5 things I've nicked from Paul Williams...

Well one really, the basic format of the article. I'm sure he'll realise it's a form of compliment and won't mind. Any other similarities are purely coincidental, honest.

Three things we've learned from the Lions Tour (see, I'm not even a accurate plagiarist) and the Third Test selections in particular:

The fans' capacity for surprise is limitless.

Wales under Gatland has seen a mixture of success and disappointment. Almost throughout there have been complaints from the Welsh fans about the style of play and selection policy. Gradually over time they have been battered into acquiescence, helped it must be said by the renaissance in 2011.

The other home nations fans were not blind to this. The term Gatlandball was coined by them before this tour. The formulaic, kick and defend gameplan was not particularly popular outside Wales. Apart from the rehash of the squad in 2011, selection was, settled, shall we say.

5 years of Gatlandball and consistent selection. Whatever the rights and wrongs of that game plan and the selection policy, one thing it is not (and should not be to any half interested rugby fan) is a surprise.

Yet a cursory trawl of social media and the internet show howls of amazement at the third test squad selection.

"10 Welshmen! What!"

Shall we say that I'm surprised at the level of surprise.

Social Media is the biggest threat

Through this tour we have heard prophets of doom predicting the end of Lions Concept for a range of reasons; over commercialisation and the cheap caps handed out in Hong Kong; the questionable scheduling of regional games in the super rugby calendar leading to the Western Farce; the call ups from holidaying players and the resulting loss to the Brumbies.

The Lions have been described as an unique and anachronistic throwback as if that were a bad thing...

However, as valid as these points may be, the biggest threat to the whole thing for me is social media.

In tours past you either travelled in the melting pot of the tour and met the other nation's fans face to face, or you watched it at home surrounded by your mates. In both cases there was banter and disagreement, but within the social conventions of the rugby fan.

On twitter a misjudged or overheated remark about another nation or its fans can be fired off without those conventions. The purpose of the conventions is to avoid catching a clout of course, so it isn't a surprise that there is a new phenomenon on this tour; twitter bickering, or twickering, if you prefer.

The main culprits are the Welsh and Irish as far as I can see, but must admit that this may reflect the make up of my twitter account. If you want to trawl it for signs of the odd barbed hibernophobic remark by me, feel free, but I can tell you, that you will find them. This is not hypocrisy, it shows that I know of what I speak.

And the vitriol of some of these remarks are such that I would never expect them to be made in person. Not by the people I have actually met anyhow.

Sky's coverage and Stuart Barnes seems to be the only unifying factor, in the same way that if you distract fighting dogs, they may both turn on you...

So far the tradition has survived because the individual nations' fans have found something positive in it for them. Switch fans off and you risk losing a critical mass of support.

Perhaps in four years time we will all have grown up a little.

Pity the Welsh fans.

OK, so if we take the astonished, angry and wound up masses of non Welsh fans, we feel sorry for them right?

Wrong.

They can not lose. If the Lions win, it's a series win and the significant other is in for a treat. If they lose, it's a series lost and they can dine out on  "told you so's" and curse Gatland in a heap for leaving out their man.

Welsh fans? For a win its the same. If we lose though we better get the salt and pepper out to get through the opprobrium that will be thrown on us in spades.

Some Welsh fans seem to be completely unable to differentiate between criticism of Gatland- criticism of his tactics, favourites and selection policy- and criticism of Wales.

Your last line doesn't do much to challenge that misconception.

Glas - I totally agree with what your saying. I am not overly a fan of the Lions, but this tour has really put me off. I don't buy into this my nation is better than your nonesence, but the whole issue at the moment is starting to feel very claustraphobic from a Welsh point of view. People may say we are getting too touchy and taking abuse for Gats personally, yet I have seen on numerous boards, and numerous threads 'Wales lost to Aus what makes them thing their borign tactics will work this time' etc.

