Who's 606 supporting on Saturday?

First topic message reminder :

I don't do many polls so I thought I'd have a go today..

nganboy wrote:If you want an independent coach (and that would mean the whole coaching team) then how on earth would NZ cope?

Simple, NZ coaching staff for SA and OZ tours, and a blend of SA and OZ coaching for the NZ tour!!!........don't think the entire coaching team necessarily needs to be unattached, but the top man does need to be in my opinion.

flyhalffactory wrote:Total Flanker
A coaches nationality shouldn't even be considered. This is a professional era, well paid coaches and players (not some jumpers for goal posts era).

Gatland has no plan B (or C), he is stubbornly attempting to win using the same tactics as he employed with Wales. He is a very well paid professional who should have realised by now (after 7 previous attempts) coming into this 2013 tour that GatlandBall works well against NH opponents on a cold wet Feb/Mar weekend, but it just doesn't against SH opponents particularly Australia.

The truth is we should be 2-0 down now against an average injury salvaged Oz.

Tactics and no plans B or C, that's the issue and that's the problem not nationality


I will be cheering on the British & Irish Lions with the same gusto as in every tour and every previous match.

Sorry should have been clearer - its not independence of nationality, its independence from being the head coach of one of the four. I don't mind if the next coach is English, Irish, Scottish or Welsh, just that they are not a current head coach/otherwise embedded in coaching one of the four countries.

Here's a thought... a Welshman (or Kiwi) coaching a Welsh team for a three game series?
And an Englishman doing the same for an English team and so on?

The complex complications of trying to make this Lions gig 'fair'....just ain't worth it.

Totalflanker wrote:

nganboy wrote:If you want an independent coach (and that would mean the whole coaching team) then how on earth would NZ cope?

Simple, NZ coaching staff for SA and OZ tours, and a blend of SA and OZ coaching for the NZ tour!!!........don't think the entire coaching team necessarily needs to be unattached, but the top man does need to be in my opinion.

alternatively... just go for a french coach

I will be supporting the Lions as 1) this is a case of NH solidarity and 2) Sexton, Roberts and Lydiate deserve one last trophy in their careers

In the professional era,  the Lions are an outdated concept. It will always be fiendishly difficult to get a series win in the SH - a simple game plan is an obvious approach.

Gatland must thank his stars he is not playing nz or sa but for some reason thinks his side can beat oz who are getting better each game despite playing a winger at FH.

The oz backline is the best there is and that traditional looking backrow has some menace about it.

I will support the plucky underdog but Oz are clear favourites.

[quote="Scarpia"]Any rugby fan from Britain or Ireland who wants the Lions to lose on Saturday is a disgrace to the game. By all means disagree with WG's tactics, selections, management or whatever but the team is OUR team and every one of us should be wanting a win.[/quote

Disgrace to the game  

Behave yourself.

Needs an option for neither.

Can't support the Aussies but, whilst I would've supported the Lions, I won't support the Welsh which is what we've got. Philips was rubbish in the first test and bringing him back in, when slow ball has been a problem and physicality has been shown to achieve little, smacks of Gatland's arrogance/bias. Also not sure what Youngs has done wrong, or Hibbard right, to justify the #2 selection.

Will be happier if Lions win than if they lose, but can't get excited either way.

Tattie Scones RRN wrote:

Scarpia wrote:Any rugby fan from Britain or Ireland who wants the Lions to lose on Saturday is a disgrace to the game. By all means disagree with WG's tactics, selections, management or whatever but the team is OUR team and every one of us should be wanting a win.

Disgrace to the game  

Behave yourself.

[/quote]


 Impressively cogent argument there, Tattie. But I stand by what I say.

Westisbest:
That's a bit like kissing your sister (I don't know what she looks like, to be fair). Having it both ways.

TopHat24/7 wrote:Needs an option for neither.

