POC is out of the tour - What now

http://www.smh.com.au/rugby-union/union-news/oconnell-ruled-out-of-lions-tour-20130624-2orid.html

Nathan Hines for the third test!!!

Massive blow for the Lions. Easily our most talismanic forward & best lock by a distance.
Parling will almost certainly slot in as new pack leader. Will improve the line out but provide less bulk in the scrum.

I'd love to see Launchbury get a well deserved call up.

With 4 locks still available and really only the third test left available for any cover to actually cover, if you get my drift, is there much point calling up a replacement.

Gray and Parling probably in a straight shoot-out tomorrow for the 2nd test starting berth.

LT - it will be Parling and AWJ who start the test.

We know this because Parling has already been withdrawn from the Rebels game (which he was supposed to captain) and it is fairly obvious that in POC's absence, Parling will be the principal lineout caller as he is for England and it's highly likely for Gatland that he regards the set piece as king. The fact that his regular hooker in Tom Youngs will be throwing in to him cements the deal.

The lock bench slot is interesting. Neither Gray nor Evans possesses much by way of alternate positions flexibility so it just comes down to whom the management think is playing best. I would think and hope that it's Gray but I'm assuming nothing whatsoever with Rowntree.

Doesn't this also mean that we need more lock cover? I would think that Ryan Jones, Joe Launchbury or possibly even Hines. I think that everyone's favourite penalty liability, Jim Hamilton will just be too much of a, well, penalty liability. The reason why Hines is an outside bet is his experience and also because he's main lineout caller for Clermont.

Ah, I had not seen that Parling was withdrawn. Heard that POC was out on the radio while driving to work was all.

Wont the Parling/AWJ combo lack a bit of power in the scrums?

yappysnap wrote:Wont the Parling/AWJ combo lack a bit of power in the scrums?

Possibly, but Evans is the only other Lock with a scrummaging reputation, and he has been a long way off top form on this tour.

Parling and Grey? Someone of Grey's size should be able to push well in a scrum surely.

yappysnap wrote:Parling and Grey? Someone of Grey's size should be able to push well in a scrum surely.

You would think so, but never really seems to be the case - perhaps everything is too long, and compact shoving units work better at scrum time?

In fairness grays scrumming has come on a lot over the last 12 months

I'm an ex 2nd rower and at 6'6 I always found it hard playing alongside anyone shorter 6'3/6'4 - always felt kina unbalanced..... helps if you're packing down behind a slightly taller front row (which in turn is sometimes a disadvantage to the whole scrum)

Perhaps Gray who's what 6'8/6'9 has a similar problem

Forget the not picking players from France rubbish and bring in Hines and Sheridan. We may have to put out a weak pack for second test but they should be ready for third test in case we lose the second.

Thought O'Connell was massive on the floor as per usual. We'll lose a lot there. When Parling came on you could see a definitive drop in scrum power too.
I'd still prefer to bring in Gray.

Goosestepper wrote:I'm an ex 2nd rower and at 6'6 I always found it hard playing alongside anyone shorter 6'3/6'4 - always felt kina unbalanced..... helps if you're packing down behind a slightly taller front row (which in turn is sometimes a disadvantage to the whole scrum)

Perhaps Gray who's what 6'8/6'9 has a similar problem

I read that Charteris for Wales struggled to scrummage due to his height (6'10" or something). Apparently due to the mechanics of it all - I think it meant his back was angled downwards which put loads of pressure on his lower back, with his arse in the air. Read that somewhere but not sure how true it is. Players only 3 or 4 inches shorter seem to do OK.

Its a leadership thing I think. Parling has impressed there.

Massive blow for me

I do think Parling is a decent player, but I am not sure he is the right person to start. He is a bench option and can make an impact in the loose and in the lineouts in the later satges of matches. But he can be overpowered if he starts - this is a real concern to me.

I would much prefer to see Gray or Evans start and Parling to remain on the bench. It does look like he will start and I think we will suffer for his lack of physicality.

