about Lomu. For all his size Lomu had speed and agility to burn. Many of his tries hardly a hand was laid on him. He had more pace and skill than Ashton without the bulk let alone what he could do with it, and far more heart.

Personally I don't like the word freak, because its used as an excuse not to accept the person as a rugby player like the rest of us, not to have to analyse and compare them skill wise with their peers (Oh say no more...he's a freak...no need to discuss) which is all Lomu ever was- an extremely talented and skilled winger with ball in hand.

A couple of posters have already said the same about Folau after dismissing him widely before the test...he's a freak...but is he actually a good rugby player?

It's probably fair to say he is a very good finisher. That second try when he was 30m out with 3, 4 or 5 cover defenders closing in (it seemed) and he somehow negotiated his way to the line with barely a hand laid on him. Like big Jonah - there was the mind blowing power (deceptively so), guile, balance and the killer fend-off.

Full marks to Sexton for getting back up and preventing him from placing it closer to the posts. (JOC missed that conversion too)

fa0019 wrote:If Folau can have that big an impact, you'd wonder why the ARU are not flashing their cheque book at the other stars in the NRL. Imagine just another  folau type on the other wing to go with Beale, O'Connor, Genia, Folau etc?

Folau makes SBW look average. Does anyone remember such a great debut?

Matt Tait vs. Wales in 05?

I remember Cullen's debut and his second match! Of course they were against weaker teams.

NZ would be stronger, even if union was on a n even footing with league down under. Even though we have the equivalent of 5 super 15 squads of professional squads playing overseas. We are probably losing as much or possibly more talent to rugby league in the last few years. The impact is worse because it's young talent. It's not just backs but athletic, big forwards as well, and it's now players with a rugby background. Whether it's the likes of Keebra taking union kids on sports scholorships to league or the 16 NRL clubs taking talent for their under 20 teams. The drain is huge. I'm sure it's a significant issue at the under 20's level. You can't lose half your top talent and some of the back up and it not affect your chances. Possibly a bit overstated, but heck, if you cant rant on an online forum where can you....

Taylorman wrote:

fa0019 wrote:actually I'd prefer if kids today copied Ashton over Lomu... Lomu was a freak of nature... a once in a hundreds years player... Even today compared to his prime he was quicker, and about 2st heavier then his closest rivals like North. You aren't going to learn anything smashing players.

Ashton on form plays very smart rugby, shoulder support running and can see a gap.

Lomu was a gent though. His conduct was superb and most people with his luck with injuries and illness would have packed it in years before he did.

Still a misconception about Lomu. For all his size Lomu had speed and agility to burn. Many of his tries hardly a hand was laid on him. He had more pace and skill than Ashton without the bulk let alone what he could do with it, and far more heart.

Personally I don't like the word freak, because its used as an excuse not to accept the person as a rugby player like the rest of us, not to have to analyse and compare them skill wise with their peers (Oh say no more...he's a freak...no need to discuss) which is all Lomu ever was- an extremely talented and skilled winger with ball in hand.

A couple of posters have already said the same about Folau after dismissing him widely before the test...he's a freak...but is he actually a good rugby player?

Taylorman

There was no disrespect intended.... when described as a freak of nature it is only to suggest that a chap like him shouldn't exist, 20 years on and millions of players later and no player has come close since, not Rokocoko, Tune, Mortlock, Tiquiri, North... no one should be that fast, that strong (and he was very ill for half of his career). In 99 he went through 3 of England's toughest tacklers like they were made of candyfloss (Dillaglio, Leonard & Johnson) .... perhaps only Jason Robinson was as deadly (albeit for different reasons).
He was a once in a hundred years player.. thats how long it will be before we see another Lomu in truth.

He wasn't just a bulldozer thats true, he had a very good step, an amazing handoff and a good offload. Ben Clarke also said when tackled by Lomu in 95 that it was the biggest tackle he ever took...which from the 6'5 18st Lions great is quite a testimony.

All I was suggesting was that chaps like Ashton on form are better for kids to copy and learn from... his lines are excellent and the way he supports players in midfield adds an extra dimension to his play.

