If Not Gatland............

Warren Gatland is taking a fair share of criticism over the style of play and player selection with the Lions. Months ago, when he accepted the appointment as Lions coach there was a lot of discussion back and forth about who might or might not have been a better choice. I didn't object to him as Head Coach of Wales. My objection is that I believe the coaching staff for the Lions should be from the Home Nations, the same as our players.

So given that as the premise, if not Gatland, then who would have been a better choice? Let's omit Geech from discussion as he becomes an easy choice. Besides he can't coach the Lions forever.

Whereas Gatland can't coach the Lions at all!

 

Conor O'Shea!

Joe Schmidt!

Jim mallinder, nick mallet, dean Richards

You must have been peeking. My suggestion back then was Conor O'Shea.

The problem is that to be fair it needs to be someone not coaching the other home nations. As we don't have many coaches coaching international rugby elsewhere you're essentially looking for a guy either unemployed or in club rugby. The former means perhaps they aren't good enough to coach international rugby - where would the credentials be. The latter would introduce bias too - you'd have to go for a successful club coach - would Cockerill be free from bias claims if he had picked as many tigers as we have now?

Kingsley Jones? Coach of Russia! International but not home nations. We're scraping the barrel a bit when looking for a B&I coach not coaching the home nations.

But the Lions coach is a very different role from a club or national coach.

Guy Noves

Alex Ferguson

MrsP wrote:But the Lions coach is a very different role from a club or national coach.

So what are the jobs a suitable candidate is involved with atm then?

I know, Stuart Barnes!, Loves the Irish, played for England, born in Wales and I think he's visited Scotland a few times...perfect!!

Within 4 years, Joe Schmidt would have been an ideal choice - if he wasn't from NZ.

Guess we'll see what happens over next two years but hope we don't have debacle of the perceived "bias" that has accompanied this Tour.  

Howley, Rountree and Farrell sound excellent as a Sky TV pundit panel, not on the next Tour.  Although there should be personnel who were there this year and know what to avoid......I guess there may be some comments on that particular point.

tigerleghorn wrote:I know, Stuart Barnes!, Loves the Irish, played for England, born in Wales and I think he's visited Scotland a few times...perfect!!

I'll take Gatland again over Stuart Barnes.........man drives me nuts as it is without him being in charge of one of my favourite sporting events.

doctor -grey got it right first time. Conor O'Shea. Great player, brilliant tactician, has has taken Quins to a new level after Dean Richards.

Second choice, probably not PC at the time of appointment Dean Richards.

Gatland was always going to be contentious, as a Kiwi, for being renowned for having deaf ears to others ideas and for being a stubborn basket with little imagination. See Wales game plan, effective in the NH, rubbish on firm hard grounds of the SH. Just look at recent game history.

SH sides need unlocking, not being beaten down.

tigerleghorn wrote:

MrsP wrote:But the Lions coach is a very different role from a club or national coach.

So what are the jobs a suitable candidate is involved with atm then?

 Sorry.

I was out!

I meant that the role of Lions coach is very compressed. You don't have to consider the whole season or juggling different competitions or even if there will be knock out stages to factor in. You don't have the constraints of Salary caps or contracts. You do not need long term planning.

You probably don't even need to do much "coaching" as you will be dealing with a very highly skilled group already.

You need to find a way of playing which best utilises the excellent players you have at your disposal to blend them into the best team you can in a very short space of time.

MrsP, totally agree, why didn't the people that choose the Lions coach listen to yu?

Michael Bradley. They might get hammered but it'll be sexy rugby

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:MrsP, totally agree, why didn't the people that choose the Lions coach listen to yu?

 A question that I ask myself almost daily!

 

Maybe I should allow my name to be put forward for 2017?

Closest thing we've seen to that recently was Stuart Lancaster in the 2012 Six Nations. Took over a team in disarray, introduced a ton of new players, and came reasonably close to a Grand Slam. Gatland himself went one better in 2008 though.

I suppose the key is that you need great tactical coaches rather than skills coaches. You're not going to be able to make them noticeably better players just through drills in that short space of time (I think players can improve a lot on the tours but more because of the whole environment than the coaches themselves), but you do need someone who can devise a gameplan to suit the players available, and know precisely which attributes to prioritise when separating two top class internationals. You also need a motivator and someone who can manage a group of highly ambitious and talented individuals who know from the outset that they've got a less than 50% chance of making the first test XV.

I think its also possible for the right kind of club coach to do it - if they have the personal standing and presence required (a history of playing for the Lions wouldnt do any harm). One of the big differences club to international is the amount of contact with the players. The good club coach wont be stepping so far out of his comfort zone with having to fight for contact time over the course of the tour.

Question; should the Lions coach be appointed three years before the tour from a selection of candidates not employed with national teams, who could then watch, monitor and develop a style of play and ghost squad similar to the EPS. He would have the following advantages:

No national squad bias

Time to develop a game plan and an EPS style squad capable of delivering it

Would have back up players lined up in case of injury

Could take coaching sessions in closed season subject to availability, not full on sessions, but tactical

Would have more time to know the players and develop a squad ethos very early

Plus numerous other advantages the amount of wine I have consumed is keeping from me.

3 years salary for something we all do for nothing?

This gig is looking more attractive by the minute!