Can't support the Aussies but, whilst I would've supported the Lions, I won't support the Welsh which is what we've got.  Philips was rubbish in the first test and bringing him back in, when slow ball has been a problem and physicality has been shown to achieve little, smacks of Gatland's arrogance/bias.  Also not sure what Youngs has done wrong, or Hibbard right, to justify the #2 selection.

Will be happier if Lions win than if they lose, but can't get excited either way.

That's quality coming from a Moderator, maybe politics beckons - What the feck are all these posters gonna do if we win

In my defence, I'm not a Mod of this section.....(a section I never post in generally as it's so darn intimidating!)

 Intimidating from someone who writes "I won't support the Welsh which is what we've got." - Quality mate

TopHat24/7 wrote:Needs an option for neither.

Can't support the Aussies but, whilst I would've supported the Lions, I won't support the Welsh which is what we've got.  Philips was rubbish in the first test and bringing him back in, when slow ball has been a problem and physicality has been shown to achieve little, smacks of Gatland's arrogance/bias.  Also not sure what Youngs has done wrong, or Hibbard right, to justify the #2 selection.

Will be happier if Lions win than if they lose, but can't get excited either way.

Funny how prior to the tour starting it was stated by the likes of W.J.McBride, among others that there were no English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish on the tour only Lions.

Because of your age I'll forgive you your ignorance of Lions history but look up the make up of the test side in 89,93, & 97 . Mostly English players in all of those sides. Supporters accepted that at the time because they were the best players and deserved their place.

Please remember they are all Lions regardless of nationality and deserve our wholehearted support

 How's life in Baglan/Port Talbot Dai ?

RubyGuby wrote: How's life in Baglan/Port Talbot Dai ?

Dunno,

Good in Swansea tho!!

RubyGuby wrote: Intimidating from someone who writes "I won't support the Welsh which is what we've got." - Quality mate

What can I say? I came out swinging....... 

TopHat24/7 wrote:In my defence, I'm not a Mod of this section.....(a section I never post in generally as it's so darn intimidating!)

We're not that bad really, its all Gatland's/Welsh/Not Welsh fault.

daiglass63 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Needs an option for neither.

Can't support the Aussies but, whilst I would've supported the Lions, I won't support the Welsh which is what we've got. Philips was rubbish in the first test and bringing him back in, when slow ball has been a problem and physicality has been shown to achieve little, smacks of Gatland's arrogance/bias. Also not sure what Youngs has done wrong, or Hibbard right, to justify the #2 selection.

Will be happier if Lions win than if they lose, but can't get excited either way.

Funny how prior to the tour starting it was stated by the likes of W.J.McBride, among others that there were no English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish on the tour only Lions.

Because of your age I'll forgive you your ignorance of Lions history but look up the make up of the test side in 89,93, & 97 . Mostly English players in all of those sides. Supporters accepted that at the time because they were the best players and deserved their place.

Please remember they are all Lions regardless of nationality and deserve our wholehearted support

If I thought the best XV players for the job were picked I’d support them as Lions whether they happened to be Welsh, Scottish Irish or otherwise. My issue is that I don’t think this is the Lions’ Best XV, this is the Wales coach picking a Welsh side (as best he can) irrespective of quality or form. Philips being a case in point. Hibbard being another. I had no issue with Warbs ahead of Robshaw for example, and Faletau would’ve being my #8 all along. But I think in this final decisive test Gatland has picked what he knows even though what he knows hasn’t worked in this tour or any of Wales’ previous ones and the actual Lions will/have suffer(ed) as a result.

If there was a Scotsman in the starting XV I would have supported the Lions, but now without the S it is only a Lion team. So I will go with the Aussies.

Biltong wrote:If there was a Scotsman in the starting XV I would have supported the Lions, but now without the S it is only a Lion team. So I will go with the Aussies.

But the S comes from South Sea Islander, and there is one starting and one on the bench.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

Biltong wrote:If there was a Scotsman in the starting XV I would have supported the Lions, but now without the S it is only a Lion team. So I will go with the Aussies.

But the S comes from South Sea Islander, and there is one starting and one on the bench.

nope, that would have made LionSS, not the same thing.  

