Lions team announced - AWJ captain & BOD dropped

First topic message reminder :

Given the whole Horwill incident that adds another interesting edge to Saturdays game!

Gatland names 10 Welshman in his starting XV.
And Richie Gray becomes this weeks token Scot...

1. Corbisiero,
2. Hibbard,
3. A Jones,
4. A W Jones (c),
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. O'Brien,
8. Faletau

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davis
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

Bench - T Youngs, Vunipola, Cole, Gray, Tipuric, Murray, Farrell, Tuilagi.

Reading through the last couple of pages of this article has given me real hope that the Lions won't be around much longer. Fingers crossed for Saturday. I have the fortune to what it in Wales. Better keep my gob shut.

"The problem is there isn't a creative one available." The closest thing around is 36, I wish he'd been involved from the off.

All I can say about this team selection is...well done Australia on your series victory.

                                                                         

There can be little objective doubt that Gatland has been an unmitigated disaster, but what of Messers Howley, Rowntree and Farrell who are supposed to provide continuity to the next tour? Their selection has been just as big a train smash as the playing squad.

If O'Driscoll's performances on tour and in the series so far had been sufficiently good, he wouldn't have been dropped. His form wouldn't have allowed it. I don't know why that's so hard to comprehend. But he hasn't played that well.

If the Lions win do Wales get the ranking points?.....

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If O'Driscoll's performances on tour and in the series so far had been sufficiently good, he wouldn't have been dropped. His form wouldn't have allowed it. I don't know why that's so hard to comprehend. But he hasn't played that well.

Played better in the tests than the guy in 13 on Saturday. That seems very difficult for some to comprehend here. He's played less games than the other contender and played better than the other contender in both tests. You don't decide performance in harlem globetrotting games against club sides, you measure them in the tests themselves. One guy made the start, the other guy didn't even get a bench - one of them played better through the tests (however below standard the performances of either were).

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If O'Driscoll's performances on tour and in the series so far had been sufficiently good, he wouldn't have been dropped. His form wouldn't have allowed it. I don't know why that's so hard to comprehend. But he hasn't played that well.

He's been one of the best performers in a fairly mediocre tour Luckless...and you know as well as I do that if his name had of been Brian Jones, not only would he be starting, but he'd be sharing the honeymoon suite with Gats, Howley, Warbs and Lydiate.....  

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If O'Driscoll's performances on tour and in the series so far had been sufficiently good, he wouldn't have been dropped. His form wouldn't have allowed it. I don't know why that's so hard to comprehend. But he hasn't played that well.

And Davies has been better, has he. Lets not stick our fingers in our ears and pretend form has anything to do with this. Lets at least all admit its down to Gatland picking players he's worked with more recently and feels comfortable with.

Its based on getting the tactics as close to Team Wales as possible.

At outside centre on tour, yes, Notch, I think he has played better.

The fact remains that if O'Driscoll had played as well as he can and has in the past, he'd be starting on Saturday.

Notch wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If O'Driscoll's performances on tour and in the series so far had been sufficiently good, he wouldn't have been dropped. His form wouldn't have allowed it. I don't know why that's so hard to comprehend. But he hasn't played that well.

And Davies has been better, has he. Lets not stick our fingers in our ears and pretend form has anything to do with this. Lets at least all admit its down to Gatland picking players he's worked with more recently and feels comfortable with.

You know, the hilarious thing is if it was the other way around, if an Irish or Englsh coach implemented a game-plan that filled the team with the players they knew, and continually followed a failed game plan, the welsh lads would be (rightly) pieved and insistent on change. But self reflection is not the order of the day here, more "any slight to Gatland/The Lions/My favourite Welsh player is a slight to Wales/Me/My mum etc.

