India in Zimbabwe and India A in South Africa 2013

First topic message reminder :

There is yet some time for this series to take off, but just starting a thread well in advance. This certainly is not the most anticipated series this summer, neither is it a high profile series for that matter.
Yet there are a couple of things that make it an interesting one. Zimbabwe made a successful return to fullfledged return to international cricket in 2011, and have showed some good signes since, although the output hasn't been consistent. Unfortunately, this series does not include any test matches. But there are 5 ODIs, and the young Zimbabwe outfit would benefit from as much international exposure as possible. The other important thing is that it is India who are touring, meaning that Zc would get some much needed additional revenue.
The other thing is the Indian team itself. They have rested some senior players including skipper Mahendra Singh Dhoni and offspinner Ravichandran Ashwin. Seamers Umesh Yadav, Bhuvneshwar Kumar and Ishant Sharma are also rested. exciting youngster, J&K's offspinning all-rounder Parwez Rasool is given an opportunity. Haryana seamer Mohit Sharma has also found a place in the side. Cheteshwar Pujara is back in the ODI mix, and this time he should make his debut in all likelihood. Ajinkya Rahane is also back. Virat Kohli will be leading the side.
India squad: Virat Kohli (capt.), Shikhar Dhawan, Rohit Sharma, Dinesh Karthik, Cheteshwar Pujara, Suresh Raina, Ambati Rayudu, Ajinkya Rahane, Ravindra
Jadeja, Amit Mishra, Parvez Rasool, Shami Ahmed, R Vinay Kumar, Jaydev Unadkat, Mohit Sharma.

India enforce follow-on.

and Pandey + shami have plucked out 3 quick wickets........both bowl at 85mph....from the you tube videos I have seen of them.

so far India has out-batted and out bowled both in seam and spin a strong SA-A side.

Raina has bowled a lot on this tour and with success in 50over and 4 day game. I can see that they are trying to turn Raina into an batting allrounder....who would give extra spinning option.

and it's a reality that in India  unless the spinner is really a top-class mystery spinner like Bhajji was at his peak or Kumble or ashwin now........rest like Rasool, Ojha, Nadeem, Jalaj, Dharekar types are all replacebale by batsmen who can bowl good spin such as Jadeja, Yuvraj and now we see Raina is setpping up.

If on the show of IPL they wanted to pick a spinner....the young leggie from haryana Karan was the man to be picked

I always felt Sehwag had similar potential if he took his bolwing seriously...and reinvented himself as a middle roder batsmen who could bowl.

Sami ahmed, Pandey, Mohit, Udakat, Vinay kumar have all done well in the seamers slot for the chances given to them.

Sandeep sharma, Uniyal, Kulkarni from Punjab are knocking at the doors....and at some point Varun aaron might be back.
and I see BUmrah who did so well in IPL has grabbed his chance with both hands in U23 games....sandeep warrier is on the far horizon

suddenly Srresanth, Munaf, RP singh , Praveen, Sudip Tyagi...generation is not being missed.

Zaheer can still make a diffrence and with so many options it should not be a free ride for Ishant as it has been in the past

India wins in 3 days.
Pandey is my MoM...for plucking 7 wickets out on what seemed like a flat pitch.

although Raina runs close with his hundred and 4 wkts.

a very heartening show for India

Good showing from the Indian boys.
KPF, there are a few decent seamers emerging. But I am not sure about the likes of Jasprit Bhumra. Pandey does look a real good one and he has had a couple of good domestic seasons. Shami too looks a lot better than his Bengal teammate Ashok Dinda. Unadkat is young and has the time to develop. But I don't see any of them as specially gifted. Praveen Kumar could swing it round corners with good control, Bhuvneshwar Kumar too is a master of swing. Zaheer when he first emerged, looked quited gifted, and he added a lot more during the course of his career. But none of these young seamers, barring young Sandeep Sharma, is demanding that much attention. Some of them might develop into special players, but I think we have to give them time.

msp....

--Shami ahmed is the most complete package of the lot....swing, good pace and experience...he will succeed the moment he gets in.

--Pandey has all the above minus the experience...and control on swing.

--Mohit sharma is a younger inexperienced version of Siddle......and will grow from here

--Sandeep is probably another Praveen and Bhuvnesh mould.

not execpetional these guys....but defnitely international quality and a good supply line.

they make us feel assured and optimistic....more so now than any other point in the past.

If Steve Finn is an exceptional talent, I'm sure we have plenty.

Shami Ahmed will be a good test bowler, Mohit maybe more limited overs IMO.

CF wrote:Shami Ahmed will be a good test bowler, Mohit maybe more limited overs IMO.