I prey for a series win on Sat, not as a Lions fan, but as someone who is so so tired of all the bickering.

you are kidding yourselves if you think the series win will paper over all the mistakes the coaching team has made.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:you are kidding yourselves if you think the series win will paper over all the mistakes the coaching team has made.

I don't think it will, but I think it will lead to far less grumbling and bickering than a loss.

Notch wrote:Some Welsh fans seem to be completely unable to differentiate between criticism of Gatland- criticism of his tactics, favourites and selection policy- and criticism of Wales.

Your last line doesn't do much to challenge that misconception.

No it doesn't does it. But then, not everybody is as reasoned as you Notch. It doesn't help either that in the vast majority of cases people are not saying "Player A from my country should never have been picked in favour if Player B from another!" Rather its most often a case of vice versa.

Boo hoo. Try being an England fan after the 2005 tour. We're still getting snidey comments now. This is nothing new, only difference is who is on the receiving end this time.

Well many welsh fans have taken delight in dishing out the criticism of the 05 tour and still do. Near every day SCW is lampooned on here for being a one trick pony due to that single tour... compared to 7 years at the helm of England where his record is unmatched by any coach in the NH in history... both in the RWC and in terms of dominance over the 3Ns.

Criticism comes with the territory. But don't forget to acknowledge the ungracious past of many of your kinsman to be brought up to cite double standards when complaining of this "mistreatment".

Glas a du wrote:

Notch wrote:Some Welsh fans seem to be completely unable to differentiate between criticism of Gatland- criticism of his tactics, favourites and selection policy- and criticism of Wales.

Your last line doesn't do much to challenge that misconception.

No it doesn't does it. But then, not everybody is as reasoned as you Notch. It doesn't help either that in the vast majority of cases people are not saying "Player A from my country should never have been picked in favour if Player B from another!" Rather its most often a case of vice versa.

Indeed.

This is the point where I'll likely upset nearly everyone. 

I'd have struggled to pick BOD this week too, the only thing to have saved him would have been captaincy. Davies/BOD as a combo failed, so some change had to be made in the centres. And I'd have gone with Roberts/Tuilagi*, because, leadership (BOD) aside at the present point in time neither BOD nor Davies do anything better than Adam Ashley Cooper does (BOD used to, but sadly old age catches up with everyone). Tuilagi at least offers a bit more contrast, and while he's poorer in some areas, he can give AAC pause in others. Some of the arguments for including BOD coming from the Irish are purely about sentimentality. The reason NZ has been the greatest rugby nation on the planet for most of the last century is that we're generally prepared to opt for practicality over romance - Mils Muliaina only got to 100 caps because we couldn't play Dagg in every pool match. Those rare occasions where we've lapsed into sentiment (John Hart with Sean Fitzpatrick in '98 for example) so have our performances.




(actually, I'd have loved to go 12trees/Tuilagi, but I really don't have time to write on essay on why)

Kiwi,

You say "leadership aside". Would you have picked BOD for this game for his leadership?

Would you have dropped him for Davies or an injured Roberts?

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:you are kidding yourselves if you think the series win will paper over all the mistakes the coaching team has made.

Radge

Every Lions tour I can remember, every International selection, even many club team announcements all cause debate of the rights and wrongs of selections, tactics and gameplan.

Gatland has been a proven winner with all these levels and we can still win the series.

MrsP wrote:Kiwi,

You say "leadership aside". Would you have picked BOD for this game for his leadership?

Would you have dropped him for Davies or an injured Roberts?

I'd have seriously considered picking him as captain - however I don't know for sure, normally I prefer to select the team 1st then the skipper.

If Roberts wasn't fit, I'd have Twelvetrees in a trice, as I don't rate any of the other centres on tour as 12s.


Really tough call on BOD vs Davies too - again as neither have excelled in the tests.

maestegmafia wrote:
Gatland has been a proven winner with all these levels and we can still win the series.

We can but I don't think we should. I don't want to see Gatlandball vindicated by a series win.

