Lions team announced - AWJ captain & BOD dropped

First topic message reminder :

Given the whole Horwill incident that adds another interesting edge to Saturdays game!

Gatland names 10 Welshman in his starting XV.
And Richie Gray becomes this weeks token Scot...

1. Corbisiero,
2. Hibbard,
3. A Jones,
4. A W Jones (c),
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. O'Brien,
8. Faletau

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davis
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

Bench - T Youngs, Vunipola, Cole, Gray, Tipuric, Murray, Farrell, Tuilagi.

[quote="nathan"]

Redrage wrote:

when did anyone say he picked parling becuase AWJ can't captain and call a lineout?

That is exactly the argument you were using to justify the call.

I dont really get this moaning about "Gatland ball". Do we have the players in NH to play another type of rugby well? Maybe in a year or two, but just because BOD is dropped doesnt mean our brilliant attack will be nullified. We made ZERO linebreaks last week so 'Gatland ball' is better than 'no ball' I guess. Im not saying BOD was to blame or that I would drop him but its not the biggest mistake ever. I guess he wants to play Roberts cos he our only IC so its a shootout between Davies BOD and Tuilagi where theres not much in it but BOD would be the worst ball carrier so...unlucky I guess.
Would have maybe liked to see Tips on and move O'Brien to 6, but no real issue.
Why do people think Croft has been mistreated? Because he has been dropped, so what?
I think Murray has been the only scrum half to play well but I suppose nobody expected him to start but I would have picked him.
Only selection I dont get is Hibbard over T Youngs. Hibbs is a good player but Youngs has been terrific and we have 2 good scrummaging props, its not like Youngs is terrible either.

SOB got the better of McCaw in the first two tests in NZ but it was ultimately fruitless. The concern with SOB is he gives away penalties. My only other issue is that if he is balls deep in every ruck he won't be used to carry effectively. We will see

The Bachelor wrote:I'm glad Faletau gets a chance. Quick question to Irish fans - in your games vs NZ last year wasn't SOB really good on the floor? I seem to remember him excelling in at least one of the tests.

Yeah he was outstanding in the first two tests, outplaying McCaw on the deck...best not mention the 3rd test though....

Gatland has made some big calls, if it works, he is a hero...if it doesnt...

Forget BOD, the two most important players on the pitch will be Hibbard and Parling

Gatland is going for bust, if Parling and Hibbard can get lineout ball from the tail (without a backrow option :/ I would have gone with Tipuric for this alone) and dominate the scrum, then the Lions will win.

JD2 still holds the best performance at centre on tour award and is back in his normal position.

A few tough calls (Hibbard over Youngs, SOB over Tips) but apart from that, I think Gatland has make the right calls - despite being vilified in the media for dropping BOD.


Phillips to score the winning try  

Thoroughly underwhelmed by that selection.

I don't think I've ever been less disappointed to be missing a Lions match.

The Bachelor,

Indeed, SOB outplayed McCaw in the first two tests. The less said about the third test the better. Problem is he hasn't come close to this level of play since and it isn't really his natural game. If the Lions want that sort of player they should have picked Tipuric.

Redrage wrote:

nathan wrote:

Redrage wrote:

when did anyone say he picked parling becuase AWJ can't captain and call a lineout?

That is exactly the argument you were using to justify the call.  

No it's not, i said Parling was chosen to give AWJ one less job, nowhere did i say AWJ couldn't both captain and call a lineout.

Gatlandball should be GatlandYawnBall

Gats seemed proud that he is the 1st coach in 15 years to drop BOD.

 Izzzzz it 'cos weeeez Welsh

Pretty disappointed with this squad if I'm honet. It appears Gatland has run out of ideas, and is panicking, so he's reverted back to what he knows.

One of my main gripes with this tour is that we haven't really had a chance to see what wonderful combinations could have been made between players from the 4 different nations. Isn't that what the Lions is about?

In 2009, we had the BOD-Roberts centre combination, which was a thing of absolute beauty. We also had the Croft-Wallace-Heaslip backrow, which again was so neatly balanced.

