Farrell, close but no cigar!

by Knackeredknees Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:48 pm

Who else feels that Owen won't step on the pitch in anger again this week?

Played out of his skin(bar the HK game) changed his style to a flatter more attacking game, passed well and did everything he was accused of not being able to do.

Now after two full games of watching sexton struggle and not play to his best, while gatland refuses to use his bench to change the game. Will Owen be the only player to be on the bench for all three tests and not get a min game time, even if sexton is not at his best

by RuggerRadge2611 Wed Jul 03, 2013 12:51 pm

I feel for Farrell, I feel more for Grant though.

Grant watched the Lions scrum get violated last weekend and then continued to watch as Vinapola began to black out through exhaustion, and still didn't get on the pitch.

by the-goon Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:18 pm

Because Sexton is a much better player than Farrell. It's quite simple really. He has been playing well despite the negative tactics and selection around him. Just because he doesn't kick the goals doesn't mean he has been quiet. His field kicking has been very good and has taken the ball to line. Let's be honest, if the Lions are 2 points down with 2 minutes left on the clock and in drop goal range, who do you want in the pocket? Sexton, no question.

Farrell is injury cover this year, in 4 years time it could all be different..

by fa0019 Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:27 pm

up until 93 there was no such thing as subs... unless a player got knocked out.

by Knackeredknees Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:28 pm

the-goon wrote:Because Sexton is a much better player than Farrell. It's quite simple really. He has been playing well despite the negative tactics and selection around him. Just because he doesn't kick the goals doesn't mean he has been quiet. His field kicking has been very good and has taken the ball to line. Let's be honest, if the Lions are 2 points down with 2 minutes left on the clock and in drop goal range, who do you want in the pocket? Sexton, no question.

Farrell is injury cover this year, in 4 years time it could all be different..

I agree sexton is a better player, but when that player is not at his best, and the game has been very physical why not sub him and bring on some fresh legs? Same with mako, blowing out of his arse and refused to sub him.

Think gatland has decided who he will sub and when and won't change that

by beshocked Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:29 pm

ruggerradge how many articles do you need to talk about the golden boy from Glasgow?

He already has plenty.

the-goon Farrell suits Gatland's style of play better though. Sexton did also miss touch with a penalty kick. He was hardly faultless. Some of his decision making like the rest of the backs was questionable.

I would say Sexton played alright but not well. The backs were ineffectual in attack collectively.

No tries, no linebreaks. Like the rest of the backs Sexton must take some of the blame for this.

Knackeredknees I do agree that if Farrell played like Sexton did he would have been ripped to pieces.

by fa0019 Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:33 pm

Sexton has never had the platform, to be honest Farrell would have done just as good a job with this side.

by pbuk0 Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:39 pm

Sexton is the better attacking player (although showed nothing last match)... Farrell is the better kicker / Defender but Lions don't need his kicking, as they have Leigh halfpenny..
So no need to bring on Farrell unless Halfpenny or Sexton are injured..

by **rodders** Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:46 pm

Sexton has been the best player, along with Halfpenny, by a country mile over two tests.

He's also provided the only leadership along with BOD and O'Connell.

Warburton has been anonomous apart from mumbling to the ref every now and again and the pack was rudderless last week.

Dropping Sexton would be suicidal now that BOD is out.

by Scrumpy Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:48 pm

Farrell would have kicked the last sec penalty in the 2nd test.

by flyhalffactory Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:48 pm

beshocked wrote:ruggerradge how many articles do you need to talk about the golden boy from Glasgow?

He already has plenty.

the-goon Farrell suits Gatland's style of play better though. Sexton did also miss touch with a penalty kick. He was hardly faultless. Some of his decision making like the rest of the backs was questionable.

I would say Sexton played alright but not well. The backs were ineffectual in attack collectively.

No tries, no linebreaks. Like the rest of the backs Sexton must take some of the blame for this.

Knackeredknees I do agree that if Farrell played like Sexton did he would have been ripped to pieces.

I have been mightily impressed with Farrell defence, attack and kicking he has improved week on week, and looked seriously good in his last game and his kicking percentages are better than 1/2ps. Its a mystery why he has been dropped.