I know that alot of the Irish/Scottish and some English posters have a bit of prospective on their teams. I saw a huge amount of self-criticism and sober analysis when Ireland won the Grand Slam the way they did, but such a thing would be impossible for the heavy posting welsh posters on here, Lord/Ruby. Some the English lads when talking about England at the start of the 6 Nations, were highly critical of Lancaster (despite winning) and again rightly so. But the ability to look calmly at the Lions mess and say, ye,s Gatland has gotten it wrong seems impossible to so many posters.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:At outside centre on tour, yes, Notch, I think he has played better.

that is not the question though is it, not form "on tour" but in the TESTS. Not against the BaaBaas or some club team, in the tests. Luckless, has BOD played better then JD, in the TESTS?

It's an excuse but it isn't a fact.

wolfball wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:At outside centre on tour, yes, Notch, I think he has played better.

that is not the question though is it, not form "on tour" but in the TESTS. Not against the BaaBaas or some club team, in the tests. Luckless, has BOD played better then JD, in the TESTS?

he won't answer that.  He'll say Galtand doesn't agree that BOD played better (however limited - and the whole side played limited rugby) than Davies

Luckless must be dizzy chasing his tail. I'll say this nice and slowly in short sentences so you understand. Davies played two tests. BOD played two tests. BOD played better in two tests. BOD gets dropped. Something no add up. Me unhappy. Me want cookie.

O'Driscoll has played better than Davies in the Tests.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:O'Driscoll has played better than Davies in the Tests.

Gentleman

I think the BoD thing has been given way too much attention,I'd have picked him but i don't think it's an outrageous decision.

The real failure on the tour so far has been the boring bash it up and kick chase rugby the Lions have played.It doesn't matter who plays when you have such a conservative and almost cowardly gameplan.As an Irish fan I've been accustomed to watching a coach misuse the talent at his disposal so this is just another few games that must be endured until the revolution.

I hope the Lions win but I don't really care if they lose and I said the same thing before the team was picked for Saturday.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:At outside centre on tour, yes, Notch, I think he has played better.

The fact remains that if O'Driscoll had played as well as he can and has in the past, he'd be starting on Saturday.

I know you think that already- I still think it's utter nonsense so not much constructive debate will follow.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:
The real failure on the tour so far has been the boring bash it up and kick chase rugby the Lions have played.It doesn't matter who plays when you have such a conservative and almost cowardly gameplan.As an Irish fan I've been accustomed to watching a coach misuse the talent at his disposal so this is just another few games that must be endured until the revolution.

I hope the Lions win but I don't really care if they lose and I said the same thing before the team was picked for Saturday.

I think every fan outside of Ireland who wondered why some of us couldn't wait to get rid of Kidney can see why with this Lions debacle. A coach that never learns from his mistakes, who picks favourites over form, and plays reductive, negative rugby. The whole tour is straight out of the Kidney text book. At least Kidney had committed players to the cause who played with passion, even if the tactics were dreadful. Can't even say that about the Lions.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:I think the BoD thing has been given way too much attention,I'd have picked him but i don't think it's an outrageous decision.

The real failure on the tour so far has been the boring bash it up and kick chase rugby the Lions have played.It doesn't matter who plays when you have such a conservative and almost cowardly gameplan.As an Irish fan I've been accustomed to watching a coach misuse the talent at his disposal so this is just another few games that must be endured until the revolution.

I hope the Lions win but I don't really care if they lose and I said the same thing before the team was picked for Saturday.

It's true. This tour has been a bitter disappointment. It will all be over soon.

 Can someone tell these posters that the series stands at 1-1 and that we have a chance of winning a series for the first time in 16 years. I don't think people are aware of this. Honest, this is how things stand at present

RubyGuby wrote: Can someone tell these posters that the series stands at 1-1 and that we have a chance of winning a series for the first time in 16 years. I don't think people are aware of this. Honest, this is how things stand at present

Really? I thought the series was lost when Mike Philipps was selected, no?

RubyGuby wrote: Can someone tell these posters that the series stands at 1-1 and that we have a chance of winning a series for the first time in 16 years. I don't think people are aware of this. Honest, this is how things stand at present

The Lions isn't about winning,if it was then the concept would have been scrapped long ago.Imo the Lions is about showcasing the best talent talent that the 4 nations can put out,that hasn't happened as they've played such a horrible style.If they win playing like they have then I won't feel much pride in their achievement and if they lose then I'll be saddened that such a talented group have been wasted playing a safety first gameplan.

