2013 Autumn Internationals

First topic message reminder :

Just to get away from all of the Lions discussion for a while,thought I'd go for a different topic.

What teams would you like your respective countries put out in the AI's this year, Northern or Southern Hemisphere.

I'll start with Ireland.

1. Healy
2. Cronin
3. Bent
4. Henderson
5. O'Connell (c)
6. SOB
7. Henry
8. Heaslip
9. Reddan
10. Madigan
11. Zebo
12. Olding
13. BOD
14. Gilroy
15. Kearney

16. Strauss
17. Hagan
18. McAlister
19. Tuohy
20. POM
21. P Marshall
22. Jackson
23. Trimble

Leaving out Sexton as he will be in France.

Picking BOD because I'm certain Schmidt will pick him and would be good for the experience around a lot of young lads.

Leaving out Ferris as he will be In Japan but have heard rumours of a 6 month contract with Ulster apparently?

Henderson and Olding are two young players who have great first provincial seasons and I feel we need to give them the oppurtunity to step up to international level sooner rather than later!

He has another year. Signed and sealed. Has already stated that he won't go to the RWC. I thin Schmidt is happy for a season and then he is looking at earls, Payne or possibly another youngster stepping into 13 with someone with at least 1 season of internationals alongside BOD retained

rodders wrote:

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:http://www.ticketmaster.ie/Ireland-tickets/artist/1056338

Plenty of good seats available for them. There is a triple ticket here for 140 inc charges.

Good man Jen, hey do you know if you can bring a newborn in there or do they need their own seat....

You can. up to 2 years. I think you may have to get a (Free) ticket for health and safety. You do at Leinster anyway.

RuggerRadge2611 wrote:1. Grant
2. Macarthur
3. Murray
4. Gray
5. Swinson
6. Brown
7. Barclay / Rennie
8. Beattie
9. Laidlaw
10. Heathcote
11. Lamont
12. Scott
13. Dunbar
14. Maitland
15. Hogg

16. Ford
17. Welsh
18. Cross
19. Hamilton
20. Denton
21. Cusiter (if he doesn't fancy retiring to becoming a BBC pundit)
22. Horne
23. Visser

Something like that anyway. A lot of guys stood up in the quadrangular tournament Swinson being one of them.

Although for Australia if we have Rennie and Barclay fit I wouldn't mind seeing them team up again to make a mess of the Ozzie breakdown and deny them quick ball.

Really good looking squad for Scotland. I hope Rennie returns on the same rich vein of form he'd struck before his injury. Absolute class act.

I was so surprised how well the Scotland debutants went against South Africa. Swinson in particular was very impressive. Good to see Denton returning to form as well. Has he been injured?

Bod now 6 caps off Gregan's record. Cold be 5 if JD slips in the shower

That's 140 in real money btw. May be less in that separatist cash you use up there.  

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:Harsh... but fair, rodders.

Any chance of BOD making it to 2014 in an Irish jersey? Or 2015 RWC? With his sabbatical this week, it may give his aching bones some much needed rest.  

Contracted to end of 2014 Kia...nay chance of him making it to the RWC but Paddy Wallace is looking in good nick so we'll manage....

 One last crack at those fecking ABs. Hope he's fit in November or as close to fit as he can get. I want to see him one more time facing NZ and I'm sure deep down he is too. He won't want to die wondering.

Davies is stepping into his shoes when he retires. He's good enough to play for two Nations at once. When he has a conflict of interest (Ireland v Wales) Gatland decides with an ouija board. That's only if he's carrying a niggle. If he's fully fit he still plays for both sides.

Captain_Sensible wrote:Grant
MacArthur
Murray
Gray
Swinson
Brown
Barclay/Rennie
Beattie
Laidlaw
Heathcote
Visser
Scott
Dunbar
Maitland
Hogg

Subs - Welsh, Ford, Low, Hamilton, Wilson, Jackson, Bennett

That's our strongest run-on XV at the moment. Shame for Horne that he'll be out for 9 months, and I'm not sure when Weir will be back either. Wilson covers the backrow better than Denton, and I think it's time we brought Bennett into the squad. Tough for S Lamont and Seymour, but hey ho.

