Lions team announced - AWJ captain & BOD dropped

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Given the whole Horwill incident that adds another interesting edge to Saturdays game!

Gatland names 10 Welshman in his starting XV.
And Richie Gray becomes this weeks token Scot...

1. Corbisiero,
2. Hibbard,
3. A Jones,
4. A W Jones (c),
5. Parling,
6. Lydiate,
7. O'Brien,
8. Faletau

9. Phillips
10. Sexton
11. North
12. Roberts
13. Davis
14. Bowe
15. Halfpenny

Bench - T Youngs, Vunipola, Cole, Gray, Tipuric, Murray, Farrell, Tuilagi.

MrsP wrote:Maybe. Maybe not.

This is what Phil Bennett said,

"This has been a great tour, happy, players mixing with fans, everything's been lovely and... this morning it's all gone to pieces," said Bennett.

That was related to the media wasn't it? In the article there was no mention of players. Just CW saying they should have rested rather than travelling to the beach

Some of the players should have stayed on the beach...it's about time for their holidays now anyway.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Right, so the first two Test XVs, playing the Gatland gameplan, counted as Lions teams; the third XV, also likely to be playing the Gatland gameplan but with a few extra Welshmen, doesn't count as a Lions side.

Are there any other differences between the first two and the third?

This is just overly simplistic thinking, and frankly nonsense. You and some of your cohorts think that our disquiet has to do with Welsh players. No, its Gatland. He doesn't learn from his mistakes. He doesn't address deficiencies in his tactics and his side. There is a way in which Lions tours are coached that might them an air of traditional and heritage. South Africa in 2009 and 1997. Geech was a man that got the Lions. Woodward, Henry and now Gatland haven't got a clue about it.

How many times has Gatland tried and failed with the same old tactics against Australia? What has he learned through this experience and what has he changed? Zip. The lineout is a problem? Let's name a hooker that can't throw straight. Hibbard should be nowhere near the squad let alone starting. He is just lucky that Best has been abject. AWJ as captain? A player so full of leadership qualities that Gatland steadfastly refuses to name him Welsh captain. A second row partnership of hard working but ineffectual players. AWJ has once again come in with an inflated reputation but failed to deliver in the test matches. Compare him to POC or Horwell. He isn't a leader of men. Gatland picks his third backrow, and possibly offers the most unbalanced on them all. Lydiate was brought in for his defensive ability. He missed tackles last week and did nothing else of note. Gatland brings in SOB but has no ball winner in the pack at all to free him up to carry the ball. Tipuric can do what Lydiate and Warburton do and a whole lot more. He picks Phillips, a player who is responsible for one of the single worst international performances I have seen at this level. Murray, who did well off the bench last week remains there. He keeps picking Sexton and having him lie deep to execute a kicking game that he is just not capable of doing. We know because we've watched Kidney try to do it for two years and it utterly failing. Enough ink has been spilt on BOD by now.

There are numerous other examples. The selections of Court and Shane Williams are contrary to everything the Lions stand for. Picking players for the tour party who are blatantly unfit and keeping one in the squad beyond the time when a real replacement could be name, leaving us with a lame duck 15. Do I need to go on? His management has been a debacle.

Gatland doesn't get the Lions, and he doesn't have a clue how to beat Australia. His response is to panic and pick players based on what he knows, not on form. Its 2005 all over again.

I can't imagine that the players have a mind set that is completely removed from that of the fans and pundits. I would think there might be some quiet consternation at the very least.

Where was all this disquiet before today's team announcement?

There is one element of the Lions that has brought a tear and a smile to my cynical heart; the Connacht, Leinster, Ulster and Munster men and women united! Until Sunday right lads and ladies?

Lets wait for the autobiographies to find out what has been going down.... maybe some delicious fights???  (verbal! for all the tut tut violence-isn't-the-answer chaps )  Maybe there were words spoken after the Saturday game and .... vengence is mine sayeth the Lord?

The Christmas book market will be lively in a few years.

Risca Rev wrote:

MrsP wrote:Maybe. Maybe not.

This is what Phil Bennett said,

"This has been a great tour, happy, players mixing with fans, everything's been lovely and... this morning it's all gone to pieces," said Bennett.

Does he or anybody know that though? Seems to be a pretty good atmosphere to me still. Even the "wronged" BOD has been willing to help Jamie Roberts out.

