England should cede from the Lions

Prompted by

Griff wrote:

greytiger wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

greytiger wrote:Whatever are the English doing associating themselves of this pile of cack?
There's an RWC to be won.

Cole should be at home resting/training.

Agree. They did try their best to mess Saturday up for us.

Exactly.
Let the Celtic Lions just get on with it and allow the English just to plod on unloved and alone.

GreyTiger, you don't like the Lions, we get it, you keep telling us over and over and over.  But why bother constantly posting about your dislike for it.  It's really boring.  Start a thread on your dislike by all means, but why try to derail the match thread which is being used by people who like the concept?  At the end of the day they're not going to stop the Lions concept just because Portnoy's got his arse in his hands.

The Celts need a string of successes down under.
The English have to develop their own game in their own way.

Short of ensuring that the team coach is a neutral one, I can't see a way in which England can blend with the Celtic way of playing. So all stakeholders would be better off with a Celtic Lions in the mid-term of the RWC cycle whilst England (like France) just play for their own purposes.

I disagree. Training with different coaches and the ebst players will usually show improvements.

Already I can see things in Tom and Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell and Manu to suggest that already they are improved players compared to where they were at the end of the season.

In the meanwhile Rob Webber, Dave Attwood, Freddie Burns, Kyle Eastmond all got chances to show what they could do, chances they would not have got if we did not have guys in Oz


England have benefitted hugely this summer.

Roger Lewis would back you on that, after all that would be one less mouth being fed a peice of the cake.

I would prefer if we ceded. Or at least it was downgraded in importance for English players. It's nice to see how we do without certain players were depend on but since Lancaster rested players this year there is no reason this couldn't be handled in house. I would get just as much enjoyment out of a Celtic Lions tour as the current one.

The word is secede, gents, cede meaning to yield or surrender. Appreciate that I'm not taking the main thrust of your argument too seriously, but if nobody else does either, you might feel less tempted to write provocative posts.

Agree with LT, England have done well in terms of player development this summer and if the Lions back Youngs over Phillips it may well be an Englishman that is pivotal in helping secure the series.

LondonTiger wrote:I disagree. Training with different coaches and the ebst players will usually show improvements.

Already I can see things in Tom and Ben Youngs, Owen Farrell and Manu to suggest that already they are improved players compared to where they were at the end of the season.

In the meanwhile Rob Webber, Dave Attwood, Freddie Burns, Kyle Eastmond all got chances to show what they could do, chances they would not have got if we did not have guys in Oz


England have benefitted hugely this summer.

I can see a little bit of that argument regarding Owen. But I don't see any change in the progress of the Youngs bros., Manu.

LT wrote:In the meanwhile Rob Webber, Dave Attwood, Freddie Burns, Kyle Eastmond all got chances to show what they could do, chances they would not have got if we did not have guys in Oz

A full English tour in the second year after the RWC seeing mid-week games against the likes of the Brumbies/Blues/Crusaders would be tempting for England, hosts and the media.

Who would be more successful.. a touring England side or a touring Celtic side?

captain carrantuohil wrote:The word is secede, gents, cede meaning to yield or surrender. Appreciate that I'm not taking the main thrust of your argument too seriously, but if nobody else does either, you might feel less tempted to write provocative posts.

You are absolutely right carrant. I had to look it up admittedly, but secede is the better word.

Yeah im with Sam and LT

It has been said from Geech etc than going on a Lions tour can be the equivalent of as much as three years worth of international experience. Thus England have benefitted from having both Youngs, Parling, Manu, Farrell (who desperately needs developing) etc etc on the tour.....

We have also been able to send our developing players on the Argentinian tour, when ordinarily it would have been senior players going. Through this we know we have players challening for 1st team spots in the AI's.

Plus look at the interest the Lions tour still receives. Its still a huge thing...many of my football loving mates watched the game on Saturday and are all speaking about next Saturday.

fa0019 wrote:Who would be more successful.. a touring England side or a touring Celtic side?

They'd probably both lose, so it'd be yet another "who's got the smallest winkle" bunfight

The only reason I would have for enjoying a Celtic Lions would be by being able to take the moral highground over selection decisions. Other than that I would have no connection with the teams so minimal interest in the end result.

I guess that is how some Scottish posters feel

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Who would be more successful.. a touring England side or a touring Celtic side?