Mohit sharma has a huge development curve ahead of him.
He has a good core in the form of decent speed ( 135-140kph), good outswinger from a length.

on top of that he has to develop variations....like an inswinger, cutters, reverse bouncers, yorkers and figure out how to use the mix intelligently.

and when he does some of the above he will be like Siddle

ShankyCricket wrote:If Steve Finn is an exceptional talent, I'm sure we have plenty.

Good joke Shanky!.

Not really joking, msp.

Leave Zaheer Khan apart. I don't think there is any quick bowler as good as Finn at the moment in India. Bhuvneshwar Kumar and Umesh Yadav are well talented and have their own strengths. But even they aren't at Finn's level as yet. Mr Potential Sharma too is not half as good as Finn.

Bhuvneshwar Kumar is better for sure. Unlike Finn, he swings the ball both ways and has got control too.
Finn's test record is built on the back of beating up the Bangla boys and a very poor Pak side in 2010. Hugely overrated!

ShankyCricket wrote:Bhuvneshwar Kumar is better for sure. Unlike Finn, he swings the ball both ways and has got control too.
Finn's test record is built on the back of beating up the Bangla boys and a very poor Pak side in 2010. Hugely overrated!

Bhuvi certainly is a good bowler. But at this point, he's a limited bowler as well. He's capable of being a very sharp new ball bowler, but his old ball skills aren't quite developed at this stage. Finn was better than Anderson during the South Africa series last year. He didn't play much cricket during England's series win in India, but he made an impact when he played. And he was England's best ODI bowler along with Graeme Swann for most of the last couple of years.

What do you mean by "Finn's level", msp? Most of his test wickets have been by way of batsmen throwing their wickets away and lots of tailenders (Brisbane 2010 and Auckland 2013 are two such examples. He got six wickets in the 1st innings in each of these 2 tests but they came after the opposition had already racked up a big score and were searching for some quick runs).

He's a fantastic ODI bowler, no doubt. Just don't understand this hype over him being a "matchwinner" in tests. When has he ever done that in a test other than against B'desh?

Bhuvi can certainly bowl with the old ball, from what I've seen on the domestic circuit. Not his fault MSD hasn't given him enough overs with the old ball for India.

And he has got control.

Shanky, Finn is a wickettaker even when he goes for a few runs. In the 2 situations you mentioned, the lack of effectiveness from the other bowlers can't be Finn's fault can it be? As I said, he's more of an impact bowler, who can produce a quick burst of wickets, not necessarily 5 and 6, but 2 or 3 quick wickets, like he did against South Africa last year, like he did in India, like he did during the recent New Zealand series.

While I agree Bhuvneshwar usually bowls with good control, it is interesting to note that Finn currently has a better economy rate in test cricket.

yeah..agree with msp
Finn is very good strike bowler..he will pick wickets in all condtions...with his 95mph pace.
 
Eng are foolish to not have him as their secxond automatic selection after Anderson.
 
In India Yadav is fully fit can ht 150kph and is our first pick bowler...I would put him at par with Finn..
B. Kumar has a long way to go.....he is pretty innocuôus as msp has noted...with the old ball...and while his fastest deliveries do hit 85mph...in his later spells his pace drops to 80mph.
 
He is still India's 2nd automatic pick as the seamer, but I do agree that there is a lot that he can improve..especially .fitenss so that he can bowl in mid 80s all day.
Then he will be able to do more with the old ball also

tomm the 2nd test starts with SA-A and it's on the flat pretoria pitch.

India would play Rasool I hope

And hopefully Rayudu as well.

Don't get me wrong, Finn does have potential. Just that I don't understand all the hype over him being a "matchwinner" in tests (he is, in ODIs, for sure). As I said, you need to put his test figures into perspective. His two best bowling figures in test cricket have both come after the opposition had already posted a huge total. He has also bullied sides like Pak and BD. How come a matchwinner goes for over 4 runs an over even when he has wickets to his name? Maybe something to do with wickets coming against the run of play with the batsmen in an over-attacking mode? I've watched Finn bowl a lot in tests and barring the Kolkata test and the 2nd innings vs SA at Lord's last summer, he has scarcely ever shown consistency. There's a good reason why he was dropped during the 10/11 Ashes despite being the leading wicket taker at that point. He takes cheap tail end wickets that boost his figures but often for the best part of the innings, bowls far too many boundary balls and releases all the pressure created by the other bowlers, which in turn, reduces their effectiveness as the batsmen know they can just see them off and score runs off Finn. Bowling is about bowling in tandem and I can't help but feel that more often than not, Finn doesn't do the bowler bowling at the other end any favours. People look at the final figures though and say he was the best bowler and that others should've done more. The Brisbane test of 2010 epitomises this as anyone, who looked at the scorecard without watching the match would be tempted to think that Finn was England's best bowler when it was quite clearly the opposite. It was Finn's pressure releasing stuff from the other end that rendered Anderson's exceptional spell rather fruitless as the batsmen were happy enough to see him off.

