England's next EPS due soon.

Well it has been a good Summer for the development of the England team as 2015 comes ever quicker into sight. Twelve players with RWC aspirations (ie not Matt Stevens) featured for the Lions. Most of those will have seen their game improve - possibly none more than Owen Farrell. Training day in, day out with such good players for so long has to help.

The remaining players delivered everything we could have asked for in Argentina, whilst the juniors managed to win the JWC. We are truly starting to look as if there is competition for every place.

On July 5th 2012, Stuart Lancaster named last season's squad. He will shortly name this seasons. Most of the 33 players are probably fairly predictable, yet even so it should have a rather exciting look to it.

I suspect the squad will look something like:

Props (5): Cole, Corbisiero, Marler, Vunipola, Wilson
Hookers (3): Hartley, Webber, Youngs
Second Row (4): Attwood, Launchbury, Lawes, Parling
Back Row (6): Croft, Morgan, Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola (+ 1 from Clark, Haskell & Kvesic)

Half-Backs (5): Care, Farrell, Youngs (and two from Burns, Dickson & flood)
Centres (4): Barritt, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees (and one other from Eastmond, Joseph or Tomkins)
Wingers (3): Ashton, Wade, Yarde
Full Backs (3) Brown, Foden, Goode


It is possible to pick two decent teams from that, and so long as Lancaster picks specialists rather than trying to shoehorn players in, we could have a pretty decent season.

Is there room for a full back (Tait maybe)?

Surely if SL sacks Andy Farrell cost won't be a problem. If it's not cost then Hartley should go.

Somehow my sausage fingers deleted Wade, Yarde and Brown when typing.

My only gripe would be goode would rather swap him for may.Out of the others I hope kvesic flood ford and eastmond get picked.
The saxons squad should look pretty decent this year as we're starting to develop some impressive depth.

sickofwendy wrote:My only gripe would be goode would rather swap him for may.Out of the others I hope kvesic flood ford and eastmond get picked.
The saxons squad should look pretty decent this year as we're starting to develop some impressive depth.

I may well be wrong, but I cannot see Lancaster leaving Alex Goode out. I would prefer him to decide on his best two full backs and have four wingers, but he has shown a tendency to prevaricate.

Here's what I'd select rather than what I predict from Lancaster.

Prop - Corbs, Vunipola, Marler, Cole, Wilson
Hooker - Youngs, Webber
Lock - Parling, Launchberry, Attwood, Lawes
Flanker - Robshaw, Croft, Wood, Kvesic, Haskell
Number 8 - Morgan, Vunipola
Scrum half - Youngs, Care
Fly half - Farrell, Flood, Burns
Centre - Twelvetrees, Barritt, Tuilagi, Daly
Wing - Wade, Yarde, May
Full back - Brown, Foden, Tait

I expect many will question the inclusion of Daly, May and Tait over Joseph, Ashton and Goode but as the EPS is named in July I feel it should be based on performances from last season and the summer tours from which I feel this is the best squad available to us. If those guys showed good form early season I'd be more than happy to see them called up as injury replacements though.

Let's face it the size of the EPS tends to grow through the AIs and Six Nations due to players being called up as injury cover then not returning to their clubs when others are fit etc.

This might not be well received but I think goode should change position to either 10 or 12 but he would probably have to leave saracens to make it happen.
Nothing personal but I have him behind foden brown tait Armitage daly and abendanon as a full back.
His lack of pace and lack of threat while running the ball back will only stifle our play.
Im hoping Lancaster will develop the ruthless streak needed to take us to the top.

Well i dont think there'll be any major surprises to be honest. Most of the squads above are about there...just depends on a couple of Lancs choices.
 
Corbs has proved if he can stay fit he's a country Mile our best LH. And Farrell actually showed IF he can get away from Sarries ultra restricive game plan, that he could actually play.
 
Rather than name Lancs team, id like to see...
 