These boys did ok in 1971 and 1974 - Deva Vu is on its way


9 - Edwards
10 - Phil Bennett/Barry John
11 - JJ Williams
12 - John Dawes
13
14 - Gerald Davies
15 - JPR

RubyGuby wrote:These boys did ok in 1971 and 1974 - Deva Vu is on its way


9 - Edwards
10 - Phil Bennett/Barry John
11 - JJ Williams
12 - John Dawes
13
14 - Gerald Davies
15 - JPR

I'll be watching the game in lovely Resolven.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:If O'Driscoll's performances on tour and in the series so far had been sufficiently good, he wouldn't have been dropped. His form wouldn't have allowed it. I don't know why that's so hard to comprehend. But he hasn't played that well.

The problem with that logic is that O'Driscoll has played better than Davies in everyone's eyes bar Gatland's (and a few Davies' apologists).

One of Gatland's biggest mistakes is that he doesn't give the team any chance to develop a rhythm. He continues to make unforced changes every game to a side that has little enough experience as a unit in the first place. Dropping a leader like BOD who organises the backline defence by effecting another positional change (that will achieve nothing) is just stupid, never mind the performance injustice.

The only possible logical argument (without resorting to bizarre conspiracy theories) is that Gatland is so desperate to get Roberts lining out he wants to get as much familiarity outside him as possible in the shape of Davies. Maybe Howley has talked him into it, but he would have been far better served trying to ensure his backs got some ball in the first place rather than tinkering yet again with a backline that hasn't seen it.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

RDW_Scotland wrote:For a little light relief, I found this thread from the old BBC 606 from 2011 where people were talking about the test team for this lions tour - Courtney Laws was obviously the dogs baws around then!

http://www.bbc.co.uk/dna/606/A81102908

A few blasts from the past there....check this team out from JB ha ha ha

comment by JB123 (U14573098)


posted Feb 16, 2011

15. Foden
14. Bowe
13. Mark Bennett (Uncapped, probably starting 13 for Scotland by then though)
12. Hook
11. Ashton
10. Duncan Weir
9. Youngs
8. Heaslip/O'brian
7. Barclay (C)
6. Ferris/O'Brian
5. Davis/Lawes
4. Gray
3. Cole
2. Ford
1. Jenkins

ASBO - did you have two log-in's?

Not guilty, your honour! Altho I am most exceedingly happy at the sense shown by this like-minded individual!  

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: Can someone tell these posters that the series stands at 1-1 and that we have a chance of winning a series for the first time in 16 years. I don't think people are aware of this. Honest, this is how things stand at present

The Lions isn't about winning,if it was then the concept would have been scrapped long ago.Imo the Lions is about showcasing the best talent talent that the 4 nations can put out,that hasn't happened as they've played such a horrible style.If they win playing like they have then I won't feel much pride in their achievement and if they lose then I'll be saddened that such a talented group have been wasted playing a safety first gameplan.

Boom. He's nailed it in one. We can close the thread now.

HammerofThunor wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:These boys did ok in 1971 and 1974 - Deva Vu is on its way


9 - Edwards
10 - Phil Bennett/Barry John
11 - JJ Williams
12 - John Dawes
13
14 - Gerald Davies
15 - JPR

I'll be watching the game in lovely Resolven.

That is a right shxxhole - Get up to Glynneath with Tavis and the boys for the game or are you at the rugby club there ?????

RubyGuby wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:These boys did ok in 1971 and 1974 - Deva Vu is on its way


9 - Edwards
10 - Phil Bennett/Barry John
11 - JJ Williams
12 - John Dawes
13
14 - Gerald Davies
15 - JPR

I'll be watching the game in lovely Resolven.

That is a right shxxhole - Get up to Glynneath with Tavis and the boys for the game or are you at the rugby club there ?????

Don't know. Visiting in-laws. Usually watch games either at the rugby club or working men's club.

