England's next EPS due soon.

by **LondonTiger** Sat 06 Jul 2013, 9:15 pm

First topic message reminder :

Well it has been a good Summer for the development of the England team as 2015 comes ever quicker into sight. Twelve players with RWC aspirations (ie not Matt Stevens) featured for the Lions. Most of those will have seen their game improve - possibly none more than Owen Farrell. Training day in, day out with such good players for so long has to help.

The remaining players delivered everything we could have asked for in Argentina, whilst the juniors managed to win the JWC. We are truly starting to look as if there is competition for every place.

On July 5th 2012, Stuart Lancaster named last season's squad. He will shortly name this seasons. Most of the 33 players are probably fairly predictable, yet even so it should have a rather exciting look to it.

I suspect the squad will look something like:

Props (5): Cole, Corbisiero, Marler, Vunipola, Wilson
Hookers (3): Hartley, Webber, Youngs
Second Row (4): Attwood, Launchbury, Lawes, Parling
Back Row (6): Croft, Morgan, Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola (+ 1 from Clark, Haskell & Kvesic)

Half-Backs (5): Care, Farrell, Youngs (and two from Burns, Dickson & flood)
Centres (4): Barritt, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees (and one other from Eastmond, Joseph or Tomkins)
Wingers (3): Ashton, Wade, Yarde
Full Backs (3) Brown, Foden, Goode

It is possible to pick two decent teams from that, and so long as Lancaster picks specialists rather than trying to shoehorn players in, we could have a pretty decent season.

by bluestonevedder Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:32 am

Lovely visual HammerofThunor!

by **Ozzy3213** Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:33 am

As others have said, I am surprised by the ommission of Webber from the senior EPS. Hopefully if he starts the season well for Bath he will feature ahead of Hartley in the autumn series.

by Geordie Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:36 am

Geordiefalcon it's the Saxons - not as if they are close to starting for England yet.

In all honesty Beshocked mate its pretty much one squad...that Lancs can just promote and relegate as he sees fit...

And if Kruis or Fraser were to get a game either starting or off the bench for the 1st team...i actually wouldnt complain...rate them highly. Kruis proved v Munster the level he can play at...and Fraser was on fire all season.

For all those saying Kvesic is nailed on for the England 7 shirt over Robshaw in the near future...i think Fraser will have a big say about that.

Interesting that Wallace is in there aswell...that 4 7's Wallace, Robshaw, Fraser and Kvesic...(i appreciate Fraser is out injured so Wallace is covering that)

by **Ozzy3213** Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:39 am

A year ago I was touting Wallace as England's next 7. He didn't really kick on as expected last year, but was entrusted witht he Quins captaincy in the LV Cup. Hopefully this year he will get some decent game time for his club and can step up, as I genuinely feel that he has the skill set to play 7 for England and be part of making us a better attacking side.

by Cumbrian Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:40 am

Really pleased with the main squad, you can see the progression plan. Its seems to me that they aren't just building for the World Cup but they are putting a plan for longer term continuity. Creating experience so younger guys like Wade and Nowell can come into a settled team and perform is the way forward.

by Geordie Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:41 am

Whats peoples thoughts on Waldrom still there?

Thats maybe one of on very few selections i query...possibly could have used that place a bit better...

by bluestonevedder Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:43 am

I think it's out of necessity really. Who else is there to cover number 8 for the Saxons? I think Haskell will actually start ahead of him there for Saxons.

Fear not GF! I don't think we will see Tommy in the EPS again

by ChequeredJersey Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:44 am

Who else do we have who is an English 8 in decent form and of the quality to play Int A level? Aside from Nick Easter but that's a different matter. And Tom Guest who will hopefully finally get some more time this season

by doctor_grey Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:44 am

Cumbrian wrote:Really pleased with the main squad, you can see the progression plan. Its seems to me that they aren't just building for the World Cup but they are putting a plan for longer term continuity. Creating experience so younger guys like Wade and Nowell can come into a settled team and perform is the way forward.