You are only as good as your weakest links. Parling and Mako are our weakest links, there is no justification in Gray or Grant not in their place.

by SecretFly Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:49 pm

Drop Sexton, O'Brien and Bowe. It's looking like TeamUK now anyway. Enjoy yourselves, the Irish contingent should take a quick plane home and watch it on telly. We'll take the Scots with us if they've packed early.

by SecretFly Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:51 pm

VictorU3 wrote:Farrell would have kicked the last sec penalty in the 2nd test.

No he wouldn't. Like Sexton, he would have given the shot to Halfpenny. Sexton dropped a goal from that distance, never mind a penalty.

by Scrumpy Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:52 pm

SecretFly wrote:
VictorU3 wrote:Farrell would have kicked the last sec penalty in the 2nd test.

No he wouldn't. Like Sexton, he would have given the shot to Halfpenny. Sexton dropped a goal from that distance, never mind a penalty.

I guess we'll never know.

by Knackeredknees Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:53 pm

SecretFly wrote:Drop Sexton, O'Brien and Bowe. It's looking like TeamUK now anyway. Enjoy yourselves, the Irish contingent should take a quick plane home and watch it on telly. We'll take the Scots with us if they've packed early.

I'm not advocating or calling for sexton to be dropped, I've started he is the better player. I'm just stumped as why he's on the bench and when were in a defensive game giving sexton a breather and protecting him for the last 20, wasn't in gats plans?

And victor that kick was out of Owens range, he would have failed as well

by flyhalffactory Wed Jul 03, 2013 1:54 pm

SecretFly wrote:Drop Sexton, O'Brien and Bowe. It's looking like TeamUK now anyway. Enjoy yourselves, the Irish contingent should take a quick plane home and watch it on telly. We'll take the Scots with us if they've packed early.

If I come home early as well....... Can I have ice-cream on the plane please, and can I sit next to Brian

by beshocked Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:20 pm

flyhalffactory will you ever stop talking about Grant? Even on an article about another player you can't stop yourself. I know you think Grant is a deity but not everyone feels the same. Sorry.

It was poor decision for Halfpenny to go for goal at the end (was it his call?) Halfpenny doesn't have the distance as shown by an earlier miss. He's still a very good kicker just not at that distance.

The Lions should have carried on with ball in hand.

Nor Sexton or Farrell would have kicked that one at the end either.

The game was lost when the lineout was not secured in the 78th minute/ when Australia scored their try.

by SecretFly Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:28 pm

flyhalffactory wrote:
SecretFly wrote:Drop Sexton, O'Brien and Bowe. It's looking like TeamUK now anyway. Enjoy yourselves, the Irish contingent should take a quick plane home and watch it on telly. We'll take the Scots with us if they've packed early.

If I come home early as well....... Can I have ice-cream on the plane please, and can I sit next to Brian

Brian doesn't fly commercial. He takes clouds.

by Guest Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:33 pm

VictorU3 wrote:Farrell would have kicked the last sec penalty in the 2nd test.

Give it up Hersh. It would've been his first kick at goal, so you have no idea what his range would've been like. Halfpenny was the more likely to make it and he didn't have enough.

Farrell should definitely get twenty mins minimum if things aren't going well, but definitely deserves to come on regardless. Not been too impressed with Sexton.

by nobbled Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:33 pm

I have a feeling Farrell will play - only we'lll see him at 12. He's the only possible cover for the two injured players we're fielding.
It's going to be a fierce physical contest and neither Tuilagi or Roberts are 100%.
If come the day either aren't well enough to take the field he will definitely get game time at 12.
Should have had a specialist 12 on the bench but hey ho!

by nobbled Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:37 pm

Can't help feeling the backs are getting the blame for not producing when the possession they got (what little they did get) was generally crap. Yeah the forwards secured the possession okay statistically, but it was always scrambling back and never going forward. The only way that works is if you have pace and guile in the backs - especially at wing - Gatland went for power and if you're going backwards that's no help.

by beshocked Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:46 pm

nobbled if Farrell is brought on I expect he'll be the new scapegoat if the Lions lose. Of course he might have to compete with Mako if he comes on.

