Harlequins 2013/14 Season Discussion Thread

[yappysnap]

First topic message reminder :

So a few other teams had their own threads last season, it seemed to work well and seeing as it's far easier to steal someone else's idea then think up your own...

WELCOME TO THE HARLEQUINS 2013/14 SEASON DISCUSSION THREAD!

The Squad for 13/14:
Director of Rugby Conor O'Shea
Head Coach John Kingston
First Team Coach Tony Diprose
Assistant First Team Coach Mark Mapletoft
Assistant First Team Coach Collin Osborne

Hooker
Joe Gray
Rob Buchanan
Dave Ward

Loosehead Prop:
Joe Marler
Mark Lambert
Nick Mayhew
Daryl Marfo

Tighthead Prop
Paul Doran Jones
Will Collier
Kyle Sinckler  

Lock
George Robson   
Charlie Matthews
George Merrick
Sam Twomey  

Blindside
Maurie Fa'asavalu
Joe Trayfoot  

Openside
Chris Robshaw
Luke Wallace

Number 8
Nick Easter
Tom Guest
Jack Clifford

Scrum Half
Danny Care
Karl Dickson

Fly Half
Nick Evans  
Ben Botica
Louis Grimoldby

Inside Centre
Jordan Turner-Hall  
Tom Casson  
Harry Sloan

Outside Centre
George Lowe
Matt Hopper
Charlie Walker

Wing
Ugo Monye
Tom Williams
Sam Smith
Miles Mantella


Fullback
Mike Brown
Ross Chisholm
Ollie Lindsay-Hague

Fixtures:

Harlequins are pleased to confirm an exciting and challenging opening for the 2013-14 Aviva Premiership season.
 
The Londoners kick-off the new season against local rivals London Wasps at Twickenham Stadium during the London Double Header on 7th September, kick-off 4.30pm (Live on BT Sport).

2013 Aviva Premiership finalists, Northampton Saints are the visitors for the first home game at The Twickenham Stoop on Friday 13th September, kick-off 7:45pm (Live on BT Sport).

The second home game welcomes Heineken Cup semi-finalists Saracens on 28th September, kick-off 3.15pm (Live on BT Sport).

Exeter Chiefs will be the visitors to Twickenham Stadium for the sixth Big Game on Saturday 28th December. More information about Big Game 6 will be provided in coming months.

The Londoners will open their Heineken Cup campaign over the weekend of the 11th/12th/13th October, while the defence of the LV= Cup will begin during the second weekend of November. Fixture dates and times are expected by ERC and Premiership rugby later this month.

The only way to guarantee your place at all of the regular season home fixtures is by becoming a Member. Information on the innovative Membership scheme and how to become a Member is available by clicking here or by calling 0208 744 4477.

"There is no such thing as an easy match in the Aviva Premiership and there is no doubt that our opening fixtures are very demanding," said Conor O'Shea, Harlequins Director of Rugby.

"Once again we will be competing in three great competitions against top class opposition from this country and Europe. Our Premiership campaign gets underway with the London Double Header against Wasps on 7th September and is followed during that month with tough home matches with Northampton Saints and Saracens as well as a trip to Sixways to play against Dean Ryan's Worcester.

"Given the quality of the opposition, we hope that our supporters will be looking forward to returning to The Stoop to get behind their team as we set out on the marathon that is the Premiership with all its related ups and downs."

Tickets for the new season's home games will go on sale on Monday 15th July. Tickets can be purchased online or by calling 0208 410 6000
Harlequins Fixtures
Please note fixtures after Round 8 are subject to change

Round 1
Saturday September 7: London Wasps v Harlequins (4.30pm, Twickenham Stadium, BT Sport)

Round 2
Friday September 13:Harlequins v Northampton Saints (7.45pm BT Sport)

Round3
Friday September 21: Worcester Warriors v Harlequins (7.45pm BT Sport)

Round 4
Saturday September 28: Harlequins v Saracens (3.15pm BT Sport)

