Lions team announced - AWJ captain & BOD dropped

First topic message reminder :

Given the whole Horwill incident that adds another interesting edge to Saturdays game!

Gatland names 10 Welshman in his starting XV.
And Richie Gray becomes this weeks token Scot...

1. Corbisiero,
2. Hibbard,
3. A Jones,
4. A W Jones (c),
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. O'Brien,
8. Faletau

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davis
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

Bench - T Youngs, Vunipola, Cole, Gray, Tipuric, Murray, Farrell, Tuilagi.

I don't know how Davies was kept, I can see dropping BOD but Davies was at fault for the try and  screwed up one of their best attacking chances. Would have gone Roberts and BOD of those available.

BOD will get the attention but I'm probably more annoyed about Heaslip to be honest he has had a pretty good tour.



BOD and Davies couldn't play together that much was evident

http://balls.ie/rugby/tale-of-the-tape-breaking-down-adam-ashley-coopers-second-test-try/

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:And there was me thinking Gatland's priority was winning a Test series. Turns out his real motivation was to get one over the Irish and snub O'Driscoll and Robshaw. How mean of him to select O'Driscoll for the first two Tests when his plan all along was to drop him for the third!

Just goes to show how little we know about Rugby. 

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:Looking at it as unemotionally as possible, Davies has been the best centre on the tour prior to the test matches, no doubt about it. But BOD is a test match animal, and though below his best, performed better than Davies. When the pressure was on in the last five minutes of a Lions test which could have made these lads legends, Davies switched off, got caught ball watching and was flat footed. He unquestionably cost the try.

Where was this Test match animal in the first two Tests? Why, with the referee playing advantage to the Lions, did he kick the ball away in a panic, handing the Wallabies a lineout and a chance to attack - minutes before the try which was 'unquestionably' Davies's fault? Why did he call for the kick at goal at the death when Halfpenny (whom he didn't consult) had already lacked the distance on a shorter kick?

I'll say again that O'Driscoll has been magic over the years; but there's been little evidence of that magic on tour, except in the non-Test matches, which apparently count for nothing.

rodders wrote:Not surprised at all by the selection.

Feel for BOD but he's given Gats enough ammunition to do what he always planned and get one back on the IRFU.

Also for BOD to lead the Lions to a series victory would be a real sickner for Gats given that Warburton has been the worst Lions captain in living memory. At least AWJ, whos had a great tour in fairness, taking up the reigns keeps it in the family.
.

Rubbish. Why must people think Gatland is still bitter over losing the Irish job? He said he was over it when Wasps won a big Heineken game over there and if he wasn't, then he certainly was in 2008 when Wales won in Dublin.

The bit about Warburton is wrong. How could he possibly be the worst Lions Captain? Firstly he's won a test, secondly in the one he did lose he couldn't have done any more.

Newsilure wrote:Finally, we get to see plan A, without Roberts on the pitch Gatland and Howley(attack Coach!!) have had no clear plan. This selection has not been done in panic as some suggest but rather its been with great relief that they can do what they always planned to do, there wasn't another inside centre in the original selection because they only ever planned for Roberts to play the tests.

I think BOD has been unlucky, particularrly not to be on the bench, although I like Tuilagi if Davies gets injured then we will have two people who have never played together in the centre of our defence and I have no clue how our two crash vball centres will work as a team ... I don't expect Gatland has either!  

However, overall I think this is a good role of the dice although I am a bit surprised that Youngs isn't starting as hooker as he has been very good in the first tests and I am also surprised Evans is not involved.

There has been a lot said about all those close wins Australia have had over Wales, but those have never been about Australia being better players man for man (except Genia) its all been about failure to close the game out and if Wales had had a decent 10 and a bit more composure they would have won a share and probably a 'lions' share of those matches. So, considering that and looking at the man for man match ups in the last two six nations I have always thought the Lions team most likely to succeed would be mainly Welsh with Sexton, BOD, POC and a powerful loosehead thrown in. Thats not quite what we are getting, and loosing Warbs is a huge minus point, but its close enough for me to feel good about this selection

Great post Youngs and Evans is a good shout:thumbsup:

VictorU3 wrote:rodders +1

The fact is the Lions might scrape home against a depleted Aussie team, that is nothing to be proud of.

You're in a positive mood today Hersh.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

I'll say again that O'Driscoll has been magic over the years; but there's been little evidence of that magic on tour, except in the non-Test matches, which apparently count for nothing.