Surely BOD is guile personified?

Pretty much all the ball the backs got they kicked away.

The Lions made a lot of turnovers but was this turned into anything meaningful? No.

Neither the forwards nor the backs made much ground with ball in hand.

Poor decision making by both the backs and forwards in my opinion was also key to the Lions defeat.

by SecretFly Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:51 pm

beshocked wrote:nobbled if Farrell is brought on I expect he'll be the new scapegoat if the Lions lose. Of course he might have to compete with Mako if he comes on.

Surely BOD is guile personified?

Pretty much all the ball the backs got they kicked away.

The Lions made a lot of turnovers but was this turned into anything meaningful? No.

Neither the forwards nor the backs made much ground with ball in hand.

Poor decision making by both the backs and forwards in my opinion was also key to the Lions defeat.

They did all that for 80 minutes with professional, some highly decorated, coaches looking on??? They did all that 'poor decision making' through two halves with a break in the middle for some serious chat?
Gatland was responsible for tactics.... that he immediately passed on to his players in his post match interview. Bad decision making, being smarter with the ball............ yadda, yadda, yadda.

by beshocked Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:55 pm

Secretfly sorry I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.

Who do you think is guilty?

by doctor_grey Wed Jul 03, 2013 2:59 pm

Knackeredknees wrote:Who else feels that Owen won't step on the pitch in anger again this week?

I actually think that if the Lions are in with a shot, he would end up taking the kick at goal. Halfpenny, who has been strong as nails in this tour is about to run out of petrol. The Sexton-Farrell-Tuilagi mid-filed which will be on the pitch at the end will have Farrell as the kicker.

by SecretFly Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:04 pm

beshocked wrote:Secretfly sorry I don't quite understand the point you are trying to make.

Who do you think is guilty?

Gatland and coaches. Grim, containing, defensive negative tactics that he felt sure would be enough to take the series.

by nobbled Wed Jul 03, 2013 3:23 pm

beshocked wrote:nobbled if Farrell is brought on I expect he'll be the new scapegoat if the Lions lose. Of course he might have to compete with Mako if he comes on.

Surely BOD is guile personified?

Pretty much all the ball the backs got they kicked away.

The Lions made a lot of turnovers but was this turned into anything meaningful? No.

Neither the forwards nor the backs made much ground with ball in hand.

Poor decision making by both the backs and forwards in my opinion was also key to the Lions defeat.

Agreed - Farrell will always be unpopular in some quarters regardless of what he actually does. Being hyped by the English media means he'll instantly gain detratctors elsewhere. Sometimes it's deserved, sometimes not.

BOD is guile personified - but you need some pace somewhere to capitalise on it. If BOD makes a half break you need someone quick to make something of it.

Australlia played well - a factor not many have bothered to mention - the pressure they put on the Lions caused them to make poor choices leading to more pressure.

by king_carlos Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:22 pm

I do feel for Farrell but there are a fair few players I feel very sorry for on this tour even omitting guys who were unfortunate with injury.

Gray - Has done everything he realistically could to deserve a start but has only just got a place on the bench.

Hogg - Messed around badly with the FH nonsense so that he didn't get a chance to make a case for the 15 shirt. Coming into the tour he could've been a key figure if given a chance but was so overplayed in the warm-up games he seemed to burn out.

Tipuric - Came into the tour as the stand-out 7 in the NH but has only just made the bench. He could've excelled in Aus with hard pitches and a fast paced game plan looking to play rugby rather than predominantly trying to stop the opposition from playing.

Grant - Deserved to tour in the first squad IMO but was overlooked, a bit unlucky but nothing drastic. Then had to sit on the bench for the full 80 on Saturday whilst Mako visibly ran himself into the ground.