Props (5): Cole, Corbisiero, Marler, Vunipola, Wilson
Hookers (3): Webber, Youngs, Buchanan,
Second Row (4): Attwood, Launchbury, Kitchener, Parling
Back Row (6): Croft, Morgan, Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola,  Kvesic or Fraser
 
Half-Backs (5): Care, Farrell, Youngs, Burns & a solid passing 9.
Centres (5): Barritt, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees, Eastmond, Daly
Wingers (3): Ashton, Wade, Yarde
Full Backs (2) Brown, Foden,

NB it will be interesting to see the form of some other players though.

Garvey now at Bath
Haskell after a full summer off.
Matt Banahan
etc etc

Is there a function of the EPS?

Can someone remind me why it was set up?
And can someone tell me if it's been a success?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Is there a function of the EPS?

Can someone remind me why it was set up?
And can someone tell me if it's been a success?

 It allows the England extra time and control over an 'elite' group of players. It's fixed so at the clubs know who will be missing outside the international window.

And yes I think it's been a success. Some claim it's the reason for some conservative selection but these players are often in the next batch of EPS so not generally true.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:Is there a function of the EPS?

Can someone remind me why it was set up?
And can someone tell me if it's been a success?

Essentially, it serves to smooth over relations between the premiership clubs and the England management as I understand it. By controlling how many England can call up from the club ranks, as well as when and how long for it ensures that we don't end up like France, to put it bluntly.

It requires a bit of creativity, due to the limitiations on how many players can be added, but I think its broadly succeeded.

On the down side it keeps Rob Andrew in a job as I understand it - he designed the process and is the only one who understands its innermost secret workings.

The pea-soupers of early 50s London smogs are long gone whereas the there appears to be no concept of a Clean Air Act so far as English rugby is concerned.

The wage cap is shrouded in pea-soupers.
The marquee player is hidden in a locked and sealed box within the pea-souper.

The EPS has to be (of course) a payment to each club equally, promotion/relegation doesn't have defined process and playoffs are designed to totally eclipse the League winners.

Way too much pea soup - can't we have a consommé on the menu?

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:The pea-soupers of early 50s London smogs are long gone whereas the there appears to be no concept of a Clean Air Act so far as English rugby is concerned.

The wage cap is shrouded in pea-soupers.
The marquee player is hidden in a locked and sealed box within the pea-souper.

The EPS has to be (of course) a payment to each club equally, promotion/relegation doesn't have defined process and playoffs are designed to totally eclipse the League winners.

Way too much pea soup - can't we have a consommé on the menu?

 Sorry, didn't really follow that? Are you a hobbit? They're fond of riddles. I prefer speaking plainly myself

There is a more direct free post elsewhere HoT if you like no riddles.
About 40 years ago I read the Hobbit and saw how Gollum was cheated by a non-riddle.

 

Ok. Is the answer... An egg? If not....time....time.

Well the squad is announced this week apparently. I still expect the squad to look like the one I posted in the OP.

what do you think he will select. How does that differ from your own personal squad?

I think you're probably right.

On the marginal selections you highlighted, I think the signs are that Clark will stay in, as Lancaster seems to like him. I don't think Joseph has done enough recently to justify being selected ahead of either Tompkins or Eastmond, but mike Catt seems to like him, so that may count for something.

I just hope that, come game time, He'll give the youngsters a real chance, rather than being conservative

Id go with the following...but there would be players like Haskell who id be keen to see what his form is like...

Forwards (19):

Corbisiero, Vunipola, Marler
Youngs, Hartley, Webber
Cole, Wilson, Thomas
Launchbury, Lawes, Parling, Attwood
Wood, Croft, Robshaw, Kvesic,
Morgan, Vunipola

Backs (16)

Youngs, Care, 3rd 9...???
Farrell, Burns, Flood
Barritt, Twelvetrees, Tuilagi, Eastmond
Yarde, Wade, Ashton, May
Foden, Brown,

Can anyone shed some light on what's happened to Haskell? I know he was back for Wasps but he disappeared towards the end of the season, and wasn't even considered for the summer tour. Was it a long term injury, or just enforced rest?

