Men's Final (Preview and Match Thread) - Djokovic V Murray

[CaledonianCraig]

First topic message reminder :

Tomorrow will see the meeting of the World No.1 and World No.2 in the final. I really am in two minds about how it will pan out so I will try to look at the various ways it could go.

I will fancy Andy's chances strongly if his serve operates as well as it did against Janowicz but we know Djoko is a far superior returner. The rule of thumb between the pair is that the better server gets the result but we shall see if this is the case tomorrow.

Aggression is also key and Andy must be prepared to get his attacks in first and put Djokovic under pressure. If Andy lapses into bouts of passiveness as he can then he is asking for trouble and will hand the initiative to Novak and quite probably lose the match.

In my opinion and stats suggest as well that Andy is the better/more natural grass court player so that gives him an edge. On the other hand thus far at this Wimbledon I would say Novak has been more consistent so that works in his favour. That is why this is so tight to call in my opinion.

I am hoping that last year's pain Andy had to suffer in defeat will inspire him to do what it takes to avoid more heartbreak and push him over the winning line tomorrow. This could go either way and I just hope for the neutral that it is a classic match and no doubt the best player will win on the day. Enjoy the final.

Craig

[CaledonianCraig]

But why say it? I mean I could say the same about some of Fed's slam wins to take the rise but I didn't as it is a worthless thing to say. Besides Murray was chasing down a heck of a lot at the end of that third set so he wasn't exactly labouring. In any case it is all meaningless as Murray stood strong.

[Josiah Maiestas]

How many unforced errors from Novak, such a terrible grass player!

Murrays 1 (and only) Wimbledon will be put to the fluke charter.

Delpo should take this slam in 2014.

[bogbrush]

But why say it? I mean I could say the same about some of Fed's slam wins to take the rise but I didn't as it is a worthless thing to say. Besides Murray was chasing down a heck of a lot at the end of that third set so he wasn't exactly labouring. In any case it is all meaningless as Murray stood strong.

Ffs you're all a bit hyper if you can't handle an observation that Murray was red lining. I was desperate he won that game because I believed he might have been reeled in afterwards.

It's not taking a rise, it's just some people are getting a little irrational.

[Poorfour]

An intermittent tennis fan here, a little puzzled by some of the reactions on this site, particularly why people feel it was a poor final and Djokovic was below par.

On paper I can see how it would look like a straightforward straight sets win for Murray, but that hides a much closer match and one with what looked to me like some excellent tennis. There were 30 break points and 11 breaks of serve across 32 games - hardly an uneventful match. And while the crucial points ultimately went Murray's way, both players seemed to me to be moving and hitting well, and after the first couple of games the unforced error count seemed pretty low.

I thought it was enthralling viewing - much more so than last year, where Federer dominated after the first set.

For what it's worth, I have long thought that Murray is an excellent and very complete player, who just had the misfortune to be playing at the same time as three of the greatest players the game has ever seen (and perhaps ever will). The question has been whether he can raise his consistency to a point where he can win the big titles. Today seemed to show that he can, and he seemed much more in control of his emotions. I expect him to go on to win several more grand slam titles now.

Murray is now the current holder of 3 of tennis's biggest titles. Quite an achievement, but it seems to have snuck up on us...

[bogbrush]

2, including the biggest.

Please don't count the Olympics. Just please.....

[Guest]

It was a home olympics... they count, it was also the impetus to what came today

[CaledonianCraig]

But why say it? I mean I could say the same about some of Fed's slam wins to take the rise but I didn't as it is a worthless thing to say. Besides Murray was chasing down a heck of a lot at the end of that third set so he wasn't exactly labouring. In any case it is all meaningless as Murray stood strong.

Ffs you're all a bit hyper if you can't handle an observation that Murray was red lining. I was desperate he won that game because I believed he might have been reeled in afterwards.

It's not taking a rise, it's just some people are getting a little irrational.