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: Can someone tell these posters that the series stands at 1-1 and that we have a chance of winning a series for the first time in 16 years. I don't think people are aware of this. Honest, this is how things stand at present

The Lions isn't about winning,if it was then the concept would have been scrapped long ago.Imo the Lions is about showcasing the best talent talent that the 4 nations can put out,that hasn't happened as they've played such a horrible style.If they win playing like they have then I won't feel much pride in their achievement and if they lose then I'll be saddened that such a talented group have been wasted playing a safety first gameplan.

It's a pretty defeatist attitude if it isn't about the win. What's the point otherwise?

The trouble with today (and probably Saturday) is people shouldn't go online straight after an event. The only thing that is worse, is there'll be drink involved on Saturday and the articles posted will be in poor taste, as they were last week.

HammerofThunor wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:

HammerofThunor wrote:

RubyGuby wrote:These boys did ok in 1971 and 1974 - Deva Vu is on its way


9 - Edwards
10 - Phil Bennett/Barry John
11 - JJ Williams
12 - John Dawes
13
14 - Gerald Davies
15 - JPR

I'll be watching the game in lovely Resolven.

That is a right shxxhole - Get up to Glynneath with Tavis and the boys for the game or are you at the rugby club there ?????

Don't know. Visiting in-laws. Usually watch games either at the rugby club or working men's club.

You'll be fine Hammer - You're with the Lions  

Someone should tell the current squad that the Lions isn't about winning. If the message gets there in time, they can save themselves the trouble of trying to win on Saturday.

Risca Rev wrote:It's a pretty defeatist attitude if it isn't about the win. What's the point otherwise?

The point, the only point, is four nations coming together as one team to be more than the sum of their parts and compete with the best in the world. This is one nation with special guest stars and tactics lifted straight from the Team Wales playbook.

This is no Lions side.

RubyGuby wrote:These boys did ok in 1971 and 1974 - Deva Vu is on its way


9 - Edwards
10 - Phil Bennett/Barry John
11 - JJ Williams
12 - John Dawes
13
14 - Gerald Davies
15 - JPR

Hmmmm missing 2 players, Geech and Irvine.

Irvine being the guy who nailed all those kicks to help the 74 invincible. Built on a pack of English, Irish and Scots.

And the first two Test XVs, Notch, were they Lions sides?

It is not that its not about winning. Its that its not about winning at all costs. I came to Lions late, only really got into the 2009 tour, and so dont care about this grand tradition that much. But losing the second test in 09 hurt me as much as an Irish loss would. Not because my favorite players played, but because of the WAY the Lions played in the middle of the ELV era. It was an amazing test series. This is not. I would prefer the lost 2009 vintage tour to winning the 2013 urine-poor table wine tour.

Risca Rev wrote:

asoreleftshoulder wrote:

RubyGuby wrote: Can someone tell these posters that the series stands at 1-1 and that we have a chance of winning a series for the first time in 16 years. I don't think people are aware of this. Honest, this is how things stand at present

The Lions isn't about winning,if it was then the concept would have been scrapped long ago.Imo the Lions is about showcasing the best talent talent that the 4 nations can put out,that hasn't happened as they've played such a horrible style.If they win playing like they have then I won't feel much pride in their achievement and if they lose then I'll be saddened that such a talented group have been wasted playing a safety first gameplan.

It's a pretty defeatist attitude if it isn't about the win. What's the point otherwise?

The trouble with today (and probably Saturday) is people shouldn't go online straight after an event. The only thing that is worse, is there'll be drink involved on Saturday and the articles posted will be in poor taste, as they were last week.

The answer to your question is in my post.

It's not defeatist it's just a different way of looking at it,don't get me wrong winning matters but there has to be more to it than that.If it is only about the win then I'd just prefer to see Ireland play and forget about the Lions altogether as the Lions don't win very often anyway and it could be argued that the Lions tour does harm to the players involved due to the pressures of such a tour after an already overlong season.

I would argue that any Lions side should contain representatives of all four nations ideally and I think the under-representation of Scotland was a disgrace on this tour but yeah- they were, playing a very limited brand of rugby and they failed to click. Gatland is responsible for that- he has failed to build a side that can win this series so he's gone running back to his Team Wales template and is hoping for the best.