I think Haskell played pretty much non stop for about 2 years due to Japan then Australia stint...so he was probably just knackered.

It'll be interesting to see how he goes...im not sure he'll get the spot back now though...maybe the saxons which is pretty much the reserve stock for the Senior team...

Thanks GF
 
That's what I thought, but it just seems like he's had so much time off.
 
To be honest, I was starting to like the look of him at 8, but he certainly won't get a chance there now with Morgan and Vunipola there. He's a good player, but not electric, so will have to do something special to regain a spot. Good bench option though.

I'd pick Haskell over Vunipola at the moment. Haskell can play across the back row so is a very useful bench option and I still view Vunipola as a long way behind Morgan in the battle for the starting 8 shirt. If Morgan picks up a knock, it's easy to move Vunipola up from the Saxons squad. Haskell also provides the benefit of having another 40+ cap player around the squad. This wouldn't normally sway me, but considering how inexperienced most of the squad is, it might be nice to have another seasoned pro in there.

Anyone who has played openside for a New Zealand team in Super Rugby (Haskell for the Highlanders) has to be a more than half decent player.  Plus he was one of the few England players to come out of the last world cup with his reputation intact.

However, he seems to be one of those players that 'fans' dislike.  Yes he has a bit of an ego with 'brand Haskell, but is it any bigger than the likes of Dallaglio, Guscott, etc?  I think it may be because when he first hit the scene he was over hyped as being a bigger/stronger/faster version of Dallaglio.  The other criticism is that he is a penalty magnet.  Over the last few years i don't think the facts back that up.

One thing that does irritate me is people trotting out the mindless drivel about Rob Andrew still being in a job/what does he do.  He negotiated an agreement between the RFU and the clubs which has enabled the England coach to control the availability of players and has minimised club v country disputes over players - contrast that to the football fiasco.  Probably no other person could have negotiated that agreement between the two sides.  As a player he played in 3 world cups.  He help drag the English game kicking and screaming into the fully professional era. As a coach won the premiership.  To borrow from the RFU site:

He continues to manage the agreement and relationship between clubs and RFU, maintaining a positive and balanced approach to the needs of the clubs and the national team.  In the lead up to RWC 2015 he works collaboratively to optimise competition structures, including working with the IRB,ERC,PRL and The Championship; player, coaching and referee development; sports medicine and sports science; and research and innovation and managing the RFU’s relationship with the RPA and Championship clubs.

If you want to criticise people - fine - we are all entitlted to an opinion, but please try to be fair.

On the EPS squad, most people are probably agreed on 80%+ of the squad which I think is a good thing, as Stuart Lancaster seems to have sifted through quite a few players to get to a group of 50 or so players who will take England through to the next world cup.

theres talk of Tom Wood taking over the captaincy (from Robshaw) when the squad is announced.

This isn't a thread about Rob Andrew, but the fact that he presided over both the firing of Brian Ashton, which was handled terribly, and the hiring of Martin Johnson, which was seriously misguided, should have been enough to see him gone. The period during which he held the title of "Director of Elite Rugby", with responsibility for all aspects of elite English rugby, was not a successful one, to put it mildly. That isn't an unfair position to take, and its one that many English rugby fans share.

The guy's only real talent seems, to me, to lie in the ability to avoid being plastered with brown smelly stuff every time it hits the fan. The failures that he's overseen do not seem to have dented his career, or standing within the RFU one iota, which i believe to be wrong. The fact that he played in 3 world cups, or was able to win the premiership with the help of Sir John Hall's millions shouldn't conceal that. He did indeed negotiate the EPS agreement, as well as the EQP program, but I can't see how you can justify the statement that only he could have done so. Besides, as I said earlier, only half in jest, the EPS is so complex that it requires the RFU to continue to employ the only man who fully understands it - Rob Andrew.