Isn't that the point though? Bennett is well qualified and positioned to comment and is articulating what the Lion's are about - that includes the fans following the thing, not just the team. If the fans become disillusioned by such obviously incompetent selection then the Lion's immortality is suddenly short-lived.

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Where was all this disquiet before today's team announcement?

In every thread. Some of us have been saying this before the test series and after each match. Gatland still hasn't learned anything.

 

How long before someone appears suggesting that none of this would have happened if they had only picked Earls at 12?

 

wolfball wrote:There is one element of the Lions that has brought a tear and a smile to my cynical heart; the Connacht, Leinster, Ulster and Munster men and women united! Until Sunday right lads and ladies?

Thats true actually. I think I may have even seen DOD admit Sexton was a good player  

Hookisms and Hyperbole wrote:

Luckless Pedestrian wrote:Where was all this disquiet before today's team announcement?

In every thread.  Some of us have been saying this before the test series and after each match.  Gatland still hasn't learned anything.  

I've been deliberately avoiding talking about the Lions since the first test but this is the final straw for me.

MrsP wrote:I can't imagine that the players have a mind set that is completely removed from that of the fans and pundits. I would think there might be some quiet consternation at the very least.

Well they can turn down their win bonus (if they win), should they feel not a part of it.

wolfball wrote:There is one element of the Lions that has brought a tear and a smile to my cynical heart; the Connacht, Leinster, Ulster and Munster men and women united! Until Sunday right lads and ladies?

Yeah...the cease-fire lasts til Sunday evening. We have to remain united for the after-game fun, which will be fun no matter how the result works out. Everyone is directed to bring their flak jackets and helmets as a precaution.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Do they? I'm reckoning the players comments will be tightly controlled. Grant and Hogg, both vocal twitter posters have been real quiet for the last 3 weeks.

Grant especially seemed annoyed in his sparse tweets.

I am sure you are correct, all 50 players prior to the tour signed agreements (including standby players) to toe the line so we don't have clowns undermining the management when Henry was running the show.

glamorganalun wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Do they? I'm reckoning the players comments will be tightly controlled. Grant and Hogg, both vocal twitter posters have been real quiet for the last 3 weeks.

Grant especially seemed annoyed in his sparse tweets.

I am sure you are correct, all 50 players prior to the tour signed agreements (including standby players) to toe the line so we don't have clowns undermining the management when Henry was running the show.

the only clown in this tour is the one in charge.

glamorganalun wrote:

I am sure you are correct, all 50 players prior to the tour signed agreements (including standby players) to toe the line so we don't have clowns undermining the management when Henry was running the show.

So there is a possibility that there are clowns hiding in the long grass until their contract obligations are over?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Do they? I'm reckoning the players comments will be tightly controlled. Grant and Hogg, both vocal twitter posters have been real quiet for the last 3 weeks.

Grant especially seemed annoyed in his sparse tweets.

I am sure you are correct, all 50 players prior to the tour signed agreements (including standby players) to toe the line so we don't have clowns undermining the management when Henry was running the show.

the only clown in this tour is the one in charge.

Rugger, you're having a good run here. You're keeping a smile on my face anyway, which is a big bonus.

MrsP wrote: 

How long before someone appears suggesting that none of this would have happened if they had only picked Earls at 12?

 

IMHO None of this would have happened if FatMan had only picked Earls at 12

Perhaps that's it. Without a guy like Powell on this tour Gatland has taken the role of tour clown on himself and is showing it through tactics and selection.

That Gatland...he's crazy

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

wolfball wrote:There is one element of the Lions that has brought a tear and a smile to my cynical heart; the Connacht, Leinster, Ulster and Munster men and women united! Until Sunday right lads and ladies?

Thats true actually. I think I may have even seen DOD admit Sexton was a good player  

And Sin é defend Heaslip!

Risca Rev wrote:

MrsP wrote:I can't imagine that the players have a mind set that is completely removed from that of the fans and pundits. I would think there might be some quiet consternation at the very least.

Well they can turn down their win bonus (if they win), should they feel not a part of it.

That's a bit of a non-sequitur, Rev? Have they been part of this tour at all now?

SecretFly wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:

glamorganalun wrote:

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:Do they? I'm reckoning the players comments will be tightly controlled. Grant and Hogg, both vocal twitter posters have been real quiet for the last 3 weeks.