If the Lions were actually lions on loan from Toronga Zoo I'd really get behind the concept. Only in some positions mind you, notably in the backs. I mean, play fair. Not in the forwards as it would be unsporting on the Lions at scrum time. Indeed probably for everyone. And at least ranging out wide, there's the possibility they might even go for one of their own instead of a Wallaby. Yes that's right, real wallabies in the backs as well. Halfpenny you don't know what a kicker is!

TopHat24/7 wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:Needs an option for neither.

Can't support the Aussies but, whilst I would've supported the Lions, I won't support the Welsh which is what we've got.  Philips was rubbish in the first test and bringing him back in, when slow ball has been a problem and physicality has been shown to achieve little, smacks of Gatland's arrogance/bias.  Also not sure what Youngs has done wrong, or Hibbard right, to justify the #2 selection.

Will be happier if Lions win than if they lose, but can't get excited either way.

Funny how prior to the tour starting it was stated by the likes of W.J.McBride, among others that there were no English, Scottish, Welsh or Irish on the tour only Lions.

Because of your age I'll forgive you your ignorance of Lions history but look up the make up of the test side in 89,93, & 97 . Mostly English players in all of those sides. Supporters accepted that at the time because they were the best players and deserved their place.

Please remember they are all Lions regardless of nationality and deserve our wholehearted support

If I thought the best XV players for the job were picked I’d support them as Lions whether they happened to be Welsh, Scottish Irish or otherwise.  

But that's not your decision is it? Does that apply to your local team too? If your favourite player is left out do you boycott the game? Ridiculous! "I'll support the team as long as the selection is exactly the same as mine" Ridiculous!!

His Local team is his local team. Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia. You gotta live with truth.

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

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daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

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The Lions isn't a local team. It's a conglomerate of Nations. The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

??????????????

?????

The Lions isn't a local team.  It's a conglomerate of Nations.  The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country. There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions. However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

??????????????

?????

The Lions isn't a local team.  It's a conglomerate of Nations.  The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country.  There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions.  However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

I think the Lions is very simlar to a national side. I am a west walian, and as such struggle with watching the welsh team when lads from my neck of the country get overllooked for players from elsewhere. But politics plays a part in selection. I wanted to see Wales win in Japan even though some good Scarlets boys were ignored. The Lions is much the same.

Its funny really this time last year people didn't give a stuff if someone was Welsh, English or Scotlish at the Olympics, they cheered on Team GB, this is pretty much the rugby equivalent yet we are bickering like heck.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

I think the Lions is very simlar to a national side.  I am a west walian, and as such struggle with watching the welsh team when lads from my neck of the country get overllooked for players from elsewhere.  But politics plays a part in selection.  I wanted to see Wales win in Japan even though some good Scarlets boys were ignored.  The Lions is much the same.

Its funny really this time last year people didn't give a stuff if someone was Welsh, English or Scotlish at the Olympics, they cheered on Team GB, this is pretty much the rugby equivalent yet we are bickering like heck.

Thus the complexity of the Lions........ as Lions is neither individual Nations nor Team GB.  
No, the Lions is very much not similar to a National side.  But you're right, maybe it should become a Team GB, as many here seem to have such a GB directed emotional attachment to The Lions that people in my country could never obviously subscribe to.

Fly, no disrespect was meant with the Team GB comment, I was just trying to think of something where separate nations, that compete as individual nations (commonweath games) have come together as one successfully.

Also would you not be a bit miffed if Ireland feilded a side made up with 10 Munster lads, 3 Ulster players and 2 boys from Connacht and only a token Leinster lad in the bench? As change the provincial names to national names and it is the same thing. Just larger numbers of people to judge and complain/praise the selection.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

??????????????

?????

The Lions isn't a local team.  It's a conglomerate of Nations.  The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country.  There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions.  However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

Lets get this right, is it ok for an English coach to pick an English side for the Lions, as in 05'?

I can't believe the hypocrisy of some of the people on these boards. Just because your favourites are not selected you sulk and have a pop at the coaches.