They count for a lot with Gatland.  He's making judgements based on the amount of room and space and metres a player could run in the lesser games.  And if you had more of those games than other guys and looked smart and sharp in them, then here's your ticket to the last Lions test, where the guys playing against the Wallabies were strangely having less productive games.  You couldn't make up the selection criteria on this tour.

BOD's a hero he is, BOD love'im.  All that he's done an' things.  Great icon, lovely fella..... Sick bag!  Forgot to mention Gats that he was also the better centre in the two close run (non harlem globetrotting) tests

VictorU3 wrote:I agree Cole should have started with Jones on the bench, but hey that would have been harsh on a mate!

What did Adam do wrong to warrant being dropped Hersh?

Where BOD will be missed most is at the defence and breakdown, without " a natural 7" which the Gatland way seems to rely on, that could be massive.

I do find it baffling when some posters praise Lydiate for his tackling but criticise BOD and Vunipola who were arguably better defenders and better at the breakdown.

The Lions defence was strong. The Lions attack was non existent. Every player on the pitch is guilty of not pulling their weight in that area.

newsilure well done for being the first person to actually criticise Howley. Supposedly he is a coach in charge of attack but I don't think any of us saw any sign of that in the 2nd test.

Beshocked, Mako was great at the breakdown, but people don't tend to notice that stuff, his inadequacies at the scrum also colour our perception of him. He was atrocious there and could easily have been binned.

nathan wrote:
CentresCentres were always going to see a few players dissapointed and i do feel sorry for BOD, but i'm sure he understands. I'm not sure why but i have a sneaky feeling that Roberts isn't 100%, i would of prefered to see a BOD/Roberts or a BOD/Tuilagi centre pairing

I have the exact same feeling about Roberts. Hoping we are all wrong.

If your actually trying to blame BOD for Davies incapacity to make a simple tackle, or the fact that Halfpenny stepped up to attempt a kick then there is little I or anyone can say as those opinions are not based on reality.

There are so many steps between a kick clearing your lines (which any player would have done) and the moment Davies failed in his defensive setup that to blame BOD for it is laughable and denies your argument any credibility.

Davies and BOD offered nothing in attack down to tactics and an abject performance from the pack. When you don't have the ball to attack with then you have to defend a lot. There are absolutely no comparisons between BOD and Davies in this regard. None. The Aussies will have most of the ball again and I have little confidence that we will keep them out without our best defender.

perhaps bod was only ever a midweek player and got the call  to play the two test because Roberts was injured .

Risca Rev wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:I agree Cole should have started with Jones on the bench, but hey that would have been harsh on a mate!

What did Adam do wrong to warrant being dropped Hersh?

It is Harsh, as AJ has done nothing wrong and is the mainstay of the scrum.. however he offers nothing else around the Park..
maybe the lions need the more of an all round game that Cole offers.. however it is a risk as Cole hasn't been great at Scrum time..

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:If your actually trying to blame BOD for Davies incapacity to make a simple tackle, or the fact that Halfpenny stepped up to attempt a kick then there is little I or anyone can say as those opinions are not based on reality.

There are so many steps between a kick clearing your lines (which any player would have done) and the moment Davies failed in his defensive setup that to blame BOD for it is laughable and denies your argument any credibility.

Davies and BOD offered nothing in attack down to tactics and an abject performance from the pack. When you don't have the ball to attack with then you have to defend a lot. There are absolutely no comparisons between BOD and Davies in this regard. None. The Aussies will have most of the ball again and I have little confidence that we will keep them out without our best defender.

Gatland wasn't going to change his tactics in a week, he coudl change the guys to enforce those tactics. I would have dropped Davies ahead of BOD and probably had Tuilagi in there instead, but I can see why he did it.

jimmyinthewell68 wrote:perhaps bod was only ever a midweek player and got the call  to play the two test because Roberts was injured .

Before Roberts was injured...he was in mid-weeker form himself....

Thomond I agree. Indeed the BOD/Davies pick isn't the issue- it's the pack. That pack is not going to get the job done. The front five are lightweight and poor on tour at the set piece, and an unbalanced backrow. With the options available to him to pick three unbalanced backrows in a row, ignoring key in form players in preferences of under performing personal favourites is criminal.

A quick question;
Has any Fly half ever looked good when Mike Phillips has played Scrum half??

SOB can play 7 in the Irish system, not in this system. He should have replaced Lydiate if he was going to get picked. Get Tipuric in there. I'm probably as disappointed Heaslip isn't in there in truth he has done little wrong.