IMO it was not the hiring of MJ which was "seriously misguided", but his firing.
The renaissance of English rugby had already begun under MJ and it was not surely his fault that his senior players (Wilko apart) let him and us all down so grievously.

From the Telegraph which normally seems to be pretty accurate.

" While Lancaster is set to keep faith with those senior players – including Chris Ashton, Toby Flood, Brad Barritt and James Haskell – who were rested for the successful tour of Argentina in June, the England coach is also thought likely to want to add a significant fresh edge to his squad as he continues to build for the 2015 World Cup.

Dylan Hartley, who was denied a chance of representing the British and Irish Lions on their tour of Australia after receiving a suspension for verbally abusing referee Wayne Barnes in the Aviva Premiership final last season, will also be retained despite ongoing concerns about his disciplinary record.

Lancaster, however, is also expected to reward those who were pushing for promotion to the senior squad by dint of their end-of-season form or performances on the tour of Argentina, with Eastmond set to replace Jonathan Joseph and Attwood likely to come in for Calum Clark.

Vunipola, who started both Tests against Argentina, is likely to join his elder brother Mako, another triumphant Lion, in the senior squad. The pair, along with the Ben and Tom Youngs, will become the second set of brothers in Lancaster’s squad.

Christian Wade, another of Lancaster’s squad in Argentina who was called up by Lions head coach Warren Gatland, is also expected to be promoted to the senior squad.

The position of captaincy, however, is to be left open until October with last season’s leader Chris Robshaw, who was also rested for 2-0 series victory against Los Pumas, facing strong competition from Northampton flanker Tom Wood. England face Australia, Argentina and New Zealand at Twickenham in November.

No mention of Marland Yarde in either the piece in the telegraph or the Mail, which I find a little disappointing.

The telegraph seem to get everything to do with the England squad correct so I'd assume all their points are accurate. So from that, and the obvious definites, a few questions remain:

1. Will Webber be included as a third hooker, or will he stick with 2?
2. Will Kvesic be included as a fifth flanker, or will Haskells inclusion be at the expense of Kvesic?
3. No mention of a third/fourth winger. Will Strettle keep his place? Will Yarde or May break into the squad?

Lack of discussion of other positions suggests nothing exciting happening there, so it looks like we'll get pretty much what we're expecting, with perhaps only the questions above offering any potential variation.

I expect Webber and Kvesic to be there, the only real uncertainty for me is on the wing. I'm glad Ashton retains his place and Wade was a given really. But it could be any of the above 3. My order of preference would be May, Yarde, Strettle but I expect Lancaster to probably have the same list in reverse.

Portnoy's Complaint wrote:IMO it was not the hiring of MJ which was "seriously misguided", but his firing.
The renaissance of English rugby had already begun under MJ and it was not surely his fault that his senior players (Wilko apart) let him and us all down so grievously.

The worrying thing is I think you actually believe that....

MJ was out of his depth. He should never have been appointed. He didn't have any coaching role before the England job. I do feel a bit sorry because he was a sacrificial lamb unfit for the job.

I thought Wilkinson did let MJ down actually. Wilkinson has been a great servant for England but had a poor RWC.

MJ treated Flood badly at the world cup. Refused to pick the likes of Robshaw and Barritt.

Instead he stuck with the likes of Hape and a crocked Moody.

England were truly dire at the world cup under MJ.

People criticise SL for his lack of experience but he coached Leeds plus he's coached the Saxons and helped the development of a lot of players.

His squad is largely what people want to see. Lancaster has made errors too but I am confident he will correct them.

Yeah i agree Beshocked...sticking with hape, Moody etc was wrong.
Also he had an inform Flood as his number 1 then for some bizare reason simply dropped him for Wilko.

I have debated the odd selection by Lancaster, and his offensive planning but im just a little impatient. He's actually doing a good job if you ask me...slowly progressing the team. Build the basics then add to it.
Hopefully this season we'll start to see a little more adventure offensively...