Team selection is about opinion, but the only ones that count are the coaches (not only Gatland by the way).

If your not a Lions supporter why does it bother you so much?

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team. Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia. You gotta live with truth.

??????????????

?????

The Lions isn't a local team. It's a conglomerate of Nations. The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country. There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions. However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

I think the Lions is very simlar to a national side. I am a west walian, and as such struggle with watching the welsh team when lads from my neck of the country get overllooked for players from elsewhere. But politics plays a part in selection. I wanted to see Wales win in Japan even though some good Scarlets boys were ignored. The Lions is much the same.

Its funny really this time last year people didn't give a stuff if someone was Welsh, English or Scotlish at the Olympics, they cheered on Team GB, this is pretty much the rugby equivalent yet we are bickering like heck.

I see your GB analogy, but I think you’re missing the point I’m making still. Almost everyone in the Team GB squad was there purely on merit therefore I supported them fully. They weren’t picked because they were English or Scottish etc. I say almost, because the only person I didn’t support, and is a good relevant example to this debate, was another person who made the team based on politics not form – Muhammed ahead of Cook. We had a world #1 smashing everyone he fights but he quits the UK set-up as he’s on another level and GB cynically drop in favour of a lower ranked guy not even at the right weight.

I was fully behind the Lions as a LIONS squad at the start of the tour. It’s only this Saturday when I think ‘Lions’ have been thrown out the window and Gatland has allowed his Welsh allegiance to influence team selection. Again I refer you to Philips and Hibbard as stand out examples of players who’ve done nothing to justify selection.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

??????????????

?????

The Lions isn't a local team.  It's a conglomerate of Nations.  The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country.  There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions.  However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

I think the Lions is very simlar to a national side.  I am a west walian, and as such struggle with watching the welsh team when lads from my neck of the country get overllooked for players from elsewhere.  But politics plays a part in selection.  I wanted to see Wales win in Japan even though some good Scarlets boys were ignored.  The Lions is much the same.

Its funny really this time last year people didn't give a stuff if someone was Welsh, English or Scotlish at the Olympics, they cheered on Team GB, this is pretty much the rugby equivalent yet we are bickering like heck.

I see your GB analogy, but I think you’re missing the point I’m making still.  Almost everyone in the Team GB squad was there purely on merit therefore I supported them fully.  They weren’t picked because they were English or Scottish etc.  I say almost, because the only person I didn’t support, and is a good relevant example to this debate, was another person who made the team based on politics not form – Muhammed ahead of Cook.  We had a world #1 smashing everyone he fights but he quits the UK set-up as he’s on another level and GB cynically drop in favour of a lower ranked guy not even at the right weight.

I was fully behind the Lions as a LIONS squad at the start of the tour.  It’s only this Saturday when I think ‘Lions’ have been thrown out the window and Gatland has allowed his Welsh allegiance to influence team selection. Again I refer you to Philips and Hibbard as stand out examples of players who’ve done nothing to justify selection.

Stop digging son.

ScarletSpiderman wrote:Fly, no disrespect was meant with the Team GB comment, I was just trying to think of something where separate nations, that compete as individual nations (commonweath games) have come together as one successfully.

Also would you not be a bit miffed if Ireland feilded a side made up with 10 Munster lads, 3 Ulster players and 2 boys from Connacht and only a token Leinster lad in the bench?  As change the provincial names to national names and it is the same thing.  Just larger numbers of people to judge and complain/praise the selection.

We are Nations, Spider.  I'm not denigrating the analogy you tried to use at all.  It's fine that you think in terms of the unifying power of Team GB.  And it's understandable that you feel possibly a little confused when your English and Scottish and indeed Northern Irish guys don't feel the same stength of unity in the Lions.
But we are Nations - never more clearly demarcated than the real and distinct one between the UK and Ireland.  So whilst I understand people in Wales, Scotland, England and even Northern Ireland feeling it easier to slide into team GB mode during The British and Irish Lions period...for some of my countrymen it really is something to work on, because some of us always feel too easily consumed into this notion of Team GB - which the Lions isn't.  We're not all the one, and I for one like that distinction.  We're neighbours, not bedfellows.

