Saracens thread - 2013/14

by beshocked Wed 26 Jun 2013, 9:20 am

First topic message reminder :

All posters are welcome. As pretty much the only Saracens fan on here (bar the odd cameo appearance from Knackeredknees), comments from others would be appreciated.

Senior squad

Loosehead props: Vunipola,Gill,Barrington,Saunders
Hookers:Brits,George
Tight Head props:Johnston,Stevens,Du Plessis
2nd row: Borthwick,Hargreaves,Kruis,Botha,Sheriff
Flankers:Brown,Fraser,Burger,Wray,Fenton Wells,Melck
No 8s:Joubert,Vunipola

Scrum halves: De Kock, Wigglesworth,Spencer,Baldwin
Fly halves: Farrell,Hodgson,Mordt
Centres:Barrit,Tomkins,Streather,Taylor
Wingers:Ashton,Strettle,Short,Wilson,Tagicakibau
Full Back:Goode,Wyles,Ransom

Rumours:

Marcelo Bosch and Jacques Potgieter expected to sign. Probably Bosch after the rugby championship and Potgieter after his stint in Japan.

HC Pool: Toulouse,Saracens,Connacht,Zebre

Saracens Lions watch: Relieved to see Farrell his playing well now. Hoping Vunipola will start for the Lions - going from 3rd choice to 5th choice wouldn't please him at all! Stevens is there for the mid week matches.

Next competition: JP Morgan Sevens - I expect a strong squad. Probably going to throw in some Sevens specialists like Wyles and Wilson into the mix.

by logansrun38 Wed 31 Jul 2013, 9:07 am

yappysnap - please go and cry elsewhere.

by beshocked Wed 31 Jul 2013, 9:17 am

Sam I hope not.

I wouldn't want O Connor potentially overshadowing Farrell.

Hodgson has been an excellent addition. I would worry if he moved to someone like Saints.....

Signing O Connor as an utility back I could understand.

by maestegmafia Wed 31 Jul 2013, 9:22 am

Be interesting to see how Ashton does in the sevens...! His form for Sarries wasn't so bad last season but he certainly isn't the threat he was considered earlier in his career.

Good call by Sarries to give him a run out.

by beshocked Wed 31 Jul 2013, 9:41 am

I agree Maestegmafia.

6 tries in 13 AP games, 4 tries in the HC in 8 matches. Not too bad for a winger but a lot more is expected of him because of his profile, plus his salary!

Ashton is very much a confidence player. For England he was completely shot of confidence. He defended poorly and didn't back himself. Perfect example vs SA - where he should have backed his pace when there was an opportunity for a try.

On the other hand in the Italy game Ashton was unlucky in my opinion - both Brown and Goode could have created try scoring opportunities for him if they had passed him the ball in two key positions.

His defense technique has been pretty shoddy this season though both for England and Saracens - 4 YCs due to poor tackling technique.

It's interesting that in England's two best performances - NZ and Scotland - Ashton scored each time.

It's a calculated risk giving a high profile player a run out because there is the danger of injury but if it gives Ashton confidence then that's a good thing.

He'll also face a lot more one vs one situations. We all know Ashton is quick but beating men is not something he does as much as other wingers.

by maestegmafia Wed 31 Jul 2013, 9:58 am

In sevens defence and making your tackles is critical. If you are a weak link you wil be constantly targeted.

It will make or break his confidence for the start of the season. I agree with your points above, good try scorer, great positioning in attack, always where you want him, but defence and disciplin are his Achilles heels...!

by beshocked Wed 31 Jul 2013, 10:11 am

Very true maestegmafia. As you say that's perhaps one reason why he's been picked! To test all those things - 1v1 defensively and offensively.

There's also pressure on him - he's the highest profile player in all the squads. He needs to deliver. He has an opportunity to win people over. I just hope he doesn't do the swan dive - funnily enough it's harder to do it at Allianz Park due to the smaller in goal area.

Obviously he's also been picked for sponsors etc and tv too.

Saracens do take this competition quite seriously as well.

by maestegmafia Wed 31 Jul 2013, 11:34 pm

Make or break time in pre season training, it's good pressure to put a player under.