Grant especially seemed annoyed in his sparse tweets.

I am sure you are correct, all 50 players prior to the tour signed agreements (including standby players) to toe the line so we don't have clowns undermining the management when Henry was running the show.

the only clown in this tour is the one in charge.

Rugger, you're having a good run here.  You're keeping a smile on my face anyway, which is a big bonus.

I do my best. Murray at wimbledon isn't helping my blood pressure either  

HammerofThunor wrote:Perhaps that's it. Without a guy like Powell on this tour Gatland has taken the role of tour clown on himself and is showing it through tactics and selection.

That Gatland...he's crazy

I thought that's why Matt Stevens went on tour? JusticeforFatty

LeinsterFan4life wrote:

wolfball wrote:There is one element of the Lions that has brought a tear and a smile to my cynical heart; the Connacht, Leinster, Ulster and Munster men and women united! Until Sunday right lads and ladies?

Thats true actually. I think I may have even seen DOD admit Sexton was a good player  

Yes i did. And i also said Gatland wouldn't have a clue how to use him. I also said Gatland would pick a mostly welsh side. He wouldn't have picked BOD if Roberts wasn't injured, and is reverting to type as a coach. Limited...

could someone tell hookisms that Elvis left the building quite some time ago, he seems to be stuck in a never-ending loop..

The Great Aukster wrote:

Isn't that the point though? Bennett is well qualified and positioned to comment and is articulating what the Lion's are about - that includes the fans following the thing, not just the team. If the fans become disillusioned by such obviously incompetent selection then the Lion's immortality is suddenly short-lived.

Its not the first time an Irishman has been treated shabily by the Lions - I seem to recall Moss Keane saying in his biography that Mike Gibson & Ciaran Fitzgerald were treated in a similar fashion.

Will look it up in his biography.

The Irish have no room for complaint! BOD missing out is a bit like the Greeks leaving Achilles in his tent or the Royal Navy sailing for Trafalgar with Nelson still in Portsmouth.

but your guys have been treated like royalty compared to the Scottish contingent. Grant and Maitland left on the bench for both tests, Hogg screwed around from day one and Gray (exactly the kind of heavy weight lock we need) has done nothing wrong picking splinters out of his erse in the Bench on Saturday.

The Scottish contingent must speak for themselves, I afraid Rugger. I offered them an early flight home on the Irish jet if they want it, that's the best I can do.

Appreciated!

Thank goodness that great lineout specialist Geoff Parling is picked. We'll need that midas touch that served us so well in the 2nd Test.....

On the BOD decision, I think it would have been equally harsh to drop Davies. I can see both sides of that particular argument, and had BOD been playing well then I'm sure his experience and gravitas would have counted in his favour, but Davies has played better rugby over the course of the tour (not that that criterion has necessarily worked its way through the rest of the team selection).

On the positive front I'm pleased to see Corbisiero back in the starting XV, and similarly I think Falatau to replace Heaslip is absolutely the right call. I thought Lydiate might make way for SOB at 6 with Tipuric starting at 7, but clearly dropping Lydiate was never going to be on Gatland's agenda. Tipuric will be an excellent impact sub though.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Thank goodness that great lineout specialist Geoff Parling is picked. We'll need that midas touch that served us so well in the 2nd Test.....

On the BOD decision, I think it would have been equally harsh to drop Davies. I can see both sides of that particular argument, and had BOD been playing well then I'm sure his experience and gravitas would have counted in his favour, but Davies has played better rugby over the course of the tour (not that that criterion has necessarily worked its way through the rest of the team selection).

On the positive front I'm pleased to see Corbisiero back in the starting XV, and similarly I think Falatau to replace Heaslip is absolutely the right call. I thought Lydiate might make way for SOB at 6 with Tipuric starting at 7, but clearly dropping Lydiate was never going to be on Gatland's agenda. Tipuric will be an excellent impact sub though.