Think how Eng suffered V Wales and the same could happen again this Sat

It is vitally important to win the gain line battles and stop the Aussies gaining any momentum. You need a certain level of physicality to do this. This is not just size, but also the mental hardness. Parling is a real worker and makes lots of tackles etc, but I don't think he is a gain line stopper in the way POC is. Evans and Gray would do a better job here.

If you do play Parling then I think Croft needs to revert to the bench and some additional physicality brought into no.6. Lydiate or SOB will do.

It's strange how fate works.  Horwill gets to stay (and he's a massive part of Australia's efforts) after doing a hit on a Lions player and nobody seeing nothing 'cept what everybody who ain't a citing official did see! 
O'Connell goes home after having gotten his passport out of the series by playing hard and fair.

All on the same weekend.   Them Roman gods is basterds!

hugehandoff wrote:Massive blow for me

I do think Parling is a decent player, but I am not sure he is the right person to start. He is a bench option and can make an impact in the loose and in the lineouts in the later satges of matches. But he can be overpowered if he starts - this is a real concern to me.

I would much prefer to see Gray or Evans start and Parling to remain on the bench. It does look like he will start and I think we will suffer for his lack of physicality.

Think how Eng suffered V Wales and the same could happen again this Sat

It is vitally important to win the gain line battles and stop the Aussies gaining any momentum. You need a certain level of physicality to do this. This is not just size, but also the mental hardness. Parling is a real worker and makes lots of tackles etc, but I don't think he is a gain line stopper in the way POC is. Evans and Gray would do a better job here.

If you do play Parling then I think Croft needs to revert to the bench and some additional physicality brought into no.6. Lydiate or SOB will do.

To be fair to Parling, he's coped fine against teams who are far more physical than Australia. But i do think Croft will drop to the bench. Never thought i'd be saying this but i think we need a bosher in the centres (Manu or Roberts)

fa0019 wrote:Thought O'Connell was massive on the floor as per usual. We'll lose a lot there. When Parling came on you could see a definitive drop in scrum power too.
I'd still prefer to bring in Gray.

Didn't he come on with a load of other replacements in the scrum? i doubt a drop of scrum power is down to just one person.

Wait and see on Croft. I think the feeling is very much that lineouts are a priority and he has a key role there

lostinwales wrote:Wait and see on Croft. I think the feeling is very much that lineouts are a priority and he has a key role there

don't mind us going more mobile, but we need quick ball so i hope we don't start with phillips.

My only issue with droping Croft is the lineout. We did well and even made a couple of steals no with Croft? I also think with Folau on the pitch we need a cover defender who can mark him.

Otherwise I think O'Brien would be well suited to jumping into the test side... we lacked a ball carrier like him. The lack of front foot ball was quite apparent.

Touch and go.

Massive loss to the Lions is POC. Our strength at the line-out, and extra leadership on the pitch has dipped considerably.

Duty281 wrote:Massive loss to the Lions is POC. Our strength at the line-out, and extra leadership on the pitch has dipped considerably.

It's definitely a big loss, but I'm not sure about the line-out element. Parling is a great lineout jumper and has lots of experience with Youngs and Croft.

thomh wrote:

Duty281 wrote:Massive loss to the Lions is POC. Our strength at the line-out, and extra leadership on the pitch has dipped considerably.

It's definitely a big loss, but I'm not sure about the line-out element. Parling is a great lineout jumper and has lots of experience with Youngs and Croft.

With those three i expect us to make a few more steals.

The Lions now needs a re-Injection of real "fack you!!!" Irish rage.  Call up O'Brien and Bowe.  The next test will be all out war.  The time for shimmying and fancy-foot dancing is gone.  Warpaint time

SecretFly wrote:The Lions now needs a re-Injection of real "fack you!!!" Irish rage.  Call up O'Brien and Bowe.  The next test will be all out war.  The time for shimmying and fancy-foot dancing is gone.  Warpaint time

lol, doesnt that boil over sometimes with a bit of "bite"

Someone forgot to put his muzzle on him..he can't be blamed for that.