I do think (whilst one player doesnt make a team) Morgans absence in the 6n was quite a big blow to our attacking game. Hopefully now with Billy in there we have an ideal replacement...and maybe even haskell

GeordieFalcon wrote:...and maybe even haskell

Why he wasnt chosen at no.8 instead of Wood. Even Robshaw at 8 with wood at 7 and croft at 6. But as an old teacher of mine used to say - the man who never made any mistakes never made anything.

What really matters is learning from the mistakes (and being lucky..)

Both squads now up:


England Senior EPS (33)




Forwards


David Attwood (Bath Rugby)
Dan Cole (Leicester Tigers)
Alex Corbisiero (Northampton Saints)
Tom Croft (Leicester Tigers)
Dylan Hartley (Northampton Saints)
Matt Kvesic (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Launchbury (London Wasps)
Courtney Lawes (Northampton Saints)
Joe Marler (Harlequins)
Ben Morgan (Gloucester Rugby)
Geoff Parling (Leicester Tigers)
Chris Robshaw (Harlequins)
Billy Vunipola (Saracens)
Mako Vunipola (Saracens)
David Wilson (Bath Rugby)
Tom Wood (Northampton Saints)
Tom Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


Backs


Chris Ashton (Saracens)
Brad Barritt (Saracens)
Mike Brown (Harlequins)
Freddie Burns (Gloucester Rugby)
Danny Care (Harlequins)
Lee Dickson (Northampton Saints)
Owen Farrell (Saracens)
Toby Flood (Leicester Tigers)
Ben Foden (Northampton Saints)
Alex Goode (Saracens)
Kyle Eastmond (Bath Rugby)
Manusamoa Tuilagi (Leicester Tigers)
Billy Twelvetrees (Gloucester Rugby)
Christian Wade (London Wasps)
Marland Yarde (London Irish)
Ben Youngs (Leicester Tigers)


England Saxons EPS (32)




Forwards


Calum Clark (Northampton Saints)
Jordan Crane (Leicester Tigers)
Paul Doran Jones (Harlequins)
Will Fraser (Saracens)
James Haskell (London Wasps)
Tom Johnson (Exeter Chiefs)
Graham Kitchener (Leicester Tigers)
George Kruis (Saracens)
Kearnan Myall (London Wasps)
David Paice (London Irish)
George Robson (Harlequins)
Ed Slater (Leicester Tigers)
Henry Thomas (Sale Sharks)
Thomas Waldrom (Leicester Tigers)
Luke Wallace (Harlequins)
Rob Webber (Bath Rugby)
Nick Wood (Gloucester Rugby)


Backs


Anthony Allen (Leicester Tigers)
Luther Burrell (Northampton Saints)
Elliot Daly (London Wasps)
George Ford (Bath Rugby)
Jonathan Joseph (Bath Rugby)
Jonny May (Gloucester Rugby)
Ugo Monye (Harlequins)
Stephen Myler (Northampton Saints)
Jack Nowell (Exeter Chiefs)
Charlie Sharples (Gloucester Rugby)
Joe Simpson (London Wasps)
David Strettle (Saracens)
Mathew Tait (Leicester Tigers)
Joel Tomkins (Saracens)
Richard Wigglesworth (Saracens)

Pretty much what most expected I think, although tough on Webber to be a Saxon and not a full EPS member.
 
Calum Clarke's poor season has seen him unjustifiably demoted to the Saxons. What is the world coming to?
 
Good to see Wade and Yarde included.
 
Great news for Nowell- he is such an exciting prospect.

Quite surprised that Hartley is still there given his discipline and Webbers showing over the summer.

I only have one complaint, which is Webber not in EPS. Other than that, he has made the right moves, bringing in Eastmond, Yarde, Attwood etc.

Really excited about our future

No Webber!!!!!!

How?

He was one of the best if not the best thing to come out of the Arg tour IMO?

I like those two squads.

Why is Callum Clark ANYWHERE near any squad FFS!!!!!

ahem..now ive got that out my system...

