Wimbledon - Mens Semi Final Day 12

First topic message reminder :

Well here we are at the business end. Centre Court will be the gladitorial theatre. Here's hoping for some blockbuster encounters and winners by the bucketloads!

Novak Djokovic v Juan Martin Del Potro

Andy Murray v Jerzy Janowicz

The first one certainly the pick of the matches.

The money is on another Andy v Novak final. Can Delpo and Jerzy cause the top seeds a massive upset to rival the biggest upsets?

To be honest I'd sooner see Andy win slams rather than reach No.1. By this I mean I'd be far happier if Andy retired having won say 3+ slams and havving never reached No.1 than having won just one slam and made it to No.1.

Henman Bill wrote:Murray has justified his no 2 ranking ahead of Nadal now with 3 out of the last 4 slam finals. But I will add he hasn't achieved it by actually beating Nadal, since the two have really avoided each other for the most part in recent times. That's an overdue match on the tour. So it's still all to play for and for me if you asked me who is more likely to finish in the top 2 say one year from now (i.e. resetting the points from now to zero) if all players are fully fit and motivated it's not clear to me if you would go with Murray or Rafa

Not certain how Rafa can be seen as a threat to Murray at the remaining hard courts. He's fair game now away for clay, I'd maintain that Verdasco (if he'd forgotten who he was playing) and JJ would both have beaten him. Let's face it, he no longer has the knees to face hard hitters away from clay

Even if he gets that far I fail to see how a more aggessive Murray (who incidentally beat him last time they met) can be second best against a player who isn't as good on hard courts as he was in 2011

I'd relish seeing it to be honest - but we can't keep bigging Nadal up if he can't get past players he should be beating

banbrotam wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:Murray has justified his no 2 ranking ahead of Nadal now with 3 out of the last 4 slam finals. But I will add he hasn't achieved it by actually beating Nadal, since the two have really avoided each other for the most part in recent times. That's an overdue match on the tour. So it's still all to play for and for me if you asked me who is more likely to finish in the top 2 say one year from now (i.e. resetting the points from now to zero) if all players are fully fit and motivated it's not clear to me if you would go with Murray or Rafa

Not certain how Rafa can be seen as a threat to Murray at the remaining hard courts. He's fair game now away for clay, I'd maintain that Verdasco (if he'd forgotten who he was playing) and JJ would both have beaten him. Let's face it, he no longer has the knees to face hard hitters away from clay

Even if he gets that far I fail to see how a more aggessive Murray (who incidentally beat him last time they met) can be second best against a player who isn't as good on hard courts as he was in 2011

I'd relish seeing it to be honest -  but we can't keep bigging Nadal up if he can't get past players he should be beating

Nadal won Indian Wells 1000 on HC this year so he's hardly 'fair game away from clay'

Indian Wells was a full field to boot, so not a gimme title.

Nadal's still got Murray covered.

Right, but the last hard court tournament with all the big guys was...Indian Wells. Winner: Rafa. He walked in there having not played on hard for about ..a year? And won it! He may have benefitted from the draw and Del Potro taking out Murray and Djokovic but even so, that is a very big tournament.

Rafa is a 2-time hard court slam champion, 1 for Murray.

As for the knees, he's been written off so many times before...

All I'm saying is..not clear cut.

Murray may be the favourite on hard but not by much.

HM Murdoch wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:How do you feel for Sunday Murdoch, confident? Unsure?

Unsure.

I think Novak is playing a little better overall than Andy but he hasn't converted the break points at all well this fortnight.

And I don't expect Andy to give him many, so I kind of expect a match that feels close as you watch it but a final scoreline looks like a relatively straight forward win for Andy.

Not much in it though.

You?

I'll stick my neck out  I think the fast condtions we'll have on Sunday (likely to be 90 degrees on CC) which has been responsible for that new bite in Murray's serve, suit him more than Novak.

Andy's wins have arguably occured on the fastest conditions they've played each other

I thought Novak looked laboured at times today. I know it's very hard against DP at the moment (a player I now rate) but I thought that he didn't play tactically that well, where were the drop shots to get DP bending on that dodgy knee, what about slicing and dicing a bit more

It could be also that because Andy has played less matches this year, that reaps dividends

I'm genuinely not bothered who wins as I'm more pleased that both have made the final and stuck it up their critics on these boards  

CaledonianCraig wrote:Sunday is a very interesting match-up. I would have to say that Novak has played at the higher level more consistently throughout this tournament compared to Andy. However, I would say that Andy is the better grass court player. It could go either way.

How exactly is Murray a better grass court player than Murray?