Again, this "wicket taker" tag is based on pure figures and doesn't take into account the context and the match situation when those wickets were taken.

How many times has Finn played a pivotal role in winning a test for England?

msp83 wrote:And hopefully Rayudu as well.

they should play him as a WK

Finn has to be compared with the likes of Woakes and Bresnan and not exactly Anderson and Broad, as those to are England's first choice seamers. Bresnan is nothing more than a good first reserve in comparison to Finn who is a wicket taker. On tracks that do not offer much to the seamers, Bresnan doesn't offer much while Finn's pace could come in handy. By the way did you watch the England-New Zealand series just before the Ashes? And when the batsman wants to take Bresnan on, more often than not they succeed in any format of the game.

I'm not comparing him with Broad and Anderson as such. I'm not saying he has to be as good as them. The point was that he's not necessarily a good foil for them as he releases the pressures they've created far too often, whereas Bresnan, even though a "wicket taker" in absolute terms, does a good job to back up the new ball bowlers and bowls well in partnerships with other bowlers. Its what you call "hunting in pairs".

Not sure why you've brought Woakes into this. He's basically playing as a batting allrounder as his number 6 slot in the batting order would seem to suggest. Having said that, he has still done a better job than what Finn did at Trent Bridge.

I would say Finn's twin strikes wre more important than anything Woakes managed so far in this game in shifting the momentum of the game towards after a pretty poor batting effort in the first innings. Finn certainly lost his way after that, but even in the midst of that lies hidden the kind of value he can add to England bowling.

Has Finn ever bowled as well against the top sides as Bres did in the 10/11 Ashes and the home test series against us in 2011?

Finn hasn't really got a sustained opportunity has he? I would say he has comfortably outbowled Bresnan in the South Africa series and the India away win last year.

He did get an opportunity in the 10/11 Ashes.

Think its fairly obvious Bres wasn't fully fit last year.

CA Pujara*, M Vijay, KD Karthik, AT Rayudu, AM Rahane, STR Binny, WP Saha†, S Kaul, S Nadeem, IC Pandey, Parvez Rasool
 
Raina and Dhawan rested.
Good to see Rayadu , Kaul, Binny and Rasool with a game

Ishant was talking to ht media yeterday...emphasizing that he is working ion his fitness and strnegth.

Umesh is talking today about his priority to bowl fast.

and Zaheer is reminding all thet he is fighting to be fully fit and prove himsefl in the Ranji season.

Aswi talked about developing his variations.

I think seeing the success of seamers and Mishra...the regular in the India team are reminding the media..about their presence.

competition is good and keeps everyone on their toes.


meanwhile Indian seamers have plucked out top 3 of SA for nothing...pandey's 2 victims came to good bowling
AND
KJaul's to a bad shot

Ind had them on the rope....at 6 down for less than a 100
and then the 7th wicket has added 134 so far...Pandey and Rasool 2 each

looks like the pitch si good top order just gave it away

The South Africa A top order failed to deal with the India A bowling on what was considered not so much of a difficult track to bat as they slumped to 97 for 6. But then bowling all-rounders Wayne Parnell and Simon Harmer scored unbeaten 50s to engineer a late recover. SA A ended the day on 231-6 with Parnell on 64 and Harmer on 68. All the Indian bowlers bowled well, Pandey yet again among with the wickets, picking up a couple early in the innings. Parwez Rasool also picked up a couple, and Siddharth Kaul and Shahbaz Nadeem 1 each.

Ishwar Pandey, before this game, has picked up 93 first class wickets from 20 matches at an average of 23. Some good early domestic season can be the basis of a strong case for a national call up.

after a long partnership for the 7th wicket...Nadeem provides a double breakthrouhg.

we don't known how good or bad th wicket is until India also bats

Ind U23 lift the asia cup.......KL Rahul has been the standout batsman for India and Sandeep sharma renforced his credentials as a top quality reserve swing bowler

Rahane blew up his chance....as did Binny.
Rahane is proving to be a badri......flounders on key moments.

Great oportunity for Rasool to shine with the bat.
team in a crisis....not a very difficult pitch...plenty of time to build a long inning...already picked 2 wickets....

If he can get a hundred here......he will be in contention for an India slot immediately.