They'd probably both lose, so it'd be yet another "who's got the smallest winkle" bunfight

Like Rats fighting over the last crumb on the floor????

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Who would be more successful.. a touring England side or a touring Celtic side?

They'd probably both lose, so it'd be yet another "who's got the smallest winkle" bunfight

---

Well I suppose having additional players joining Scotland does mean we will likely lose our unbeaten run against Australia 

Riskysports wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Who would be more successful.. a touring England side or a touring Celtic side?

They'd probably both lose, so it'd be yet another "who's got the smallest winkle" bunfight

---

Well I suppose having additional players joining Scotland does mean we will likely lose our unbeaten run against Australia 

You'd only get to Australia one tour in three though - hence "probably lose"

LondonTiger wrote:The only reason I would have for enjoying a Celtic Lions would be by being able to take the moral highground over selection decisions. Other than that I would have no connection with the teams so minimal interest in the end result.

I guess that is how some Scottish posters feel

Thing is that's how I feel now. Other than hoping the English players have a good game. Not much different to how I feel about Toulon.

fa0019 wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Who would be more successful.. a touring England side or a touring Celtic side?

They'd probably both lose, so it'd be yet another "who's got the smallest winkle" bunfight

Like Rats fighting over the last crumb on the floor????

I have pet rats and its always the big fat one in white who gets the last crumbs...

Oooooh

kiwi wrote:Pete C (Kiwireddevil)
   V2 Editor

Get your blue censor pencil out. The Saffers are next in line before the storming of the fragile ABs bivouac...

Why isn't there a handbags emoticon?

And where's Biltong for that matter?

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Riskysports wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

fa0019 wrote:Who would be more successful.. a touring England side or a touring Celtic side?

They'd probably both lose, so it'd be yet another "who's got the smallest winkle" bunfight

---

Well I suppose having additional players joining Scotland does mean we will likely lose our unbeaten run against Australia 

You'd only get to Australia one tour in three though - hence "probably lose"

50 / 50 with SA (sometimes), so I would go for lose half the time (Taking a very specific time scale and hoping no-one looks too closely at the stats)

greytiger wrote:Oooooh

kiwi wrote:Pete C (Kiwireddevil)
   V2 Editor

Get your blue censor pencil out. The Saffers are next in line before the storming of the fragile ABs bivouac...

Why isn't there a handbags emoticon?

And where's Biltong for that matter?

There's


Biltong got fed up with the bickering and has decamped

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

greytiger wrote:Oooooh

kiwi wrote:Pete C (Kiwireddevil)
   V2 Editor

Get your blue censor pencil out. The Saffers are next in line before the storming of the fragile ABs bivouac...

Why isn't there a handbags emoticon?

And where's Biltong for that matter?

There's


Biltong got fed up with the bickering and has decamped

That's very sad.
He used to love his bickering and winding up.

I wonder if those who believe the Lions experience helps develop players for international rugby could give some concrete examples of how England have benefitted.

I raised a similar question in a thread about the benefit of Lions tours on the World Cup preparation of the Home Unions:

https://www.606v2.com/t44086-does-a-lions-tour-harm-the-home-unions-world-cup-chances

It's undeniable that players enjoy the honour of touring but I question the assumption that our teams reap any meaningful development dividends from the Lions.

You might grant McGeechan some credit for naming Martin Johnson captain in 1997 but the England man was hardly an unpolished diamond at that point. There are also counterexamples of players who were damaged by the experience. Balshaw was never the same after 2001. Ian Hunter was never injury prone until picking up that shoulder hit in 1993.

You could even looks at players the Lions ignored. Rob Andrew was called up in 1989 but he'd had a poor Five Nations. If Chalmers rather than Paul Dean had dropped out of the tour, there was a strong likelihood Stuart Barnes would have been named instead.

In reality, there's no evidence which shows that England team performances have improved on account of some players going away with the Lions.

The only thing a lions series will potentially give the home unions is belief that they can go toe to toe with the very best.... but that goes both ways (and if you get smashed what good will that do... if 4 combined get beat 30 nil by AB/SA/AUS what chance does ENG, IRE, WAL or SCO on their own have???

Another issue is, unless they can replicate their success with their respected nations then its a pointless venture.... so what if you can win as 4 combined nations.... the Lions do not compete in the RWC.

What happens to Gatland when he gets back to Wales... potentially we may see Gatland dropping Phillips for Youngs for the next match, how will this impact his confidence in his coach? It happened on every tour.