Was he red-lining though? You are saying that as if it was a fact. You said he was red-lining to get the game back to 4-4 but if that were the case how come he did so much running to seal the match from a difficult position at 5-4? Unless you are saying he was red-lining through two games? And even if he were I am sure Novak was struggling in the extreme heat as well in apparently the hottest men's final since 1976 and so he had plenty of work still to do to turn it around even if he had broken serve. The way it was going Andy was just as likely to break straight back was he not?

[bogbrush]

That's how I saw it, and over here on non-hysterical TV they were looking closely at Murray and McEnroe was pointing out where he was showing more signs of fatigue.

Of course Murray poured it all into that last game. He would anyway, but would do so even more if he really was starting to hurt badly.

Then Andy confirmed it after the match.

[Guest]

If's and buts are nothing now. The the chances were or wernt taken. Were all arguing over nothing, for the simple sake of it.

[Guest]

He was tired. Hence why he finished it. Novak wasnt good enough to take him further, thats that

[bogbrush]

If's and buts are nothing now. The the chances were or wernt taken. Were all arguing over nothing, for the simple sake of it.

Actually we're arguing because some people think musing on that last game being critical in more ways than one is apparently trying to undermine Murray.

Completely ridiculous reactions.

[Guest]

BB todays Murrays day, people are gonna get excited. Its the day for it, cut them some slack.
For what its worth i disagree with the last game being critical, given last years us open, and how badly Novak was struggling on serve. Of course it hit Muzz after that game, hed won and all the pressure released, if hed have lost hed have pushed for a second wind... hes done it before

[CaledonianCraig]

That's how I saw it, and over here on non-hysterical TV they were looking closely at Murray and McEnroe was pointing out where he was showing more signs of fatigue.

Of course Murray poured it all into that last game. He would anyway, but would do so even more if he really was starting to hurt badly.

Then Andy confirmed it after the match.

Yes but you are missing the point aren't you? He sealed the match played perhaps his best tennis with some great shots - red-lining or not does it matter? In the end of course not. It matters not one iota. It was one of those matches that Murray played the bigger points better and deserved the win so lets just leave it at that.

[slashermcguirk]

There is no doubting Murray played very well, just surprised at how poor Novak was. His serving was atrocious, he was hitting it much slower than usual. He just didn't seem up for it today. To be 4-1 up in 2nd set and 4-2 up in 3rd and lose both is so unlike him.

Very strange performance

[lydian]

Sorry was watching the mixed doubles match. Jubba I'm not patriotic in wanting a British player to win a slam but I am patriotic in wanting the only tennis system we have - the British Lawn Tennis Association - to provide better coaching to our kids. By default our kids don't get taught in France but I don't care if a France person wins Wimbledon over a British player.

BB, I saw it the same. Murray would have been a broken man if Djokovic had taken that game. No guarantees Djokovic would have gone on to win but you would fancy his chances. But he didn't break and Murray won...nothing wrong in commenting on the match as it was. It's not "bah humbug" vs Murray, just saying he was placing everything on those last 2-3 games, his tank was running emptier than Djokovic's IMO so a 4th set would have taken Murray's legs, again IMO. Djokovic was just starting to find his full mojo you felt...but far too late.

Anyway, Murray won, the nation can go mad and bask in patriotic glory, or fan glory if you like Murray. So well done to him and his fans, I'm still not a fan of the guy but admire his efforts and he deserved it today  

[CaledonianCraig]

BB, I saw it the same. Murray would have been a broken man if Djokovic had taken that game. No guarantees Djokovic would have gone on to win but you would fancy his chances. But he didn't break and Murray won...nothing wrong in commenting on the match as it was. It's not "bah humbug" vs Murray, just saying he was placing everything on those last 2-3 games, his tank was running emptier than Djokovic's IMO so a 4th set would have taken Murray's legs, again IMO. Djokovic was just starting to find his full mojo you felt...but far too late.

Remember that even if he had broken back he would have only pulled it level at 5-5 taking it back on serve. Wasn't Murray a broken man trailing 4-1 in the second set yet turned that around so even if Novak had broken it was not a given he would have won the set. Remember as well he had a massive slice of luck on one of the match points I think when he hit the net cord and the ball crawled over the net.