Pete wrote:(actually, I'd have loved to go 12trees/Tuilagi, but I really don't have time to write on essay on why)

So would I. I would have loved to have seen Freddy Barnes tour, Madigan, Laidlaw and Marshall. I am a firm believer in guile and an attacking brand of rugby, but Gatland is not. I have some sympathy for non Welsh fans. The last five years for me is a process they have had to go through in five weeks!

Glas a du wrote:

Pete wrote:(actually, I'd have loved to go 12trees/Tuilagi, but I really don't have time to write on essay on why)

So would I. I would have loved to have seen Freddy Barnes tour, Madigan, Laidlaw and Marshall. I am a firm believer in guile and an attacking brand of rugby, but Gatland is not. I have some sympathy for non Welsh fans. The last five years for me is a process they have had to go through in five weeks!

This statement is important, as is the whole ethos of the OP. It would be easy to dismiss my comments as xenophobia but I have really enjoyed cheering on the monster formally known as George North and like and respect the Welsh players.

Gatland's stubbornness and unwillingness to mix it up for the last test has really bothered me. He has been overly reliant on players he knows or likes and hasn't IMO cast the net wide enough and guys like Wood, Robshaw and Brown have paid the price while guys like Jenkins, Shane Williams and to an extent Dan Lydiate have benefited.

Oh and Halfpenny, the shining beacon in the trenches known as Gatlandball.

Andy Irvine chose him.  

  

Seriously though Radge, the criticism in this article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/10157018/Warren-Gatlands-selection-of-10-Welshmen-in-starting-XV-a-brazen-insult-to-very-concept-of-British-and-Irish-Lions.html

borders on the racist. The beef is not who is selected or why, but where they are from.

Fine, I think I would be just as upset in your shoes. I think the reaction generally betrays a contempt for the Welsh players which is not justified. Gatland is trying to win the series. He's doing it his own way, frankly he doesn't care what any of us think. He tried compromise and inclusivity and the second test was the result. I'm amazed Rowndtree managed to get Parling in again.

I don't have any contempt for Welsh players at all.

I have enjoyed cheering on North, Halfpenny and Fatetau.

The contempt is for Gatland and his co-selectors alone.

Glas a du wrote:Seriously though Radge, the criticism in this article:

http://www.telegraph.co.uk/sport/rugbyunion/international/britishandirishlionsrugby/10157018/Warren-Gatlands-selection-of-10-Welshmen-in-starting-XV-a-brazen-insult-to-very-concept-of-British-and-Irish-Lions.html

borders on the racist. The beef is not who is selected or why, but where they are from.

Fine, I think I would be just as upset in your shoes. I think the reaction generally betrays a contempt for the Welsh players which is not justified. Gatland is trying to win the series. He's doing it his own way, frankly he doesn't care what any of us think. He tried compromise and inclusivity and the second test was the result. I'm amazed Rowndtree managed to get Parling in again.

His way has failed every single time. Had Beale not slipped on his erse he would still be without a single win against Australia in 11 attempts! Even the 6N wooden spooners hammered them 33-6!

I don't know about you guys but If I make a mistake or try something that doesn't work I might give it a bash again, then perhaps once again. To repeatedly roll out a play style that has failed so badly time and time again is a joke.

If I made the SAME mistake 11 times in my job I would expect the sack and If not I would start to consider changing my approach to the challenge.

Gatland is in a corner because from the offset he has picked the same team with a couple of cameo's from English and Irish players. Geech will have to repair the lions again in another 4 years.

What is the conclusion put forth in the OP?


Is it "You are us" or "We are not them"???

Glas says it's all a drag as nobody seems to want to be 'One' no more and he admits he's one of the culprits as he gets engaged in the old mud throwing too over on Twitterspeak.

So what's the point of this thread?  We pretend to be one but we all know deep down we're not and never were.

That's about as shocking as the Lions having ten Welsh guys.  There is no shock in the conclusion and no need for the morbid sense that people aren't playing ball with the ethos.  

