Lions team announced - AWJ captain & BOD dropped

First topic message reminder :

Given the whole Horwill incident that adds another interesting edge to Saturdays game!

Gatland names 10 Welshman in his starting XV.
And Richie Gray becomes this weeks token Scot...

1. Corbisiero,
2. Hibbard,
3. A Jones,
4. A W Jones (c),
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. O'Brien,
8. Faletau

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davis
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

Bench - T Youngs, Vunipola, Cole, Gray, Tipuric, Murray, Farrell, Tuilagi.

Lorddowlais

Murray instead of Phillips - Phillips played poorly in the 1st test. Murray played well when coming on in the 2nd test. Would link up in the halfbacks with his fellow Irishman.

SOB at 6, Tipuric to 7 instead of Lydiate - Lydiate is evidently a good tackler but he offers no threat with ball in hand. With Warburton injured a 7 is needed, Tipuric fits the bill.SOB brings a much needed ball carrier into the backrow.

Hibbard vs Youngs - debatable. One is better in the loose and has been throwing better. The other has been the stronger scrummager.

Tuilagi instead of Davies - add some much needed oomph to the centres which was sorely missing in the 2nd test.

Also perhaps Roberts shouldn't be played if not match fit.

Comfort wrote:Regarde the team...

1. Corbs coming back in had to happen, Mako from the bench for impact - yes.
2. Hibbard - Should have been youngs with Hibbard from the bench, but at least Youngs will make a big impact against tiring legs, been very impressed with him.
3. Jones - Done everything asked of him, could get through more in the loose but you know what you get - Cole form the bench, fine, again, adding impact in the last 20.
4. AW Jones - Captain. A very smart and motivational guy. Gatland likes his leaders in the pack, AWJ was touted as a potential captain pre-tour, sensible option.
5. Parling - There to run the lieonut and leave AWJ focus on leading the team, another reason why Youngs should have started at 2.
6. Lydiate - Played a decent game last week, SOB should be here imo.
7. SOB - About time the man gets in the test team, should have been at 6 allowing Tipuric to be at 7.
8. Faletau - Heaslip didnt do anything wrong, didnt do that much right either. Faletau will carry ball all day long and deserves the chance to show what he can do.
9. Phillips - leadership, thats the only reason I can imagine hes there, and to help around the fringe defence.
10. Sexton - Yes.
11. North - yes.
12. Roberts - I would have kept JD2 here.
13. JD2 - I would have bought in Tuilagi and benched BOD (with Tuilagi on the bench i'm expecting a big impact)
14. Bowe - 50/50 with Cuthbert imo, i know a lot wont agree but Cuthberts is a very good strike running option WHO SCORES TRIES (not that Bowe doesnt...)
15. Halfpenny - Yes.

The bench we all expect to make a BIG impact in the last 20. I think Gatland has realised the Aussies have more in the tank everytime.

very good analysis comfort.  Although, I think Parling is too small for a lock at international level rugby, I would have put Ian Evans in there, but that could have caused a lot of trouble on here if that happened. 

SecretFly wrote:

Comfort wrote:So much for the Lions concept.

Good point.

 

Have a pint of

beshocked wrote:Lorddowlais

Murray instead of Phillips - Phillips played poorly in the 1st test. Murray played well when coming on in the 2nd test. Would link up in the halfbacks with his fellow Irishman. Both play for Leinster too.

SOB at 6, Tipuric to 7 instead of Lydiate - Lydiate is evidently a good tackler but he offers no threat with ball in hand. With Warburton injured a 7 is needed, Tipuric fits the bill.SOB brings a much needed ball carrier into the backrow.

Hibbard vs Youngs - debatable. One is better in the loose and has been throwing better. The other has been the stronger scrummager.

Tuilagi instead of Davies - add some much needed oomph to the centres which was sorely missing in the 2nd test.

Also perhaps Roberts shouldn't be played if not match fit.

beshocked, when you watch the game on Saturday, watch how far back/deep Sexton is standing, now, I do not know if he is being told to play like this, or if he is just avoiding any contact, but in the first test he was playing so deep, Phillips had nobody next to him and as a result took more things into his own hands, the same happened with Youngs last week, unless your no.10 is willing to step up and shoulder more responsibility then your scrum half will struggle, for me I would rather Phillips take the game on than Youngs as he is more aggressive.

Looks like Gatland has thrown in the towel at trying to be a coach who can meld players together at short notice, and instead is just going to play his Wales team with a few tokens. This strategy is fine but if he was going to employ it he should have had the full courage of his convictions and picked, Evans, Tipuric and Cuthbert in his starting XV as well.