Djokovic has won Wimbledon. Murray hasn't.

Forget about the Olympics. It was best of 3 until the final. Best of 5 Djokovic is the toughest on tour to beat.

Grass aside, Djokovic already hammered Murray in Melbourne this year.

Djokovic has won fewer grass court tournaments than Murray and has a lower winning percentage of matches on grass than Murray. I hope that explains things Gerry.

Yes, let's forget about the matches that don't suit your argument. Murray was the better player on grass before 2011 and has the overall more consistent record as well as the Olympics but Djokovic has the W title, so it's not clear cut. Maybe Sunday decides that question, at least for now.

Back to Rafa vs Murray on hard

Overall: Rafa 6-5 Murray
2007: 2-0
2008: 1-1
2009: 1-1
2010: 1-2
2011: 1-1

Not played since 2011.

With matches being evenly shared and Murray arguably now an improved player yes he could be the favourite but I think they owe us a tremendous, tight match.

HM Murdoch wrote:

Danny_1982 wrote:How do you feel for Sunday Murdoch, confident? Unsure?

Unsure.

I think Novak is playing a little better overall than Andy but he hasn't converted the break points at all well this fortnight.

And I don't expect Andy to give him many, so I kind of expect a match that feels close as you watch it but a final scoreline looks like a relatively straight forward win for Andy.

Not much in it though.

You?

I went for Novak at the start, and he's played quite a lot better than Andy throughout... But Andy was excellent in the fourth today, easily the best he's played all tournament, and Novak will for sure be more sore than him tomorrow... All of which I think evens it out a bit.

I think I still favour Novak slightly. But if it goes to a fifth I think Murray may have more in the tank.

That enough of a cop out for you?

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:Murray has justified his no 2 ranking ahead of Nadal now with 3 out of the last 4 slam finals. But I will add he hasn't achieved it by actually beating Nadal, since the two have really avoided each other for the most part in recent times. That's an overdue match on the tour. So it's still all to play for and for me if you asked me who is more likely to finish in the top 2 say one year from now (i.e. resetting the points from now to zero) if all players are fully fit and motivated it's not clear to me if you would go with Murray or Rafa

Not certain how Rafa can be seen as a threat to Murray at the remaining hard courts. He's fair game now away for clay, I'd maintain that Verdasco (if he'd forgotten who he was playing) and JJ would both have beaten him. Let's face it, he no longer has the knees to face hard hitters away from clay

Even if he gets that far I fail to see how a more aggessive Murray (who incidentally beat him last time they met) can be second best against a player who isn't as good on hard courts as he was in 2011

I'd relish seeing it to be honest -  but we can't keep bigging Nadal up if he can't get past players he should be beating

Nadal won Indian Wells 1000 on HC this year so he's hardly 'fair game away from clay'

Indian Wells was a full field to boot, so not a gimme title.

Nadal's still got Murray covered.  

Look I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Anyone would think that Nadal owned Murray on hard courts, rather than the 2-2 Slam head to head they have on this surface and share (I think) 4-4 overall since 2008

I also think the IW win, great that is was, was played on the slower of the hard courts. It's no coincidence that he's won this before. Do people really think that if its hot in New York that Rafa is one of the favourites

It's great respecting someone, but let's deal in realities. And the reality is that out of his 13 wins, 12 have been on clay. Another reality is that there are far too many potential bombs for Rafa now, even before reaching the latter stages of a hard court

Imagine an 'on' JJ, Raonic or Berdych against him

In fairness I suspect he knows this and will concentrate on clay

Of course he will be a danger, but so is Tsonga - away from the dirt, Murray and Djokovic have seperated themselves from the rest and I think we should be honest about that

CaledonianCraig wrote:Djokovic has won fewer grass court tournaments than Murray and has a lower winning percentage of matches on grass than Murray. I hope that explains things Gerry.

Sorry but winning Queens a few times is hardly important.

It's a 250.

Djokovic's Wimbledon is more significant than Murray's lesser titles at Queens.

Not sure I agree on the physical issues. Novak's recovery after a tougher semi at the Australian Open was impressive and more difficult. He has won more slam titles including here so could be emotionally steadier as well which is related to the physical conditioning.

I think Novak will be fine. he also rolled through a lot of matches comfortably before today.

Wimbledon at least has a rest day unlike the US Open in the past.

Gerry SA wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Djokovic has won fewer grass court tournaments than Murray and has a lower winning percentage of matches on grass than Murray. I hope that explains things Gerry.

Sorry but winning Queens a few times is hardly important.

It's a 250.