Throw in O'Driscoll, Heaslip and Tom Youngs who didn't deserve to be dropped this weekend in my eyes and Ben Youngs who hadn't done anything to warrant not getting a place on the bench at least.

by lostinwales Wed Jul 03, 2013 4:29 pm

It wouldnt surprise me if OF and MT didnt make it onto the pitch unless there were injuries

by Exiledinborders Wed Jul 03, 2013 5:26 pm

Sexton has been poor. What has he created in two tests. Prior to series I would have picked him but if something is not working changes need to be made. I can see him playing to the end of the third (I suspect losing) test. Sadly Gatland has proved himself to be stubborn sticking to Plan A even though is is not working and did not work innumerable times before when used by Wales.

by Scrumpy Wed Jul 03, 2013 7:39 pm

lostinwales wrote:It wouldnt surprise me if OF and MT didnt make it onto the pitch unless there were injuries

Roberts won't last 80mins of Gatlandball seeing as he hasn't played for 3 weeks.

by majesticimperialman Wed Jul 03, 2013 8:06 pm

I think Farrel ( OWEN) that is was only selected on the tour because Andy his dad is a coach. The reason Sexton is selected to start and not Farrell, is Gatland's way of saying I am in charge of selection.

It has nothing to do with how good/bad Sexton is playing.

by Shifty Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:01 pm

majesticimperialman wrote:I think Farrel ( OWEN) that is was only selected on the tour because Andy his dad is a coach. The reason Sexton is selected to start and not Farrell, is Gatland's way of saying I am in charge of selection.

It has nothing to do with how good/bad Sexton is playing.

100% agree with this, I was going to post the same thing.

No way on gods green earth should Farrell be on this tour ahead of Dan Biggar, you only have to look at Dan Biggar in the 6 Nations to see how well he did. Granted he had one charged down kick against Ireland while under pressure which eventually led to a try when Cuthbert got caught out of position but other than that he was amazing, and that deft chip against France for North's try was incredible.

Farrell and indeed any professional fly half can look world class with a platform, and lets be honest in the warm up games the Lions were totally dominant. Yet under pressure Farrell has gone to pieces, the Heinaken Cup the latter Aviva Premiership games, and the 6 Nations in Cardiff, the kid was head shot. That's not meant to be insulting clearly he has talent and potential, but dumping the weight of the world on his shoulders and expecting miracles isn't going to help him, and Farrell needs a few years to learn just like any other player.

by doctor_grey Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:10 pm

Owen Farrell, saviour of the free world wrote:I eat Dan Biggar and his family for lunch

by king_carlos Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:29 pm

Farrell has also been at the helm for a tight Prem final win against Leicester, away 6 Nations wins against Ireland and France and a victory against the All Blacks. On top of that he also played a key role in Saracens topping the table in the AP and reaching the semi-finals of the LV Cup and Heineken.

I'm not Farrell's biggest fan (nor a big detractor for that matter) but if we want to knock a player down for his clubs performance last season then Farrell is in a much better position than Biggar for a shouting contest. thumbsup

That said I don't really think there was much between Farrell and Biggar as options for the Lions, we knew before the tour that all the options after Sexton were a step down Sexton was in top form.

by Brendan Wed Jul 03, 2013 9:51 pm

I think these post sum up what welsh people have been saying.

When Gats has his first choice 15 he does fine. Once they get injured or lose form he doesn't know what to do.

The fact that he has players go from playing to not on bench and vica versa must mess with players belief in themselves.

Farrel should come on more, as some will know i'm not a farrel fan but it might make Aus think if we changed things round and he is more suited to Gatball.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:22 pm

I'm not sorry for Farrell, he hasn't been needed because the Lions haven't gained any parity up front.
Farrell would get murdered behind this struggling pack.

Sexton has "as i expected" added nothing!
Never rated the lad,seriously struggling to control the game. Blame tactics all you want but a good 10 takes the game by the scruff of the neck and gives his team mates what is needed,and the Lions have needed territory.

Also his wrap around pass he does with BOD is about as predictable as the recationto BOD being dropped!
The Aussies saw it coming a mile off.

by SecretFly Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:25 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:I'm not sorry for Farrell, he hasn't been needed because the Lions haven't gained any parity up front.
Farrell would get murdered behind this struggling pack.

Sexton has "as i expected" added nothing!

Joined up thinking.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:41 pm

But Sexton should handle it better because he is far more experienced

by Brendan Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:42 pm

Is DL and Warbs not in the back row because they can prevent Aus getting fast ball and allow us to get fast ball. Or was it another reason.