This tour, I don't think Gatland has used the mid-week games to full effect, and we haven't really experimented to unearth these exciting combinations. I woud have loved to have seen a Davies-Tuilagi, or Tuilagi-Roberts combo. We haven't seen Hogg at fullback really either, and Gatland hasn't worked out how to use Croft. It's all just a bit.....deflating.

nathan wrote:

Redrage wrote:

nathan wrote:

Redrage wrote:

when did anyone say he picked parling becuase AWJ can't captain and call a lineout?

That is exactly the argument you were using to justify the call.  

No it's not, i said Parling was chosen to give AWJ one less job, nowhere did i say AWJ couldn't both captain and call a lineout.

You are splitting hairs, it was a weak argument for his selection and it is not one that Gatland used despite your assertion that he did.

Thanks lads - Lets hope he can reproduce that sort of performance (especially if Lydiate and co start chopping Oz down behind the gain line).

didnt bod get dropped on the New Zealand tour   

bluestonevedder wrote:Pretty disappointed with this squad if I'm honet. It appears Gatland has run out of ideas, and is panicking, so he's reverted back to what he knows.

One of my main gripes with this tour is that we haven't really had a chance to see what wonderful combinations could have been made between players from the 4 different nations. Isn't that what the Lions is about?

In 2009, we had the BOD-Roberts centre combination, which was a thing of absolute beauty. We also had the Croft-Wallace-Heaslip backrow, which again was so neatly balanced.

This tour, I don't think Gatland has used the mid-week games to full effect, and we haven't really experimented to unearth these exciting combinations. I woud have loved to have seen a Davies-Tuilagi, or Tuilagi-Roberts combo. We haven't seen Hogg at fullback really either, and Gatland hasn't worked out how to use Croft. It's all just a bit.....deflating.

Bluestone - Injuries have handicapped Gatland from developing many of these partnerships - he has ended up having to protect his battered squad to a large extent. The vitriol being levelled at him is amazing considering it's one all and apart from Parling the 3rd test team looks as strong as it could be.

VictorU3 wrote:
Gats seemed proud that he is the 1st coach in 15 years to drop BOD.

He did, just like he relished not picking Robshaw. He was never going to allow BOD to steal his thunder.

If we win the series he'll be strutting around like a peacock, praising his golden boys Warbs, AWJ, 1/2Penny and Lydiate. If we loose he'll be a duck with water on his back.

Either way he goes back to Wales having gained his own players valuable experience, with his own notoriety boosted as the man who dropped BOD and left out the reigning England captain.

 English fans on another thread are dropping Robshaw from their starting XV's so why is Gatland the main vehicle of everyone's roth after he's sitting 1-1 in a Lions series with an injury ravaged squad. The anwer is of course quite simple as usual

Redrage wrote:

nathan wrote:

Redrage wrote:

nathan wrote:

Redrage wrote:

when did anyone say he picked parling becuase AWJ can't captain and call a lineout?

That is exactly the argument you were using to justify the call.  

No it's not, i said Parling was chosen to give AWJ one less job, nowhere did i say AWJ couldn't both captain and call a lineout.

You are splitting hairs, it was a weak argument for his selection and it is not one that Gatland used despite your assertion that he did.  

No i'm not, i said exactly what i said. I said Gatland gave a reason for his selection and that was to give AWJ one less job. How are you not getting this?

RubyGuby wrote: English fans on another thread are dropping Robshaw from their starting XV's so why is Gatland the main vehicle of everyone's roth after he's sitting 1-1 in a Lions series with an injury ravaged squad. The anwer is of course quite simple as usual

are the lions still injury ravaged? I would of thought australia were, but not us

And there was me thinking Gatland's priority was winning a Test series. Turns out his real motivation was to get one over the Irish and snub O'Driscoll and Robshaw. How mean of him to select O'Driscoll for the first two Tests when his plan all along was to drop him for the third!

I've got to be honest I don't really care anymore if we win we win, its been a poor Lions tour due to the rugby on show and the lack of quality opposition for the midweek games, not a patch on 2009 roll on 2017.

The Gatland track record against SH sides would suggest that logic demands a different approach to tactics. He has been unable to adapt and has resorted to the players he knows best. The Lions still have brand new combos in the forwards but are more settled in the backs.

Gatland is though a lucky coach - I remember his wasps days and the interception tries that got them out of jail. We have a NH ref for this one who will make a difference but that Oz backline will score tries and with ponderous Phillips, Sexton and Roberts need very big games.
Gatland must thank his lucky stars the Lions are not in SA or NZ.