  That's how to post a reasoned response. Well done FES.

i find it quite amusing that gatlands gameplan is being slated and in the same breath some posters are being nostalgic about the lions 2009 and how they played,

in that tour who was attack coach? who was forwards coach?

and is there not a scene on the lions dvd where geech is explaining to gerald davies that their intention was to smash the ball up the middle then go the same way to 'flash' back against what 'hopefully' would be a SA front five?

hmmm same way same way then flash back...sound familiar anyone?

for the record i am also a little dissapointed with the way wales play and i think it will be close on sat and can see why other nations are aggrieved

GavinDragon wrote:

for the record i am also a little dissapointed with the way wales play and i think it will be close on sat and can see why other nations are aggrieved

Thank you Gavin.  On another thread a Welsh guy thanked a poster for giving what he called a balanced and reasoned view of all the drama and controversy of today.  And I do the same to you for at least being the first Welsh person that I've seen who actually acknowledges that other Lions contributers might have legimate issues (whether agreed with or not) and aren't just whinging for the sake of it.

I have no problem saying that I would like the Lions to lose. To say I am not British & Irish if I'm not supporting them is a fallacy if I don't believe that the coaching setup has been actively attempting to involve all of Britain & Ireland from day 1.

Just imagine how fantastic our squad, chosen 23 and gameplan COULD have been? Remember before the tour started how everyone was lining up potential squads of 35 and comparing it to the Australia squad? On paper we had them on a 3-0, and I know Oz never lie down but I don't think that much has changed. We should never have been trying to win on the last day with this kind of gameplan with the raw talent at our disposal from the 4 nations, but here we are!

I feel like the Lions WILL win , and you can bet your erse that if they do , the Welsh contingent of the "British & Irish" Lions will take it upon themselves to bask in glory and point out in years to come that the Welsh coach and mainly Welsh players won it ... whilst saying right now that the rest of us are not supporting it by wanting it to lose. Double standards don't you think? Will all the Welsh, if they really think we should shut up and support it despite our best players being constantly overlooked, forever call this a B&IL win in years to come? I highly doubt it.

I hope Gatland's Lions lose. As for next tour, I hope it really symbolises the best of Britain & Ireland.

Gatland would have been absolutely demolished had we been playing NZ in a series so the sad thing is that if we get a better coach next time around we could do things much better but still lose. Don't get me wrong, Wales are a good side, clearly the best in the annual tournament of Northern Hemisphere over the past decade, but they were/are NOT the side to beat Oz down under.

To paraphrase you earlier Fly: "the aggrieved fans must speak for themselves, I afraid".

SecretFly wrote:

GavinDragon wrote:

for the record i am also a little dissapointed with the way wales play and i think it will be close on sat and can see why other nations are aggrieved

Thank you Gavin.  On another thread a Welsh guy thanked a poster for giving what he called a balanced and reasoned view of all the drama and controversy of today.  And I do the same to you for at least being the first Welsh person that I've seen who actually acknowledges that other Lions contributers might have legimate issues (whether agreed with or not) and aren't just whinging for the sake of it.

no problem i know id be fuming if it was a close as some of the calls have been.

I actually fall into the sentiment that the lions are more than about winning and the tours ARE about ALL nations coming together as one and playing greater than the sum of their parts. That is what makes them special

I would like to see longer tours if im honest to give more time for players to gel,

To paraphrase a great philosopher...

its only Australia ffs...get a grip

Willie John McBride giving Gatland the thumbs down there on BBCNI ....

funnyExiledScot wrote:Thank goodness that great lineout specialist Geoff Parling is picked. We'll need that midas touch that served us so well in the 2nd Test.....

On the BOD decision, I think it would have been equally harsh to drop Davies. I can see both sides of that particular argument, and had BOD been playing well then I'm sure his experience and gravitas would have counted in his favour, but Davies has played better rugby over the course of the tour (not that that criterion has necessarily worked its way through the rest of the team selection).

On the positive front I'm pleased to see Corbisiero back in the starting XV, and similarly I think Falatau to replace Heaslip is absolutely the right call. I thought Lydiate might make way for SOB at 6 with Tipuric starting at 7, but clearly dropping Lydiate was never going to be on Gatland's agenda. Tipuric will be an excellent impact sub though.

Nice to have another sensible Scot along with Flyhalf, I believe Gray should have been involved in all three tests, I am sorry I just don't rate Parling but I will be more than happy if he has a stormer.

I am a lot happier with this team, I am not surprised BOD was dropped, he was kept in cotton wool and only played against the weakest teams, but he has not delivered so Gatland has gone with the best centre partnership from the 6N as there is no understanding with Davies and BOD. Before the tour POC, BOD, Bowe, AWJ, AJ, Lydiate, Phillips, Sexton and Warburton were in the team by default, only BOD and Phillips have not delivered but, Phillips was dropped so BOD is going the same way for the third test.