SecretFly wrote:The Lions now needs a re-Injection of real "fack you!!!" Irish rage.  Call up O'Brien and Bowe.  The next test will be all out war.  The time for shimmying and fancy-foot dancing is gone.  Warpaint time

Bowe will be in almost certainly.

O'Brien is the interesting one. With O'Connell out there's an argument for adding a bit more power to the pack elsewhere. On the other hand, Youngs/Parling/Croft is an excellent lineout group, and if one of Tuilagi/Roberts comes into midfield then we won't be short of powerful ball carriers.

I think the flankers did a very underrated shift at the weekend. Made a lot of tackles and simply weren't allowed to compete at the breakdown, while Croft won lineout ball. Personally I'd stick with him.

Parling should come in because he is tougher than Gray but Gray will have a big impact off the bench.

I think Croft will have to drop to the bench now if I am honest as we were a bit lightweight in the first test and with Paling for Gray we are now considerably more lightweight. Personally I'd go for SOB as his carrying is something we lacked massively. Add that with the faster service of Youngs and we have some momentum again. I'd put Bowe on the bench and waiting to see how Manu goes tomorrow.

Hopefully Corbs will be fine as we need him bigtime.

ITs a real toss up... O'Brien vs. Croft.

With O'Connell gone our lineout loses strength and also our ruck work. Parling is a different type of player. But I think it would be a mistake to lose both O'Connell and Croft.

O'Brien will give us front foot ball which we badly needed on Saturday. Our backs suffered without anyone really smashing the line and putting the defensive line on the back foot.

The question is which is more important?

If Roberts or Tuilagi came back I would be inclined to keep Croft. I think his cover defence is very important too.

Croft didn't have a bad game, was good in the lineout and had some decent carries. One of the best of all the forwards... it looked though in defence he was shunned to the wings to mark certain players... it looked planned (whereas the rest of the forwards were centred around the middle for ruck work and the big tackling).

For all lydiate's qualities I just don't see how he would improve the side.

Didn't really see much of Croft on Saturday. SOB hopefully will get a chance this weekend.

I've been disappointed with Ian Evans this tour. For me, he has all of the attributes of O'Connell perhaps without the leadership. He's certainly got the physical game, or at least did have this season for Wales. On his 6N form I'd have no problem bringing him in to do the 'enforcer' role in O'Connell's place - he was one of the players of the tournament for Wales. But on his Lions showing thus far I'm not confident that he'd do well. Shame really.

How about SoB at 8, Heaslip did not have a bad game, but both he and Croft can play a bit too loose to have in the same side.

We need Croft for his lineout play and as previoulsy mentioned his speed to cover the Aussie wingers.

People shouldn't be so quick to write Ian Evans off - He was probably the best 2nd row in the 6 Nations and would work well alongside his club and international partner. He hasn't stood out on the tour but fans are being a little naive to rule out this guy who would really take it to them if given the chance.

Heaslip and Croft had the same lineout percentages on Saturday just so everyone is aware. Both are good lineout forwards.

A good lineout operator/captain doesn't take all the ball himself. They have to analyse the markings, the required plays to move off and then call the right play accordingly. Thats what made Matfield a great operator... he was never greedy and fellow jumpers like Spies, Smith & Russouw often picked up a lot of easy lineouts.

Chaps like Croft will be heavily heavily marked. Its no surprise that Heaslip got a lot of calls on the day... good operator and a good decoy.

Take him out though and its open season on Heaslip and Co. Its an option I'm still weighing up myself as to what would be best.... but I still think we'd lose out big time in the lineout without Croft.

We have to get our set piece right and Croft did more than enough to secure a lot of front line ball. Whilst we are blessed to some extent in the back row department whoever you choose you end up losing something else. Players like SOB and Tipuric and Lydiate and among the best players for their country but you gain something and you lose something else. We cannot afford to lose line out ball.

Can we fit Toby's power in somewhere?

I too think the backrow would be more balanced with Faletau but Heaslip was one of our better players on the day so how can you drop him?

RubyGuby wrote:We have to get our set piece right and Croft did more than enough to secure a lot of front line ball. Whilst we are blessed to some extent in the back row department whoever you choose you end up losing something else. Players like SOB and Tipuric and Lydiate and among the best players for their country but you gain something and you lose something else. We cannot afford to lose line out ball.