VictorU3 wrote:I've got to be honest I don't really care anymore if we win we win, its been a poor Lions tour due to the rugby on show and the lack of quality opposition for the midweek games, not a patch on 2009 roll on 2017.

The rugby hasn't been that bad, the first test was good. Second not so, lets hope the thirst is going to be. I doubt it though based on the team selection.

Nathan - what would your team be and who are you disappointed with in the 3rd test XV apart from Parling.

RubyGuby wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Pretty disappointed with this squad if I'm honet. It appears Gatland has run out of ideas, and is panicking, so he's reverted back to what he knows.

One of my main gripes with this tour is that we haven't really had a chance to see what wonderful combinations could have been made between players from the 4 different nations. Isn't that what the Lions is about?

In 2009, we had the BOD-Roberts centre combination, which was a thing of absolute beauty. We also had the Croft-Wallace-Heaslip backrow, which again was so neatly balanced.

This tour, I don't think Gatland has used the mid-week games to full effect, and we haven't really experimented to unearth these exciting combinations. I woud have loved to have seen a Davies-Tuilagi, or Tuilagi-Roberts combo. We haven't seen Hogg at fullback really either, and Gatland hasn't worked out how to use Croft. It's all just a bit.....deflating.

Bluestone - Injuries have handicapped Gatland from developing many of these partnerships - he has ended up having to protect his battered squad to a large extent. The vitriol being levelled at him is amazing considering it's one all and apart from Parling the 3rd test team looks as strong as it could be.

I really don't think the injuries were that hampering to be honest Ruby, and I'm not spitting vitriol at him. Like I said, it is just deflating.

Don't get me wrong, i'm not taking anything away from a lot of the Welsh boys who have made the test team by any stretch of the imagination. It's just that I think there were more exiting partnerships to have been discovered, which now won't be for another 4 years at least.

Its as good a team as we've started with so far, biggest concern for me is either Gray or Evans would have been stronger at lock and I would have liked to see Croft at 6 for lineout and leadership reasons with Tipuric at 7 as the only fit fetcher at the breakdown.
I would also have liked to see Cole start as a fresher option and used A Jones and Grant as the more powerfull Props to make the weight for T Youngs in the last 30.

2ndtimeround wrote:Its as good a team as we've started with so far, biggest concern for me is either Gray or Evans would have been stronger at lock and I would have liked to see Croft at 6 for lineout and leadership reasons with Tipuric at 7 as the only fit fetcher at the breakdown.
I would also have liked to see Cole start as a fresher option and used A Jones and Grant as the more powerfull Props to make the weight for T Youngs in the last 30.

Good Post - Agreed  

The centre partnership of Davies and BOD was ineffectual in attack. BOD did defend well but offered very little in attack. Davies was also very poor.

At least one of them warranted dropping. Gatland favoured Davies.

The lack of an effective centre partnership was part of the reason the Lions lost.

The attack of the Lions in general was ineffective with very few metres made, only a very few defenders beaten. No line breaks.

The decision making in general was poor too in my opinion.

Well I can't speak for anyone else Ruby but he's the vehicle of my roth because he's picked too many welshman, including a dingbat captain who can barely string a coherent sentence together and hasn't played a decent game since 2011.

He repeadedly overhypes the one dimensional water carrier that is Dan Lydiate and overweight babyfaced lump Jon Davies who can't tackle and can only pass in one direction.

He's now picked said babyface lump and the out of sorts Roberts, with fellow fat overhyped babyface Tuilagi on the bench ahead of the greatest centre of our generation, and only back who can actually defend, on what should have been a glorious Lions swansong.

Other than that the jobs a good'un.

I actually quite like this team, but overall I believe Gatland has made a fine mess of things. Let's be honest this is not a vintage Aussie team and the rugby they have played so far supports this. If we lose this series it will be a real missed opportunity.

We have missed out on the advantages of continuity as the selection changes come and go. Whilst injuries cannot be accounted for there are have too many other selections smacking of indecision.

We have paid the price for not selecting a 2nd inside centre and we should not have had to coble a midfield pairing like we had to in the 2nd test.