The Lions must be seen to be inclusive because some of us have no Team GB sensitivities around other regions of the UK representing us.  We represent ourselves through the Lions.  We offer our players to the Lions.  It's a friendship gesture, not a belonging gesture.  And yes, it needs to be respected and it is a sensitive issue.

That's why I say Nations within the Lions format are not family.  Nothing is local.  We are four Nations joining in mutual respect to play a series of games - together.

TopHat24/7 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

??????????????

?????

The Lions isn't a local team.  It's a conglomerate of Nations.  The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country.  There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions.  However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

I think the Lions is very simlar to a national side.  I am a west walian, and as such struggle with watching the welsh team when lads from my neck of the country get overllooked for players from elsewhere.  But politics plays a part in selection.  I wanted to see Wales win in Japan even though some good Scarlets boys were ignored.  The Lions is much the same.

Its funny really this time last year people didn't give a stuff if someone was Welsh, English or Scotlish at the Olympics, they cheered on Team GB, this is pretty much the rugby equivalent yet we are bickering like heck.

I see your GB analogy, but I think you’re missing the point I’m making still.  Almost everyone in the Team GB squad was there purely on merit therefore I supported them fully.  They weren’t picked because they were English or Scottish etc.  I say almost, because the only person I didn’t support, and is a good relevant example to this debate, was another person who made the team based on politics not form – Muhammed ahead of Cook.  We had a world #1 smashing everyone he fights but he quits the UK set-up as he’s on another level and GB cynically drop in favour of a lower ranked guy not even at the right weight.

I was fully behind the Lions as a LIONS squad at the start of the tour.  It’s only this Saturday when I think ‘Lions’ have been thrown out the window and Gatland has allowed his Welsh allegiance to influence team selection. Again I refer you to Philips and Hibbard as stand out examples of players who’ve done nothing to justify selection.

Top hat, welcome to the the Rugby madhouse.
I note that Rugby is not your field and your viewpoint is somewhat removed.If you consider the 6N's as a sort of Olympic Trials to continue the Olympics analogy,Wales have won the last two,one unbeaten and one by losing once then you might understand the preponderance of Welsh players.It would be hard for a coach to say"you know that fella that you have beaten in the last four encounters,well Iam picking him coz they are a bit light in the Lions from his country.Hope you don't mind!"
It is never going to work.

daiglass63 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

??????????????

?????

The Lions isn't a local team.  It's a conglomerate of Nations.  The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country.  There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions.  However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

Lets get this right, is it ok for an English coach to pick an English side for the Lions, as in 05'?

I can't believe the hypocrisy of some of the people on these boards. Just because your favourites are not selected you sulk and have a pop at the coaches.

Team selection is about opinion, but the only ones that count are the coaches (not only Gatland by the way).

If your not a Lions supporter why does it bother you so much?

 I'm guessing you've missed it but there have been the odd complaint about Woodward on that Lion tour.

Lions for the win.  

Tommy Bowe for the  

 Enjoy the match everyone!

daiglass63 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

??????????????

?????

The Lions isn't a local team.  It's a conglomerate of Nations.  The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country.  There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions.  However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

Lets get this right, is it ok for an English coach to pick an English side for the Lions, as in 05'?

I can't believe the hypocrisy of some of the people on these boards. Just because your favourites are not selected you sulk and have a pop at the coaches.

Team selection is about opinion, but the only ones that count are the coaches (not only Gatland by the way).

If your not a Lions supporter why does it bother you so much?

1. When did I say anything about '05?

2. Are you not reading what I'm saying? It's not about favourtism (on anyone other than Gatland's part) it's about the best side not being picked. For the record, my favourite player in the world, let alone this tour, is George North, so clearly no anti-Welsh bias there, and my favourite player in the England set-up is Tuilagi who I'm not saying should be in the Lions XV, so no evidence of nationalistic bitterness.