Round 5
Saturday October 5: London Irish v Harlequins (3.00pm)

Heineken Cup
Fri/Sat/Sun October 11/12/13 Heineken Cup

Fri/Sat/Sun October 18/19/20 Heineken Cup

Round 6
Saturday October 26: Harlequins v Sale Sharks (3.00pm)

Round 7
Saturday November 2: Leicester Tigers v Harlequins (5.30pm BT Sport)

LV= Cup
Fri/Sat/Sun November 9 LV= Cup

Fri/Sat/Sun November 16 LV= Cup

Round 8
Saturday November 23: Harlequins v Gloucester Rugby (3.00pm)

Round 9
Sunday December 1: Newcastle Falcons v Harlequins (3.00pm)

Heineken Cup
Fri/Sat/Sun Dec 6/7/8 Heineken Cup

Fri/Sat/Sun Dec 13/14/15Heineken Cup

Round 10
Saturday December 21st: Bath Rugby v Harlequins (3.00pm)

Round 11
Sat December 28: BIG GAME 6 Harlequins v Exeter Chiefs (3.00pm)

Round 12
Saturday January 4: Northampton Saints v Harlequins (3.00pm)

Heineken Cup
Fri/Sat/Sun January 10/11/12 Heineken Cup
Fri/Sat/ Sun January 17/18/19 Heineken Cup

LV= Cup
Fri/Sat/Sun Jan 24/25/26 LV= Cup
Fri/Sat/Sun Jan 31 Feb 1 /2 LV= Cup

Round 13
Saturday February 8: Harlequins v London Wasps (3.00pm)

Round 14
Saturday February 15: Harlequins v Newcastle Falcons (3.00pm)

Round 15
Saturday February 22: Gloucester Rugby v Harlequins (3.00pm)

Round 16
Saturday March 1: Harlequins v Worcester Warriors (3.00pm)

Round 17
Saturday March 22: Saracens v Harlequins (3.00pm)

Round 18
Saturday March 29: Harlequins v London Irish (3.00pm)

Round 19
Friday April 11: Sale Sharks v Harlequins (7.45pm)

Round 20
Saturday April 19: Harlequins v Leicester Tigers (3.00pm)

Round 21
Saturday May 3: Exeter Chiefs v Harlequins (3.00pm)

Round 22
Saturday May 10: Harlequins v Bath Rugby (3.00pm)

Whether you're a Quins fan or not please feel free to discuss, argue, banter and bicker below. And  to 2014's Aviva Prem Champs!!    

COYQ's!!!!

[propdavid_london]

The system is now an electronic card to swipe in and out of the gates replacing the old book of tickets. No probs there - its the modern world.
I think the reasons for this we largely a reaction to that Munster H-Cup game. Quins seemed to largely blame the supporters for passing their tickets on to Munster supporters. There seemed to be more of an issue with that than the fact that the team played poorly. I'm not sure, but I think that the new system is more trackable than the old.

But for me, its the increases in price -
When I brought my ticket 3 seasons ago it was £99 that has steadily increased and I still thought I've had good value for money, despite still playing myself on Saturdays and only going when there isn't a fixture conflict.
To renew now for the same area is £319.

[propdavid_london]

Yappy - I'm not sure mate, it will be interesting to see if the overall numbers in attendance will be affected.
Its the 1st home game against a really strong looking Saints team - I would still be surprised if they don't get a good number for this one.

I just think that Quins admin guys have overreached a touch this season. I thought their long term objectives were to increase season ticket sales and sell out over 5 games in the season. If they reached this then they were intending to continue with the stadium expansion and improvements - If they wanted that then they should have kept the ST packages reasonable and people would have kept them.

I'm not sure what the ST packages are like at other clubs so I don't know if Quins are just adjusting to the others or if they are just being a smidge greedy.

[propdavid_london]

Well, that game on Friday was disappointing!

[yappysnap]

11,000 reported at the game. I guess that's mostly due to weather but not bad numbers.

Terrible conditions.