Having said all that it is time to support the team and pray for a series victory. The plus points are:
- front row is stronger in scrummaging terms and could force some penalties
- SOB and Faletau are fine players and should go well
- Phillips is rested and can really have a proper go. I expect a big performance which will restore his reputation.
- Roberts and Davis are a proven mid-field pairing and Davis entirely justifies his selection ahead of BOD, but it is a close call. I like the option of having Tuilagi on the bench as it certainly adds significant firepower if needed.
- I like having Gray on the bench and just hope that Gats gets him on!

My main concern is the combination of Youngs and Vunipola coming on together and leaking penalties in the scrum. At least if Gray is packing down with AWJ they will have some power behind them.

My other concern is the lineout and of course we need Hibbard and the lineout to function well.

Let us do play the game the right way. That means in the Aussie half. If we get dragged into a 7's style open affair we will lose. With the pack selected we can pressure them up front but we really need to kick and chase well and then unleash the power backs and good off-loading in their half. Play it in the right areas. We need an effective maul to suck them in and a bit of structure to the game. We can and should get a win and then the injustice of Horwill won't matter.

Come on the Lions.

rodders +1

The fact is the Lions might scrape home against a depleted Aussie team, that is nothing to be proud of.

No offence, Rodders, but the greatest centre of our generation hasn't even been the best centre on tour.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:No offence, Rodders, but the greatest centre of our generation hasn't even been the best centre on tour.

Nick de Luca?

[quote="nathan"]

Redrage wrote:

No i'm not, i said exactly what i said. I said Gatland gave a reason for his selection and that was to give AWJ one less job. How are you not getting this?

Gatland NEVER gave that as a reason. How are YOU not getting this?

Well, Garland has panicked and made selections purely on what he knows best, size.

Dropping one of the few leaders in the team for Roberts, who hasn't played in weeks and wasn't even in good form before he got injured. Putting Tipuric on the bench and almost sacrificing the breakdown just to get more size in the starting backrow. Dropping Youngs who has been a revelation on tour in favour of Hibbard, whose throwing has been beyond poor for much of it. It all smacks of no confidence and panic.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:No offence, Rodders, but the greatest centre of our generation hasn't even been the best centre on tour.

Nick de Luca?

 

I just hope Roberts is fit as it looked a bad injury and he has only had 3 weeks of recovery.. Thought BOD is unlucky as even though he wasn't at his best last week he played better than Davies who missed 3 tackles..
I always though BOD and Tulagi would have been a good test partnership..

Tom Youngs is unlucky as he has played well.. I hope Hibbert's throwing holds up..
Great to see Falatau playing but probably would have had Croft at 6, as Lydiate offers no attacking threat.. With Croft in the back row this would mean a more Bulky 2nd row (Evens or Gray) instead of Parling..
Murray and Youngs unlucky not to get he start over an unfit in my opinion Mike Phillips who was poor in the first test..

I love Adam Jones but he is a bit of a one trick pony.. as he offers nothing around the park.. with Hibbert and Corbs back in the front row maybe Cole's all round game may of benefited the lions in a Match they have to win with Jones coming on in the last 20 mins to shore up the set piece..

Very good, Asbo!

I agree Cole should have started with Jones on the bench, but hey that would have been harsh on a mate!

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:No offence, Rodders, but the greatest centre of our generation hasn't even been the best centre on tour.

Really? Who has?

Stats say he is level on tries with Davies, despite playing less games. Defence wise there is no comparison.

There has been a sponsor driven hype job to justify Gatlands selection prior to each game. It happened with the first test with Warbs and now we see it again with Davies who has been shambolic in the test series so far.

Tuilagi has impressed more than Davies, in fact he and BOD would have been the form picks.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:No offence, Rodders, but the greatest centre of our generation hasn't even been the best centre on tour.

Who was?

I've already posted this:

Has Jonathan Davies covered himself in glory in the first two Tests? Before you answer that, ask yourself how O'Driscoll would have fared if he'd been asked to play inside centre.

As for how Davies has performed at outside centre on tour, O'Driscoll himself has been praising him. I don't see how selecting the best-performing outside centre at outside centre is a bad call.

And I'll add that O'Driscoll has indeed been one of the best players in the world in the last decade or so; but that O'Driscoll isn't touring.