Djokovic's Wimbledon is more significant than Murray's lesser titles at Queens.

You asked how Murray is a better grass court player did you not and I told you. Now unless Queen's does not play on grass then those results count as do Djoko's defeats at likes of Halle. True Djoko won Wimbledon but Murray has now reached the last two Wimbledon Finals and the last five semis at Wimbledon which is a record more consistent than Novak's.

banbrotam wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:Murray has justified his no 2 ranking ahead of Nadal now with 3 out of the last 4 slam finals. But I will add he hasn't achieved it by actually beating Nadal, since the two have really avoided each other for the most part in recent times. That's an overdue match on the tour. So it's still all to play for and for me if you asked me who is more likely to finish in the top 2 say one year from now (i.e. resetting the points from now to zero) if all players are fully fit and motivated it's not clear to me if you would go with Murray or Rafa

Not certain how Rafa can be seen as a threat to Murray at the remaining hard courts. He's fair game now away for clay, I'd maintain that Verdasco (if he'd forgotten who he was playing) and JJ would both have beaten him. Let's face it, he no longer has the knees to face hard hitters away from clay

Even if he gets that far I fail to see how a more aggessive Murray (who incidentally beat him last time they met) can be second best against a player who isn't as good on hard courts as he was in 2011

I'd relish seeing it to be honest -  but we can't keep bigging Nadal up if he can't get past players he should be beating

Nadal won Indian Wells 1000 on HC this year so he's hardly 'fair game away from clay'

Indian Wells was a full field to boot, so not a gimme title.

Nadal's still got Murray covered.  

Look I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Anyone would think that Nadal owned Murray on hard courts, rather than the 2-2 Slam head to head they have on this surface and share (I think) 4-4 overall since 2008

I also think the IW win, great that is was, was played on the slower of the hard courts. It's no coincidence that he's won this before. Do people really think that if its hot in New York that Rafa is one of the favourites

It's great respecting someone, but let's deal in realities. And the reality is that out of his 13 wins, 12 have been on clay. Another reality is that there are far too many potential bombs for Rafa now, even before reaching the latter stages of a hard court

Imagine an 'on' JJ, Raonic or Berdych against him

In fairness I suspect he knows this and will concentrate on clay

Of course he will be a danger, but so is Tsonga - away from the dirt, Murray and Djokovic have seperated themselves from the rest and I think we should be honest about that

Hard Court is Murray's favoured surface yet Nadal leads the H2H.

So on Nadal weakest surface he's more than a match for Murray.

On grass, their second favourite surface, Nadal had Murray in his pocket.

On clay we'll leave that one...

Henman Bill wrote:Not sure I agree on the physical issues. Novak's recovery after a tougher semi at the Australian Open was impressive and more difficult. He has won more slam titles including here so could be emotionally steadier as well which is related to the physical conditioning.

I think Novak will be fine. he also rolled through a lot of matches comfortably before today.

Wimbledon at least has a rest day unlike the US Open in the past.

Yes I agree that Novak will be fine. In any case Andy has has two tough work out in his last two matches so that negates things in any case.

Henman Bill wrote:Back to Rafa vs Murray on hard

Overall: Rafa 6-5 Murray
2007: 2-0
2008: 1-1
2009: 1-1
2010: 1-2
2011: 1-1

Not played since 2011.

With matches being evenly shared and Murray arguably now an improved player yes he could be the favourite but I think they owe us a tremendous, tight match.

Notice that since Murray became a 'player' he leads the head to head.

For me, during the next year or so, I'm far more worried about him facing Raonic, JJ, Del Potro or Bedych than Fedal.

Times are a changing

Banbro, look http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=MC10
at the head to head on the ATP. There is not much evidence that faster hard favours Murray, with Nadal having wins at the slightly faster US Open and World Tour finnals and Murray's wins including Australian OIpen and Toronto which are a little slower I think. To be honest most of the ahrd court tournaments play at about the same sort of speed anyway.

the better argument for me is that the history is from 2011 and before, and Murray has a better serve, forehand and mental strength that he did throughout that entire history.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Djokovic has won fewer grass court tournaments than Murray and has a lower winning percentage of matches on grass than Murray. I hope that explains things Gerry.

Sorry but winning Queens a few times is hardly important.

It's a 250.

Djokovic's Wimbledon is more significant than Murray's lesser titles at Queens.

You asked how Murray is a better grass court player did you not and I told you. Now unless Queen's does not play on grass then those results count as do Djoko's defeats at likes of Halle. True Djoko won Wimbledon but Murray has now reached the last two Wimbledon Finals and the last five semis at Wimbledon which is a record more consistent than Novak's.