Who else have Sarries got lined up to play at wing?

by ChequeredJersey Thu 01 Aug 2013, 12:28 am

Short is pretty good, Strettle can play though he's lost the spark he had with us, and Wyles covers wing. Nathan Earle is a promising young FB winger

by **George Carlin** Thu 01 Aug 2013, 6:47 am

This is a pivotal season for Ashton in England terms. Previously, there was always the vague threat of young blasters coming into onto the England scene and challenging him for his place, but following the Argentina tour and the international emergence of Wade and Yarde, it has surely now 'happened'.

Ashton's key USP has always been his ability to track phases and run the correct support line at the correct time - everyone knows this. That ability should actually increase with age and experience (a la Cueto). His problem is going to be that if everyone thinks the England midfield lacks creativity, then the management may well expect the wings to balance by being guys like the two mentioned above who can make something out of nothing and step a guy in no space whatsoever.

by beshocked Thu 01 Aug 2013, 8:27 am

maestegmafia wrote:Make or break time in pre season training, it's good pressure to put a player under.

Who else have Sarries got lined up to play at wing?

Saracens have 4 other wingers.

Michael Tagicakibau - younger brother of Salosi. This is his 2nd spell at Saracens re-joining from Bristol where he played one season. In his 1st spell he played 41 times. He played in the 2009-10 AP final for example

James Short - top try scorer in the JP Morgan Sevens. 2010-11 was a breakthrough season for him with an important role in the try of the season and also the winning try in the 2010-11 AP final. Since then he has found it difficult to score, get game time and consistency.

Jack Wilson - former NZ 7s player who was signed from Bay of Plenty under the radar last season. He's been playing in some of the A games and LV matches. I don't know too much about him so not sure if he can make it into the 1st team wing spots.

David Strettle - 8 tries in 18 matches in the AP for 2012-13 season. Scored 8 of those in the last 10 matches of the season. He's been on the fringe of England but since that awful injury against Wales in 2008 he hasn't really looked at ease in an England shirt. Still he showed that some of the spark is still there with a cracking try vs Worcester (he scored a hatrick in 22 minutes).

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ghuN7bclN2w

All bar Strettle are taking part in the 7s.

As chequeredjersey says there are Wyles and Earle but I don't expect them to play there too much.

by beshocked Thu 28 Nov 2013, 10:41 am

As old threads are being brought back from the dead I thought I would join in the fun.

Funny that in my last post I talked about David Strettle. He's carried on his try scoring hot streak in the AP with 6 tries to make him top try scorer for the season so far.

14 tries in 18 AP matches is an excellent return.

Excellent start to the season in the AP but I am still hugely gutted about that 1 point loss to Toulouse in the HC. Saracens must now beat Toulouse on their own patch which will be a very tough task.

Like England centre problems have dogged Saracens. Against Exeter we missed Barritt,Tomkins,Taylor and Wyles with Bosch getting injured in the 60th minute too.

As things stand Sarries and Saints look favourites to contend the AP final but plenty of rugby to play before then.

by Geordie Thu 28 Nov 2013, 11:03 am

Certainly looking that way Beshocked.

Big Question:
Do you think Sarries have benefitted from Farrell seniors departure?

by yappysnap Thu 28 Nov 2013, 11:20 am

Beshocked, do you think Sarries will carry on at this pace or tyre themselves out like last season? It was noticeable that by the end of the season the Sarries team had lost some of their intensity, maybe peaking too soon? I know that's what keeps happening with Quins when we sit at the top of the table for most of the season.

by beshocked Thu 28 Nov 2013, 11:21 am

In attack I would say yes, certainly against the smaller sides we have racked up more tries. Against the better sides though the jury is still out. New pitch and new home certainly helps though too.

There's still a new question:

How do we beat the best sides in Europe?

Our performances and losses vs Saints x 2,Leinster x 2, Clermont x 3, Toulouse and Toulon have been worrying. I know they are all good sides but most of them were "home" losses.

If Sarries have aspirations to be the best side in Europe (looks like they have only this season) they must beat the top teams.

I think we need to improve our attack further.

by yappysnap Thu 28 Nov 2013, 11:23 am

Oh and interesting about Strettle.

When he played for Quins he used to drift in and out of games but could be electric when he got the chance. Sometimes though he'd try too much or not enough. In his last season for Quins he was pretty flat and to me doesn't look like he's ever fulfilled the initial potential that he showed.

What are those tries like that he's scored for you? Did he have to work hard for them or were they just a case of running to the line?

by Geordie Thu 28 Nov 2013, 1:00 pm

I think we need to improve our attack further.

Is this down to personnel or system?