Positives: handling was much improved and we offloaded far better. Defense was properly physical. Forced a lot of turn overs.

Negatives: our pack are really going to struggle against the other top sides and Europe could be brutal. Difficult to really judge the backs but the quality of passes (not offloads) was rubbish compared to Saints.

[yappysnap]

Oh and Prop. I agree that the admin/finance/ticket guys might have made an error. Seems like a lot of unhappy people on CAW.

[propdavid_london]

Morning Yappy,
Agree that the numbers weren't bad - but that's possibly also due to 1st home game of campaign, and playing a top 4 side that's expected to do well this season. It's really when we play bottom half of table sides, late Nov - Early Dec that I think we will see lower attendances than previous seasons.

Terrible conditions on Friday - was always going to be a dog fight. Its days like that that we really miss Kohn and Johnson.

Casson did well and put in a few great hits.

[Poorfour]

I came out of Friday's game feeling very wet but overall quite positive. Quins weren't overpowered by Saints, and had the better of the second half (apart from the try). Nick Evans needs to sort out his kicking, but other than that there wasn't much between the sides.

The try itself involved one poor decision from Quins (to telegraph the box kick), a fair amount of luck in the way the ball bounced and a bad miss by the referees in the build up (Foden's pass before the maul looked clearly forward from the stands and still looked forward on replay - the scrum should have been near the 22 and not on the 5m line).

It's a disappointing loss, but I thought (and COS clearly thought) the performance was a big step up from the previous week.

[propdavid_london]

And at least there was a loosing BP.

[ChequeredJersey]

I'm no longer scared of Saints at all, they looked beatable. Sarries soon though, and we always struggle there

[thomh]

I came out of Friday's game feeling very wet but overall quite positive. Quins weren't overpowered by Saints, and had the better of the second half (apart from the try). Nick Evans needs to sort out his kicking, but other than that there wasn't much between the sides.

The try itself involved one poor decision from Quins (to telegraph the box kick), a fair amount of luck in the way the ball bounced and a bad miss by the referees in the build up (Foden's pass before the maul looked clearly forward from the stands and still looked forward on replay - the scrum should have been near the 22 and not on the 5m line).

It's a disappointing loss, but I thought (and COS clearly thought) the performance was a big step up from the previous week.

I do wonder whether the loss of Johnston and now Kohn's weight in the front five might mean Wallace not getting quite as much of a run as we'd hoped this season. Fa'asavalu may have lost some of his 2011/2012 power, but he's still a more physical type of player and they might think that we need him to match other sides in the pack.

[yappysnap]

I thought Fa'Asavalu was back to his old form on Fri. He had far more impact around the game and gave us momentum. Unfortunately for Wallace Easter was brilliant all over the pitch and then Guest came on and gave us a real injection of energy.

So that's Mo, Easter and Guest all demanding inclusion matchday alongside Robshaw. Then there's Wallace who's still struggling a little.

[yappysnap]

Oh and just quickly, I'd like to see us rotate a few players for the weekends game against Wuss. Keep the competition for places high and give a few fringe lads a game, especially with how well the A sides done the last two seasons.

Lambert, Buchanan, Collier
Merrick, Robson
Mo, Robshaw
Guest
Care
Botica, Casson, Hopper
Walker, Brown, Monye

Bench: Ward, Marler, PDJ, Easter, Wallace, Dickson, Evans, Williams

[yappysnap]

Another season another loss to Sarries...

Oh well. It's too early to read too much into this but to be honest it's what I expected. We all knew we'd struggle and it was in the inevitable areas; namely set piece, breakdown and creating chances. We were firmly second in all three of those in the second half and it was noticeable that Sarries easily had a higher gear to grind into while we were giving our all just to try to keep up with them.

Like I've been saying for pretty much the whole season we haven't replaced the out going players well enough. I love Quins policy on using the youngsters but if you genuinely want to be title contenders year in year out then you can't have seasons just building, which it seems like we are doing now. You must bring in enough talent to keep the title chase going while the youngsters learn.