Djokovic has made 4 consecutive Wimbledon semis or better.

So he's hardly lagging behind on grass.

Gerry SA wrote:Djokovic's Wimbledon is more significant than Murray's lesser titles at Queens.

Nobody is denying that, but you also can't ignore the fact that Murray has now won his last 17 matches in a row on grass! 23 out of his last 24!

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:Murray has justified his no 2 ranking ahead of Nadal now with 3 out of the last 4 slam finals. But I will add he hasn't achieved it by actually beating Nadal, since the two have really avoided each other for the most part in recent times. That's an overdue match on the tour. So it's still all to play for and for me if you asked me who is more likely to finish in the top 2 say one year from now (i.e. resetting the points from now to zero) if all players are fully fit and motivated it's not clear to me if you would go with Murray or Rafa

Not certain how Rafa can be seen as a threat to Murray at the remaining hard courts. He's fair game now away for clay, I'd maintain that Verdasco (if he'd forgotten who he was playing) and JJ would both have beaten him. Let's face it, he no longer has the knees to face hard hitters away from clay

Even if he gets that far I fail to see how a more aggessive Murray (who incidentally beat him last time they met) can be second best against a player who isn't as good on hard courts as he was in 2011

I'd relish seeing it to be honest -  but we can't keep bigging Nadal up if he can't get past players he should be beating

Nadal won Indian Wells 1000 on HC this year so he's hardly 'fair game away from clay'

Indian Wells was a full field to boot, so not a gimme title.

Nadal's still got Murray covered.  

Look I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Anyone would think that Nadal owned Murray on hard courts, rather than the 2-2 Slam head to head they have on this surface and share (I think) 4-4 overall since 2008

I also think the IW win, great that is was, was played on the slower of the hard courts. It's no coincidence that he's won this before. Do people really think that if its hot in New York that Rafa is one of the favourites

It's great respecting someone, but let's deal in realities. And the reality is that out of his 13 wins, 12 have been on clay. Another reality is that there are far too many potential bombs for Rafa now, even before reaching the latter stages of a hard court

Imagine an 'on' JJ, Raonic or Berdych against him

In fairness I suspect he knows this and will concentrate on clay

Of course he will be a danger, but so is Tsonga - away from the dirt, Murray and Djokovic have seperated themselves from the rest and I think we should be honest about that

Hard Court is Murray's favoured surface yet Nadal leads the H2H.

So on Nadal weakest surface he's more than a match for Murray.

On grass, their second favourite surface, Nadal had Murray in his pocket.

On clay we'll leave that one...

Your point?? You do realise that Rafael Nadal will go down in tennis history as one of THE greatest players of all-time so I don't see how those figures discredit Andy in anyway.

In New York Novak played most of his semi the day before the final. Result: Murray outlasted Novak to win.

In Australia Novak had a breeze in the semi and Murray had a gruelling 5 setter against Roger. Result: Novak outlasted Murray to win.

The semis do have an impact with these two. Admittedly, Murray's match was hardly a breeze but it will definitely had less impact. A days rest may negate the impact, we'll have to see. But Novak's match looked pretty gruelling to me.

Murray - Nadal HC H2H 6-6

banbrotam wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:Back to Rafa vs Murray on hard

Overall: Rafa 6-5 Murray
2007: 2-0
2008: 1-1
2009: 1-1
2010: 1-2
2011: 1-1

Not played since 2011.

With matches being evenly shared and Murray arguably now an improved player yes he could be the favourite but I think they owe us a tremendous, tight match.

Notice that since Murray became a 'player' he leads the head to head.

For me, during the next year or so, I'm far more worried about him facing Raonic, JJ, Del Potro or Bedych than Fedal.

Times are a changing

Don't see it personally. You'd still give Murray on hard court only a 60% chance to beat Federer or Nadal while he might have a 75% chance to beat JJ or Raonic. Berdych and Del Potro somewhere inn between. Raonic hasn't done much for a while. Times are not changing that much.

JuliusHMarx wrote:Murray - Nadal HC H2H 6-6

Think it's 6-5 to Rafa unless you count a walkover, but can be checked here.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=MC10

Henman Bill wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Murray - Nadal HC H2H 6-6

Think it's 6-5 to Rafa unless you count a walkover, but can be checked here.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=MC10

6-6, because it wasn't a walkover, it was a retirement.

Gerry SA wrote:[

Hard Court is Murray's favoured surface yet Nadal leads the H2H.

So on Nadal weakest surface he's more than a match for Murray.