Is Farrell, Tomkins, Barritt good enough...or is the system still holding them back.

THis is a curious echo that is flying about for the national team...over the same players...

by lostinwales Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:07 pm

Borthwick retiring at the end of the season
http://www.bbc.co.uk/sport/0/rugby-union/25142509

by Portnoy's Complaint Thu 28 Nov 2013, 4:41 pm

Good player. 16 years in rubbish clubs will have him inwardly weeping though. Wink

Seriously though, a really sound stalwart of the English game. clap

by Guest Thu 28 Nov 2013, 8:20 pm

I'm always amazed at rugby player's ages in relation to their appearance. Borthwick is only 34. 34!!! I'm 36 and he looks about 10 years older than me! Pro rugby really ages a man.

A very good, solid player. Always covered in blood like a true gladiator! One of the old school in a way. Nice for him to retire on his own terms, as he says in the beeb article.

by yappysnap Thu 28 Nov 2013, 9:39 pm

Maybe his nose will finally heal!

Joking aside he's a quality club player and the league is worse off without him.

by beshocked Fri 29 Nov 2013, 9:28 am

Yappysnap not too much walking over the line actually. He's had to work quite hard but space and opportunities have been made for him too.

Interestingly all 6 of his tries this season were at Allianz Park.

http://www.premiershiprugby.com/matchcentre/fixtures/squads.php?player=4806&includeref=dynamic

Looking at Strettle's try scoring stats over the years it's not that great but in the last season or so he's hit quite a bit of form though that might also be down to Saracens scoring more tries in general.

Geordiefalcon bit of both really. It's no secret that the Sarries backs aren't the paciest or most electric in the world but they are capable of executing decent attacks. Saracens do actually use their back three as well. Something you can't accuse England of doing.

Tomkins seemed incapable of bringing in the back three of England into action whereas for Sarries he does. An example of Tomkins at his most effective was vs Leicester last season at WR where the Sarries back three tore Leicester's defense to shreds in the 2nd half with a 4 try blitz.

Saracens style means that generally they don't attack from their 22 as their gameplan is based upon pressure and territory but Saracens' strong lineout and breakdown skills mean they can create generally a decent attacking platform.

Pacier Sarries backs are coming through but it takes time.

by beshocked Fri 20 Dec 2013, 9:15 am

Just heard who the ref is for Toulouse vs Sarries.

The chances of winning the match, just got much harder....... thumbsdown

by formerly known as Sam Fri 20 Dec 2013, 9:28 am

We've got Nigel Owens reffing Tigers vs Ulster, we're boned. Who've you got?

by beshocked Fri 20 Dec 2013, 9:34 am

Alain Roland.

At least you are at home.

Half French ref - in France. Plus our record with Alain Roland as ref has been poor - to be fair to him, it's not really been because of him we've lost but he's a bad omen.

He reffed the matches when we lost to Toulon and Clermont.

by formerly known as Sam Fri 20 Dec 2013, 9:35 am

Ouch. Rolland is generally very pro the home team. He really didn't help us vs Clermont the other year that's for sure.

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 20 Dec 2013, 9:38 am

That's it lads, get your excuses in early! Wink

by beshocked Fri 20 Dec 2013, 9:39 am

By the way good luck vs Ulster. Hoping both you and us can reach the HC quarter finals and maybe make it further.

I really want to beat Leicester this weekend though!

Ozzy3123 very true. I just look at the daunting challenge of Toulouse away in a game they will be taking deadly seriously get that much harder. To be honest I think if we lose it probably won't be because of Rolland but having him there......

by formerly known as Sam Fri 20 Dec 2013, 11:15 am

I'm just not a fan of Rabo refs reffing Rabo teams in the HEC. There's no bias but there is an inherent advantage as the interpretations differ between leagues quite a bit. As for Rolland he really is a weird ref, he'll excellent one week and diabolical the next.

by Bathite Fri 20 Dec 2013, 11:57 pm

If Connacht can beat Toulouse, it should be easy for sarries superstar squad

by Portnoy's Complaint Sat 21 Dec 2013, 11:35 pm

Well played Sarries. We wuz mullered. No ifs. No buts. clap

And Owen Farrell critics (like me in the past) should shut the feck up. I hope he's not rushed back unnecessarily however from that knock to the head - it's not by looking at him 15mins after the impact, but the days after. No arguments or I'll report you to the matron, MrsP.