Obviously again it's really too early to tell how this season will go but it's not a good start for us.

On a plus note we started well last season and look how that went. Perhaps it's all part of the plan.

[doctor_grey]

I've seen a few Quins matches so far.  Youse guys certainly appear a little flat, almost as if that extra spark is missing so far.  But there is a long way to go - the finals are about 8 months away.  I am sure you will kick on a bit and find better form........

[yappysnap]

Yea we are pretty flat. Behind Evans the backline is just looking too average. Brown is the only stand out and he isn't going to be able to do everything for us. Our centre's still aren't clicking and while the wings are hardy workmen they're best years are behind them. Sadly the guys that would be next in line are injured also.

When you look at the backlines of the other top four competitors it's worrying.

[yappysnap]

Ok just watched the game again and it's not as doom and gloom as I first thought.

Our backline is struggling but all the players there showed glimpses of very good skills, it's just getting them to combine more effectively that'll be the difference. I really think we're missing an on form JTH as Lowe is having to tackle a lot more and he's not getting any crash ball to run off of, he's shown though that when a gap appears he can be dangerous. This seems to be where we're struggling to create as both our centre's are set up to just ship ball along instead of straightening the line.

Likewise our pack actually did pretty well standing up to the best pack in the Prem (in my opinion) obviously we're going to be weaker with the injuries and loss of top quality players but i'm a lot happier having watched the replay.

[propdavid_london]

Hi Yappy - I've not seen the recording yet. But I really thought at the time that the ref made some bad decisions in the 2nd Half. Was that reflected on the replay or were most of his decisions correct?

[propdavid_london]

On a positive - Nev kicked most of his goals - barring one post strike.

[beshocked]

Yappysnap your pack stood up well in the first half. Did very well physically but I felt like they basically used up all that intensity in the first half. From the 30 minute mark onwards - pretty much all the pressure came from Sarries.

Big plus point for Quins should be the defence. Only 1 try conceded despite being dominated in terms of territory. It has held up well vs two of the top sides - that should bode well.


Your wingers were very physical with their tackling but I didn't see enough threat from your backline.

Care and Brown are excellent players but the guys around them simply did not perform for whatever reason.

Williams and Monye for all their huffing and puffing just aren't the answer. I think you'll need to put Walker and Chisholm into the 1st XV when they come back from injury to add a bit more threat outwide.


The biggest question should be - how can Quins create more opportunities? Looks like you believe centre is the biggest thing but I don't.

I think you need to be more patient. I felt that you tried to force things too much which played into Sarries' hands.

Got to earn the right to go wide.

[LondonTiger]

Quins have lost twice now to probably two of the three best teams - and each time struggled with the physicality of their opponents.

On Saturday i though the ref was fine, but at times needed more help from his TJs. Saracens were the better team and deserved the win, but a real lack of composure and an absence of any real flair from the centres meant they did not score the points they should. This could have hurt them if the ref had been kept informed of:

a) The number of times Mako went down to his knees before getting back up and driving inwards
b) that often the flying defensive line had set off far too early.

Some Quins fans may quibble about just how long Sarries were allowed to slow ball down for, but Burger was at times penalised out of the game and Quins were just as guilty of lying all over the ball.

In the end, the match was an arm-wrestle and Saracens were bigger and stronger.

[beshocked]

Londontiger don't forget the amount of not straight lineouts by Quins. You could tell how scared the Quins hooker was of Borthwick.

5 not straight lineouts in a row - one spotted by the ref that was the worst of the lot. It was amusing that the one time the Quins hooker actually threw straight, Borthwick stole the lineout. Didn't make the same mistake after that. The commentators even mentioned some of the not straight lineouts to prove it wasn't just me with that opinion.

Sarries weren't clinical in the 1st half - blew 3 try scoring opportunities. Quins should be pleased with their clinical play in the 1st half - took every point on offer.