On grass, their second favourite surface, Nadal had Murray in his pocket.

On clay we'll leave that one...[/quote]


Well you can do owt with stats

If you want to include 2007 stats when Nadal was oceans better than Murray then you are correct

If you want to ignore Murray's improvement since the US11' then fire away

If you want to still think Nadal has Murray's number after the last year they've both had, then I want some of what you've been smoking  

It's lazy to look at stats without looking at current form

I'm consitent on this. I stated that despite the H2H that Del Boy would beat Murray at IW and despite Murray still having a good record against him, I didn't want him reaching Sunday's final

It's about momentum. Away from clay, Nadal's barely got any after this latest defeat

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:Murray has justified his no 2 ranking ahead of Nadal now with 3 out of the last 4 slam finals. But I will add he hasn't achieved it by actually beating Nadal, since the two have really avoided each other for the most part in recent times. That's an overdue match on the tour. So it's still all to play for and for me if you asked me who is more likely to finish in the top 2 say one year from now (i.e. resetting the points from now to zero) if all players are fully fit and motivated it's not clear to me if you would go with Murray or Rafa

Not certain how Rafa can be seen as a threat to Murray at the remaining hard courts. He's fair game now away for clay, I'd maintain that Verdasco (if he'd forgotten who he was playing) and JJ would both have beaten him. Let's face it, he no longer has the knees to face hard hitters away from clay

Even if he gets that far I fail to see how a more aggessive Murray (who incidentally beat him last time they met) can be second best against a player who isn't as good on hard courts as he was in 2011

I'd relish seeing it to be honest -  but we can't keep bigging Nadal up if he can't get past players he should be beating

Nadal won Indian Wells 1000 on HC this year so he's hardly 'fair game away from clay'

Indian Wells was a full field to boot, so not a gimme title.

Nadal's still got Murray covered.  

Look I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Anyone would think that Nadal owned Murray on hard courts, rather than the 2-2 Slam head to head they have on this surface and share (I think) 4-4 overall since 2008

I also think the IW win, great that is was, was played on the slower of the hard courts. It's no coincidence that he's won this before. Do people really think that if its hot in New York that Rafa is one of the favourites

It's great respecting someone, but let's deal in realities. And the reality is that out of his 13 wins, 12 have been on clay. Another reality is that there are far too many potential bombs for Rafa now, even before reaching the latter stages of a hard court

Imagine an 'on' JJ, Raonic or Berdych against him

In fairness I suspect he knows this and will concentrate on clay

Of course he will be a danger, but so is Tsonga - away from the dirt, Murray and Djokovic have seperated themselves from the rest and I think we should be honest about that

Hard Court is Murray's favoured surface yet Nadal leads the H2H.

So on Nadal weakest surface he's more than a match for Murray.

On grass, their second favourite surface, Nadal had Murray in his pocket.

On clay we'll leave that one...

Your point?? You do realise that Rafael Nadal will go down in tennis history as one of THE greatest players of all-time so I don't see how those figures discredit Andy in anyway.

I know perfectly well Nadal's standing in the game...heck he pummelled my hero Federer many a time...

Nadal isn't the greatest HC player, it's a fact.

It's Murray's best surface but he still can't get the better of Nadal.

Henman Bill wrote:Banbro, look http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=MC10
at the head to head on the ATP. There is not much evidence that faster hard favours Murray, with Nadal having wins at the slightly faster US Open and World Tour finnals and Murray's wins including Australian OIpen and Toronto which are a little slower I think. To be honest most of the ahrd court tournaments play at about the same sort of speed anyway.

the better argument for me is that the history is from 2011 and before, and Murray has a better serve, forehand and mental strength that he did throughout that entire history.

7


Nadal was impressive on the medium hard courts (I think Toronto due to the heat is seen as one of the fastest or is it Cincy?). My point is that Murray had moved up a notch - and I don't think Nadal was

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Murray - Nadal HC H2H 6-6

Think it's 6-5 to Rafa unless you count a walkover, but can be checked here.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=MC10

6-6, because it wasn't a walkover, it was a retirement.

We are talking about Miami 2012, right? Rafa withdrew before the match.

banbrotam wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:[

Hard Court is Murray's favoured surface yet Nadal leads the H2H.

So on Nadal weakest surface he's more than a match for Murray.

On grass, their second favourite surface, Nadal had Murray in his pocket.

On clay we'll leave that one...

