So? No Hope Then?

I just can't believe the vitriol on here? People have just backed themselves into a corner and put themselves in a no win situation should the Lions triumph on Saturday - It looks a 50/50 game but has a Lions team ever gone into a deciding match with the series levelled at 1-1 with so much negativity and toxicity. Good luck to Gatland, the coaching team and the 23 on Saturday? Take it to them boys for 80 minutes. Time to tie the Kangaroo down.  

+ 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

I'm not sure people have backed themselves into a corner Ruby. You are right there is too much vitriol, but it was ever thus unfortunately.

My sadness is not that 10 players in the starting line up are Welsh, but that Gatland appears to me to have backed himself into a corner with a lack of plan B and a couple of questionable selections/ommissions in the initial tour party.

Having said that, as we going to be playing Gatlandball, he has now done the right thing and picked a team equipped to do it. Whether we can win playing Gatlandball against the Aussies is open to debate, but at least he has given himself a chance with the XV he has selected.

Ruby, people criticising Gatland's negative tactics that simply aim to smother/batter the Aussies doesn't mean they're not supporting the Lions. I think we're allowed to have opinions rather than just following the 'trust Gats' line.

It's just disappointing how it's turning out.

I want a win for the Lions and I want to see some good, creative rugby with a more flexible game plan and options to bring the best out of the players.

Sadly, I don't think I'll see any of that.

Cyril wrote:Ruby, people criticising Gatland's negative tactics that simply aim to smother/batter the Aussies doesn't mean they're not supporting the Lions. I think we're allowed to have opinions rather than just following the 'trust Gats' line.

It's just disappointing how it's turning out.

I want a win for the Lions and I want to see some good, creative rugby with a more flexible game plan and options to bring the best out of the players.

Sadly, I don't think I'll see any of that.

What Cyril said... 

RubyGuby wrote:I just can't believe the vitriol on here? People have just backed themselves into a corner and put themselves in a no win situation should the Lions triumph on Saturday - It looks a 50/50 game but has a Lions team ever gone into a deciding match with the series levelled at 1-1 with so much negativity and toxicity. Good luck to Gatland, the coaching team and the 23 on Saturday? Take it to them boys for 80 minutes. Time to tie the Kangaroo down.  

Well Done - couldn't have put it better.

I'm pretty disappointed with the pettiness that has gone on through the tour. All this Wions and Gatlandball nonsense is pretty petty and all this over analysis of players by the experts on here is pretty disappointing too.

I think it's a pretty sad state of affairs when people want a team/player to fail, just do they can act all I told you so.

Come on the Lions.

For your OP Ruby ?.. no!

Please write up a set of guidelines as to what we can and cannot say Risca. I'd like to make the comment that a 1 point win preceded by a 2 point one suggests there is a great deal of hope for the Lions and whatever the result it's likely to be very close but I'm not sure if this is over analysis.  

When you consider the fact we were big favourites for the series going in, a lucky 2-1 win will hardly be enough to validate Gatland for his failure to develop beyond his 'Team Wales' template.

If Australia do win, I will be disappointed. But it will good for rugby if the team that values skill and creativity beats the team that depends on rigid tactics, a negative kicking game and physical power. I suspect that thats the conflict for many other rugby fans as well as me. You want to see good rugby being played and dropping the only centre in the original touring party with an iota of creativity is hardly a good sign we'll get that at long last.

This team selection is the latest in a series of blunders that have seen a series that looked unwinnable from an Aussie perspective come down to a 50/50 call on the last weekend of the tour. We might win this series in spite of the coaches input, but I wouldn't say I've enjoyed this tour as much as 2009 either way.

It is normal to debate and disagree

The fact that Gatland has set up the squad and tactics to a defensive and imo wrong formula means that I am disappointed

I firmly believe that this Ozzie squad was there for the taking and the fact that we are still at 1 all is a miracle (we could not unlock their defence in the first test even with a 7 in the centre!!!!!!)