Cant add to that. Great squad and quite excited about the (eventual) coaching line-up, Humphries has done well with the forwards at The Ospreys so that's gotta be a bonus. I think Denton in SA looked like the 2012 model when we were touting him to be one on the plane, hungry, loads of potential and hitting the lines well, I would have to find a place for him in the 22

When does Josh Strauss become Scottish qualified lads? Lots of depth in the back row even without him! Barclay Rennie Beattie Brown Denton Strokosch Fusaro Wilson.

bluestonevedder wrote:

Toadfish wrote:This topic's like a breath of fresh air!

For England I really hope for a start that we can get the Autumn games without too many injuries.  The lead up to the world cup starts here and I think we need to be getting our strongest team out there as much as possible.  Here's what I'd go with:

1. Corbisiero
2. Youngs
3. Cole
4. Launchbury
5. Parling (Potentially Attwood)
6. Wood
7. Robshaw
8. Morgan
9. Youngs
10. Farrell
11. Yarde
12. Twelvetrees
13. Tuilagi
14. Wade
15. Foden

16. Vunipola
17. Webber
18. Wilson
19. Attwood
20. Croft
21. Care
22. Burns
23. Brown/May/Eastmond can't really decide

Really like what I've seen of Eastmond and Tomkins and would love to find a home for them somewhere but struggling to do so.  Also hope Ashton gets back to form as think he still has a lot to offer.  

Looking forward to the games, NZ don't usually need motivation to smash us but they sure have it now!

Cracking looking side, and pretty much what I'd go for too.

My only possible change might be Kvesic in at 7, or on the bench to cover 6,7, and 8. I think the lad's got loads of potential, and is a real workhorse. 23 tackles in his debut is pretty ridiculous.

I'd take kvesic on the bench and let him have a run out from there!

Jenifer McLadyboy wrote:Bod now 6 caps off Gregan's record. Cold be 5 if JD slips in the shower

May be BOD will kneecap JD like Tonya Harding did.

Will BOD be selected for the AI's?
Clearly not being selected this weekend means he's not what he used to be...well thats what it used to mean...but apparently 65,000 disagree somewhere...

Oooh theres a another post we can create...we don't have many BOD posts out there at the mo...

Taylorman wrote:Will BOD be selected for the AI's?
Clearly not being selected this weekend means he's not what he used to be...well thats what it used to mean...but apparently 65,000 disagree somewhere...

Oooh theres a another post we can create...we don't have many BOD posts out there at the mo...

Not sure if you a being serious .....

Taylorman wrote:Will BOD be selected for the AI's?
Clearly not being selected this weekend means he's not what he used to be...well thats what it used to mean...but apparently 65,000 disagree somewhere...

Oooh theres a another post we can create...we don't have many BOD posts out there at the mo...

No everyone agrees that he's not what he was. What the debate is, is whether what he is is still better than what others are.

From an Irish perspective I don't think there is any question that he is the best outside centre. For the Lions it's a bit less clear cut but in my opinion hes still the best there too.

The question re the AI's is whether the priority is to win the tests or prepare for the RWC.

If it's the latter then he should be left out, if its the former then he will be one of the first names on the teamsheet.

I suspect its a bit of both and he'll certainly start against the ABs if fit.

You don't foucs solely on preparing for the RWC, guys have to earn their way into the team I think. That Oz side in 2011 was built in around a year or so. Ireland can do the same, let guys break their way in don't just repalce a guy for the sake of it.

Why isnt anyone picking Ferris for Ireland? Surprised his contract extension with Ireland hasnt had much attention. The guy is one of our best back row players ever.

GunsGerms wrote:Why isnt anyone picking Ferris for Ireland? Surprised his contract extension with Ireland hasnt had much attention. The guy is one of our best back row players ever.

To be honest, I don't think many people are too hopeful he is coming back. I would LOVE to see him back fully fit and firing, honestly. Do I believe it is going to happen? Not really.

Why not?

Well he is one of the first names on the team sheet for me.

