Tactically I do not think gatland has it?

There was a great fear before the test started that we would play gatland ball and there would be no plan b. it seems that is has come to pass!

But what can we do to improve for the next test as if we play the same way I can not see us winning.


For me it would be

Vinapola as an impact sub. He was poor in the scrum and good in the loose, but a proper scrummager in the first 60 mins could have destroyed the Ozzie scrum. He is much much better coming off the bench

Second row. Too safe. Need more go forward grunt. Maybe gray in there or at least on the bench. We can not just rely on set pieces to win the game

Back row. A better performance from wurbaton and we competed well at the break down. but the back row misses an impact runner and Sean o Brian should start somewhere.

9 thought youngs was ok, but him and sexton seemed to have been told to kick too much. Murray good off bench and should start.

Mid field. Just not clicking going forward. Good defence but we need more

Tactics. Gatland a tactics are poor and too defensive. Worst he has not plan b.


I want this to try and focus on improvements and not just be a slagging match on players.

Your thoughts?

The first choice front row for Australia is very strong. They rarely seem to play together these days due to injuries to one or another...but when together they're strong. The idea that a better scrummager would have destroyed them is extremely arrogant. Also Lions only gave away 3 penalties in the scrum. They won 9 in turn. Given the topsy-turvy scrum officiating that IS destroying them.

again the issue with Gatland is centre creativity. It seems to be based on bashing it up and reacting to breaks if they come. Oh and kicking. Lot's of kicking and hoping.

Already disagreed on this one. It was the Lions defence that kept them in this match. Except for the one soft try at 73 odd minutes the Lions shut the Ozzies out time and time again.

On attack the kicking was a little aimless and pointless at times but overall the Lions arent going to out attack the Ozzies. They managed two tries doing it last week and that was against a team in complete disarray with injuries and down to no.3 kickers.

With Oz having less bad luck and likely to be stronger next week a focus on defence is the only chance of winning this series. If they go all out they'll open up more chances for Oz and slacken off in defence.

They simply do not have an attack that will beat Oz. To date, other than the two tries last week- thats been the case. Boring I know but they have to face up to the reality of the situation. Attack wont do it. Defence, focus on the tight exchanges and the breakdowns, just might.

Faletau should come in for his punishing defence.

The longer the game went on the more I came to silently praying for us not to set up fort in our own half but that's exactly what happened. This tactic would be more understandable going into the last five mins leading by more than 7 but with a lead that small and having switched to defensive mode too early and tried to maintain that approach for too long, the final result rings of just desserts. The Aussies played virtually just as badly with the exception of having the offensive nous to barely clinch it.

One last drive into the Aussie half on a mission to come away with at least 3 points (making the margin 9 going into the last 5-10 mins) would have made it a different story but as it stands the Lions gave themselves too much to do. The tragic bit is that the Lions defence was more than up to the task but they tried to rely on it more than appropriate and paid the price. I'd seriously consider having SOB start somewhere in the back row in Sydney just to add that extra element of physicality and go-forward.

His previous efforts with Oz went so well........ I said it coming into the tour, if we play like Wales we will lose, the series should really be over by now. If you're going to play Gatlandball do it right with Roberts and Tuilagi.

Taylorman wrote:Already disagreed on this one. It was the Lions defence that kept them in this match. Except for the one soft try at 73 odd minutes the Lions shut the Ozzies out time and time again.

On attack the kicking was a little aimless and pointless at times but overall the Lions arent going to out attack the Ozzies. They managed two tries doing it last week and that was against a team in complete disarray with injuries and down to no.3 kickers.

With Oz having less bad luck and likely to be stronger next week a focus on defence is the only chance of winning this series. If they go all out they'll open up more chances for Oz and slacken off in defence.

They simply do not have an attack that will beat Oz. To date, other than the two tries last week- thats been the case. Boring I know but they have to face up to the reality of the situation. Attack wont do it. Defence, focus on the tight exchanges and the breakdowns, just might.

Faletau should come in for his punishing defence.

Defence won't win this.  That's just playing into Aussie hands as they have 80 minutes to invent one or two openings that would be enough.  It's like a practice game for them... if Lions sit off them and allow them to work their possession.  