3. Again, are you not reading what I'm saying? I AM a Lions supporter, this is NOT a Lions side. This is Gatland putting out a Welsh side.

daiglass63 wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

??????????????

?????

The Lions isn't a local team.  It's a conglomerate of Nations.  The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country.  There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions.  However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

I think the Lions is very simlar to a national side.  I am a west walian, and as such struggle with watching the welsh team when lads from my neck of the country get overllooked for players from elsewhere.  But politics plays a part in selection.  I wanted to see Wales win in Japan even though some good Scarlets boys were ignored.  The Lions is much the same.

Its funny really this time last year people didn't give a stuff if someone was Welsh, English or Scotlish at the Olympics, they cheered on Team GB, this is pretty much the rugby equivalent yet we are bickering like heck.

I see your GB analogy, but I think you’re missing the point I’m making still.  Almost everyone in the Team GB squad was there purely on merit therefore I supported them fully.  They weren’t picked because they were English or Scottish etc.  I say almost, because the only person I didn’t support, and is a good relevant example to this debate, was another person who made the team based on politics not form – Muhammed ahead of Cook.  We had a world #1 smashing everyone he fights but he quits the UK set-up as he’s on another level and GB cynically drop in favour of a lower ranked guy not even at the right weight.

I was fully behind the Lions as a LIONS squad at the start of the tour.  It’s only this Saturday when I think ‘Lions’ have been thrown out the window and Gatland has allowed his Welsh allegiance to influence team selection. Again I refer you to Philips and Hibbard as stand out examples of players who’ve done nothing to justify selection.

Stop digging son.

Not digging. It's called putting forward reasoned arguments, whether you agree with or like those reasons is irrelevant. I'm guessing you're Welsh and your balls are still fizzing over Saturday's line-up so can't bear to see it, or your boys, denigrated in any way.

Taffineastbourne wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

ScarletSpiderman wrote:

TopHat24/7 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:

daiglass63 wrote:

SecretFly wrote:His Local team is his local team.  Wales, Ireland and Scotland aren't, Scarpia.  You gotta live with truth.

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The Lions isn't a local team.  It's a conglomerate of Nations.  The analogy doesn't function, is all I'm saying.

Exactly.

Genuinely didn't think it was such a difficult concept to grasp.

You have an allegiance to your local club, as you do to your country.  There isn't that link with the Lions but the tour is so exciting you get behind them anyway because they become one as Lions.  However, as explained above, Saturday's team expels that theory as it is the Welsh coach picking a Welsh side not a Lions Best XV.

I think the Lions is very simlar to a national side.  I am a west walian, and as such struggle with watching the welsh team when lads from my neck of the country get overllooked for players from elsewhere.  But politics plays a part in selection.  I wanted to see Wales win in Japan even though some good Scarlets boys were ignored.  The Lions is much the same.

Its funny really this time last year people didn't give a stuff if someone was Welsh, English or Scotlish at the Olympics, they cheered on Team GB, this is pretty much the rugby equivalent yet we are bickering like heck.

I see your GB analogy, but I think you’re missing the point I’m making still.  Almost everyone in the Team GB squad was there purely on merit therefore I supported them fully.  They weren’t picked because they were English or Scottish etc.  I say almost, because the only person I didn’t support, and is a good relevant example to this debate, was another person who made the team based on politics not form – Muhammed ahead of Cook.  We had a world #1 smashing everyone he fights but he quits the UK set-up as he’s on another level and GB cynically drop in favour of a lower ranked guy not even at the right weight.

I was fully behind the Lions as a LIONS squad at the start of the tour.  It’s only this Saturday when I think ‘Lions’ have been thrown out the window and Gatland has allowed his Welsh allegiance to influence team selection. Again I refer you to Philips and Hibbard as stand out examples of players who’ve done nothing to justify selection.