If Corbisiero is fit then why has Hibbard been drafted in? The Corbs/Youngs/Jones led scrum went well in the first test, so it can't have been to bolster the scrum. If Corbs isn't fit then surely he shouldn't be starting rather than try to compensate? Secondly Hibbard's throwing hasn't been any better than the much maligned Best so it can't be for lineout security. Indeed if the lineout was an issue then why is Parling still included? Drafting Hibbard in would have been the ideal opportunity to also bring in Evans at lock instead of GP. As it is Parling is given the responsibility of calling a line with an unfamiliar Hooker throwing to the two shortest locks in the party and very few options in the backrow.

Tipuric would have slotted into a familiar pack who are used to each other's roles, and while Lydiate gets the prize for the best unseen player of the tour, at least with Faletau they would know exactly where Dan wasn't.

Cuthbert has such poor defence that Gatland prefers to play Bowe with a broken hand rather than trust Alex to stop Tomane. Yet Cuthbert is a potent weapon as already proved, but that sums up Gatland's defensive mindset that brings in a half-fit Roberts as the knee-jerk reaction to Davies' woeful performance last week.

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If it is untrue that O'Driscoll pointed to the posts without consulting Halfpenny, I apologise. That's how I recall it and I've heard reports saying that's what happened.

It remains true that O'Driscoll kicked away the advantage minutes before the Wallabies scored.

If O'Driscoll's performances had been good enough, Gatland wouldn't have dropped him, simple as that.

If Gatland's performances had been good enough, he wouldn't have needed to drop O'Driscoll (better than Davies in both tests still, Luckless) as O'Driscoll would have been in a better position to release those silky Lions backs to get their glorious finger hoisting tries.

We're getting nowhere here. All that matters is that, clearly, Gatland didn't see enough in O'Driscoll's performances in the first two Tests to keep him in the side for the third. I don't believe that Gatland would have left him out if his performances had demanded that he keep his place.

Bit of an unfair measure there Lucky.

BOD has to perform enough to "demand" he keeps his place. What did the others do to "demand" they make the test side?

Sounds like you are suggesting that BOD had to do more than the others to get picked. The others just had to be there. Or not even be there in Roberts case. It certainly looks that way.

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody say on here, in all honesty, that there are no arguments for the Welsh players that have been selected ? Who should be playing instead of them, and could you please give a reason why ? I even think that there are strong arguments for the Welsh players who are not starting, to be starting.

The 3 main ones are

Philips - awful (and I mean awful) in the first test and ?injured? no way deserves to be in the test on that performance - Murray

Roberts - poor all tour and been injured for 3 weeks - how he jump in the test side is a mystery - Tulialgi

Lydiate - we need more go forward, so while his playing ok, not the right balance (this is a 50/50 call though)

If BOD hasn't done enough to retain his place then what has Davies, who BOD out performed in the two tests, done to merit his place? BOD below his best is still a better centre than Davies. It's as simple as that.

LordDowlais wrote:

beshocked, when you watch the game on Saturday, watch how far back/deep Sexton is standing, now, I do not know if he is being told to play like this, or if he is just avoiding any contact, but in the first test he was playing so deep, Phillips had nobody next to him and as a result took more things into his own hands, the same happened with Youngs last week, unless your no.10 is willing to step up and shoulder more responsibility then your scrum half will struggle, for me I would rather Phillips take the game on than Youngs as he is more aggressive.

On other threads and in other posts BOD made Davies play bad.  And now Sexton made Phillips look bad?  There's always an excuse why players who haven't performed at test level are now in the final and players who have played better are either on a bench or have faced the total humilation of being wiped from a bench.

If your 10 stands deep it's because the backs need momentum to carry whatever ball they're going to try and carry...espceially against a tight and hard Aussie defence.  9 must have the hands to place ball wherever his 10 sits as his 10 is the one calculating the options.  Phillips taking 'things into his own hands' is a cop out.

He didn't perform and a player who has been performing is on the bench.... incidently, a player who knows Sexton better and might be more intuitive with him.  

But no...let's get Farrell on instead to help Phillips play better.

Riskysports wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody say on here, in all honesty, that there are no arguments for the Welsh players that have been selected ? Who should be playing instead of them, and could you please give a reason why ? I even think that there are strong arguments for the Welsh players who are not starting, to be starting.