Ind chasing 307 lose Vijay early again........and need 30odd on last day.

seems ball is turning and scoring runs not that easy.

winning may be difficult...it will test the charcaters of test-aspirants like Rahane to bat out the day tomm

Ind-A lose to SA A and the series finishes 1-1

first 5 went for 18 runs
and then the last 5 fell within 7 runs.....with only a Saha/ Rahane partnership standing in between.

these are not good signs...such collapses in both innings....shows complete lack of application and not taking the game seriously


there are plenty of losers from this game:

1) rahane...blew up in 1st inning and his 80odd wasn't big enough in the second....he needed to get a big 150 n.o and see India safely to a draw

2) Binny......I had huge hopes from him...badly flopped two times. These chances to impress in India-A games dont come easily..there is nair, yadav, KL rahul standing in the queue

3) Rasool.......didn't do enouhg to stand out as an international potential with the ball or bat

Rasool did take 3 wickets in the match and kept the runs under control, and scored an unbeaten 32 in the first innings, running out of partners. Not a good game, but not a disaster either. Poor effort from the batsmen though, Vijay couldn't put up a score, and Rayudu and Karthik also failed in both outings.
Pujara was again in the runs in the first innings after his ton in the first game. Rahane got a start in the first innings and then top scored in the 2nd innings, and Saha also scored a few runs in the 2nd innings.
Ishwar Pandey was impressive with the ball in both innings, and Nadeem too had an OK game. Poor result in the end and a poor end to the tour, but there are reasons to hope as well.

msp83 wrote:Rasool did take 3 wickets in the match and kept the runs under control, and scored an unbeaten 32 in the first innings, running out of partners. Not a good game, but not a disaster either.

when you are from a zone in FC cricket that doesn not get much exposure...and you have a rare opportunity....you've gotta grab it with boith hands to make your self standout.

his 0 and 30 runs and 3 wickets do not make him stand out as a special talent.

He needed to get big 70s in both innings........or a hundred in one of the innings.....and also 7fer to stand out in the eyes of everyone.

Rasool has had a couple of stand out games for India A already. So he's pretty much in the frame. He would need to produce more such performances during the domestic season to keep himself firmly in the mind of the selectors.

msp83 wrote:Rasool has had a couple of stand out games for India A already. So he's pretty much in the frame. He would need to produce more such performances during the domestic season to keep himself firmly in the mind of the selectors.

which stand out games ? has he had
May be I missed

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Rasool has had a couple of stand out games for India A already. So he's pretty much in the frame. He would need to produce more such performances during the domestic season to keep himself firmly in the mind of the selectors.

which stand out games ? has he had
May be I missed

Had quite a standout game against Australia early this year, wherein he picked up a 7 wicket haul. Had a decent outing against England in a list A game as well.

msp83 wrote:

KP_fan wrote:

msp83 wrote:Rasool has had a couple of stand out games for India A already. So he's pretty much in the frame. He would need to produce more such performances during the domestic season to keep himself firmly in the mind of the selectors.

which stand out games ? has he had
May be I missed

Had quite a standout game against Australia early this year, wherein he picked up a 7 wicket haul. Had a decent outing against England  in a list A game as well.

yeah OK...i remember those games now.

It is rare the day our game vs. SA-A finished another test match vs. NZ-A started........unfortunately first day was washed out.
Now Jalaj Saxena is running through NZ-A. He competes for the same slot as Rasool and both are stand-bys to Jadeja.

I am pleased to see that we have the depth to put two squads of 15 each....and eitehr can beat the otehr on a given day

Luke Ronchi is smashin it around staging NZ's recovery....to 310 with a century.

Jalaj Saxena shows that it was a mistaketo forget him in between for sometime......takes a 6-fer and reminds all that he is now ready for an ODI berth....given that he has performed at almost every A level opportunity

It's disappointing that these A tests are only 3 days........too little time even without rain.
4 day is the minimum required.

Chawla gets a hundred...coming at No.9 for MiddleSex...when we don't really care much for him.

Gambhir that we want to get runs and back in form.....gets 20s, 30s and couple of single digit scores

Well let Chawla get some wickets and challnage Rasool, Jalaj etal for that spinning all-rounder's slot

Gambhir had a duck in the ongoing game didn't he? Gauti needs big runs, not 30s and 40s, he was getting a few of those in the last couple of years, but it has been the big knocks that have been missing. In his case, 30s and 40s and even 50s shouldn't even be considered by the selectors. He's a player better than those wasted chances and he has to be at his best to play for India and for that he has to be focused on his game, and the intense Gambhir is what we want back, not the classic waster of starts that he has become in the last couple of years.