I was brought up as predominately British anyhow when Scotland sang GSTQ before rugby matches (up until 1989 if I recall... 1990 was the first time Flower of Scotland was sung) and the Lions was our just as much our national team (with Eire) as the Scotland rugby team were.... in fact I always wondered how Ireland fans saw the lions when they had to sing/stand to God save the Queen before Lions tests??? It happened up to 93 if I recall correctly???
Scotland rugby has always been a lowlands sport predominately anyhow (much more Anglophile than further North).

Anyhow the SH always say we're 4 nations in 1 but in reality many of us have always seen it as 2 nations split into 4 in RWC's.

fa0019 wrote:The only thing a lions series will potentially give the home unions is belief that they can go toe to toe with the very best....

One test might be the Welsh performances against Southern opposition during their golden period in the seventies, a time when a heavily Welsh-flavoured Lions won two series.

If the Lions helped the Welsh players with their self-belief against these teams, then there ought to have been more wins. There weren't.

If you read this old Gareth Edwards article, it's more likely any benefits went the other way:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/wales/3490258/Failing-to-beat-the-New-Zealand-All-Blacks-with-Wales-still-plays-on-my-mind-Rugby-Union.html

A couple of years later came Wales' short tour of New Zealand and we got thumped in both Tests, a harsh but valuable lesson at the sharp end of international rugby. When myself, Barry and others from that Welsh party returned two years later with the Lions we knew exactly what would be required. We had no intention of being humiliated like that again.

As I said, the Celts need a bit of a leg up to overturn any sort of SH dominance.
And in that I'm not saying or implying that England don't.

But a Celtic Lions based on the Rabo which allows far greater player compare/contrast opportunities is rational.

The same rationale applies to the English.

greytiger wrote:As I said, the Celts need a bit of a leg up to overturn any sort of SH dominance.
And in that I'm not saying or implying that England don't.

But a Celtic Lions based on the Rabo which allows far greater player compare/contrast opportunities is rational.

The same rationale applies to the English.

I think you mean wales ireland and scotland beat SA and Aus fine by ourselves.
I full expect ireland to go to aus and win atleast one game.

Wales are the only team that can win a game the rest of us just dont win enough.

England should cede from the Lions

Then when will we ever have the chance to cheer arm and arm with our brothers and sisters from our islands?  

To be fair, once in 4 years is probably just enough for all of us..........

All (seemingly) but one Doc.
I still contend that a Celtic Lions makes a great deal of sense in so many ways.

Rugby in Scotland is more of an Anglophile game than a Celtic game in reality, dominated by the lowlands.... we sang GSTQ until 1989 at test internationals. Its not very celtic.

Until in 1989 when they introduced the distinctly Anglophobic FoS, fa.

Only because that was already adopted as the unofficial national anthem of Scotland by most other sports national teams. It was a way of establishing our own identity outside of England.... but what remains is that rugby in Scotland is very anglophile in general.

Sorry guys, have I been experiencing a Dallas dream ( a la Bobby Ewing) and Portnoy was never really away for months?

I know I don't come on here that often but I could have sworn some geezer called Grey Tiger had kidnapped him and started to post on his behalf.

Apologies if this has already been explained.

Dallas eh? In this country even the guiltiest of miscreants can be absolved of their crimes before they get fried or popped off by vigilantes.

tigerleghorn wrote:Sorry guys, have I been experiencing a Dallas dream ( a la Bobby Ewing) and Portnoy was never really away for months?

I know I don't come on here that often but I could have sworn some geezer called Grey Tiger had  kidnapped him and started to post on his behalf.

Apologies if this has already been explained.

GT made a polite request for a change of username

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:Sorry guys, have I been experiencing a Dallas dream ( a la Bobby Ewing) and Portnoy was never really away for months?

I know I don't come on here that often but I could have sworn some geezer called Grey Tiger had  kidnapped him and started to post on his behalf.

Apologies if this has already been explained.

GT made a polite request for a change of username

Can I suggest you pluralise the second word in his name? To suggest Portnoy only has one complaint is a little misleading.

Thats just a joke Portnoy. You know its true though.

Who cares what gets said on this topic on any forum, the powers that be wouldn't allow it to happen - with dosh coming in and executives going on "jollys" to the Lions tours what's the incentive for them to change??.  
If any nation wants to got it alone, get a proposal in and lets see what happens.