I am not going to stop having an opinion just because people say that is anti lions

I want the lions to win. I just wish this tour inspired me - but in fact it has not. In fact it has really been an uninspiring and dull tour and I think that is down to Gatlands tactics

Added to the fact that he lied to our faces about selecting on form, means I have a sour taste in my mouth

And on a final note, people keep ramming down our throats to back the lions regardless of how many of you nations players are in it - that is really easy to say when you have a large representation - much more difficult to do when no-one from your nation is playing - it is a fact of life - so please stop telling us how we should feel -

Go Lions

Ozzy3213 wrote:I'm not sure people have backed themselves into a corner Ruby.  You are right there is too much vitriol, but it was ever thus unfortunately.

My sadness is not that 10 players in the starting line up are Welsh, but that Gatland appears to me to have backed himself into a corner with a lack of plan B and a couple of questionable selections/ommissions in the initial tour party.

Having said that, as we going to be playing Gatlandball, he has now done the right thing and picked a team equipped to do it.  Whether we can win playing Gatlandball against the Aussies is open to debate, but at least he has given himself a chance with the XV he has selected.

Totally agree! As you say, Gatland has tried two different teams, its not won the series. So he is reverting to what he knows, hence the 10 Welsh players and big ball carriers. May not be enough to beat the Wallabies or might just right.

I think he has been weak to not bring Cuthbert back into the equation, as his omission could be crucial. He was after all the man who scored two tries vs England in 6N, during the a huge match and he also scored a well worked try in the first test. His exclusion is more relevant than BOD's if you ask me.

Once the Welshmen have ground down the Aussies for 60 mins, and we bring on a fresh English front row and the token Scot to finish off the exhausted Aussie scrum, and the pair of deft Irish HBs finally get quick ball out to the Tuiwrecking machine to blast holes for the Welsh flyers to come infield and score some series winning tries. So yes there is hope for B&I.

Notch wrote:When you consider the fact we were big favourites for the series going in, a lucky 2-1 win will hardly be enough to validate Gatland for his failure to develop beyond his 'Team Wales' template.

If Australia do win, I will be disappointed. But it will good for rugby if the team that values skill and creativity beats the team that depends on rigid tactics, a negative kicking game and physical power. I suspect that thats the conflict for many other rugby fans as well as me. You want to see good rugby being played and dropping the only centre in the original touring party with an iota of creativity is hardly a good sign we'll get that at long last.

This team selection is the latest in a series of blunders that have seen a series that looked unwinnable from an Aussie perspective come down to a 50/50 call on the last weekend of the tour. We might win this series in spite of the coaches input, but I wouldn't say I've enjoyed this tour as much as 2009 either way.

I'd dispute that the Lions were heavy favourites (except in the Lions' fans' eyes) - the Lions' don't have anyone to match Will Genia for example. And both South Africa and Wales have struggled to beat the Aussies using a bish bash bosh approach (which pretty much everyone expected once the squad came out). The only justifications for that fan favouritism were the assumptions that 
a) Deans would screw up (OK, JOC at 10 isn't great, but otherwise he's done pretty well with the available resources)
b) that a Pocock-less pack would struggle (forgetting that the Aussie Super franchises have to have more than decent flankers because they're in regular competition with NZ)
c) that the Lions would own the scrum (when there's plenty of evidence that the Aussies are capable of working around their weaknesses there - and their props have to scrum against the Saffa Super side)

I'm feeling mildly smug that I predicted pre-tour that the 3rd test would be the series decider - (I thought Aus would win the 1st and the Lions the 2nd, though arguably injuries cost the Aussies the 1st test and the Lions the 2nd)

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:

Notch wrote:When you consider the fact we were big favourites for the series going in, a lucky 2-1 win will hardly be enough to validate Gatland for his failure to develop beyond his 'Team Wales' template.

If Australia do win, I will be disappointed. But it will good for rugby if the team that values skill and creativity beats the team that depends on rigid tactics, a negative kicking game and physical power. I suspect that thats the conflict for many other rugby fans as well as me. You want to see good rugby being played and dropping the only centre in the original touring party with an iota of creativity is hardly a good sign we'll get that at long last.