Well you can do owt with stats

If you want to include 2007 stats when Nadal was oceans better than Murray then you are correct

If you want to ignore Murray's improvement since the US11' then fire away

If you want to still think Nadal has Murray's number after the last year they've both had, then I want some of what you've been smoking  

It's lazy to look at stats without looking at current form

I'm consitent on this. I stated that despite the H2H that Del Boy would beat Murray at IW and despite Murray still having a good record against him, I didn't want him reaching Sunday's final

It's about momentum. Away from clay, Nadal's barely got any after this latest defeat[/quote]
I'm pretty sure come Canada, when Nadal's rumoured to next play, he'll be thinking I won last time out on HC in IW

Not I lost at Wimbledon.

That's plenty momentum if you ask me...

lydian wrote:Not Murray's fault in facing these guys but what a dream route to a slam final on grass...unbelievable really.

I see what your saying Lydian and don't disagree with it. He has beaten the guys he has come up against but it's not been the cakewalk people were predicting when Federer and Nadal lost and Tsonga and Cilic pulled out injured. I think that put more pressure on him as people were saying he is in the final before he had played his third round match. No credit for getting there but plently criticism if he hadn't. As I said earlier in the thread I didn't think he had played that well to get to the semi especially against Verdasco. I was actually quite pleased with the way he played tonight. He wasn't playing defensive tennis. It wasn't 'lights out' tennis but he stuck to the task especially when behind in set 3 and upped his game enough to put the doubts into JJ's mind.
One interesting point is that after being 2 sets down against Verdasco I think he has only lost his serve once in the next seven sets (correct me if I'm wrong). I thought his second serve was good tonight and didn't give JJ too many chances to blitz it. May be different on Sunday with Djokovic though. So he has to keep that 1st Serve % up .

Least Murray played miles better than he did against Verdasco!

Up and onwards to Sunday.

Djokovic really looks confident and to me unbeatable.

Gerry SA wrote:[I know perfectly well Nadal's standing in the game...heck he pummelled my hero Federer many a time...

Nadal isn't the greatest HC player, it's a fact.

It's Murray's best surface but he still can't get the better of Nadal.

So basically you're saying that if Murray and Nadal never met again on a HC, even if Murray say won 5 Hard court slams - he's still be inferior to Nadal because of their head to head before Murray had reached his peak

In other words current play doesn't matter - it's all about 2007 - 2011

Gerry SA wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:Murray has justified his no 2 ranking ahead of Nadal now with 3 out of the last 4 slam finals. But I will add he hasn't achieved it by actually beating Nadal, since the two have really avoided each other for the most part in recent times. That's an overdue match on the tour. So it's still all to play for and for me if you asked me who is more likely to finish in the top 2 say one year from now (i.e. resetting the points from now to zero) if all players are fully fit and motivated it's not clear to me if you would go with Murray or Rafa

Not certain how Rafa can be seen as a threat to Murray at the remaining hard courts. He's fair game now away for clay, I'd maintain that Verdasco (if he'd forgotten who he was playing) and JJ would both have beaten him. Let's face it, he no longer has the knees to face hard hitters away from clay

Even if he gets that far I fail to see how a more aggessive Murray (who incidentally beat him last time they met) can be second best against a player who isn't as good on hard courts as he was in 2011

I'd relish seeing it to be honest -  but we can't keep bigging Nadal up if he can't get past players he should be beating

Nadal won Indian Wells 1000 on HC this year so he's hardly 'fair game away from clay'

Indian Wells was a full field to boot, so not a gimme title.

Nadal's still got Murray covered.  

Look I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Anyone would think that Nadal owned Murray on hard courts, rather than the 2-2 Slam head to head they have on this surface and share (I think) 4-4 overall since 2008

I also think the IW win, great that is was, was played on the slower of the hard courts. It's no coincidence that he's won this before. Do people really think that if its hot in New York that Rafa is one of the favourites

It's great respecting someone, but let's deal in realities. And the reality is that out of his 13 wins, 12 have been on clay. Another reality is that there are far too many potential bombs for Rafa now, even before reaching the latter stages of a hard court

Imagine an 'on' JJ, Raonic or Berdych against him

In fairness I suspect he knows this and will concentrate on clay

Of course he will be a danger, but so is Tsonga - away from the dirt, Murray and Djokovic have seperated themselves from the rest and I think we should be honest about that

Hard Court is Murray's favoured surface yet Nadal leads the H2H.

So on Nadal weakest surface he's more than a match for Murray.

On grass, their second favourite surface, Nadal had Murray in his pocket.

On clay we'll leave that one...

Your point?? You do realise that Rafael Nadal will go down in tennis history as one of THE greatest players of all-time so I don't see how those figures discredit Andy in anyway.