IMO kids shouldn't be trying to learn of people with gross natural ability and talent... for these guys its easy as 1 2 3. Only a handful of kids in any country will be able to replicate these sorts of things and rather the rest should be trying to emulate those who are smart players but not necessarily overtly talented. These are the things which will develop better overall players.

Lomu himself was 6'5 and around 20 stone. In all fairness for a winger being that big and that fast was unheard of. Mind you George North and Israel Folau are both 6'4 so wingers are only now starting to catch up on Lomu the great.

All Ashton has is pace. Take that away and he wouldnt be in the top 100 wingers in the world. He is a poor decision maker and tackler. He only scores tries when he has space in front of him to turn the afterburners on. I certainly wouldnt be looking at him as an example of smart wing play.

Shane Horgan is 6'4"  and was terrorising defences long before North or Folau.  If you look at some of the lines and power running that guy did in his prime, which wasn't too far off the time he had to retire actually, I think you see a guy that was as exciting as North. 

Pity again that Ireland was never a side to fully utilise speed, dexterity and power for sustained periods.

GunsGerms wrote:Lomu himself was 6'5 and around 20 stone. In all fairness for a winger being that big and that fast was unheard of. Mind you George North and Israel Folau are both 6'4 so wingers are only now starting to catch up on Lomu the great.

All Ashton has is pace. Take that away and he wouldnt be in the top 100 wingers in the world. He is a poor decision maker and tackler. He only scores tries when he has space in front of him to turn the afterburners on. I certainly wouldnt be looking at him as an example of smart wing play.

I'd say Ashton hasn't "just" got pace, he also has a knack for "following" a break - that's what got him noticed, as it's a fairly rare skill in the NH. Of course, if no-one's making breaks to follow ...

Back in 1996 I had a student job doing pitch-side security at Lancaster Park in Christchurch. Which meant I was standing sideline for the Abs vs Springboks test , and post-match I was doorman for the after-match function room. Guests had been given passes to the after-match function that they hung round their neck, so I was keeping my eyes at midriff level and  waving people through, until someone approached. I looked up to stop him, and realised that Jonah's pass was hanging about a foot higher than anyone else's. And I'm 6ft tall!

Did you let him in, Pete?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Given the RWC is the 3rd largest sporting event in the world outside of the FIFA world cup and the Olympics I don't think we're doing that bad.

That's the IRB's PR claim. Sadly, as much as I'd like to believe it, they're probably stretching the truth a little.

In terms of Attendance its generally the 3rd largest global "sporting event" discounting annual sports leagues, F1 and the Tour de France.

As far as viewing figures go its nowhere near the 3rd biggest, due the limited number of countries watching. Something like 95% of the viewers are from the major IRB nations. Outside them, no one is really watching.

If the split between League and Union had never happened I would have hoped the the pragmatism of the Northern contingent in the managment of the English game would have ensured the English Rugby didn't spend years in the International wilderness.

The snobbery and focus of the RFU selection on a the 'jolly good chap' type of Home County 'Rugger' player from the 'right' school and background for decades has really stiffed Engerlund.

I know it's 'only' the M62 corridor, but that's still a hell of a lot of people. Prior to the split was Yorkshire not the team that stuffed all comers?

TrailApe wrote:If the split between League and Union had never happened I would have hoped the the pragmatism of the Northern contingent in the managment of the English game would have ensured the English Rugby didn't spend years in the International wilderness.

The snobbery and focus of the RFU selection on a the 'jolly good chap' type of Home County 'Rugger' player from the 'right' school and background for decades has really stiffed Engerlund.

I know it's 'only' the M62 corridor, but that's still a hell of a lot of people. Prior to the split was Yorkshire not the team that stuffed all comers?

If you look at the history of the county championship, Yorkshire won it 7 times between 1889 and 1896. They were only interrupted by Lancashire. In fact, right throughout it’s history the Northern teams have won the competition more than any other area of England, around 50 times in total.

England home games were played in Yorkshire as well. That's where all the fans were (more people in Yorkshire than Wales right?).

Just look at the 6 nation result before and after 1895. Marked difference.