The truth is the truth - The Lions is a vested interest club.  We're not all the one, we're four Nations.  That doesn't stop being true simply because players get a lovely kit bag of Lions merchandise.  It's a naive and idealistic nonsense to fall for that guff that all National sensibilities die when The Lions go on tour.  Nonsense.  Always has been.

We all want our slice of it and are happiest when it seems a fair division of labour.  When the weighing scales start being loaded on one side, the shhit hits the fan.  It's always been the case.  And what has also always been the case, the biggest segment of the club always feels oppressed when the complaints start coming.  "Why don't we all just be one and support the team."

Being 'one' is a fantasy.  Managing the expectations of four Nations is the true deal.  Do it well and people are generally content enough, abuse it and war breaks out.  We are not all one.

Less disappointment all round if the Lions stopped the sick-bag promotion and propaganda that somehow the Lions is unity.  It's not, it's vested interest, like all professional business.

SecretFly wrote:What is the conclusion put forth in the OP?


Is it "You are us" or "We are not them"???

Glas says it's all a drag as nobody seems to want to be 'One' no more and he admits he's one of the culprits as he gets engaged in the old mud throwing too over on Twitterspeak.

So what's the point of this thread?  We pretend to be one but we all know deep down we're not and never were.

That's about as shocking as the Lions having ten Welsh guys.  There is no shock in the conclusion and no need for the morbid sense that people aren't playing ball with the ethos.  

The truth is the truth - The Lions is a vested interest club.  We're not all the one, we're four Nations.  That doesn't stop being true simply because players get a lovely kit bag of Lions merchandise.  It's a naive and idealistic nonsense to fall for that guff that all National sensibilities die when The Lions go on tour.  Nonsense.  Always has been.

We all want our slice of it and are happiest when it seems a fair division of labour.  When the weighing scales start being loaded on one side, the shhit hits the fan.  It's always been the case.  And what has also always been the case, the biggest segment of the club always feels oppressed when the complaints start coming.  "Why don't we all just be one and support the team."

Being 'one' is a fantasy.  Managing the expectations of four Nations is the true deal.  Do it well and people are generally content enough, abuse it and war breaks out.  We are not all one.

Less disappointment all round if the Lions stopped the sick-bag promotion and propaganda that somehow the Lions is unity.  It's not, it's vested interest, like all professional business.

+1,000,000,000,000,000 or however many Penfro used on the other thread

AsLongAsBut100ofUs wrote:

SecretFly wrote:What is the conclusion put forth in the OP?


Is it "You are us" or "We are not them"???

Glas says it's all a drag as nobody seems to want to be 'One' no more and he admits he's one of the culprits as he gets engaged in the old mud throwing too over on Twitterspeak.

So what's the point of this thread?  We pretend to be one but we all know deep down we're not and never were.

That's about as shocking as the Lions having ten Welsh guys.  There is no shock in the conclusion and no need for the morbid sense that people aren't playing ball with the ethos.  

The truth is the truth - The Lions is a vested interest club.  We're not all the one, we're four Nations.  That doesn't stop being true simply because players get a lovely kit bag of Lions merchandise.  It's a naive and idealistic nonsense to fall for that guff that all National sensibilities die when The Lions go on tour.  Nonsense.  Always has been.

We all want our slice of it and are happiest when it seems a fair division of labour.  When the weighing scales start being loaded on one side, the shhit hits the fan.  It's always been the case.  And what has also always been the case, the biggest segment of the club always feels oppressed when the complaints start coming.  "Why don't we all just be one and support the team."

Being 'one' is a fantasy.  Managing the expectations of four Nations is the true deal.  Do it well and people are generally content enough, abuse it and war breaks out.  We are not all one.

Less disappointment all round if the Lions stopped the sick-bag promotion and propaganda that somehow the Lions is unity.  It's not, it's vested interest, like all professional business.