Hookisms, it is a fact that BOD called for the shot at goal without consulting Halfpenny. It's also a fact that O'Driscoll kicked away the ball when the referee was playing advantage to the Lions, and that minutes later, the Wallabies scored. I'm not saying that O'Driscoll caused Halfpenny to miss his kick, nor Davies to miss his tackle.

pbuk0 wrote:A quick question;
Has any Fly half ever looked good when Mike Phillips has played Scrum half??

I don't know but Priestland definitely looks more confident without the ball....

 this thread is growing at a nice fast rate of 1 page every 40 minutes.

B&I Lions : 1st provider of 606v2 bickering

feel bad for the Welshies, if the Lions lose , chances are they will somehow be blamed till the next tour !

I'm afraid it is blatantly untrue that BOD made the decision to kick without consulting Halfpenny. All you have to do is watch. Failing that, reading the Times report noted exactly the opposite of what you asserted. So either you are mistaken or blatantly lying to justify your own inherent bias.

As for kicking the ball away? You are going to hang your hat on a decision that most players make in every match? You really are clutching here. And even if what you say is true (which is isn't) BOD still outperformed Davies. When Welsh pundits say as much really are in a small and undistinguished minority.

Thomond wrote:Beshocked, Mako was great at the breakdown, but people don't tend to notice that stuff, his inadequacies at the scrum also colour our perception of him. He was atrocious there and could easily have been binned.

Mako was part of a dominant Lions scrum in the 2nd half, helping the Lions win two penalties I think. You have to look at the whole game.

Also according to the stats he beat 2 of the 7 defenders the Lions beat.

The good things the Lions did were the turnovers and defence - something Mako and BOD should take a higher proportion of credit for.

The reason why the Lions lost in my opinion was not the scrum. The Lions were 15-9 when Australia scored their try in the last 5 minutes.

In my opinion the Lions lost because there was no attacking threat from the forwards or the backs. No momentum or pressure was built by the Lions.

The tactics of the backs was to kick the ball straight back to the Aussies. Turnover ball was wasted throughout the match.

The driving maul was heavily underutilised. The Lions won a penalty (and could have won a lot more if Warburton had the cahones) from a driving maul yet refused to use it again.

BOD is another a scapegoat whilst others like Hibbard whose awful lineout cost Lions in the 78th minute dearly (he was good in the scrum) gets away with no criticism, or Lydiate who does nothing but tackle.

Ultimately poor tactics and decision making cost the Lions dearly.

can u imagine the up roar if they tapped and go and they lost the ball through a turn over or knock on . everyone including me would blame the captain not allowing halfpenny to kick it .

If it is untrue that O'Driscoll pointed to the posts without consulting Halfpenny, I apologise. That's how I recall it and I've heard reports saying that's what happened.

It remains true that O'Driscoll kicked away the advantage minutes before the Wallabies scored.

If O'Driscoll's performances had been good enough, Gatland wouldn't have dropped him, simple as that.

Risca Rev wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:I agree Cole should have started with Jones on the bench, but hey that would have been harsh on a mate!

What did Adam do wrong to warrant being dropped Hersh?

Only dropped to the bench, what has Jones done to earn a starting spot? plus it will make us have a strong front row in the last 20mins (Grant, Youngs and Jones) when we really need it as this game won't be won until then.

Also I can't believe you persist with this nonsense, I'm not this hersh guy you obviously had a thing for, in future I'll just ignore your posts as I really can't stand Thick people.

whocares wrote: this thread is growing at a nice fast rate of 1 page every 40 minutes.

B&I Lions : 1st provider of 606v2 bickering  

feel bad for the Welshies, if the Lions lose , chances are they will somehow be blamed till the next tour !

While i think that may happen it shouldn't. It is not the Welsh players (or the Irish or English (or Scottish - Optimistically) but Gatland that has made this tour a farce

He will and should be blamed if we lose it

And if this team does exceptionally well, he should be congratulated (muted)

beshocked wrote:

Thomond wrote:Beshocked, Mako was great at the breakdown, but people don't tend to notice that stuff, his inadequacies at the scrum also colour our perception of him. He was atrocious there and could easily have been binned.

Mako was part of a dominant Lions scrum in the 2nd half, helping the Lions win two penalties I think. You have to look at the whole game.

Also according to the stats he beat 2 of the 7 defenders the Lions beat.

The good things the Lions did were the turnovers and defence - something Mako and BOD should take a higher proportion of credit for.

The reason why the Lions lost in my opinion was not the scrum. The Lions were 15-9 when Australia scored their try in the last 5 minutes.

In my opinion the Lions lost because there was no attacking threat from the forwards or the backs. No momentum or pressure was built by the Lions.