I agree. Really does seem to be the plan.
What I would like to see is the team open up the attack a bit. Which then opens up the question about the fly-half and the centres. Hopefully everyone continues to develop together and learn to adapt if one style or game plan isn't working to easily change to another. But I think this is the biggest weakness in the team.

by Geordie Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:46 am

Well yes i appreciate there isnt many other 8's outside of Morgan, Billy, Crane and Waldrom really standing up.

And the focus is on Morgan and Billy anyway, meaning Waldrom gives the Saxons some experience.

by bluestonevedder Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:50 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:Well yes i appreciate there isnt many other 8's outside of Morgan, Billy, Crane and Waldrom really standing up.

And the focus is on Morgan and Billy anyway, meaning Waldrom gives the Saxons some experience.

I didn't see Crane's name there in the Saxons! I think the pecking order would be Crane, Haskell, Waldrom to be honest.

No Tommy Tank on the Twickenham Turf

by beshocked Thu 01 Aug 2013, 11:55 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Geordiefalcon it's the Saxons - not as if they are close to starting for England yet.

In all honesty Beshocked mate its pretty much one squad...that Lancs can just promote and relegate as he sees fit...

And if Kruis or Fraser were to get a game either starting or off the bench for the 1st team...i actually wouldnt complain...rate them highly. Kruis proved v Munster the level he can play at...and Fraser was on fire all season.

For all those saying Kvesic is nailed on for the England 7 shirt over Robshaw in the near future...i think Fraser will have a big say about that.

Interesting that Wallace is in there aswell...that 4 7's Wallace, Robshaw, Fraser and Kvesic...(i appreciate Fraser is out injured so Wallace is covering that)

The difficulty for Wallace is that currently he has Robshaw in front of him at Quins. Ksevic will have to battle with Qera for the Gloucester 7 shirt too.

Fraser has made himself the number one 7 for Sarries. He's still injured but his rival is Burger and there is no guarantee he'll get back to his best.

by kingelderfield Thu 01 Aug 2013, 12:06 pm

Big year for Billy V, new club, eps selection.....really hope he settles well at Sarries

I do think Goode is lucky not to drop down, I never want to see Lancaster select more than one fullback in a starting xv again.

We might have seen the last of Strettle.

Am glad to see Burrell gain some recognition, i thought he finished the season strongly, so will be interested to see how he progresses.

by Geordie Thu 01 Aug 2013, 12:06 pm

What if Quins move Robshaw back to 6 and play Wallace at 7

by propdavid_london Thu 01 Aug 2013, 12:12 pm

Surprised that Webber is dropped to the Saxons - would have preferred Hartley to be in there to get a bit of humility.

I would still love to see a EPS vs Saxons match - I'd pick these match day 23s

Corbis, Youngs, Cole
Launchbury, Parling
Wood, Robshaw, Morgan
Youngs
Farrell
Wade
Twelvetrees
Tuilagi
Yarde
Brown

Vaunipola, Hartley, Wilson, Attwood, Croft, Care, Burns, Eastmond

Against

PDJ, Webber, Wood
Ed Slater, Kruis
Haskell, Wallace, Crane
Wigglesworth
Myler
Sharples
J.Joseph
Tompkins
Monye
Daly

Paice, Thomas, Kitchener, Fraser, Waldrom, Simpson, Ford, Nowell.

by Geordie Thu 01 Aug 2013, 12:26 pm

I like that Prop David...but theres players who miss out.

Ie Id Rather Marler/ Vunipola was on the pitch than Wood.
Id rather Burns at 10 for the Saxons than Myler.
etc etc

But i do appreciate what your saying... Very Happy

by Cumbrian Thu 01 Aug 2013, 12:40 pm

Yep, what I like is the fact that in practically every positions there are two players who I would be equally comfortable being played. I no longer think x is injured 'We're doomed!'.

A first fifteen playoff would go something like this for me:

01. Alex Corbisiero
02. Tom Youngs
03. Dan Cole
04. Geoff Parling
05. Joe Launchbury
06. Tom Wood
07. Chris Robshaw
08. Ben Morgan

09. Ben Youngs
10. Owen Farrell

11. Chris Ashton
12. Billy Twelvetrees
13. Manu Tuilagi
14. Marland Yarde
15. Ben Foden

vs.