This team selection is the latest in a series of blunders that have seen a series that looked unwinnable from an Aussie perspective come down to a 50/50 call on the last weekend of the tour. We might win this series in spite of the coaches input, but I wouldn't say I've enjoyed this tour as much as 2009 either way.

I'd dispute that the Lions were heavy favourites (except in the Lions' fans' eyes) - the Lions' don't have anyone to match Will Genia for example. And both South Africa and Wales have struggled to beat the Aussies using a bish bash bosh approach (which pretty much everyone expected once the squad came out). The only justifications for that fan favouritism were the assumptions that 
a) Deans would screw up (OK, JOC at 10 isn't great, but otherwise he's done pretty well with the available resources)
b) that a Pocock-less pack would struggle (forgetting that the Aussie Super franchises have to have more than decent flankers because they're in regular competition with NZ)
c) that the Lions would own the scrum (when there's plenty of evidence that the Aussies are capable of working around their weaknesses there - and their props have to scrum against the Saffa Super side)

I'm feeling mildly smug that I predicted pre-tour that the 3rd test would be the series decider - (I thought Aus would win the 1st and the Lions the 2nd, though arguably injuries cost the Aussies the 1st test and the Lions the 2nd)

Just what we need, a smug Kiwi  

Smug Kiwis think alike Pete. I thought it would come down to the wire and this third match will be no different. I can see why Bluesman would be confident enough to make a bet with me that the Lions (because on paper they are the strongest side in world rugby and who said anything about paper needing to match reality  ) would cleansweep the series as it's been very close and either side could have been equally 2 - 0 up or down at this stage.

But as a neutral, I hope the match is closer to the first one than the second one in terms of quality moments as the second test was nigh on impossible to be enthused about other than the fact it was close and went down to the wire.

I don't want the Lions to lose, I just can't see how they can with the side they put out.

Its not just here, try finding someone who actually agrees with him.... the best thing anyone has said in the media is.... "brave/bold selection". These include former coaches, top coaches, former lions... guys who know what it takes to beat teams in series, in their own backyard.

SCW and the 2005 tour gets a lot of stick but in truth and at the time we knew that the gulf between the sides was massive and say McGeechan been head coach, the results would have been near exact. That tour relied on the fitness and form of a few key individuals in Dillaglio, O'Driscoll and Wilkinson and without those 3 the tour fell apart. The fact that SCW mad the tour more impersonal, more professional was just a side issue to blame SCW for "wrecking the Lions" and an excuse to say its proof that his tenure with England was a fluk. 

This tour was very different on paper. THE NH had class players all over the park to pick from.Injuries played its part sure but AUS lost probably the best player in the world at the moment in Pocock and a host of others too. Additionally the relationship between players and coaches have been strained... they were for the taking with the right strategy/players, and not just by the odd point 1 or 2.

People always say that given Gatland has often been close to the 3N sides in their losses its proof to say that the method only required a few tweaks here and there... ridiculous, had it been so laws of averages would have got them over the line more than 1 win in 23 under Gatland.... with the best players in the NH in the last 5 years its a proven terrible method when facing sides who play at a high tempo and have superior skills.

As you say, their is still a game to play and we're in it... but the voice of past tour experience/lessons whatevers tells me and most sane people that it will end in failure and it could be very messy indeed if we go a score down. Heart say I hope not, head says the writing is on the wall.

How can Pocock be the best player in the world at the moment if he's injured Fa?  

Frustration is the key word but for me I'd be more frustrated that the Lions are not 2 - 0 up right now because that was in their power to achieve. They still have every chance to make it 2 - 1 so I hope the players are not as downcast as many of the Lions supporters on here.

PenfroPete wrote:+ 1,000,000,000,000,000,000,000

Super post Pete.

From day one when the announcement of a HNs national coach to combine the disparate unions into a false unity, all hope was lost.

Gatland will be writ large in the annals of Lions history (greater even than SCW) as a total awnker.

I stick by my initial preferred preferences - either a club coach from one of the nations or PS-A.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Please write up a set of guidelines as to what we can and cannot say Risca. I'd like to make the comment that a 1 point win preceded by a 2 point one suggests there is a great deal of hope for the Lions and whatever the result it's likely to be very close but I'm not sure if this is over analysis.  