[LondonTiger]

Strangely that was the first lineout steal I have actually seen Borthwick do in over a year. I know he does them (almost as many as Parling ) but never when I watch.

I actually thought that both hookers were throwing down their own line as the ref had seemed to decide not to bother policing it.

[ChequeredJersey]

Refs have given up on straight scrum feeds too. Already

[yappysnap]

Prop, to be honest this season i'm trying to go with the viewpoint that the ref will at times screw up, it's inevitable, likewise the opposition will cheat as much as possible so we should be wise to that. Yep Sarries played right on the edge but we just didn't do enough to negate that. IMO the ref wasn't great but he didn't have an effect on the game. We just didn't have enough energy or a good enough bench to keep up with the intensity of the game, and we only had maybe three chances to score and had to nail one of them. We didn't and that was a real killer.

Beshocked, cheers for your viewpoint there. I pretty much agree with all of it. I've been saying for ages that our wings aren't good enough, and I do think we'd see Chisholm or Ollie Lindsey-Hague starting every week but they're both injured for most of the season unfortunately. That leaves us with no real threat out wide.

Our whole gameplan relies on patience but patience while playing the risks, we like to offload and move the ball around to work space for our backs and backrow. Unfortunately without a big back who can generate momentum both our centre's just ship the ball to the wings or are easily tackled behind the gainline.

We always try to force things, because we know that if we force enough opportunities the boys will eventually score enough to win. But when we're off form it just doesn't work out.

LT, yea we have struggled with the physicality from Saints and Sarries so far. The acid test will be you boys in Nov; have we learnt enough from those losses and with hopefully a few of the injured back to get the win?

[beshocked]

Chequeredjersey I agree with that. Not many straight feeds.

Londontiger I thought most of the Sarries lineout throws were straight but perhaps that's just me.

Yappysnap you had three chances to score? When?

[ChequeredJersey]

I recall one with our cross field kick that Monye couldn't quite get but that's it from me

[beshocked]

I suppose that could count as a chance but it wasn't really that clear cut.

[propdavid_london]

Yes LT - it was the scrum penalties that I was more upset with.
Stevens was on his knees in the scrum and Collier was still being pinged for incorrect bind. To my mind, if you cant even support your weight in the scrum that is a worse offence than binding. It was painfully obvious from the stands but there was no chatter from the touch judge to the ref when he was on the other side of the scrum.

[Poorfour]

I thought in the first half Sarries were happy to concede the penalties, and Quins were happy to take them. Goode's yellow was to stop a break that was a very good scoring chance, for instance.

In the second half, Sarries worked out what Mr Fox would let them get away with and Quins didn't adapt. Pretty unhappy with the way the scrum was refereed - Mako looked in all sorts of trouble on the bind on more than one occasion and was never picked up, and there was one scrum where Sarries popped up en masse in their attempt to drive through a Quins pack that was under pressure but not going back and - crucially - all still had correct body position. How that was a penalty to Sarries I cannot understand.

The better team won on the day, but I felt our performance was better than in most of our recent encounters.

[propdavid_london]

Agree with that Poorfour - The better team won - not disputing that. But I do think that Mr Fox and his touch judge team had a bad day at the office.

I'm still not convinced about these scrum rules! I don't see any real change in the number of collapses and there is just as much ambiguity in the way the scrum is refereed.

[lostinwales]

I wonder if anyone has actually asked why referees may not be looking after scrums properly and, probably a lot more crucially, what help they feel they might need to do so?

[ChequeredJersey]

I still think Brian Moore should referee every single scrum

[propdavid_london]

Do we think that the video ref could watch the scrums in real time, and if there are constant re-sets he is allowed to talk to the referee if he see's an offence?

[beshocked]

Agree with that Poorfour - The better team won - not disputing that.  But I do think that Mr Fox and his touch judge team had a bad day at the office.

I'm still not convinced about these scrum rules! I don't see any real change in the number of collapses and there is just as much ambiguity in the way the scrum is refereed.