The 3 main ones are

Philips - awful (and I mean awful) in the first test and ?injured? no way deserves to be in the test on that performance - Murray

Roberts - poor all tour and been injured for 3 weeks - how he jump in the test side is a mystery - Tulialgi

Lydiate - we need more go forward, so while his playing ok, not the right balance (this is a 50/50 call though)

I'd add Hibbard to that aswell Risky. He's better suited to starting games than making an impact from the bench(purely because it seems to take him a short while to get up to game speed when he comes off the bench) but Youngs deserves to start. The only thing I can think of is that I've read a lot of technical stuff about the aussies basically using Youngs height to their advantage in the scrum and scrummaging between the LH and Youngs causing the imbalance that has caused collpases. I'm not a frontrower so if anyone with more knowledge can go into a bit more depth perhaps that would help explain it....

This is all rather depressing, Roberts getting a test start when he has yet to test his shoulder is a very bad call and one that I think will cost us the game.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If it is untrue that O'Driscoll pointed to the posts without consulting Halfpenny, I apologise. That's how I recall it and I've heard reports saying that's what happened.

It remains true that O'Driscoll kicked away the advantage minutes before the Wallabies scored.

If O'Driscoll's performances had been good enough, Gatland wouldn't have dropped him, simple as that.

If Gatland's performances had been good enough, he wouldn't have needed to drop O'Driscoll (better than Davies in both tests still, Luckless) as O'Driscoll would have been in a better position to release those silky Lions backs to get their glorious finger hoisting tries.

We're getting nowhere here. All that matters is that, clearly, Gatland didn't see enough in O'Driscoll's performances in the first two Tests to keep him in the side for the third. I don't believe that Gatland would have left him out if his performances had demanded that he keep his place.

We are getting nowhere because you fail to admit that over the two real tests (the games that matter) BOD had a better centre performance than Davies.  So if Gatland is watching rugby and wants to pick 'best' performers in positions, then he would have benched Davies and left BOD to play with Roberts or Tuilagi.
No...he didn't even put BOD on the bench, which is pointed and NOT in any way a fair reference to BOD's performances over the two tests.  

Gatland is thinking of WCs , whether he wants to admit to it or not, and he's busy killing two birds with one stone as he drives his Welsh players forward to have them very familiar with the Wallabies by the pool stages of WC.  Yet another encounter in the Autumn.  
Nope, BOD was not the biggest offender in the tests, he's a fall guy as Gatland's true motivations emerge.  Practice for WC.

Phillips did have a lousy first test. Particularly given where he is in his career, he really needs to pull out a big one on Saturday.

I think Roberts is likely to do the job he is there for pretty well.

MrsP wrote:Bit of an unfair measure there Lucky.

BOD has to perform enough to "demand" he keeps his place. What did the others do to "demand" they make the test side?

Sounds like you are suggesting that BOD had to do more than the others to get picked. The others just had to be there. Or not even be there in Roberts case. It certainly looks that way.

It's not my measure, MrsP. Gatland must have concluded that O'Driscoll wasn't doing enough to keep his place. I don't believe he'd have dropped him out of spite.

Then again, as it's a must-win Test, maybe he's just gone with a proven (recent) Test combination.

I can't remember the last time I felt as flat as this after a team announcement. I had planned to watch the game and then go on to another commitment. I don't think I can be bothered watching.

Hibbard is the better scrummager and therefore gets in ahead of Youngs: maybe so, but with Corbisiero back, the front row is a bit better than last week's, so why not leave in Youngs;

Parling? should have been Evans or Grey - I agree with this although personally I would have preferred Grey to Evans who I don't think has done very much all tour;

AWJ as captain - what other options are there once the decision to drop BOD was taken? Who takes over the role if AWJ goes off? There is a distinct lack of leadership in this team;

Lydiate? well no one is really suprised by that selection are they?

Phillips? Lord Dowlais comments above that "Phillips had nobody next to him and as a result took more things into his own hands" when discussing Sexton's depth of position. I was appalled at the number of rucks in the first half of the first test where Phillips was nowhere in shot as the ball was emerging. He was astonishingly slow at getting to the breakdown in that forty minutes. I was reminded of the comments Gatland made during the 6Ns about the French-based players being unfit when they returned for the internationals (not injured, just unfit). I was surprised that we were seeing what appeared to be a repeat of that situation. Then we were told that MP had a knee injury. So now he is fit again?

There has been a huge amount of discussion on the choice of centres. Irish fans on here will know that I have wished for BOD to retire so that his stellar career is not overshadowed by the manner of his going. I think Gatland deserves any amount of criticism for dropping BOD. He hasn't been at his best in this series but ... he has had a muppet playing beside him; he has tackled his heart out; he has genuine leadership qualities in a team which has a very severe lack of these; AND he is a game-changer. Time after time after time, BOD turns up and scores the try the team really really need. For those last two qualities he should have been picked.