They have to be forced to think defensively more, especially in their own half.  The Lions virtually lost the first game only for Beale's two misses.  They actually lost the second one.  The third, they might be crucified.  It's a long shot but you have to meet fire with fire against Australia in the aggressively attacking game.  The Lions mightn't have the creativity but they still have enough physical punch to be much more in the Aussie's faces.  That's the disappointing one for me...there is so little real grim reaper determination from the Lions.  Thinking too much of learned patterns and calls.  Too tactical not enough hot blood.

The number of similar losses he's suffered with Wales suggests you are right.

Thomond wrote:His previous efforts with Oz went so well........ I said it coming into the tour, if we play like Wales we will lose, the series should really be over by now. If you're going to play Gatlandball do it right with Roberts and Tuilagi.

Trouble is we haven't played like Wales, without Roberts there as a crash ball centre and today without a strong carrying scrum half this was nothing like the Welsh game plan, however I agree Gatland doesn't have an alternative plan

We tried to play the Wels hwith bashing it up the middle, we just haven't had the guys to do it, we did it last week as well, and we didn't exactly thrive. We're trying to go through the phases by making ground with big ball carriers and it isn't working at all. The series should be over.

It wasn't exactly a big ball carrier selection for today

We've been trying to play that game though. We didn't look like we knew a back move besides the Sexton/BOD wrap, crabbed across the pitch or take it up was the name of the game.

Prior to the series I felt if we played kick and chase, physical rugby we'd struggle, as most sides employing that method do against SH sides. I can't really say that the first two tests have done much to change my mind.

My honest view of Gatland is excellent forwards coach but lacking a bit of imagination as a head coach.

If your game plan is to just defend then you are not going to win 2 out of 3 against an AUS side who can get parity upfront and have all the skills in the backs to destroy the very best.

Lydiate tackled well sure but you need a little more then that a this level. His attacking threat is zero. His lineout threat is zero.

Play croft and you have an excellent cover defender, a lineout king and a decent player to offload too.... And he rarely misses tackles.

Play o'brien and you have the best ball carrier in the NH and a decent tackler.

I'm also beginning to think that one player we really miss is chris robshaw. He tackles near as well as lydiate, carries near as well as o'brien and has a lot BMT. All our 6s have 1 great skill but aren't great at others... Robshaw isn't great at anything but he's very very good at everything... Like hill was. I think in hindsight we should have gone with him and he should have been in the test side.

For all his worth warburton just hasn't made his mark. He's a class player but he's been bested in the last 2 games by Australia's 3rd best openside. He hasn't offered anything bar his tackling ability. 

In all the tours I've watched over the years (89 onwards) the captain has had a massive input and performance. Ok BOD in 05 was different but even Thomas in his absence was decent... I just think it was the wrong time for warburton albeit he's been carrying an injury which has surely blighted his performance and fitness. In games like this you need your leaders.. You need them to be making statements for young chaps like north, vunipola, youngs, sexton to follow... Putting in a valiant effort isn't enough.

fa0019 wrote:If your game plan is to just defend then you are not going to win 2 out of 3 against an AUS side who can get parity upfront and have all the skills in the backs to destroy the very best.

Lydiate tackled well sure but you need a little more then that a this level. His attacking threat is zero. His lineout threat is zero.

Play croft and you have an excellent cover defender, a lineout king and a decent player to offload too.... And he rarely misses tackles.

Play o'brien and you have the best ball carrier in the NH and a decent tackler.

I'm also beginning to think that one player we really miss is chris robshaw. He tackles near as well as lydiate, carries near as well as o'brien and has a lot BMT. All our 6s have 1 great skill but aren't great at others... Robshaw isn't great at anything but he's very very good at everything... Like hill was. I think in hindsight we should have gone with him and he should have been in the test side.

For all his worth warburton just hasn't made his mark. He's a class player but he's been bested in the last 2 games by Australia's 3rd best openside. He hasn't offered anything bar his tackling ability. 