Taylorman wrote:Will BOD be selected for the AI's?
Clearly not being selected this weekend means he's not what he used to be...well thats what it used to mean...but apparently 65,000 disagree somewhere...

Oooh theres a another post we can create...we don't have many BOD posts out there at the mo...

Yet you think it is smart to continually add to them. Why are you taking this out on the irish fans on here?

GunsGerms wrote:Why not?

He is the most injury prone player I have ever seen. He rarely gets a string of games anymore and he needs wrapped in cotton wool between every big game. I think we have already seen the best of Stephen Ferris and unfortunately we won't be seeing him again. Or at least anywhere near the same form if he does return.

Trust me, I really hope I am wrong though. One of the best blindside flankers in the world.

GunsGerms wrote:Why not?

Well he is one of the first names on the team sheet for me.

We've been burned before with Ferris for a guy with no cartilage in his knee it is nothing short of a miracle he is playing pro rugby!

POC is very injury prone too but keeps coming back for more.

A bit different I think, POC's hips and pelvis are also quite weak, that groin injury he hada while back resulted in an injection going straight into the bone.

valtrepkos wrote:

bluestonevedder wrote:Cracking looking side, and pretty much what I'd go for too.

My only possible change might be Kvesic in at 7, or on the bench to cover 6,7, and 8. I think the lad's got loads of potential, and is a real workhorse. 23 tackles in his debut is pretty ridiculous.

I'd take kvesic on the bench and let him have a run out from there!

Thing for me is wther he get game time at Gloucester. With Qera (still there) and the other Fijian who turned out to be a great signing. If he doesn't I'd leave him with Gloucester for the AI to settle in and stake his claim. It can take a while for players to settle in at new clubs and I'd rather he did that for the long term.

GunsGerms wrote:Why not?

Well he is one of the first names on the team sheet for me.

And me but the fact that he just about managed to squeeze a 6 month extension says that the writing is on the wall. He isn't due back playing until January anyways.

I'll be surprised just to see him play again at any level. If there was any sort of positive prognosis around his long term recovery then he wouldn't have signed such a short contract, he's undoubtedly one of the best 6's on the planet and Ireland have missed him desperately.

Thomond wrote:You don't foucs solely on preparing for the RWC, guys have to earn their way into the team I think. That Oz side in 2011 was built in around a year or so. Ireland can do the same, let guys break their way in don't just repalce a guy for the sake of it.

 
Would that be the OZ side that lost to us and scraped past the Boks after some dodgy refereeing?
 
In my opinion it takes 4-6 seasons to build a side to its peak, nothing of substance can be developed in 2 seasons but if we start now we can have a decent squad by 2019 built around guys like Jackson, Olding, Henderson, Luke Marshall, Hanaran, Gilroy etc.
 
2015 is too late or too early for most of our squad. Only Healy, Sexton, Kearney, Best, Ryan, SOB, Earls etc. will be at their peak this time up, maybe O'Mahoney. Heaslip and Bowe are on the wane I believe and a lot of the younger guys need another few seasons of top level experience and better conditioning to compete with the top sides.

Its not impossible but I think we are 3-4 seasons away from being a top side.

Which is why I think Henderson is possibly the best 6 to replace him. He literally looks like Ferris mark II. Big runs, big hits, huge strength. His main weakness is his work rate, something he can easily work on. Not many are as naturally gifted though.

He may end up at second row, but if we want another Ferris at 6, he is the exact option we want. However I remember many throwing the idea that Ferris should move to second row at one point. Well here is a guy with the right height for it too.

Come on rodders, you missed out the team who was schooled in the semi final.  

I think it's possible to develop your side whilst retaining some experience. That's what NZ are being forced to do at the moment. They're far from at their peak but they know they have players who will not make it to 2015. You have to win games but you must also look to the future.

rodders wrote:

Thomond wrote:You don't foucs solely on preparing for the RWC, guys have to earn their way into the team I think. That Oz side in 2011 was built in around a year or so. Ireland can do the same, let guys break their way in don't just repalce a guy for the sake of it.

 
Would that be the OZ side that lost to us and scraped past the Boks after some dodgy refereeing?
 