01. Joe Marler
02. Dylan Hartley
03. David Wilson
04. Dave Attwood
05. Courtney Lawes
06. Tom Croft
07. Matt Kvesic
08. Billy Vunipola

09. Danny Care
10. Toby Flood

11. Christian Wade
12. Kyle Eastmond
13. Brad Barritt
14. Ugo Monye
15. Mike Brown

I would pay to see that! I'm not kidding either...

by dummy_half Thu 01 Aug 2013, 12:48 pm

Well, if the biggest question that can be raised is over the choice of 2nd / 3rd hooker and whether they should be included in the EPS or the Saxons squad, I think it's fair to say that Lancaster has slected pretty well this time.

certainly trimmed some of the dead wood and stop gap players (Dowson, Botha) from the main squad and replaced with younger potential.

Also interesting that it's two genuine wingers in for one out (Yarde, Wade for Strettle), so suggesting that the two full backs idea might be drawing to a close (although to be fair it works OK if Foden is the winger and Brown the full back, not so much with Brown on the wing and Goode at FB).

by Geordie Thu 01 Aug 2013, 12:52 pm

Id pay to see that too Cumbrian.

But swap Flood for Burns...lets see the two pretenders go head to head Very Happy

by lostinwales Thu 01 Aug 2013, 1:08 pm

Tait back into the Saxons too. Another reason for Goode's days to be numbered

by propdavid_london Thu 01 Aug 2013, 2:44 pm

Things that I am disappointed about -
Webber in the Saxons and Hartley in the EPS.

Well done to -
Attwood
Wade
Kvesic
Billy V
and to Wallace and Nowell for making the Saxons
Why are they still there? -
Tom Waldrom - see comments on Crane
Dave Strettle - Plenty of other options, Biggs etc.
Callum Clarke - don't even get me started - WTF!
Crane - Easter is still better, or Guest, or Jack Clifford.
PDJ - What's happened to Mullan
D.Paice - So mediocre, shocking when playing for Saxons last season. What about Buchannan? or Lindsey.
T.Johnson - nothing special, so many other options.

Most of these guys have been tried and found wanting - why are they still in the fringe squad!

by Guest Thu 01 Aug 2013, 2:59 pm

No Matt Garvey either. Headscratch

by Geordie Thu 01 Aug 2013, 3:04 pm

Now dont get me started on that one Mawhis....i wouldnt expect to see him in an England shirt while Lancs is there.

Lets see what his form is like for Bath this season.

by bluestonevedder Thu 01 Aug 2013, 3:06 pm

lostinwales wrote:Tait back into the Saxons too. Another reason for Goode's days to be numbered

Big time. Just what I thought when I saw it too. He's a lucky man if you ask me.

by **LondonTiger** Thu 01 Aug 2013, 3:34 pm

I am really surprised that they have gone with just two hookers, yet 3 scrum halves and 3 stand offs.

As the incumbent full back from the 6Ns, Alex Goode was always going to be in the squad.

Shocked and disappointed by Waldrom's inclusion in the Saxons. I would rather have seen a younger player such as Jackson Wray or Sam Jones included.

Pleased for Matt Tait, just hope we can keep him fit.

by Looseheaded Thu 01 Aug 2013, 4:34 pm

dont worry chaps chrashton made the cut you'll still have him putting in big hits and running tries in for fun

by maestegmafia Thu 01 Aug 2013, 4:54 pm

Good promotions to the full eps.. Plenty of strength and depth there. We should expect big things this coming season.

by bluestonevedder Thu 01 Aug 2013, 4:59 pm

Looseheaded wrote:dont worry chaps chrashton made the cut you'll still have him putting in big hits and running tries in for fun

Saviour!

by Chjw131 Thu 01 Aug 2013, 5:33 pm

Like the EPS a lot I must say. I can understand why Hartley is still there, Lancs sees him as having the experience necessary but I think he's on his last chance Webber is coming up fast.