by **George Carlin** Mon 23 Dec 2013, 6:01 am

On a Sarries related note, I was delighted to see this piece in the NZ Herald about the Chiefs pre-season prep:
http://www.stuff.co.nz/sport/rugby/super-rugby/9531905/Chiefs-preparing-well-for-the-2014-Super-season

I recognised the name Matt Symons because a friend of mine rowed with him. He was Sarries academy for 12 years I am fairly sure. What an amazing opportunity to start a full season in the mix for the current Super Rugby champions. One for Stuart Lancaster to watch, I would think.

by beshocked Mon 23 Dec 2013, 8:59 am

Thank you portnoy. Very gracious of you.

I don't think Farrell will be rushed back. I certainly hope not too!

Worcester and Gloucester away are the two next matches. Hodgson should start with either Bosch,Goode or Mordt covering the 10 position.

Farrell still has aspects of his game to work upon but those kind of horrendous conditions and up against a fly half like Lamb play to his strengths.

By the way what's happened to Owen Williams? I thought he was your 2nd choice fly half behind Flood.

George Carlin thank you for sharing that news. Very interesting to hear that. According to wiki - the source of all knowledge you are indeed correct - Saracens academy for 12 years.

Has good stats too - 6,7 and 18st and half according to wiki.

Must be highly rated in NZ.

by beshocked Mon 27 Jan 2014, 9:45 am

Good win vs Newcastle.

Nice to see the youngsters and fringe players.

England U20s watch -

Tompkins looked to marshall things in the centres and made some good carries. Showed some excellent strength to set up the 4th try beating at least two tacklers. Not a big guy but deceptively powerful.

Earle - quiet in the first half but in the 2nd half he was very busy. Looks quick, took a great high ball and contributed well.

Itoje - came on late, didn't have much time to lay down a marker.

by Geordie Mon 27 Jan 2014, 9:53 am

I certainly dont want to detract from a good performance from your youngsters....but its not exactly difficult to look impressive after our second half performance though.

Its becoming farcical how bad we are and how lacking we are in any form of attacking play..!

by beshocked Mon 27 Jan 2014, 11:28 am

Geordiefalcon I just think it's so great that so many sides save their worst performances for when they play Saracens.

Thank you! thumbsup

To be honest I think it was down to Saracens actually not kicking the ball away repeatedly, keeping the ball in hand. Plus Saracens have shown a tendency to play better in the 2nd half.

It was nice to see the talented backline actually being utilised in the 2nd half and the forwards generating that momentum.

Watching the first half was so frustating - stop kicking the ball! When the opposition are down to 14 men, you are 6-0 up and are in the opposition 22 you go for the corner! No don't go for goal!

by Geordie Mon 27 Jan 2014, 11:40 am

Ha ha...didnt mean it like that...our performances against many teams are just appalling...in many ways resembling the issues we are discussing about England...we just arent as strong up front (though improving)

Mind Sarries are going to be a force for years judging by what you've got coming through..

by beshocked Mon 27 Jan 2014, 11:48 am

Geordiefalcon don't worry it's nothing personal. Gloucester,Leicester and Connacht fans have all said how poorly they performed vs Saracens. I just appreciate it that all these teams saved their worst performances for us.

A pattern is forming.....

Shame Toulouse couldn't play against us like they did vs Zebre and Racing metro!

Well I hope so but we've got some work to do in the backs - luckily it looks like some less defensive orientated backs like Ransom,Tompkins and Earle are coming through.

I would say watch out for Nick Tompkins in the England U20s. I expect him to do well.

by WELL-PAST-IT Mon 27 Jan 2014, 12:23 pm

Beshocked,

What did you make of Barrington on Saturday, he seemed to handle J & B Du Plessis quite comfortably. I only saw the second half but Sarries looked in the ascendancy in the scrum, against that Sharks front row and with Stevens playing, I was very impressed.

Do you think that Wiggy being released for the game is an indication he is not in SL's plans for next week?

by beshocked Mon 27 Jan 2014, 12:36 pm

Didn't see it unfortunately but Barrington has been playing well this season since being taught a lesson in the scrum vs Saints - doesn't surprise me.

He's probably 2nd choice LH now - improving all the time. Could be yet another promising option at LH if he keeps up his good form.

Very true actually about Wigglesworth though it could have been a gentleman's agreement as Saracens did need four 9s on the weekend.

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