Top hat, welcome to the the Rugby madhouse.
I note that Rugby is not your field and your viewpoint is somewhat removed.If you consider the 6N's as a sort of Olympic Trials to continue the Olympics analogy,Wales have won the last two,one unbeaten and one by losing once then you might understand the preponderance of Welsh players.It would be hard for a coach to say"you know that fella that you have beaten in the last four encounters,well Iam picking him coz they are a bit light in the Lions from his country.Hope you don't mind!"
It is never going to work.

Hi Taff, thanks for the polite response, this indeed isn't my usual field of debate but I am a fan keen watcher of international rugby and played for my school as a lad so I'm not totally 'lay'.

I see your point(s), however I would comment as follows:

1. Looking at the 6N's, the last one Wales won on points difference only, the previous Wales matched England result for result until they met and Wales got the result (and some generous refereeing) despite being thoroughly outplayed. And others have already listed that it's neck and neck, if not England edging it, in recent years so I don't think there is that clear a case for Welsh players to be ahead of English ones (I emphasise here that this isn't my actually point as it's not an Eng-v-Wal issue specifically).

2. Wales'/Gatland's success has been mainly in the northern hemisphere. As other's have pointed out Gatland's style of trying to rollover teams with gigantic Welsh units hasn't been as successful south of the equator, especially against Oz whether other 6N sides have better recent records. This is more my issue. Mike Philips epitomises that style and was very poor in the first test, that 'style' simply hasn't been effective and we've suffered with slow ball. So what justifies his inclusion?

They will always have my support if not my understanding

Top Hat, the arguement for Hibbard and Phillips is that both the Youngs had mares last weekend, and both Hibbard and Phillips fit the crash ball, and boring, style Gatland likes. I honestly believe they would be selected even if they were non welsh.

I was at Glasto last weekend so am relying on feedback from friends that watched. Can't believe Youngs was any worse than Philips in the first test.

Understand re the crash ball, both suit it better, I just see no evidence of it working. Was Youngs poor throwing? As first test I thought our line-out was performing well against the Aussies.

The lineout just didn't function, and at scrum half Youngs didn't really do much to stand out, Murray came on and imo made a real impact.  But that is my, slightly skewed, view of it.  Personally i wouldn't have put Roberts in at all though.

p.s. your holding your own against us grumpy lot

Youngs has been dropped to the bench to beef up the front row to accomodate the lighter Parling - I would have kept the english hooker who has had a very good tour and put Evans or Grey instead of Parling who for me is one rung up from Matt Stevens

Us lot of course......can agree to not like the choices made by the folks picked to make choices but COYL!!!!

RubyGuby wrote:Youngs has been dropped to the bench to beef up the front row to accomodate the lighter Parling - I would have kept the english hooker who has had a very good tour and put Evans or Grey instead of
Parling who for me is one rung up from Matt Stevens

Agree on the second rows, but Hibbard alongside Corbisero and Jones will be the best scrummaging pack we can possibly put out. Even with Parling, we should dominate at scrum time. Amazed Parling is still there. Would have gone with Gray with Evans on the bench. Never mind. I really like Tom Youngs. Had my doubts but he's really shone this tour. Think he's a superb replacement to have.

I'll be supporting the Lions even more so with all the negativity surrounding '10 welshmen' even though Wales won the title that states you are the best out of all NH sides, we were obviously going to form most of the squad and test side. I really fancy us to win on Saturday, especially with all the negativity surrounding the selections, the men given the nod such as Roberts and JD2 will be right up for it on Saturday!

I would've had Gray ahead of Parling also. Parling can bring some dynamism offf the bench if needed.

TopHat24/7 wrote:I would've had Gray ahead of Parling also. Parling can bring some dynamism offf the bench if needed.

Evans is a far superior player imo to Parling. Better in the line out, ball carrying and at the breakdown. Evans has been a talisman for Wales in the 2012 GS and the 6N championship win. AWJ got many plaudits when he returned and rightly so but Evans was consistently very good throughout the tournament.

I'd agree with that, Liam - felt he came of age, so-to-speak, in the last 6Ns