It's a pretty unambitious approach he's taken and the Lions is ultimately all about ambition and daring. He's sold the idea of the Lions down the river with this selection and if you see it differently- fine. You can keep your f•cking Lions then. If this is what has become of the concept maybe its not worth preserving. I don't see much unity on show, nor do I see a team playing the kind of glorious rugby that makes you overlook the massive logistical knock-on it has for these players' pre-season.

wolfball wrote: But losing the second test in 09 hurt me as much as an Irish loss would. Not because my favorite players played, but because of the WAY the Lions played in the middle of the ELV era. It was an amazing test series. This is not.  I would prefer the lost 2009 vintage tour to winning the 2013 urine-poor table wine tour.

Somebody who gets it. These defeatist, negative Lions are no Lions of mine. I wish them good luck but I just don't care- I just don't see them as deserving based on their tactics so far.

Notch wrote:I would argue that any Lions side should contain representatives of all four nations ideally and I think the under-representation of Scotland was a disgrace on this tour but yeah- they were, playing a very limited brand of rugby and they failed to click. Gatland is responsible for that- he has failed to build a side that can win this series so he's gone running back to his Team Wales template and is hoping for the best.

It's a pretty unambitious approach he's taken and the Lions is ultimately all about ambition and daring. He's sold the idea of the Lions down the river with this selection and if you see it differently- fine. You can keep your f•cking Lions then. If this is what has become of the concept maybe its not worth preserving. I don't see much unity on show, nor do I see a team playing the kind of glorious rugby that makes you overlook the massive logistical knock-on it has for these players' pre-season.

Unity from who? Players seem fine.

Right, so the first two Test XVs, playing the Gatland gameplan, counted as Lions teams; the third XV, also likely to be playing the Gatland gameplan but with a few extra Welshmen, doesn't count as a Lions side.

Seriously, what other differences are there between the first two and the third?

Notch wrote:

wolfball wrote: But losing the second test in 09 hurt me as much as an Irish loss would. Not because my favorite players played, but because of the WAY the Lions played in the middle of the ELV era. It was an amazing test series. This is not.  I would prefer the lost 2009 vintage tour to winning the 2013 urine-poor table wine tour.

Somebody who gets it. These defeatist, negative Lions are no Lions of mine. I wish them good luck but I just don't care- I just don't see them as deserving based on their tactics so far.

    

Do they? I'm reckoning the players comments will be tightly controlled. Grant and Hogg, both vocal twitter posters have been real quiet for the last 3 weeks.

Grant especially seemed annoyed in his sparse tweets.

Maybe. Maybe not.

This is what Phil Bennett said,

"This has been a great tour, happy, players mixing with fans, everything's been lovely and... this morning it's all gone to pieces," said Bennett.

Don't you just love The Lions...

MrsP wrote:Maybe. Maybe not.

This is what Phil Bennett said,

"This has been a great tour, happy, players mixing with fans, everything's been lovely and... this morning it's all gone to pieces," said Bennett.

Does he or anybody know that though? Seems to be a pretty good atmosphere to me still. Even the "wronged" BOD has been willing to help Jamie Roberts out.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Right, so the first two Test XVs, playing the Gatland gameplan, counted as Lions teams; the third XV, also likely to be playing the Gatland gameplan but with a few extra Welshmen, doesn't count as a Lions side.

Are there any other differences between the first two and the third?

I didn't say it doesn't count, I said its a poor realisation of the concept. They are still the Lions, but I think when you've got guys in the team because of their familiarity with the Welsh gameplan and no other reason- it's a Lions team based on fear and an admission of this tours failure to live up to that concept of the best of four nations forming something thats more than the sum of its parts.

This is Gatland bottling it; going back to what he knows and picking a side thats based entirely on the side he normally coaches in terms of tactics and personnel. I'd say that makes a mockery of the Lions alright. You're welcome to your contrary opinion. All I see is a massive missed opportunity.