Sounds like you are aggrieved about the scrums in regards to the ref. I am aggrieved about the poor officiating at the lineout - Quins didn't seem to need to throw a straight lineout according to the ref - actually he did spot the most obvious of the lot to be fair to him.

I think the refs need to up their game.

[propdavid_london]

Yup - good point beshocked - I'm not disputing the result. Sarries did a very good job on the Quins chaps.
Needs to be more accountability for the officials team (not just the ref).
I do hope that both CoS and McCall both go to the reviewer after the game and make their respective points.

[Poorfour]

There's a trend emerging in refereeing where the ref calls for a TMO review and then makes his own call having seen the replay on the screen.

I would like to see this formalised - that the referee can ask for particular plays to be replayed so that he can make up his own mind. Obviously only under specific circumstances - try scoring, potential foul play.

But I'd also like the role of the TMO changed so that they can provide proactive feedback to the ref at breaks in play - e.g. "check the lineouts from white, they're not straight", or "black persistently preventing white from rolling away".

Would need careful definition, but I like the idea of a neutral expert alerting the ref to things he may have missed so that he can check for them in future. Should be the ARs' job, but since they persistently fail to do it, we should try another option.

[propdavid_london]

Agree Poorfour - the TMO is also less inclined to be swayed one way or the other by the home support.
He wouldn't be making the final decision but offering advice on the state of play.
Perhaps just on officiating the re-starts - covering Kick-off's, Line-outs, Scrums etc.

[lostinwales]

I think its easier for you/us to come up with these ideas, and some of them may be very good. I personally would be very interested to get an actual referee's take on the problems and possible solutions

[propdavid_london]

Not seen the highlights yet - But a loss to LI!
My team lost on the weekend - and then sitting in the pub I checked the prem results and saw the Quins score.
I was not a happy chap for most of Saturday.

[yappysnap]

Can't bring myself to watch the recording yet. Haven't even checked the score. A loss is a loss, and to London Irish. It sucks big time.

[ChequeredJersey]

Can't bring myself to watch the recording yet. Haven't even checked the score. A loss is a loss, and to London Irish. It sucks big time.

Still time to recover. We will need to play better though, and we need a plan B

[yappysnap]

Oh definitely. I am always impressed by your optimism though CJ!

Can we really play worse then that? We had a plan B. We had a very good tight game a couple of seasons ago and it even appeared last season. Unfortunately the two key players for that tight game have left. I'm not really sure what plan B we can make now. Even faster and looser...

[Trevor40]

as predicted Quins are awful. Underpowered forwards, a ponderous back row, out of form and past it half backs, the worst centres in the Prem and the slowest back three anywhere in world rugby.

[beshocked]

It all hinges upon Quins rediscovering their attacking mojo.

Points conceded - Quins aren't at all far off the top 3 and in terms of tries conceded it's similar (joint 3rd).

[yappysnap]

I wouldnt worry Beshocked he's just a WUM who's migrated across from the Quins forum. Agree though if we can just rediscover our attacking form then things won't continue to slide, a lot of that comes down to the tight five and centres.

[Jenifer McLadyboy]

as predicted Quins are awful. Underpowered forwards, a ponderous back row, out of form and past it half backs, the worst centres in the Prem and the slowest back three anywhere in world rugby.

logansrun38's little brother? Alias? Gay lover?

[beshocked]

I don't think it's just them yappysnap you need to work upon.

You need to have more faith in the speedsters like Walker and Chisholm.

Picking an actual lock in the 2nd row would in all likelihood help too. Would improve the set piece.

Don't know why you didn't challenge London Irish for the signing of Ian Gough.

Surely Botica could be switched to centre to get both him and Evans on the pitch at the same time?

[Trevor40]

not saying anything that isnt true.

[propdavid_london]

I haven't seen the highlights of the LI game - but on the report it looked like Botica replaced Casson reasonably early in the game. Unfortunately that didn't seem to impact on the result.

[Trevor40]

Botica isnt a 12. Mind you, on current form Casson isnt either.

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