On the Garvey front Bath could field a pack of:

1. P James
2. R Webber
3. D Wilson
4. M Garvey
5. D Attwood
6. C Fearns
7. F Louw
8. N Koster

That's a pretty formidible pack by any standards and with some other young English lads due to come through such as Nathan Catt, Guy Mercer and the likes of Will Spencer it's looking good in the pack.

I'd like to see a couple of changes to the Saxons over the next year or so and I think there will be but the EPS is looking very strong.

by doctor_grey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 12:14 am

GeordieFalcon wrote:
Scrumpy wrote: Hartley stay out of trouble?

Is it me or our are Backs a little light weight to take on WarrenBall?

I wouldnt call Twelvetrees, Barritt, Tuilagi, Monye, Tomkins, etc particularly lightweight...

Can we play Eastmond and Wade at the same time? The two combined weigh the same as one prop. Seriously they give away a lot of weight. Can they handle the kind of beef which will be aimed at them? Of course, the converse is whether the larger guys can keep up with them? Still seems like a mismatch, though.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 8:08 am

Eastmond looks a very good tackler for his size and from what I've seen of Wade he can generally hold someone up until support gets there. That and the fact Eastmond is probably challenging for Ashton's place who isn't known for his tackling. Engrained in my brain is the moment Banahan went 1 on 1 with ickle Shane from 10 yards out. Size isn't everything.

by yappysnap Fri 02 Aug 2013, 9:09 am

LondonTiger wrote:I am really surprised that they have gone with just two hookers, yet 3 scrum halves and 3 stand offs.

As the incumbent full back from the 6Ns, Alex Goode was always going to be in the squad.

Shocked and disappointed by Waldrom's inclusion in the Saxons. I would rather have seen a younger player such as Jackson Wray or Sam Jones included.

Pleased for Matt Tait, just hope we can keep him fit.

Lancaster is probably expecting at least one injury before the AI's and will then use that place to bring in Webber.

Really good looking squads, this is probably the best EPS selection that's been made and gives me a little more faith in SL. Of course it's now going to be down to the coaches to get that gameplan sorted.

What are the fixtures for the AI's anyone?

by No 7&1/2 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 9:13 am

Australia, Argentina and NZ.

I really think 2 out of the 3 are very winnable. I think we can beat NZ but I'm expecting a big backlash so as long as we're very competitive and don't go into our shells I'll be happy. That's the big game though and I don't want us to wilt as badly as we did at the MS no matter what.

by **Ozzy3213** Fri 02 Aug 2013, 9:35 am

At home, we should be looking to win all three games.

by Geordie Fri 02 Aug 2013, 9:39 am

Dr,

I dont see why you couldnt play Wade and Eastmond in the same lineup?

9 Youngs / Care
10 Farrell
11 Wade
12 Eastmond
13 Tuilagi / Twelvetrees / Tomkins
14 Yarde
15 Foden / Brown

I think that would give a nice blend of skill and power.
And i dont think Eastmond or Wade are weak...smaller in stature yes (Eastmond looks as wide as he is tall mind) but doesnt mean they cant tackle.

The Aussie backs for me are the standard bearers...and theyve never been utter juggernauts. Always been more skills based...

by Scrumpy Fri 02 Aug 2013, 9:56 am

9 Youngs / Care
10 Farrell
11 Wade
12 Eastmond
13 Tuilagi / Twelvetrees / Tomkins
14 Yarde
15 Foden / Brown

Too light weight.

by Geordie Fri 02 Aug 2013, 9:59 am

How is it too lightweight?

by Scrumpy Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:03 am

Wales and many others would bash us for the fun of it!