I know perfectly well Nadal's standing in the game...heck he pummelled my hero Federer many a time...

Nadal isn't the greatest HC player, it's a fact.

It's Murray's best surface but he still can't get the better of Nadal.

As banbrotam points out you are conveniently using stats from prior to Andy's improvements and Lendl becoming his coach. If you cannot see the improvements in Andy's game since January 2012 then I find that hard to believe. Since then much has changed with Andy so Andy V Rafa matches I'd say are now pretty much a blank canvas. I can't wait until they meet in their next match.

legendkillarV2 wrote:Djokovic really looks confident and to me unbeatable.

Really? I thought he dallied around a lot today. He had chances to make that match shorter and often made daft errors - a bit like Murray against Verdasco (but of course DP is a lot better!!)

I also thought he was doing a lot of gasping for air

I'd agree with you before the Berdych match - but as I said earlier I think this is a better chance for Andy than actualy against Del Potro. This is due to the less pressure and likely conditiosn

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lets remember he dispatched Youznhy in straight sets a couple of weeks after the same player had stretched grass master Federer to three sets in Halle in the final. Also he out-served the greatest server at this Wimbledon in Janowicz so there have been potentially tough matches there.

Oh ffs, I thought if there was one thing we learned this Wimbledon it was that 2013 Federer is not the guy who won 17 Slams.

banbrotam wrote:

legendkillarV2 wrote:Djokovic really looks confident and to me unbeatable.

Really? I thought he dallied around a lot today. He had chances to make that match shorter and often made daft errors - a bit like Murray against Verdasco (but of course DP is a lot better!!)

I also thought he was doing a lot of gasping for air

I'd agree with you before the Berdych match - but as I said earlier I think this is a better chance for Andy than actualy against Del Potro. This is due to the less pressure and likely conditiosn

He does. Even when his back is against the wall he can still muster the big points.

If Andy can play like he did today and hit through the FH he could run Nole the distance.

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Gerry SA wrote:

banbrotam wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:Murray has justified his no 2 ranking ahead of Nadal now with 3 out of the last 4 slam finals. But I will add he hasn't achieved it by actually beating Nadal, since the two have really avoided each other for the most part in recent times. That's an overdue match on the tour. So it's still all to play for and for me if you asked me who is more likely to finish in the top 2 say one year from now (i.e. resetting the points from now to zero) if all players are fully fit and motivated it's not clear to me if you would go with Murray or Rafa

Not certain how Rafa can be seen as a threat to Murray at the remaining hard courts. He's fair game now away for clay, I'd maintain that Verdasco (if he'd forgotten who he was playing) and JJ would both have beaten him. Let's face it, he no longer has the knees to face hard hitters away from clay

Even if he gets that far I fail to see how a more aggessive Murray (who incidentally beat him last time they met) can be second best against a player who isn't as good on hard courts as he was in 2011

I'd relish seeing it to be honest -  but we can't keep bigging Nadal up if he can't get past players he should be beating

Nadal won Indian Wells 1000 on HC this year so he's hardly 'fair game away from clay'

Indian Wells was a full field to boot, so not a gimme title.

Nadal's still got Murray covered.  

Look I'm sorry, but I don't buy it. Anyone would think that Nadal owned Murray on hard courts, rather than the 2-2 Slam head to head they have on this surface and share (I think) 4-4 overall since 2008

I also think the IW win, great that is was, was played on the slower of the hard courts. It's no coincidence that he's won this before. Do people really think that if its hot in New York that Rafa is one of the favourites

It's great respecting someone, but let's deal in realities. And the reality is that out of his 13 wins, 12 have been on clay. Another reality is that there are far too many potential bombs for Rafa now, even before reaching the latter stages of a hard court

Imagine an 'on' JJ, Raonic or Berdych against him

In fairness I suspect he knows this and will concentrate on clay

Of course he will be a danger, but so is Tsonga - away from the dirt, Murray and Djokovic have seperated themselves from the rest and I think we should be honest about that

Hard Court is Murray's favoured surface yet Nadal leads the H2H.

So on Nadal weakest surface he's more than a match for Murray.

On grass, their second favourite surface, Nadal had Murray in his pocket.

On clay we'll leave that one...

Your point?? You do realise that Rafael Nadal will go down in tennis history as one of THE greatest players of all-time so I don't see how those figures discredit Andy in anyway.

I know perfectly well Nadal's standing in the game...heck he pummelled my hero Federer many a time...

Nadal isn't the greatest HC player, it's a fact.

It's Murray's best surface but he still can't get the better of Nadal.