More importantly we want a win on Saturday.  Move on gents.

Being on this forum and the former BBC version was a real eye opener for me. I always assumed that the general consensus amoungst B&I fans would be that the Lions is a great thing. Surprising the amount of fans from all nations that dont like the idea of it.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:Sorry guys, have I been experiencing a Dallas dream ( a la Bobby Ewing) and Portnoy was never really away for months?

I know I don't come on here that often but I could have sworn some geezer called Grey Tiger had  kidnapped him and started to post on his behalf.

Apologies if this has already been explained.

GT made a polite request for a change of username

On the back of a polite and unexpected proffering from a mod.

I'm not too sure that I understand how the "Naughty step" works on here.

Do I understand this boards protocol correctly? If you break the rules(should we say laws?) you can return with a new "name" and after awhile you may re-use the name that got you banned. If you're a "glamour offender" like GG or the new guy from Tolworth you can come back and re-offend until you cut your own throat.

Just out of interest, how many returns has GG made?

Lions tours did have an impact on some players in the amateur era because it was one of the rare occasions when they trained consistently for rugby without distraction.

Not everyone continued to be so dedicated on their return. Scottish lock Gordon Brown never played as well for his country as he did for the Lions.

Best thing to do is ask a mod via a PM is what I'd suggest tigerleg.

Personally I have always had the same IP address which appears to be the base criterion for accepting new registrations.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Best thing to do is ask a mod via a PM is what I'd suggest tigerleg.

Personally I have always had the same IP address which appears to be the base criterion for accepting new registrations.

Thanks Portnoy, I know I'm throwing a hand grenade in to the room but I'm a big fan of consistency

tigerleghorn wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Best thing to do is ask a mod via a PM is what I'd suggest tigerleg.

Personally I have always had the same IP address which appears to be the base criterion for accepting new registrations.

Thanks Portnoy, I know I'm throwing a hand grenade in to the room but I'm a big fan of consistency

Just as much as I'm chucking one into the very room I'm sitting in tiger.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:

tigerleghorn wrote:

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Best thing to do is ask a mod via a PM is what I'd suggest tigerleg.

Personally I have always had the same IP address which appears to be the base criterion for accepting new registrations.

Thanks Portnoy, I know I'm throwing a hand grenade in to the room but I'm a big fan of consistency

Just as much as I'm chucking one into the very room I'm sitting in tiger.

Nuff said, I'm done with the subject....for now.

Glad you've got your original name back btw

I think there are other questions to be asked about player welfare and numbers of games - or at least, player burnout and how best to prevent. Seems v tricky as it must be dependent on the individual and how much rest they need etc.

I thought Launchbury could have done with a rest and some heavy conditioning work to improve his carrying - but then the mental challenge of playing in Argentina (before we knew they'd just rest everyone) was also probably an invaluable learning curve. Swings and roundabouts but this Lions tour has allowed some players to get a look in and I think that's beneficial.

The Lions is a great bit of fun and should be treated so. I don't mind a limited number of English players going provided they are 100% fit (before and during, if they pick up an injury on tour - send them home) and not in desperate need of R&R. Not sure I see the point of sending players who only appear in the midweek bun-fights tho.

Barney McGrew did it wrote:...I don't mind a limited number of English players going provided they are 100% fit (before and during, if they pick up an injury on tour - send them home) and not in desperate need of R&R...

That's not the deal for the Lions. Nothing like it, in fact. It sounds very much like you don't approve of the current arrangement.

tigerleghorn wrote:I'm not too sure that I understand how the "Naughty step" works on here.

Do I understand this boards protocol correctly? If you break the rules(should we say laws?) you can return with a new "name" and after awhile you may re-use the name that got you banned. If you're a "glamour offender" like GG or the new guy from Tolworth :whistle:you can come back and re-offend until you cut your own throat.

Just out of interest, how many returns has GG made?

Poor old Grey Glorious Ghost Empire tried to make out he was an English poster for a while to indulge his penchant for whale hunting... but his style is rather obvious and he soon got recognised. Now he has slipped back into his old ways of banging on about how poor everyone is compared to his beloved ABs.

Surely by England being in the Lions set-up, English players restrict the mighty Scots from their birthright.

PC - you should be out here in Aus and witness the camaraderie between the fans.

Your article is about taking (in a selfish way*) and not about giving.

*Probably because there are 6 Tigers players on tour.