As much as I like the players individually and as exciting as it looks on paper, as a International team I just think it looks too lightweight for this level.

by Guest Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:06 am

I can't see how you could make it much more heavyweight with the players available.

by thomh Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:10 am

Twelvetrees in at 12 for one. It would still be lighter than the Wales back line but then everyone's is.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:12 am

I go back to Banahan again. Huge guy but limited impact on the international scene. Rather have Wade on the wing than him. And Eastmond at centre than him. Plus the fact I would have hoped/thought that 12trees starts at inside centre anyway.

by thomh Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:17 am

Yes but the fact that Banahan had limited impact doesn't on its own prove that size isn't important. I would be happy with Wade, Yarde and Eastmond in there as individuals but with all three of them we'd struggle physically.

by Guest Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:20 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:I go back to Banahan again. Huge guy but limited impact on the international scene. Rather have Wade on the wing than him. And Eastmond at centre than him. Plus the fact I would have hoped/thought that 12trees starts at inside centre anyway.

England's next EPS due soon. - Page 2 O5apug

by No 7&1/2 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:24 am

But it proves that it's not all important. It's about technique. If they all prove to be revolving doors in defence they'd have to be ripping opposition defences apart to have any further consideration. I think they'll be fine and a better choice than some previously.

Good interception mawhis. Nice offload. Everyones got something like that on youtube tho!

by Geordie Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:29 am

Personally i dont want to see a backline of juggernauts.

i want a nice mix.Big guys like Tuilagi, Twelvtrees, Tomkin with explosive players like Yarde, Foden etc and skilled players like Wade, Eastmond, Brown who can get past players or create things.

We are at point now where we can mix the side up dependant on opposition.

If we're playing wales and your so concerned about them...then put out a big backline...

by beshocked Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:33 am

Size to a degree is overrated.

Wesley Fofana is not big. Ickle Shane never was.

BOD and Conrad Smith two of the best outside centres in the world - not big but two incredibly classy players.

On the other hand Scrumpy I would agree that there could a problem with eastmond if he is only 5,7 and not even 13st, Wade -under 13st too, 5,8 and Yarde all in the same backline.

I would worry about them trying to tackle the monster welsh backline for example.

Your backline would be even lighter if you had Burns at fly half rather than Farrell.

by thomh Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:36 am

No 7&1/2 wrote:But it proves that it's not all important. It's about technique. If they all prove to be revolving doors in defence they'd have to be ripping opposition defences apart to have any further consideration. I think they'll be fine and a better choice than some previously.

Good interception mawhis. Nice offload. Everyones got something like that on youtube tho!

I didn't say size was sufficient for a backline to function. I said it was necessary.

You want a balance between the two, and for me having all three of Eastmond, Yarde and Wade in there is a great Saxons lineup but would struggle against top international teams.

by No 7&1/2 Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:43 am

Time will tell as I think they may well get a run out together sometime in the future. Clearly anyone after Barritt is a step down defensively but he hardly made a difference against Wales by himself as everyone was mullered.

I haven't really been impressed with Ashtons defence or any of the left wingers (and full backs playing wing) defence for a while either so not sure we would have too much of a step down. One area where we would struggle is the high kick against Wade but thats a problem even if the rest are 6 6 and 20 stone (and it still shouldn't stop us picking him imo).

by doctor_grey Fri 02 Aug 2013, 10:55 am

I suppose the only way to really find out about Eastmond and Wade is to play them. I am less worried about Wade because he is on the outside.

But Eastmond at Inside Centre is where there is an awful lot of traffic. I suppose if he cannot handle it we would find out quickly. Both players do have exciting attacking skills, so I presume we will find out some time soon?

by Bathman_in_London Fri 02 Aug 2013, 11:00 am

thomh wrote:
No 7&1/2 wrote:But it proves that it's not all important. It's about technique. If they all prove to be revolving doors in defence they'd have to be ripping opposition defences apart to have any further consideration. I think they'll be fine and a better choice than some previously.

Good interception mawhis. Nice offload. Everyones got something like that on youtube tho!

I didn't say size was sufficient for a backline to function. I said it was necessary.

You want a balance between the two, and for me having all three of Eastmond, Yarde and Wade in there is a great Saxons lineup but would struggle against top international teams.

I may be wrong, but isnt Yarde a pretty big bloke? Smaller than North sure, but compared to most other international wingers I don't think he's much smaller?

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