Bowe? Some wanted Cuthbert back for his finishing abilities. Good point, although we know Bowe can finish too. I watched TB fairly closely last week and in the first quarter he was definitely off the pace. There were a couple of high balls where he was half a pace behind the Aussie player. However, he definitely improved as the game went on.

Probably the least contentious selection is that of Halfpenny. ALWAYS choose the in-form kicker.

'Practice for WC..'

Sadly you may be right there, for future Lions tours I think there should be a rule barring current head coaches of the home nation’s teams being in charge.

Riskysports wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody say on here, in all honesty, that there are no arguments for the Welsh players that have been selected ? Who should be playing instead of them, and could you please give a reason why ? I even think that there are strong arguments for the Welsh players who are not starting, to be starting.

The 3 main ones are

Philips - awful (and I mean awful) in the first test and ?injured? no way deserves to be in the test on that performance - Murray

Roberts - poor all tour and been injured for 3 weeks - how he jump in the test side is a mystery - Tulialgi

Lydiate - we need more go forward, so while his playing ok, not the right balance (this is a 50/50 call though)

As mentioned before Risky, Roberts and Phillips are the game plan, they don't play a pretty game and both are constantly criticised in Wales, but together they put in place the structure Gatland and Howley see as their way to win. They may well not be the best individual players in their positions, although I don't think there is anyone clearly better than them in this squad, but that is not the point its the job they can do that Gatland looks at and lets hope he is correct.

Without Warbs, BOD and Vunipola(although Cobs will do well) on the pitch Lydiates tackling becomes even more important and don't underestimate the attacking impetus some of the turn over options his 'negative' play creates .... if SOB gets the ball as Dan knocks them down and with Toby there to make some good yards this back row can quickly turn defence into attack  .....there is hope

Fly, even if BOD was the better centre in the two Tests - and let's say he was - what's clear is that he didn't do enough to convince Gatland he should keep his place. That's self-evident from his omission, surely?

The team looks stronger than the side for the second test, I would have gone further and dropped Parling for Gray and Evans on the bench also I prefer Tipuric at 7, SOB is no 7 (6 not an 8) to win some ball on the ground but at least he is on the bench. I would not have picked Lydiate for the tour but he showed what he is about last weekend, he had a great game for Warburton to shine. As soon as our 7 went off last week the turn overs dried up so I am concerned having two 6's in this week's team.

The dropping of BOD shows Gatland is going for the win, BOD tackled his heart out but an outside centre who has made less than 10m in two games combined, is poor, the fact is he is no longer a running threat at this level.

I thought the Lions would lose last week but overall we have a better team this week so I feel the Lions should win this game providing we don't lose Corbs early on, I wish Grant was on the bench in place of MV, there must be a reason?

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody say on here, in all honesty, that there are no arguments for the Welsh players that have been selected ? Who should be playing instead of them, and could you please give a reason why ? I even think that there are strong arguments for the Welsh players who are not starting, to be starting.

I totally agree Lord. In my opinion there were very few places up for grabs:

15 Halfpenny - nailed on
14 Bowe - flip of coin betwen him and Cuthbert but Bowe on defence
13 BOD or JD2 - flip of a coin but whoever didn't play would not have impact off the bench.
12 Roberts - only inside centre on tour - for those calling for Manu please note he is not a 12
11 North - nailed on
10 Sexton - not played well but better than Farrell
9 Phillips - Youngs had his chance and didn't take it last week - phillips needs a big game but is a big game player
8 Toby - Heaslip not done enough in last two tests
7 O'Brien - deserves his chance. Tips good option off the bench but not suited to the more physical game that Gatland has planned.
6 Lydiate - I love this guy and would have in my team every time. For all those who criticise him then look again at what he does.
4 & 5 - Again no-one stands out. Gray and Evans been ok and would not have argued if either had been picked but none of them have demanded the shirt.
3 Adam - nailed on - destroyed Aussie scrum last week when he was on. Cole a good sub at 60 mins.
2 Hibbard - Feel a little sorry for Youngs but poor last week compared to first test. Hibbard needs to hit his jumper early or he will lose confidence. However lineout jumping is not all about the hooker. some of the calls last week baffled me. 5 Minutes to go and we go long - should have been front ball, catch and drive to get into position for drop goal. If POC had been on there we would have done that.
1 Corbs - nailed on and really missed him last week. For all those saying Mako made this many tackles/yards etc - he also gave 6 ponts away in the scrum for folding although did get better in second half.