As expected, glad to see Attwood, Wade and Yarde rewarded with promotions and interesting to see Kvesic in the seniors and Haskell in the Saxons...and i like the Saxons aswell.

Dont forget in reality this is just one big squad really...Saxons can be promoted freely so a good start to the season by any of those guys will see them up in the Seniors...

Webber should be in the EPS ahead of Lee Dickson. Dickson very lucky to still be there after weak performances in Argentina. Can see his club place under threat with Fotuali'i joining Saints so I really don't see how he'll ever be anywhere near displacing Youngs or Care, and I don't agree with a player who has no chance of making a 23 being selected in the EPS. Injuries can be covered as and when they come.

I'm not too keen on Lancaster's use of the Saxons squad. He clearly views it as a pool for covering the main squad, rather than somewhere to develop young players.

Well I'm glad that some of the summer performances have been taken into account and Attwood, Kvesic, Yarde and Eastmond have been brought in. A little surprised by Webber, for me Hartley should have been demoted and told to work hard/stay out of trouble for the first few months of the season.

Jack Nowell in the Saxons squad, should be a good experience for him learning off the likes of Monye.
Calum Clarke is clearly still thought of as the 3rd best 6 or 7 in the country, which is interesting...

beshocked wrote: I like those two squads.

 I do aswell, bar the exclusion of Webber from the EPS.

Cracking news for Kruis and Fraser beshocked eh? Rewarded for both having good seasons.

  Hartley stay out of trouble?

Is it me or our are Backs a little light weight to take on WarrenBall?

bluestonevedder wrote:

beshocked wrote: I like those two squads.

 I do aswell, bar the exclusion of Webber from the EPS.

Cracking news for Kruis and Fraser beshocked eh? Rewarded for both having good seasons.

Ah its just two more Saracens player to have a go at aint it Beshocked   

Fraser had to be in...and im pleased to see Kruis think hes going to be a crackin player.

Scrumpy wrote:  Hartley stay out of trouble?

Is it me or our are Backs a little light weight to take on WarrenBall?

I wouldnt call Twelvetrees, Barritt, Tuilagi, Monye, Tomkins, etc particularly lightweight...

bluestonevedder yes it is. Well deserved I would say.

Agree with jeffwinger - that could be the replacement.

bathman in london I am not a Clark fan but who in your opinion should take his place as a 6?

Perhaps the godlike Garvey? Fearns?

beshocked wrote:bluestonevedder yes it is. Well deserved I would say.

Agree with jeffwinger - that could be the replacement.

bathman in london I am not a Clark fan but who in your opinion should take his place as a 6?

Perhaps the godlike Garvey? Fearns?

 Absolutely. I'm not sure where to settle Kruis though- is he a lock or blindside? GIien England's plethora of backrow talent, I hope he sticks to lock to be honest.

So the changes are (regarding only EPS):

Mauritz Botha David Attwood
Phil Dowson Matt Kvesic
Tom Johnson Marland Yarde (kind of)
Tom Palmer Joe Launchbury
Matt Stevens David Wilson
Tom Waldrum Billy Vunipola
Rob Webber Tom Youngs

Anthony Allen Freddie Burns
Jonathan Joseph Kyle Eastmond
Charlie Sharples Christian Wade
Jordan Turner-Hall Billy Twelvetrees

Extra player due to 8 man bench Mako Vunipola

Edit: Good changes in the forwards without any questions (IMO). I think Webber may be called up pretty quickly given the requirement for 2 hookers in every squad. He's also a potential for the January switch-up. But basically one less backrow for one more back. With the generally spread of backrow guys I think this is fine.

Back seem to be just changing one set of frindge players for another (although I'm hoping that Wade is given a chance to start

bluestonevedder he is a lock but like Lawes and Garvey for example he has been used at 6. Still means he is a lock.

Geordiefalcon it's the Saxons - not as if they are close to starting for England yet.

Hammerofthunor when you put it that way - it makes good reading.