The tactics of the backs was to kick the ball straight back to the Aussies. Turnover ball was wasted throughout the match.

The driving maul was heavily underutilised. The Lions won a penalty (and could have won a lot more if Warburton had the cahones) from a driving maul yet refused to use it again.

BOD is another a scapegoat whilst others like Hibbard whose awful lineout cost Lions in the 78th minute dearly (he was good in the scrum) gets away with no criticism, or Lydiate who does nothing but tackle.

Ultimately poor tactics and decision making cost the Lions dearly.

... 

rodders wrote:

pbuk0 wrote:A quick question;
Has any Fly half ever looked good when Mike Phillips has played Scrum half??

I don't know but Priestland definitely looks more confident without the ball....

that's true.. I always feel that Wales could have been a much more attacking threat with the backs they have, playing a Scrum half who plays for the backs as well as the forwards..

They had to go for the kick. In 79 minutes the Lions didn't look like they were close to breaching the Aussie defence.

It was a 50-50 thing that didn't work out.

VictorU3 wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:I agree Cole should have started with Jones on the bench, but hey that would have been harsh on a mate!

What did Adam do wrong to warrant being dropped Hersh?

Only dropped to the bench, what has Jones done to earn a starting spot? plus it will make us have a strong front row in the last 20mins (Grant, Youngs and Jones) when we really need it as this game won't be won until then.

Also I can't believe you persist with this nonsense, I'm not this hersh guy you obviously had a thing for, in future I'll just ignore your posts as I really can't stand Thick people.

Yeah ok Hersh, please don't ignore me  I don't have a thing for you, I just find it poor moderating when banned users like you and GG are allowed to stick around.

Grant is going to have a huge impact from the bench isn't he. I'm the thick one  Adam Jones is the stronger scrummager, so you start him and then bring on Cole to hammer home the point when they have their subs on also.

jimmyinthewell68 yes there is the difficulty in that situation but it was out of Halfpenny's range.

Halfpenny is a world class goal kicker but he's not actually superhuman (I know some posters probably think he is).

Halfpenny didn't have the distance as the miss earlier in the match showed from a similar range.

VictorU3 if you are indeed Hersh welcome back.

Cyril actually I disagree. In the last minute the Lions actually woke up in attack and made good ground. I was thinking - why not do that earlier.....

Once the dust has settled it will be instructive to see how close Australia get to the top of the Rugby Championship table. I suspect 3rd again this year, which will only go to shopw how poor the fare dished out by the Wions has been this summer.

Beshocked I'm sorry to disappoint you I'm not the said poster Rev is just a bit thick, I've already corrected him on a number of occasions but he just won't drop it, maybe his this hersh guy?

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If it is untrue that O'Driscoll pointed to the posts without consulting Halfpenny, I apologise. That's how I recall it and I've heard reports saying that's what happened.

It remains true that O'Driscoll kicked away the advantage minutes before the Wallabies scored.

If O'Driscoll's performances had been good enough, Gatland wouldn't have dropped him, simple as that.

If Gatland's performances had been good enough, he wouldn't have needed to drop O'Driscoll (better than Davies in both tests still, Luckless) as O'Driscoll would have been in a better position to release those silky Lions backs to get their glorious finger hoisting tries.  Gatland's history is close scoring games with the Wallabies; almost wins for most of it until the 'almost loss' win of the first test.  
He's responsible for the predictability of the encounters when teams he coaches meets the Wallabies...not BOD.  BOD doesn't need lessons in attacking, in-your-face, inventive rugby from Gats or indeed from any of the other youthful backs for that matter.  No, he needs tactics that work.  He's not a miracle worker.

VictorU3 wrote:Beshocked I'm sorry to disappoint you I'm not the said poster Rev is just a bit thick, I've already corrected him on a number of occasions but he just won't drop it, maybe his this hersh guy?

There's your mistake again. Like Hersh used to make on his old profile on 606.

Favourite player = Shane Williams - shame his an Osprey (and I'm the thick one though I can differentiate between his and he's)

Hersh's last post on here the same day as you join. You do the maths "Victor"

For me, this selection shows why Gatland was not a good choice for Lions coach.  He just doesn't seem to have the flexibility to meld the best talent from the 4 nations into a team matching its strengths, but pursues the only style he knows using the players he is used to relying on to deliver it.  I think they should choose a Lions coach who is going to make the best of all 4 nations' players; they've failed to do that on most of the recent tours.

I find the omission of BOD surprising, partly because of his excellent defence, also because he is capable of finding that one moment that wins a game like this.