+1,000,000,000,000,000 or however many Penfro used on the other thread

+1,000,000,000,000,001

I think it's quite reasonable to suggest that if you're relying exclusively on the tactics of one nation and almost exclusively on the personnel, the Lions concept has gone wrong. 2005 made the case for scrapping the Lions. 2009 breathed new life into the concept. 2013 is another step backwards. If 2017 is going to be like this, you can keep it.

What they ^ said.

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:(actually, I'd have loved to go 12trees/Tuilagi)

I know where you are coming from, but the difficulty with that selection, as it has been with many others, is that the coaching team seems unwilling to tweak, or change, the gameplan to suit the players available.

I can understand the need to have some firm strategy in mind for the whole squad, and to want all the players buying into it. McGeechan criticized Woodward for not ensuring the midweek team and Test teams were all singing from the same tune, so you can't simply wing it.

It does sometimes seem as if Gatland decided on his strategy before thinking about selection. On tour, he's then been caught between two stools. He wants players to do the good things they show for their national teams, but he wants them to fit in with a gameplan which doesn't seem to complement their best attributes.

The only player who has really been himself while also performing on tour is PAul O'Connell.

Rugby Fan wrote:

Pete C (Kiwireddevil) wrote:(actually, I'd have loved to go 12trees/Tuilagi)

I know where you are coming from, but the difficulty with that selection, as it has been with many others, is that the coaching team seems unwilling to tweak, or change, the gameplan to suit the players available.

I can understand the need to have some firm strategy in mind for the whole squad, and to want all the players buying into it. McGeechan criticized Woodward for not ensuring the midweek team and Test teams were all singing from the same tune, so you can't simply wing it.

It does sometimes seem as if Gatland decided on his strategy before thinking about selection. On tour, he's then been caught between two stools. He wants players to do the good things they show for their national teams, but he wants them to fit in with a gameplan which doesn't seem to complement their best attributes.

The only player who has really been himself while also performing on tour is PAul O'Connell.

Yep.

Gatlandball... what a crock of shít!

Tries in the 2013 Six Nations
9 Wales: Cuthbert (4), North (1), Halfpenny (1), Mitchell (1), Hibbard (1), Davies (1)
7 Scotland
6 France
5 Ireland
5 England
5 Italy

Ok so Wales smash it up the middle then spin it wide to their outside center, full back or wingers, which accounts for nearly all their tries this year.
If that's Gatlandball and wins us the 6 Nations and gets us more tries than all the other 6 Nations teams then lets be happy with it!  

Glas does Paul Williams post on here?

Not that I know, ask a Mod.

Shifty wrote:Gatlandball... what a crock of shít!

Tries in the 2013 Six Nations
9 Wales:   Cuthbert (4), North (1), Halfpenny (1), Mitchell (1), Hibbard (1), Davies (1)
7 Scotland
6 France
5 Ireland
5 England
5 Italy

Ok so Wales smash it up the middle then spin it wide to their outside center, full back or wingers, which accounts for nearly all their tries this year.  
If that's Gatlandball and wins us the 6 Nations and gets us more tries than all the other 6 Nations teams then lets be happy with it!  

And lost to Australia 8 (?) times in a row. And not beaten South Africa or New Zealand either. Raise your standards man

You're right, it should have been Kidney...

Shifty wrote:Gatlandball... what a crock of shít!

Tries in the 2013 Six Nations
9 Wales:   Cuthbert (4), North (1), Halfpenny (1), Mitchell (1), Hibbard (1), Davies (1)
7 Scotland
6 France
5 Ireland
5 England
5 Italy

Ok so Wales smash it up the middle then spin it wide to their outside center, full back or wingers, which accounts for nearly all their tries this year.  
If that's Gatlandball and wins us the 6 Nations and gets us more tries than all the other 6 Nations teams then lets be happy with it!  

If only the Lions were playing the 6N's teams... 

...What a small minded post

I get that Yappy, but there is no comparator really to the Lions, is there. It's all guesswork, politics and favouritism and always has been.

4 some fans think its the blydi Barbarians.