I have been watching The Lions since 1971 and no-one rembers the problems with selections when we win, just that we won. If we win saturday then all this bickering will be forgotten and they will all be heroes. The last series we won in 1997 we were outplayed in every test but won thanks to Jenkins kicking the points.

In a sense, win or lose on Saturday this tour has been a failure. A failure to take players from four nations and gel them together as one team. We've reached the end of the tour and the Head Coach has come to the conclusion that the only way for us to win is to throw in as many Welshmen as possible and play exactly like Wales.

I still believe it's going to be 50/50 on the day but this team selection is a fairly damning indictment of how Gatland has failed to live up to the ideals of the Lions. Hopefully he's not allowed anywhere near the 2017 tour and I won't be changing my mind if we win the series- the Lions, like the Barbarians, is about more than just winning anyway possible.

The centre decision makes no sense. Firstly, the most experienced international Captain in the side is left out. Secondly, the most potent attacking centre partnership on tour was Tuilagi/BOD.

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody say on here, in all honesty, that there are no arguments for the Welsh players that have been selected ? Who should be playing instead of them, and could you please give a reason why ? I even think that there are strong arguments for the Welsh players who are not starting, to be starting.

Given the tactics that Gatland is employing it makes sense to have majority of Welsh in squad. Gatlandball might not work and be dull but at least the players will be familiar with it. As are the Aussies.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not my measure, MrsP. Gatland must have concluded that O'Driscoll wasn't doing enough to keep his place. I don't believe he'd have dropped him out of spite.

Then again, as it's a must-win Test, maybe he's just gone with a proven (recent) Test combination.

Not out of spite, but possibly for calling him out on his incredibly negative tactics. And your second point- illustrates that he has failed. He has failed to elaborate on the gameplan he has implemented with Wales and has finally had to resort to just cramming his team as full of Welsh players as possible in the hope that their extra familiarity with his one gameplan, which he has no ability to change or adapt, will make the difference.

Win or lose, the shoite negative boshtastic rugby we've had on this tour will leave a bitter taste in the mouth.

Cyril wrote:

LordDowlais wrote:Can anybody say on here, in all honesty, that there are no arguments for the Welsh players that have been selected ? Who should be playing instead of them, and could you please give a reason why ? I even think that there are strong arguments for the Welsh players who are not starting, to be starting.

Given the tactics that Gatland is employing it makes sense to have majority of Welsh in squad. Gatlandball might not work and be dull but at least the players will be familiar with it. As are the Aussies.

Aye, familiar with overcoming it.

"he has had a muppet playing beside him"

Foolish comment.

Notch wrote:In a sense, win or lose on Saturday this tour has been a failure. A failure to take players from four nations and gel them together as one team. We've reached the end of the tour and the Head Coach has come to the conclusion that the only way for us to win is to throw in as many Welshmen as possible and play exactly like Wales.

I still believe it's going to be 50/50 on the day but this team selection is a fairly damning indictment of how Gatland has failed to live up to the ideals of the Lions. Hopefully he's not allowed anywhere near the 2017 tour and I won't be changing my mind if we win the series- the Lions, like the Barbarians, is about more than just winning anyway possible.

The centre decision makes no sense. Firstly, the most experienced international Captain in the side is left out. Secondly, the most potent attacking centre partnership on tour was Tuilagi/BOD.

Never heard such nonsense. Gatland is there to pick a winning team and not some ideal of having all countries represented. It is up to the players on the tour to show that they should be picked and if I am honest very few of them have done that. BUT we are still in with a shout of winning the series for only the 5th time in 125 years. If we do not win then Gatland will get all the flack for picking 10 Welshmen but as I have previously posted there was not a lot to choose from elsewhere.

AW Jones fecking Captain!!! Now THAT is a joke!.

The guy shouldnt even be in the squad let alone Captaining it.

That second row is gonna get blown away!!!

Notch wrote:In a sense, win or lose on Saturday this tour has been a failure. A failure to take players from four nations and gel them together as one team. We've reached the end of the tour and the Head Coach has come to the conclusion that the only way for us to win is to throw in as many Welshmen as possible and play exactly like Wales.

I still believe it's going to be 50/50 on the day but this team selection is a fairly damning indictment of how Gatland has failed to live up to the ideals of the Lions. Hopefully he's not allowed anywhere near the 2017 tour and I won't be changing my mind if we win the series- the Lions, like the Barbarians, is about more than just winning anyway possible.