Can we fit Toby's power in somewhere?

Such nonsense being spoken on this thread. A backrow forward has many roles, of which their ability in the line-out is well down the list. I have alot of time for Parling after the last 6 nations, and as long as AWJ calls the line-out well, we are fine with AWJ, Parling and Heaslip. We should be conservative with our line-out anyways, we are basically a scratch side after-all. Pick Croft vs SOB vs Tipuric for their ability to perform their actual primary backrow duties, not the lineout. As it may, despite me thinking that SOB, Heaslip and Warburton should start on Saturday, I think we well see minimal changes, with Gatland becoming more conservative the closer to a series win we get.

Faletau and Lydiate are also lineout options - I think most backrowers are these days.

Spoiler:

Yeah they are lineout options too but not great ones. Heaslip and Croft are the really good lineout backrows.

I agree with Wolf I must say, lineout play is well down the list and with POC's power gone I think we need a bit more beef in the backrow and I'd take out Croft and put in SOB as he gives us some serious ball carrying which is something else we were lacking on Saturday. 

If Manu comes in to the centre then we may not need SOB's carrying as much and maybe putting in someone like Lydiate would be a good call for his work 10metres either side of the ruck

Griff wrote:Faletau and Lydiate are also lineout options - I think most backrowers are these days.  

Despite his size Lydiate apparently has very poor stats in the lineout. He is exceptional at what he does, and that is tackling. He doesnt do much else. He isnt a general fix all sticky plaster but he is a very useful tool in the right system. In the wrong system or vs the wrong opponents he is every bit as much a so called 'luxury' as a certain other nameless player.

If there is going to be a change in the back row it will be dependent on the perception that there is enough coverage in the lineout to enable you to swap out Croft for, probably, SOB. In my mind their are similarities to the argument over full back, where the choice is having the best kicker around, or relying on very good kicking alternatives to allow you to have a player better at attacking ball in hand.

With POC out our lineout could be vulnerable, AWJ is certainly capable of losing composure there. Whilst I can see where posters are coming from with wanting "more" from their 6 than what they think Croft is offering I tend to take Gatland's conservative approach here as being the best way to beat these guys. Some people seem to want to just throw the ball about to our dangerous backline but I think that might be playing into Aus hands. We have them beaten up front, let's use that to destroy them until we can earn the right to go wide. Its not the time for fancy stuff IMO. If we had the power in the front 5 and guaranteed line out I would then go for Warbs, Tips and Heaslip as we would then dominate the breakdown. It's a tough call but I don't want to lose much valuable set piece ball to those Australians who will be challenging us all over the park.

I don't think we have them beaten up front and without POC (and they do have Horwill still) then I think we could end up losing that battle on Saturday.

The Aussie backline is looking a little weaker I think

Genia-JOC
Lealiliafano-AAC/?
Foleau-Beale-?Cummins?

There's no such thing as a weak Australian backline Pete

I think you will find there is

Genia-JOC
Hooper-Ioane
Foleau-Beale-Phibbs

against the Lions after what 65mins??

If we want decent turnover ball at the breakdown then Lydiate is a must, takes the pressure off the 7 to do the tackling and dirty work so they can focus on poaching. His chopping tackles set players up perfectly to be stolen from, whereas Croft whilst a bit quick just isn't a very good flanker. Also SOB could come in at 6 with Heaslip at 8, and we could look to employ the Irish 'keep the player up' tackling and use our scrum as a weapon

pete (buachaill on eirne) wrote:I don't think we have them beaten up front and without POC (and they do have Horwill still) then I think we could end up losing that battle on Saturday.

The Aussie backline is looking a little weaker I think

Genia-JOC
Lealiliafano-AAC/?
Foleau-Beale-?Cummins?

The only diff from Sat is Ioane and he had his worst game in memory so its not that much weaker. Beale at 10 and JOC at 14/15 may help them... its potentially stronger... but if injuries continue they will suffer.