Safe - Connor O Shea
Bold - Dean Richards
Maverick - Eddie O Sullivan
Reckless - Lyn Jones

Perhaps the problem lies with a lack of coaching balance. No Irish or Scots coaches to sing the praises of their native guys. Maybe future tours should have a coach from each nation.

Anyone reckon Toonie might be a Lions coach one day? He has really done well this season at Glasgow although the solid foundations had been laid by his kilted kiwi predecessor.

 
Reckless - !!!! How very dare you

Why has this thread not been locked?

I thought we had agreed that I was the best person for the job?

Martin Johnson

I proposed Eddie O'Sullivan before Gatland was announced, and stand by that.  he has recent international experience but is not currently involved with any of the Lions constituent nations set ups.

broadlandboy wrote:Martin Johnson

+1

MrsP wrote:Why has this thread not been locked?

I thought we had agreed that I was the best person for the job?

Well then, sweetie, get your bum to Oz. There is still time for you to salvage this mess.
And thereby salvage my weekend.
And, wouldn't that make you fell better about yourself?

Then you can start planing for 4 years from now.

Sweetie?

I mean, seriously?

MrsP wrote:Sweetie?

I mean, seriously?

It's not just me then that finds you really annoying#GodblessMrP

Barney McGrew did it wrote:

broadlandboy wrote:Martin Johnson

+1

I was thinking the same from a management and motivational point of view. He'd need a strong coaching team around him but it could work!

Gatland wasthe best choice. The same numpties moaned about Henry and he lost and what a coach he turned out to be hahahaha

Sir Graham Henry was free.

rainbow-warrior wrote:Gatland wasthe best choice.  The same numpties moaned about Henry and he lost and what a coach he turned out to be hahahaha

Whilst Gatland and Henry are, I believe, great coaches, I also believe that with the benefit of hindsight they were poor coaches of the Lions. It's a very weird job coaching the Lions as Mrs P has pointed out!

I'm not sure it's the coaching to be honest.

I think realistically the players just aren't there. Not that they're not capable and good players who may excel in their own team environment. It's just that the kind of player who can gel in this kind of environment is not the kind of player produced in the NH.

GloriousEmpire wrote:I'm not sure it's the coaching to be honest.

I think realistically the players just aren't there. Not that they're not capable and good players who may excel in their own team environment. It's just that the kind of player who can gel in this kind of environment is not the kind of player produced in the NH.

As opposed to who?? God bless the equator hahaha

Norfolklass wrote:

MrsP wrote:Sweetie?

I mean, seriously?

It's not just me then that finds you really annoying#GodblessMrP

  

Nice. Really nice!

Nothing to do with rugby mind but certainly classy.

WELL-PAST-IT wrote:doctor -grey got it right first time. Conor O'Shea. Great player, brilliant tactician, has has taken Quins to a new level after Dean Richards.

Second choice, probably not PC at the time of appointment Dean Richards.

Gatland was always going to be contentious, as a Kiwi, for being renowned for having deaf ears to others ideas and for being a stubborn basket with little imagination. See Wales game plan, effective in the NH, rubbish on firm hard grounds of the SH. Just look at recent game history.

SH sides need unlocking, not being beaten down.

O'Shea wasnt a great player. I recall some fans calling him Conor O'Sh1t. I dont think he would be a great coach either. He might be a good administrator though.

Ozzy3213 wrote:I proposed Eddie O'Sullivan before Gatland was announced, and stand by that.  he has recent international experience but is not currently involved with any of the Lions constituent nations set ups.

It probably sounded like an odd call at the time but I think he would have done a better job because he was very organised and creative. One thing no one can ever take away for Eddie is that he got Ireland playing the most exciting rugby they have ever played.

Shame he has been out of the game for so long.

My dream team:

Backs coach: Joe Schmidt
Forwards coach: Deano
Manager: ?
Defense: Kiss

MrsP wrote:Sweetie?

I mean, seriously?

Sorry. Is Madam Sweetie or Mistress Sweetie better?

doctor_grey wrote:

MrsP wrote:Sweetie?

I mean, seriously?

Sorry.  Is Madam Sweetie or Mistress Sweetie better?

  

But be careful.

Some folk on here don't seem to "get" banter between friends.

Nick Mallet

Mourinho. Despite his gobby reputation, Gatland's selections and tactics have done the talking for him. We need soundbites that we can jump on and justify our resentment of the coach. After a Real Madrid press conference, the journos and fans had all the ammo they needed. The Special One for me.

If the NZRU gave Henry a second chance in 2007, maybe the Lions could allow him to learn from his mistakes in 2001. If you're looking for a better knowledge of NZ rugby and conditions, you'd be looking in vain.

 A win on Saturday and I can see Gatland becoming the new Geech where he has influence on the next few Lions tours

kiakahaaotearoa wrote:If the NZRU gave Henry a second chance in 2007, maybe the Lions could allow him to learn from his mistakes in 2001. If you're looking for a better knowledge of NZ rugby and conditions, you'd be looking in vain.

I think that is actually a good shout, but would he take the job? I think his legacy is pretty secure now and he seems content to take work more as a consultant instead of stepping back into one of the big, big jobs of international rugby.

If we could have him it would be great but I don't see it.

I think Nick Mallett should have got the job.

knows both the NH & SH game and is a proven winner with both small and big teams. A good tactican too.

flyhalffactory wrote:Alex Ferguson

Would have seen a better kicking game.