The centre decision makes no sense. Firstly, the most experienced international Captain in the side is left out. Secondly, the most potent attacking centre partnership on tour was Tuilagi/BOD.

well said

GeordieFalcon wrote:AW Jones fecking Captain!!! Now THAT is a joke!.

The guy shouldnt even be in the squad let alone Captaining it.

That second row is gonna get blown away!!!

Who would you have gone with as 1. Second Row and 2. Captain

VictorU3 wrote:'Practice for WC..'

Sadly you may be right there, for future Lions tours I think there should be a rule barring current head coaches of the home nation’s teams being in charge.

I made this point prior to the tour. Whichever way you look at it selecting a current head coach leaves them open to claims of bias one way or another.

VictorU3 wrote:

Notch wrote:In a sense, win or lose on Saturday this tour has been a failure. A failure to take players from four nations and gel them together as one team. We've reached the end of the tour and the Head Coach has come to the conclusion that the only way for us to win is to throw in as many Welshmen as possible and play exactly like Wales.

I still believe it's going to be 50/50 on the day but this team selection is a fairly damning indictment of how Gatland has failed to live up to the ideals of the Lions. Hopefully he's not allowed anywhere near the 2017 tour and I won't be changing my mind if we win the series- the Lions, like the Barbarians, is about more than just winning anyway possible.

The centre decision makes no sense. Firstly, the most experienced international Captain in the side is left out. Secondly, the most potent attacking centre partnership on tour was Tuilagi/BOD.

well said

I really think the majority of posters on here want The Lions to lose so they can slate both Gatland and Wales

 There's only one 2nd row that's gonna get blown away AGAIN and it will not be AWJ

Pyleboy65 wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:

Notch wrote:In a sense, win or lose on Saturday this tour has been a failure. A failure to take players from four nations and gel them together as one team. We've reached the end of the tour and the Head Coach has come to the conclusion that the only way for us to win is to throw in as many Welshmen as possible and play exactly like Wales.

I still believe it's going to be 50/50 on the day but this team selection is a fairly damning indictment of how Gatland has failed to live up to the ideals of the Lions. Hopefully he's not allowed anywhere near the 2017 tour and I won't be changing my mind if we win the series- the Lions, like the Barbarians, is about more than just winning anyway possible.

The centre decision makes no sense. Firstly, the most experienced international Captain in the side is left out. Secondly, the most potent attacking centre partnership on tour was Tuilagi/BOD.

well said

I really think the majority of posters on here want The Lions to lose so they can slate both Gatland and Wales

How does that post slate Wales? It slates Gatland and is reasonable in what it says. I guess it depends on what your expectations of a Lions tour/squad are in this professional era.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Fly, even if BOD was the better centre in the two Tests - and let's say he was - what's clear is that he didn't do enough to convince Gatland he should keep his place. That's self-evident from his omission, surely?

That's a completely different argument.  Gatland can choose whatever team he likes, for his own reasons - one of them I've already alluded to.  He's done it. It's accomplished. It's a load off his back. But I've a right to say what I think of it.

Don't cover-up his choices by suggesting he didn't see enough from BOD and saw plenty from Davies.  He didn't, because in the two games it din't happen. BOD missed a Tuilagi or Roberts more than Davies was held back by BOD.  

BOD is Irish, he's coming to the end of his career, he would have taken too much of the publicity with him had he been part of a winning game for a winning series in his last every showing in Red.  No, Gatland has other fish to fry, he thinks he has a new BOD in Davies, he's giving him as much rope as he can to train him up and prepare him to act BOD in the next WC, as he teams up with Roberts - the player who came alive under the style of BOD in the last Lions tour.

Gatland has kicked muck into the face of O'Driscoll for his own selfish (and Nationalistic in rugby terms) ends.  No, I'll personally never forgive him for the insult of not even including on the bench a player who has always given 100% his heart to this series and the Lions itself - and more importantly, a player who would have held his own in that final game.

Pyleboy65 wrote:

Notch wrote:In a sense, win or lose on Saturday this tour has been a failure. A failure to take players from four nations and gel them together as one team. We've reached the end of the tour and the Head Coach has come to the conclusion that the only way for us to win is to throw in as many Welshmen as possible and play exactly like Wales.

I still believe it's going to be 50/50 on the day but this team selection is a fairly damning indictment of how Gatland has failed to live up to the ideals of the Lions. Hopefully he's not allowed anywhere near the 2017 tour and I won't be changing my mind if we win the series- the Lions, like the Barbarians, is about more than just winning anyway possible.