It's not the debating that's a problem, more (as I've said) people going in with an attitude of wanting Warburton (as an example) to play poorly to be proven right. I don't agree with that. That's what I mean by over analysis, like people saying "Warburton didn't jackal first test" etc and trying to pick faults.

I don't mind a fair debate as to why x player is better than y player or why so and so should start, but I don't agree with how it gets done sometimes.

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:How can Pocock be the best player in the world at the moment if he's injured Fa?  

Frustration is the key word but for me I'd be more frustrated that the Lions are not 2 - 0 up right now because that was in their power to achieve. They still have every chance to make it 2 - 1 so I hope the players are not as downcast as many of the Lions supporters on here.

Kia, you just upset one of your players has lost the crown for the first time in what a decade ??? come on share a little.. please!!!!

Supporting your team is unconditional. Just because you don't necessarily agree with your team's selection policy on one particular occassion, it doesn't mean you won't support them all the way, 100%.

I'm sure the Wions will scrape home with a win playing Gatlandball against a very poor Aus team (WELL DONE LADS), this tour has been a big step backwards for the NH rugby.

Roll on the new season and the AI.

P S-A would be picking Phillips at flyhalf and giving him the goalkicking duties. Davies would be on the wing and BOD would be at 12. Fail to see how that might help the Lions' cause.

Fa if he's injured he can't be the best player is all I'm saying. No need to go into what is indeed the best player debate...

Risca Rev, just see some of the negativity as a compliment. Think of Gatlandball like the word choke and I don't mean the choke tackle. That said, some people want what is best for the Lions and right or wrong, and biased or not, there's no harm in voicing that opinion regardless of whether you agree with it or not. 2005 saw similar frustrations. Would you say that a lot of that criticism was justified? 2013 is still to be decided and emotions are at a boiling point. Kia Kaha.

VictorU3 wrote:I'm sure the Wions will scrape home with a win playing Gatlandball against a very poor Aus team (WELL DONE LADS), this tour has been a big step backwards for the NH rugby.

Roll on the new season and the AI.

No surprises to see you be childish Hersh. You can also blame two of your finest coaches for their input if we are mud slinging like that.

I, like many on here, find my self despairing at some of the selections. Some because I think better players have been overlooked, some because I think the wrong game plan has been used & some because I think the balance & combinations are wrong. I also have my favourite players of course.

Do I blame the Welsh because 10 of them, and some by a long stretch shouldn't be near the test side, have been selected?

No.

I blame Gatland.

After all the definition of insanity is doing the same thing over and over again and expecting a different result.

8 going for 9.

But on Saturday when 15 Lions (and 8 sat on the bench who will mostly watch for 80 minutes and not put a foot on the pitch... Gray & Farrel) take to the grass I will be proudly wearing my Lions shirt and cheering my ass off for them! And win or lose I will be raising a glass to their health.

My heart says Lions series win.

My head says the Aussies are going to stuff us.

'This post was made by Risca Rev who is currently on your ignore list. Hide the message.'

Keep them coming Rev as this is all I see.

VictorU3 wrote:'This post was made by Risca Rev who is currently on your ignore list. Hide the message.'

Keep them coming Rev as this is all I see.

It wouldn't say hide the message if you blocked me, you chimp. Nor would I see your posts. You had the audacity to call me thick too  Bravo Hersh

Just out of interest, deep down will any of you be happy with another scrappy win over Aus 2nds?

If the correct footwear had been worn by Beale then this game would have been nothing more than a chance to dish out some Lions caps to a few mates  

Risca Rev wrote:

VictorU3 wrote:'This post was made by Risca Rev who is currently on your ignore list. Hide the message.'

Keep them coming Rev as this is all I see.

It wouldn't say hide the message if you blocked me, you chimp. Nor would I see your posts. You had the audacity to call me thick too  Bravo Hersh

Rev I couldn't help but look, wow that’s rather offensive.

Being mixed race myself I hope the Mods will take action against this guy for calling me a Chimp, what’s next a flying banana smiley so idiots like this can reveal in their racist views?