In all the tours I've watched over the years (89 onwards) the captain has had a massive input and performance. Ok BOD in 05 was different but even Thomas in his absence was decent... I just think it was the wrong time for warburton albeit he's been carrying an injury which has surely blighted his performance and fitness. In games like this you need your leaders.. You need them to be making statements for young chaps like north, vunipola, youngs, sexton to follow... Putting in a valiant effort isn't enough.

I thought he beat Hooper at the breakdown today

So did I CJ, the only time Hooper really stood out was when Warburton went off.

And I, being a huge Robshaw fan, and a Kelly Brown fan, and liking Tipuric and Ryan Jones and thinking SOB deserved a start, was very willing to look for areas to criticise Warburton. And Lydiate. However, I have to admit that he and Lydiate did their backrow roles excellently and Warburton interacted with the referee well, even if the Lions lacked fire and I thought he could try and instil some of that. Last week, there was no contest at the breakdown for Warburton and Hooper to compared across

I really think that a lot of us called how this would play out with gatland and his selections.

I really wish the people who called us xenophobic and anti this and that would apologise

fa0019 wrote:all the tours I've watched over the years (89 onwards) the captain has had a massive input and performance.

What did Gavin Hastings do in 1993?

I do agree we have a leadership issue, and made precisely that point before the match. We were always going to be short as soon as POC was ruled out and Phillips dropped. As it turns, out Warburton had one of his best games, and we looked more headless after he left the pitch, so I don't think he was our problem.

BOD can play like a berserker when he doesn't take the pitch as captain, so I don't think he can be relied upon to be a steady hand on the tiller in the later stages of matches. AWJ and Heaslip have both been national captains but Heaslip was subbed and AWJ seemed to keep himself to himself after he took a knock. Sexton can apparently inspire those around him but we didn't see much evidence of that today. Who else can we look to as a man to rally the troops, and point everyone in the right direction?

I don't think there are any better leadership options kicking around the squad. It means Gatland has to prepare his teams better for what might occur on the pitch. At the very least, we shouldn't be giving away points so soon after we've scored ourselves.

Thomond wrote:His previous efforts with Oz went so well........ I said it coming into the tour, if we play like Wales we will lose, the series should really be over by now. If you're going to play Gatlandball do it right with Roberts and Tuilagi.

+1  

Absolutely bang on!

There was no penetration in the centre today (same as last week) and if we are going to do the Wales play book (which patently we are) then we simply must have a player that can punch holes in the midfield.
Manu should have been on the pitch today and I am still staggered that he didn't even get on the bench.

Like 2001 and henry...the succes of the tour is conveniently bring placed at the feet of the coach. Not a lot of mention that the side just may not be good enough (which is normally the case for a Lions side).

Taylorman wrote:Like 2001 and henry...the succes of the tour is conveniently bring placed at the feet of the coach. Not a lot of mention that the side just may not be good enough (which is normally the case for a Lions side).

I don't agree the Lions don't have the players, they lost by 1 point without playing well with quite a few changes from last week. I believe the selections were not great and the tactics are Gatland, try to force mistakes and not trying to create. Aus were gifted lots of ball and I thought they never looked like scoring, had the Lions used their bigger forwards it may have allowed the backs some ball.

Henry was/is a better coach than Gatland, Gatland only plays one way since his Wasps days, rely on big players and wear team down.

When it was announced that Gatland was going too be head coach of the Lions. I did not think he was the right man for the job. However seeing that the lions had won all their pool game bar one. I thought i could be wrong here, The Lions might just go on and win this series, but after to days game???

I really want Gatland to go on and win this series. Not only for him self(HIS CV) which will help him get the Abs coaching job when it becomes avalible. But also for the Lions brand it self. I f the Lions do not win this series which will be the first time in 16 years+, especialy with the amount of Talent that the Lions do have, then you would have too questional

I think it sayes alot that his welsh teams can usually take the big games over the line away from home. How often have we heard that wales were unlucky to loose it at the end against SH teams.

We had/have a better pack but apart from the scrum could we tell. As was the problem with ireland why kick the ball back so they can try again.

With tbe style Aus play the longer a game goes on and the tireder people get is the worse time to have them running at you.