The centre decision makes no sense. Firstly, the most experienced international Captain in the side is left out. Secondly, the most potent attacking centre partnership on tour was Tuilagi/BOD.

Never heard such nonsense. Gatland is there to pick a winning team and not some ideal of having all countries represented. It is up to the players on the tour to show that they should be picked and if I am honest very few of them have done that. BUT we are still in with a shout of winning the series for only the 5th time in 125 years. If we do not win then Gatland will get all the flack for picking 10 Welshmen but as I have previously posted there was not a lot to choose from elsewhere.

My problem is not just with the selection. It's with the mentality that has seen that selection come about. Instead of trying to come up with a gameplan that goes above and beyond what any individual nation would be capable of on their own, he's hammering this team into a limited Welsh mold. It's limited thinking.

Instead of trying to build something new he's just trying to make this team play like Wales to the extent that he's come to the conclusion that he can only really trust the Welsh tourists when push comes to shove.

The reason there's not a lot to choose from is Gatland has this team playing in his negative boshtastic tactical straight jacket. We have a 50/50 chance of winning this, but it will be a pretty inglorious victory if we do.

RubyGuby wrote: There's only one 2nd row that's gonna get blown away AGAIN and it will not be AWJ

Parling is too small for a second row at international level.

I can appreciate people are upset, but this is descending into nonsense. AWJ has been very good in both tests so far (better in the first, but still good in the 2nd). It was Parling who was the weakness last time out (surprisingly, for me).

I agree with Notch about the Lions being undermined, though. The whole point is that it isn't one nation playing Aus or whoever, but a special team made up from 4.

The more I think about this farce the angrier I get. There was so much potential for this tour, wasted by a stubborn, mule-headed coach. Only a win will save his reputation.

The Lions are pathetic. Hope Australia smash them. When I saw Israel Folau running around fat Welsh hams like there was no tomorrow in the first test I knew the Aussies would win the series.

If the Lions lose I won't be happy and I will slate Gatlandball rugby as it will have been proven once and for all that it only works in the NH against NH teams.

Pyleboy65 wrote:

Notch wrote:In a sense, win or lose on Saturday this tour has been a failure. A failure to take players from four nations and gel them together as one team. We've reached the end of the tour and the Head Coach has come to the conclusion that the only way for us to win is to throw in as many Welshmen as possible and play exactly like Wales.

I still believe it's going to be 50/50 on the day but this team selection is a fairly damning indictment of how Gatland has failed to live up to the ideals of the Lions. Hopefully he's not allowed anywhere near the 2017 tour and I won't be changing my mind if we win the series- the Lions, like the Barbarians, is about more than just winning anyway possible.

The centre decision makes no sense. Firstly, the most experienced international Captain in the side is left out. Secondly, the most potent attacking centre partnership on tour was Tuilagi/BOD.

Never heard such nonsense. Gatland is there to pick a winning team and not some ideal of having all countries represented. It is up to the players on the tour to show that they should be picked and if I am honest very few of them have done that. BUT we are still in with a shout of winning the series for only the 5th time in 125 years. If we do not win then Gatland will get all the flack for picking 10 Welshmen but as I have previously posted there was not a lot to choose from elsewhere.

Gats isn't biased towards Welsh players necessarily. It's just that doesn't seem flexible enough to employ other tactics to bring out the best in players he doesn't regularly coach. So when he can't change his gameplan he has to fall back on those he knows. I'm not saying that plenty of Welsh players don't deserve their place it's just that the whole approach is just a bit meh.

Notch wrote:In a sense, win or lose on Saturday this tour has been a failure. A failure to take players from four nations and gel them together as one team. We've reached the end of the tour and the Head Coach has come to the conclusion that the only way for us to win is to throw in as many Welshmen as possible and play exactly like Wales.

I still believe it's going to be 50/50 on the day but this team selection is a fairly damning indictment of how Gatland has failed to live up to the ideals of the Lions. Hopefully he's not allowed anywhere near the 2017 tour and I won't be changing my mind if we win the series- the Lions, like the Barbarians, is about more than just winning anyway possible.

The centre decision makes no sense. Firstly, the most experienced international Captain in the side is left out. Secondly, the most potent attacking centre partnership on tour was Tuilagi/BOD.

Agree 100%

Spot on Notch.