[Guest]

I do agree if Murray was broken after serving for the match that Djokovic would've had all the momentum to finish Murray. Probably. Thats a discussion for another day, but Djokovic had more gears he could've clicked into. The call in the 2nd set got under Novak's skin which shifted the whole match in Andy's favour. Andy was mixing it up throughout the match and in the 3rd I think showed signs of fading given I think the winner rate was down for the 3rd and Djokovic's UE went through the roof.

Either way Andy showed enough mental strength to see it home and that was the mental strength that he has acquired since being with Lendl.

I am pleased anyhow with the end result.

[bogbrush]

Arrrghhhhhhhh! Craig!!!!!!!

Who said otherwise???????

All I f****** said was that I felt he would have struggled to win in 4or 5. Christ almighty why is that raining on anyone's parade? I even wanted him to win.

Falzy, you may be right. That's not at issue, it's JubbaIsle trying to classify legitimate match discussion as heresy.

[bogbrush]

BB, I saw it the same. Murray would have been a broken man if Djokovic had taken that game. No guarantees Djokovic would have gone on to win but you would fancy his chances. But he didn't break and Murray won...nothing wrong in commenting on the match as it was. It's not "bah humbug" vs Murray, just saying he was placing everything on those last 2-3 games, his tank was running emptier than Djokovic's IMO so a 4th set would have taken Murray's legs, again IMO. Djokovic was just starting to find his full mojo you felt...but far too late.

Remember that even if he had broken back he would have only pulled it level at 5-5 taking it back on serve. Wasn't Murray a broken man trailing 4-1 in the second set yet turned that around so even if Novak had broken it was not a given he would have won the set. Remember as well he had a massive slice of luck on one of the match points I think when he hit the net cord and the ball crawled over the net.

No, he wasn't a broken man at 1-4 2nd set. Who said that.

No, that net cord was at deuce, and in any case has no bearing on what would have happened later. Nobody is trying to say Murray was lucky or take it away from him, can't you just see that and treat the posts in that light?

[CaledonianCraig]

And at the end of the day it is all irrelevant isn't it? What if's mean nothing in sport it is what is that matters.

On another note though when was the last time Novak was beaten in straight sets in a slam final?

[banbrotam]

Djokovic had more gears he could've clicked into

I'm not convinced. I said that before his QF I was worried about Novak, but he then had a series of brain fades and I don't see why he would suddenly turn it on for two hours and start playing like it was 2011

I think that the court, which in the last few days surely must have been the fastest in years (look at how if helped Andy's serve) started to catch Novak out, who has a very 'drilled' way of playing. I think that then put doubt into his mind coming into the final

The pleasing thing about this, is that it wasn't a barnstorming Andy performance like at The Olympics - but he was way too solid for Novak

And I think he would have regrouped for sets 4 or 5

[Calder106]

BB, I saw it the same. Murray would have been a broken man if Djokovic had taken that game. No guarantees Djokovic would have gone on to win but you would fancy his chances. But he didn't break and Murray won...nothing wrong in commenting on the match as it was. It's not "bah humbug" vs Murray, just saying he was placing everything on those last 2-3 games, his tank was running emptier than Djokovic's IMO so a 4th set would have taken Murray's legs, again IMO. Djokovic was just starting to find his full mojo you felt...but far too late.

 

Not disagreeing with a lot of what is being said here. Who knows what would have happened if Murray had lost that set after having three match points. I am though having difficulty understanding the bit in bold. How can someone finding 'their full mojo' lose 4 games in a row to lose the set and match.

[bogbrush]

And at the end of the day it is all irrelevant isn't it? What if's mean nothing in sport it is what is that matters.

On another note though when was the last time Novak was beaten in straight sets in a slam final?

USO 2007?

[Danny_1982]

I thought Murray looked in trouble physically when he lost 4 games in a row in the third. I'd almost written it off and hoped he could find more energy for the fourth set. But he recovered from it quickly to push again.

I think BB may have a point that had Murray been broken in the last game having put so much into it he may have lost the set, but I personally don't believe it would have been beyond him to win the fourth or fifth set.