He needs to play the last ten minutes camped in their half not ours.

Its all too predictable. Wallabies played a really poor game, yet somehow they managed to win it. They went hard up front vs the Lions, opting for inside passes and rarely going wide. They played the blind side a lot. Despite being turned over time and time again, they still somehow managed to win it, thanks to some decent go forward ball and offloads and finally a lovely delayed pass from JOC to AAC.

Gatland has a tough task now. Does he play a similar team to fist test? or does he play some more attacking players/tactics?

In my mind, Tuilagi or Roberts needs to be at 12 with either Davies or BOD outside them. They need a decent front row in Grant, Youngs and Jones and the potent threat of SOB in the backrow. I would even venture a start for farrell as I think Sexton has looked fairly average. Farrell's combo with youngs could be very effective.

I suspect the 3rd test will be a team very similar to the first test team.

Riskysports wrote:
Vinapola as an impact sub. He was poor in the scrum and good in the loose, but a proper scrummager in the first 60 mins could have destroyed the Ozzie scrum. He is much much better coming off the bench

Many will agree with the sentiment, but the fact that they left Vunipola on for the full 80, after starting Corbisiero ahead of him for technical reasons last week, indicates that they simply don't think that much of Grant, whether or not that's fair. Props don't generally stay on for 80 even when playing well.

thomh wrote:

Riskysports wrote:
Vinapola as an impact sub. He was poor in the scrum and good in the loose, but a proper scrummager in the first 60 mins could have destroyed the Ozzie scrum. He is much much better coming off the bench

Many will agree with the sentiment, but the fact that they left Vunipola on for the full 80, after starting Corbisiero ahead of him for technical reasons last week, indicates that they simply don't think that much of Grant, whether or not that's fair. Props don't generally stay on for 80 even when playing well.

And that is very disappointing really, because he is a fantastic player. Sure I have bias by fact I like Scotland, but I thought Corbisero played very well last week as a call up to tour. It's a shame that Grant would not be allowed a similar chance off the bench, especially when Vunipola was so buggered at the end.

Lets put to rest this being on gatlands cv for the ab role. Why would the all blacks of all teams want gatland? He would ruin the AB way and I can't imagine him getting the job regardless of lions results. He should be England coach. He could win a worldcup with them  

England are trying to play like New Zealand these days (pragmatic and heavy when they need to be, loose and rapid when they spot weakness)...so Gatland has missed the boat on that one too

SecretFly wrote:England are trying to play like New Zealand these days (pragmatic and heavy when they need to be, loose and rapid when they spot weakness)...so Gatland has missed the boat on that one too

Try, try and try again. A bit hit miss and miss at the moment

Ah not as bad as that Hammer. No, Lancaster has a tasty overview...I think it'll be humming more fluidly by WC time.

Gatland needs to find some attacking smarts. The up and under and lateral ball shuffling didn't work with Wales, it doesn't work for Ireland, it doesn't work even for South Africa and it won't work with the Lions.

In game 2 they were relying entirely on scrum penalties and Australian defensive mistakes. Austraila had tightened up from game 1 and without a backline in disarray, the Lions looked naive and threatless.

That makes you 100% correct now Glorious.

 

Riskysports wrote:I really think that a lot of us called how this would play out with gatland and his selections.

I really wish the people who called us xenophobic and anti this and that would apologise

We've played one game and lost one game... Is there any chance you could give Australia credit for being a fantastic team with an envious never-say-die attitude? You were and still are xenophobic towards some players just because they're Welsh. This chip some of you scots carry around is quite amusing.
Also, Gatland's CV would suggest that he has got it spot on I think!

Classic. i disagree with gatlands tactics and i am anti Welsh

u know he is kiwi right

this made me.laugh

Risky, pls don't feed the troll - its all part of a chippy-Scot anti-Welsh conspiracy, don't you know! And as for posting your opinions/feelings on v2, just don't - they're simply not welcome and you're upsetting some of the other posters

Ladies and Gentlemen, I present to you; "Irony"

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You were and still are xenophobic towards some players just because they're Welsh. This chip some of you scots carry around is quite amusing.
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