So Gatland should have stuck with O'Driscoll so he could have the send-off he deserves, even though he clearly thinks Davies is the man for the job? I'm sorry, but I would think less of him if he'd done that. He wants to win the series, not spare someone's feelings. He wasn't appointed to make people feel good. For good or ill, this is professional sport.

But BOD out performed JD in both tests, it makes no sense

Combination on bench and team get me...
Starting front row all best scrummagers. So when they all (or some) get replaced you end up with Youngs/MV - a combo which some hold to blame for scrum problems last week. Surely the better option is to have corbs/young then MV/hibs as replacement

If you play Lydiate you want an out an out 7 who is used to him to make the most of it (see Warbs performance test 1 vs test 2) so you need to start with Tipuric.

Better alternative would be any 2 from Croft/SOB/Tips

It feels a bit like Parling is there as the scapegoat.

Roberts - I really hope he proves me wrong. As far as I can remember he has had 1 decent game in 2 years (it was against England so maybe that counts extra). I wonder if Manu is carrying a bit of an injury- he is the best attacking center there and if he is lucky enough to get on he is going to get 10- 20 minutes and maybe one pass and will also be scapegoated if we loose.

Davies is a class class player but he has had one brilliant performance on tour and at test level 2 very average ones. (He was the reason we won the 1st test though - for the wrong reasons - I dont think the Wallabies would have lost with their 1st choice kicker on the pitch). So they drop BOD.

I think what you want to see in a Lions tour is a combination of the four nations come together and find an identity - a way of playing that takes something from all of them. You want the players pushed out of their comfort zones but playing at a higher level than they normally do. In the first test there were hints of that - but the 2nd test and now the team selection for the third does just seem to have turned it into Wales + friends

Notch wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:It's not my measure, MrsP. Gatland must have concluded that O'Driscoll wasn't doing enough to keep his place. I don't believe he'd have dropped him out of spite.

Then again, as it's a must-win Test, maybe he's just gone with a proven (recent) Test combination.

Not out of spite, but possibly for calling him out on his incredibly negative tactics. And your second point- illustrates that he has failed. He has failed to elaborate on the gameplan he has implemented with Wales and has finally had to resort to just cramming his team as full of Welsh players as possible in the hope that their extra familiarity with his one gameplan, which he has no ability to change or adapt, will make the difference.

Win or lose, the shoite negative boshtastic rugby we've had on this tour will leave a bitter taste in the mouth.

In bold above; this would not surprise me at all. BOD has been poor and JD worse. So you go, on merit: Roberts/Tualagi, Roberts/BOD, Roberts/JD as Roberts is only "fit" 12. Gatland selected this on favouritism and fear. Like his tactics in the first two tests. Maybe a leader stood up and told him that fearful tactics only bring ruin. Maybe BOD was that leader, maybe not, but he now has the players in place to play his favourite game, Gatland ball.

And if the Lions win, last second of the game, halfpenny kick, with no inventiveness or passion being played, but us living off another teams mistakes, then it is a failed tour no matter what the Welsh wums on here think.

Notch wrote:In a sense, win or lose on Saturday this tour has been a failure. A failure to take players from four nations and gel them together as one team. We've reached the end of the tour and the Head Coach has come to the conclusion that the only way for us to win is to throw in as many Welshmen as possible and play exactly like Wales.

I still believe it's going to be 50/50 on the day but this team selection is a fairly damning indictment of how Gatland has failed to live up to the ideals of the Lions. Hopefully he's not allowed anywhere near the 2017 tour and I won't be changing my mind if we win the series- the Lions, like the Barbarians, is about more than just winning anyway possible.

The centre decision makes no sense. Firstly, the most experienced international Captain in the side is left out. Secondly, the most potent attacking centre partnership on tour was Tuilagi/BOD.

606v2 has erupted into an excrement hurricane but this post is a shining diamond in the car wreck. Bravo.  

The whole selection of this WUM team is the perfect advert why a neutral should coach the lions in the future, and if not a neutral there should be a voice from every nation in the coaching team to balance the next tour. I'll find it very difficult to support this team on Saturday, not just because of the lack of Scottish representation, let's face it if Grant couldn't get on the pitch in the wake of Vunipola's performance last week AWJ or Parling will have to have lost limbs for him to get on the pitch.

What bothers me more is guys like Roberts, who hasn't been electric on tour are now waltzing into the test team whilst arguably the best player I can ever recall seeing get's not just benched but dropped. Why not a BOD/Tuilagi combo? It just smacks of jobs for the boyos...

For the record, I have said it till I'm blue in the face, route one rugby won't beat Australia, we need more than a physical backline to beat them. Said it before and I'm saying it now.