 Nice post HughandHandoff

BOD being dropped makes it clear that Gatland believes that he was responsible for the lack of midfield penetration. Lets forget the tactics which had Sexton kick all day long, or Davies inability to find a pass or indeed catch the ball for a while. This doesn't add up.

Looking at it as unemotionally as possible, Davies has been the best centre on the tour prior to the test matches, no doubt about it. But BOD is a test match animal, and though below his best, performed better than Davies. When the pressure was on in the last five minutes of a Lions test which could have made these lads legends, Davies switched off, got caught ball watching and was flat footed. He unquestionably cost the try. It may have come in the next passage of play through weight of unrelenting attacking, but Davies is massively at fault nonetheless. There is a world of different between second string, second rate Super 15 sides and the Aussies. Davies hasn't stepped up and the stats don't lie- BOD below his best has outperformed Davies. If he can pull out a performance like he did against 2nd XV sides in the warmups then he'll justify his selection. But he is under serious, serious pressure. When Welsh pundits are saying its a bad decision you know something is up.

This is a classic Kidney selection policy- one high profile decision that shows he has 'balls' and not afraid to make big decisions to hide the glaring problems in the rest of the team. As much as I am disappointed for BOD, I think Davies had the ability to setup. The front five is where any game is won and lost and this is a debacle. A hooker who has had a poor tour and can't throw. One second row who is lightweight and offers little in any respect. A captain who offers no leadership, no inspiration and flatters to deceive throughout his career. AWJ isn't in the same league as POC or Horwell. Not even close. And a backrow without a ball winner. If we don't have the ball SOB won't be able to carry. Lydiate is reductive and offers little. All he offers is tackling, and two key missed tackles in the last test suggests he isn't doing that job effectively enough. The Aussies have our number. Gatland has not learnt any lessons throughout this tour.

Luckless you've probably missed the fact that O'Driscoll and Davies had been switching positions and that Davies missed several tackles in the 13channel including the one for the try.......

Davies has had one good performance in the tour.

Test matches count only in lions series. You can't compare a test match vs. Combined countries into who has been the best.

1 is against the 3rd best side in the world..... the other is against semi-pro club players. Slightly different.

rodders wrote:Luckless you've probably missed the fact that O'Driscoll and Davies had been switching positions and that Davies missed several tackles in the 13channel including the one for the try.......

Davies has had one good performance in the tour.

Thats one more than some other players selected to start on Saturday!  

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And I'll add that O'Driscoll has indeed been one of the best players in the world in the last decade or so; but that O'Driscoll isn't touring.

No just answer the question. Given that Davies and BOD haven't played the same number of games...and BOD had played fewer games but both tough tests, who was the better centre when it mattered during the tests?

Davies is no Tuilagi or Roberts. What did O'Driscoll have to work with? Davies wasn't even a D'arcy in the tests. Best centre in the tests was O'Driscoll. The games were tight, if you're not attacking you have to defend. No attacking platform - you defend - like Gatland wanted. Who did by far more of that in each test?

Finally, we get to see plan A, without Roberts on the pitch Gatland and Howley(attack Coach!!) have had no clear plan. This selection has not been done in panic as some suggest but rather its been with great relief that they can do what they always planned to do, there wasn't another inside centre in the original selection because they only ever planned for Roberts to play the tests.

I think BOD has been unlucky, particularrly not to be on the bench, although I like Tuilagi if Davies gets injured then we will have two people who have never played together in the centre of our defence and I have no clue how our two crash vball centres will work as a team ... I don't expect Gatland has either!  

However, overall I think this is a good role of the dice although I am a bit surprised that Youngs isn't starting as hooker as he has been very good in the first tests and I am also surprised Evans is not involved.

There has been a lot said about all those close wins Australia have had over Wales, but those have never been about Australia being better players man for man (except Genia) its all been about failure to close the game out and if Wales had had a decent 10 and a bit more composure they would have won a share and probably a 'lions' share of those matches. So, considering that and looking at the man for man match ups in the last two six nations I have always thought the Lions team most likely to succeed would be mainly Welsh with Sexton, BOD, POC and a powerful loosehead thrown in. Thats not quite what we are getting, and loosing Warbs is a huge minus point, but its close enough for me to feel good about this selection