Farrel would have done fine and Sexton has his hands tied with what he can do.
If players are told to kick if its in their half whose fault is it if they create nothing.

If the pack knows its getting kicked away why worry about the FH getting bad ball, after all they are the ones that have to run 20-30m and fight for the ball again.

by SecretFly Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:43 pm

Clutching at straws.

Sexton is a professional..he needs a functioning team designed to play a running game to assist and guide them to do it. Gatland was playing caution instead and Ireland and Irish players are sorely sick of that gameplan.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:47 pm

Would O'Gara not take the initiative?
Seen it plenty of times,O'Gara clearly taking it upon himself to stick the ball down in the opposing 22.

by DeludedOptimistorjustDave Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:50 pm

But Ireland are hardly the AllBlacks, Irish rugby is built around two of the most current negative facets of play!
Dropping the scrum and the choke tackle.

Sexton "as i expected" has offered nothing, but to be fair we seriously have lack of talent at 10 in the Northern Hemisphere

by SecretFly Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:53 pm

DeludedOptimistorjustDave wrote:But Ireland are hardly the AllBlacks, Irish rugby is built around two of the most current negative facets of play!
Dropping the scrum and the choke tackle.

Sexton "as i expected" has offered nothing, but to be fair we seriously have lack of talent at 10 in the Northern Hemisphere

Yeah..I'll leave you with that thought then, Dave.

by Shifty Wed Jul 03, 2013 10:53 pm

Lets be honest Sexton is the best of an average bunch of players with Biggar just behind him.

In truth in European rugby, we really do not have a world class fly half to lace the boots of players like Jonathan Davies, Phil Bennett, Barry John or even players like Ronan O'Gara, Neil Jenkins and Johnny Wilkinson at the moment.

by RanjitPatel Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:13 pm

Farrell appears to have been underrated by many (bordering on vilified). I think that his 'no show' in the Wales game has seriously affected Gatland's confidence in him for a test match. This tour has probably come too soon for him but the experience will be invaluable as a result of the Wales game.

Also it seems that Biggars 6 Nations performances get the full hyperbole treatment on here. He's not in the squad because he's not good enough and only played for Wales as they never had another fly half.

by SecretFly Wed Jul 03, 2013 11:25 pm

Shifty wrote:Lets be honest Sexton is the best of an average bunch of players with Biggar just behind him.

In truth in European rugby, we really do not have a world class fly half to lace the boots of players like Jonathan Davies, Phil Bennett, Barry John or even players like Ronan O'Gara, Neil Jenkins and Johnny Wilkinson at the moment.

Sexton ..... Laugh

he's been positioned nicely for a fall............... You just gotta have a fall-guy, and a few of them have already been executed before the final day. 5 more remaining.

by yappysnap Thu Jul 04, 2013 11:33 am

I must have imagined the amazing performances that Sexton pulled out of the bag when coached by coaches who actually like their team to play rugby.

by beshocked Thu Jul 04, 2013 12:03 pm

well said king carlos.

Ranjitpatel I agree. The problem in that Wales game is that the English pack was getting mullered at scrum time. The pack in general were not doing their job properly.

Plus Farrell did not get help from his fellow backs. Tuilagi blew a golden try scoring opportunity early on which could have settled England nerves.

Farrell like pretty much every fly half struggles without a decent platform. Even Carter struggled when NZ were getting beaten up by the England pack last november. His composure was lost - two easy kicks missed in the early exchanges.

Farrell was poor vs Toulon and Saints but again his pack was getting beaten up.

When Farrell's pack has laid him a decent platform he has made the most of it.

by MotelMoneyMurderMadness Thu Jul 04, 2013 1:18 pm

Shifty wrote:Lets be honest Sexton is the best of an average bunch of players with Biggar just behind him.

In truth in European rugby, we really do not have a world class fly half to lace the boots of players like Jonathan Davies, Phil Bennett, Barry John or even players like Ronan O'Gara, Neil Jenkins and Johnny Wilkinson at the moment.

Now then, would Wilkinson have nailed that penalty?

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