In my opinion it takes 4-6 seasons to build a side to its peak, nothing of substance can be developed in 2 seasons but if we start now we can have a decent squad by 2019 built around guys like Jackson, Olding, Henderson, Luke Marshall, Hanaran, Gilroy etc.
 
2015 is too late or too early for most of our squad. Only Healy, Sexton, Kearney, Best, Ryan, SOB, Earls etc. will be at their peak this time up, maybe O'Mahoney. Heaslip and Bowe are on the wane I believe and a lot of the younger guys need another few seasons of top level experience and better conditioning to compete with the top sides.

Its not impossible but I think we are 3-4 seasons away from being a top side.

They have gone further then we ever have haven't they? That Oz side was very young, it doesn't take as long a time as people think to build a good team if you have good coaches. We can start integrating a couple of guys but they have to be up to the task. A couple of tweaks and playing the right way and Irleand are a formidable NH side, that's your first goal here. Get to being the best in Europe first.

Thom you don't model yourself on a team who finishes 3rd and plays pants.
 
NZ 2011
SA 2007
England 2003
Australia 1999
 
Look at these sides, they were all experienced teams who had the core together for a long time.
 
Ireland peaked in 07 but bungled it -  8 years on we should be coming into a new peak but we've squandered away the seasons with a short term approach.
 
We should have a group of mid-late twenty/early 30 somethings on 50+ caps ready to lead this side into the RWC - Fitzgerald, Ferris, Earls, Cave, Trimble, McFadden, O'Leary - these guys for whatever reason haven't delivered or reached their full potential. They should now be the go to guys with a core of young fellas around them.
 
Instead BOD, D'arcy and POC are still hanging around and leading from the front and the likes of Earls, MaFadden, Murray,Toner etc. are still trying to develop basic skill and nail down postions.

Before you start aiming to win the world cup Rodders, you aim to win the 6 Nations. You're setting the bar way too high starting off. We can win that with guys who have some experience and a year of international rugby, remember 2009 had several guys who at that point were quite inexperienced, Ferris, Heaslip, O'Leary, Bowe, Kearney to name but a few. Most of those guys only came through for serious game time in 07/08

Aim to get back to the top of europe before you go for the world

Really? How many 6N have New Zealand won?

Woodwards England didn't manage to win the slam until the year of the RC.

Ireland should be targetting the RWC not fixated with the 6N. The 6N's titles will come if we focus on bigger goals.

Disagree with that but can see your reasoning. I think you start off small and build from there. You never focus solely on bringing guys through at the expense of results, in my mind a guy deserves to be in the team or he doesn't no matter what age he is.

Thom I'm not dismissing the 6N but for the bigger sides, including Wales, it's a stepping stone to winning the RWC rather than a prerequisite for winning it.

I want us to win it far more often,desperately, but its an every year thing and requires an element of luck and timing...the RWC is every four years and like the Olympics requires long term planning, not just rocking up and hoping things click.

rodders wrote:Really? How many 6N have New Zealand won?

Woodwards England didn't manage to win the slam until the year of the RC.

Ireland should be targetting the RWC not fixated with the 6N. The 6N's titles will come if we focus on bigger goals.

Of the recent Grand Slams on offer, we've taken all three chances.  

In 2011 we lost the last 3N. Did Australian confidence as 3N champs get them to take Ireland too lightly? Perhaps but they didn't look like 3N champs in the semi final.

It doesn't matter what you win. Winning consistently against all opposition is what matters. That's what all the RWC champs have in common. Not how many trophies they've won. When you win regularly, you increase the experiences on which you're able to draw when you need them the most.

You could argue that Ireland have been the most consistent 6N performer in the past 10 years. But it's also possible to say they haven't won enough for all their consistency.

4 year planning in many ways is unrealistic though. 2007 few would have backed Sexton to be the guy at 10, no one had heard of Conor Murray and guys like Sean O'Brien, Mike Ross wasn't within an arse's roar of the squad, Fergus McFadden was a nobody and Rory Best was just Flannery's deputy. Bowe looked like he wouldn't cut it either.
2 years out is a good assessment point, I think, 3 may be