As banbrotam points out you are conveniently using stats from prior to Andy's improvements and Lendl becoming his coach. If you cannot see the improvements in Andy's game since January 2012 then I find that hard to believe. Since then much has changed with Andy so Andy V Rafa matches I'd say are now pretty much a blank canvas. I can't wait until they meet in their next match.

Murray perceived improve is the forehand

It's hardly earth shattering.

Nadal's main tactic is to hit to anyone's backhand....

Henman Bill wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:

Henman Bill wrote:

JuliusHMarx wrote:Murray - Nadal HC H2H 6-6

Think it's 6-5 to Rafa unless you count a walkover, but can be checked here.
http://www.atpworldtour.com/Players/Head-To-Head.aspx?pId=N409&oId=MC10

6-6, because it wasn't a walkover, it was a retirement.

We are talking about Miami 2012, right? Rafa withdrew before the match.

Oh, that Miami - yeah fair enough

Wimbledon record Djokovic v Murray

Murray outperformed Djokovic 3 times in 2008 (QF v R2), 2009 (SF v QF) and 2012 (F v SF) while Djokovic only outperformed Murray once in 2011 (W vs SF).

In 2010 they both made the semi, Djokovic also made a semi in 2007. So depends how you look at it.

But whoever wins Sunday wins this debate for me, at least for now. The stats would go clearly in favour of the winner.

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lets remember he dispatched Youznhy in straight sets a couple of weeks after the same player had stretched grass master Federer to three sets in Halle in the final. Also he out-served the greatest server at this Wimbledon in Janowicz so there have been potentially tough matches there.

Oh ffs, I thought if there was one thing we learned this Wimbledon it was that 2013 Federer is not the guy who won 17 Slams.

Then again BB, Youzny's playing some of his best stuff in a while - so neither scenario can be discounted

On Rafa vs Murray let's not forget that going into Wimbledon the year to date points are:

Rafa 7,000
Djokovic 5,030
Murray 3,160.

(do not include Wimbledon points).

At the moment Rafa looks favourite for year end no 2 and certainly for top 2 after the Australian Open. IF fit of course.

Guys, enough with using the quote button.

banbrotam wrote:

bogbrush wrote:

CaledonianCraig wrote:Lets remember he dispatched Youznhy in straight sets a couple of weeks after the same player had stretched grass master Federer to three sets in Halle in the final. Also he out-served the greatest server at this Wimbledon in Janowicz so there have been potentially tough matches there.

Oh ffs, I thought if there was one thing we learned this Wimbledon it was that 2013 Federer is not the guy who won 17 Slams.

Then again BB, Youzny's playing some of his best stuff in a while - so neither scenario can be discounted

Federer did look good at Halle and you yourself said he played well at Wimbledon in R1. But in R2 he got punished in an off day. At RG9, W12 he also had off days in the early rounds which he escaped from before winning the title. So the margins can be slight.

That being said, so far his 2013 looks like his weakest year since 2003. AO, FO and some other tournaments were a disappointment.

It does seem like a (the?) decline year. Look at all these Murray/Novak/Rafa discussion raging on in this very thread. Roger not in the discussion anymore. Then again, you never know what can happen in sport. He is still more than a dangerous floater and could yet win the US Open or the World Tour finals this year, you never know.

Gerry SA wrote:[Murray perceived improve is the forehand

It's hardly earth shattering

Are you the Friday night entertainment? It's "earth shattering" enough to deliver an Olympic title and a US Open

Gerry SA wrote:Nadal's main tactic is to hit to anyone's backhand....

Which is Andy's strength. Where exactly are you going with this?  

bogbrush wrote:Guys, enough with using the quote button.

Don't see any issue with it but I think when you're quoting a large quote you should edit it and show the important point, we don't need to see a whole page of the last 10 comments quoted just so someone can add a one liner.

Henman Bill wrote:On Rafa vs Murray let's not forget that going into Wimbledon the year to date points are:

Rafa 7,000
Djokovic 5,030
Murray 3,160.

(do not include Wimbledon points).

At the moment Rafa looks favourite for year end no 2 and certainly for top 2 after the Australian Open. IF fit of course.

I'd wager - that even if fit it won't happen

I bet you that Rafa will be ranked higher than Murray after the Australian Open. Do you accept this challenge?

I think it depends on Sunday. If Murray wins, I wouldn't put it past him to outscore Nadal by 2000pts through North America, Asia, European indoor. If Murray loses, I'd be very skeptical about him closing a 3000pt gap. Of course, a lot depends of Nadal's fitness and ability off clay, and Wimbledon did nothing to answer those questions, indeed it probably provided more questions.