Also, should be Gray over Parling (I'd give him the benefit of the doubt over Ian Evans at least on the grounds of keeping it representative).

Hibbard over Youngs is a bit of a surprise - Youngs has been very good.  It's obviously in the interests of pure power, but it's a big call.

I'm pleased to see SOB in the back row; Heaslip and Croft are unlucky, but obviously they are rejigging the whole back row and want a different balance.

He really has made the stakes high with this selection - it'll rebound heavily on him and on Wales if they lose.

Well, the scrum looks stronger, but are Australia going to play along and fumble as much as last week?

I'm not sure what I'm looking forward to least, Australia running the ball back from the likely numerous kicks or returning kicks for territory and testing our reduced number of quality jumpers and iffy thrower.

I wonder whether going for the monster front row reflects having a French ref, and feeling that if they gain the ascendnacy it may genuinely be reflected in the decisions.

If Hibbard gets that hair out of his eyes then maybe he'll see where he is throwing the ball, I thought T.Youngs did alright last week (for a tiger)

So much for the Lions concept. I'm going to post my thoughts on the team in a second, I just want to state that I'm so glad that I've never met any real rugby fans who are this bitter or nationalistic to the point of xenophobia.... half of you should be ashamed, my real annoyance is that it covers up the other 50% which are well-reasoned arguments. what a shame.

Another thing against BOD that I am surprised no other posters have picked up is that BOD has been playing at 12 (both in attack and defence), inside Davies and out of position. Both Davies and BOD have pretty poor long range passing but BOD still has excellent handling and vision, and in the 1st test there were a couple of instances where he opened up the Aussie defence and offloaded to Davies who couldn't quite make the break. The pair of them clearly had no mutual understanding.

I've always thought that BOD is not suited to 12 and even though Gatland's tactics haven't helped, expectations of him getting outside defenders and releasing the likes of North whilst playing in an unfavoured position were unrealistic.

The Lions have lost their four most prominent leaders since the first test, as much as I love SOB he could struggle against Hooper and I can't see the omissions of Heaslip, Croft band Youngs improving our lineout.

Comfort wrote:So much for the Lions concept.

Good point.

Tweet of the day "@Jaardy96: Gatland is the 3rd kiwi to drop BOD out of the lions tour after mealamu and Umaga in 2005"  

There would be more togetherness if certain posters didn't throw all their criticism onto one or two players.

Ultimately the loss is a mix of the team and the coaches not performing.

Can anybody say on here, in all honesty, that there are no arguments for the Welsh players that have been selected ? Who should be playing instead of them, and could you please give a reason why ? I even think that there are strong arguments for the Welsh players who are not starting, to be starting.

GLove39 wrote:Tweet of the day "@Jaardy96: Gatland is the 3rd kiwi to drop BOD out of the lions tour after mealamu and Umaga in 2005"  

 At least those boys pretended they did nothing of the sort. The third kiwi looked positively chuffed with himself during his interview. "Nobody else has ever had the courage to own up to a spear tackle on BOD in 15 years"

Regarde the team...

1. Corbs coming back in had to happen, Mako from the bench for impact - yes.
2. Hibbard - Should have been youngs with Hibbard from the bench, but at least Youngs will make a big impact against tiring legs, been very impressed with him.
3. Jones - Done everything asked of him, could get through more in the loose but you know what you get - Cole form the bench, fine, again, adding impact in the last 20.
4. AW Jones - Captain. A very smart and motivational guy. Gatland likes his leaders in the pack, AWJ was touted as a potential captain pre-tour, sensible option.
5. Parling - There to run the lieonut and leave AWJ focus on leading the team, another reason why Youngs should have started at 2.
6. Lydiate - Played a decent game last week, SOB should be here imo.
7. SOB - About time the man gets in the test team, should have been at 6 allowing Tipuric to be at 7.
8. Faletau - Heaslip didnt do anything wrong, didnt do that much right either. Faletau will carry ball all day long and deserves the chance to show what he can do.
9. Phillips - leadership, thats the only reason I can imagine hes there, and to help around the fringe defence.
10. Sexton - Yes.
11. North - yes.
12. Roberts - I would have kept JD2 here.
13. JD2 - I would have bought in Tuilagi and benched BOD (with Tuilagi on the bench i'm expecting a big impact)
14. Bowe - 50/50 with Cuthbert imo, i know a lot wont agree but Cuthberts is a very good strike running option WHO SCORES TRIES (not that Bowe doesnt...)
15. Halfpenny - Yes.

The bench we all expect to make a BIG impact in the last 20. I think Gatland has realised the Aussies have more in the tank everytime.