I can't underestand why the Irish are so worked up, Bowe walks straight into the team, the top try scorer is dropped, Heaslip has not played badly but hardly set the world on fire. Sexton had a good first game but poor ball from Youngs did not help, now I know why Farrell was poor against Wales. POC and Zebo should be proud of their efforts and Murray should have started last week but Phillips was odds on but needs a big game.

Reading the mail today, they reported 4 Tigers players went off on their own for a coffee, is this a sign they have not been team players/outcasts? I read one of A Jones's post on the BBC web site saying he shared a room with one of the Tigers he commented at least it split up their group.

glamorganalun wrote:Reading the mail today, they reported 4 Tigers players went off on their own for a coffee, is this a sign they have not been team players/outcasts? I read one of A Jones's post on the BBC web site saying he shared a room with one of the Tigers he commented at least it split up their group.

Well the same article had Jones saying he other Jones, Hibbard and Evans have gone for coffee by themselves the day before a match for the last 5 years. Does that mean they aren't Wales team players or outcasts?

Seems Gatland is bigger than the team. His selections have made it more about him and his choices than about the team and the players. I hope Gatland loses on Saturday.

O'Driscoll 34. Maybe he was just bollixed after playing two tests and it was showing in training? Time waits for no man. And he's been at the top longer than almost anyone. In fact I don't remember him being dropped for any team ever in his whole career. But it had to happen eventually.

Best Wales side Gats has picked in a long while - should do very well in the 6N.

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

MrsP wrote: 

How long before someone appears suggesting that none of this would have happened if they had only picked Earls at 12?

 

IMHO None of this would have happened if FatMan had only picked Earls at 12

 I make that about 10 mins!

The Irish have certainly overtaken the Scots in the Whinge Rankings. BOD's form this season doesn't even merit his selection tbh. Though I still would have paired him with Roberts and brought him off Tuilagi 50-60 minutes into the game.

The Saint wrote:The Irish have certainly overtaken the Scots in the Whinge Rankings. BOD's form this season doesn't even merit his selection tbh. Though I still would have paired him with Roberts and brought him off Tuilagi 50-60 minutes into the game.

Yeah, Saint. Thanks for the quality Heads-up on BOD's season. If you say it is't true.

Geez this is the Henry selections all over again. As far as I'm concerned the players- practically all of them, have been poor in this series. The almost negligible amount of effective attacking, near try scoring chances this series closely reflects the same efforts of most of the 6N matches, AI's and summer tours last year.

The Ozzies have had enough things go wrong themselves this series that a side with real quality would have put them away by now.

BOD's not playing because he wasnt effective. Whoevers taking his place might not be either but at least Gatland giving the guys the chance to. BOD hasnt in two tests, so try someone else.

Youngs was so so so now Gatland is going back to the man with the big match temperament. For me that is sound selection policy.

ALL players on this tour need to be able to step up to the plate...most havnt. Don't blame the coach for that.

I'm not a fan of Gats myself but I have to ask what he must think about some of the rubbish he's having to put out on he field. If we want accountability, lets start with the guys directly responsible for putting the points on the board.

Taylorman wrote:

BOD's not playing because he wasnt effective. Whoevers taking his place might not be either but at least Gatland giving the guys the chance to. BOD hasnt in two tests, so try someone else.

Did you see the games? The whoever was beside him in both games. He had his chance too. The 'someone else' was tried and played worse than BOD..which must be saying something considering how terrible BOD was....

I give up on the curious logic used through the day.

Notch wrote:

Risca Rev wrote:It's a pretty defeatist attitude if it isn't about the win. What's the point otherwise?

The point, the only point, is four nations coming together as one team to be more than the sum of their parts and compete with the best in the world. This is one nation with special guest stars and tactics lifted straight from the Team Wales playbook.

This is no Lions side.

So true Notch

Gatland says he used his "head not his heart" in deciding to drop Brian O'Driscoll.

Really!

Shame he didn't use his head for the 2nd test or the selections for this game too.

I don't think I've ever felt like this before a Lions game, I really couldn't care less about the result and have just sold my 2013 Lions shirt on ebay.