It's all hypothetical anyway. I don't think anyone (apart from the few WUMs flying around) is trying to take credit away from Murray. After beating Djokovic in straights sets that's pretty impossible to do anyway, it's an incredible result.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yes BB just checked up. His first slam final in a defeat against Roger Federer.

I am sat here thinking how many slams Novak will end up with and how many Andy can win? As for gatecrashers perhaps Del Potro can become more of a contender.

[Danny_1982]

Craig - I really look forward to enjoying Andy play in slams now. He's won the open and now his home slam, the biggest prize in tennis. So as a fan of his it's going to be nice to just enjoy him play knowing that he's already written his name in the history books.

If he never wins another slam he's still this country's greatest tennis player for three quarters of a century, and that's no longer subjective.. It's a fact.

How many? No idea. He could clock up 4 more realistically I guess, but it's just about enjoying the ride now. And I can't wait.

[bogbrush]

Pressures off now, all gone.

By the way, SPOTY may as well have been handed out by Sue Barker today too.

[CaledonianCraig]

Agreed Danny.  

The monkey has long been removed from his back and with it he plays with far better belief even when things look like they are going against him. This win will further feed that winning mentality and confidence and expel the ghost of Wimbledon past (2012). I can never see him winning the French Open unless he shows mighty improvement on clay but he will be a big contender for the other three slams over the next three or four years.

Apparently he has now went level with Roger and Rafa as being the only player to make four slam finals in a row (I take it that is omitting the French Open as he was injured?).

[slashermcguirk]

By the way, how head wrecking is Andrew castle???? Drive me nuts throughout. Behind it all as a Novak fan I am happy for Murray

[bogbrush]

Nah, he can't have that Craig. You can't miss a tourney and keep a record going.

And Lendl did six.

It's this for best runs of finals.

1. Federer - 10
2. Federer - 8
3. Lendl - 6

[HM Murdock]

Nah, he can't have that Craig. You can't miss a tourney and keep a record going.

And Lendl did six.

Novak did 4 in a row too!

[CaledonianCraig]

Ah right more fool me - believe it was on BBC Live updates page. Bet John Inverdale put that up.  

[Danny_1982]

Pressures off now, all gone.

By the way, SPOTY may as well have been handed out by Sue Barker today too.

Yeah true. The BBC were saying things like "give him a knighthood" which makes me cringe. I mean, I'd be happy for him to get one after his career is finished, but the idea if him being referred to as Sir Andy while he's still playing makes me quiver. You can just tell he would hate it too.

[barrystar]

BB, I saw it the same.... he was placing everything on those last 2-3 games, his tank was running emptier than Djokovic's IMO so a 4th set would have taken Murray's legs, again IMO. Djokovic was just starting to find his full mojo you felt...but far too late.

It's not impossible, but it's unlikely that Djoko was saving himself in those games - he needed them even more than Murray but he wasn't able to do enough. I do agree, however, that Murray was running down absolutely everything and it seemed as though he was doing more running than Djoko and looking more whacked after some of those points - but I don't buy it that Djoko was finding his full mojo, he had raised his level a bit but remained uncharacteristically inconsistent.

I think Murray got awfully tight during that game, but then found a way out.

Anyway - very well done Murray and Djoko was a gentleman as always. Great to see CC giving him such a generous reception.

Murray has said slams are slams - I think he's about to find out that's not true, in the best possible way. I see him picking up 2-3 more slams over the next 2-3 years, quite probably another Wimbledon or two. It's difficult not to believe that Lendl has made a difference.

[CaledonianCraig]

Pressures off now, all gone.

By the way, SPOTY may as well have been handed out by Sue Barker today too.

Yeah true. The BBC were saying things like "give him a knighthood" which makes me cringe. I mean, I'd be happy for him to get one after his career is finished, but the idea if him being referred to as Sir Andy while he's still playing makes me quiver. You can just tell he would hate it too.

I fully agree. Leave off the knighthoods until his career is over.

[ryan86]

Sir Murray is challenging the call on the rightside baseline. The ball was called out.

[invisiblecoolers]

Murray more natural then Roger at the net lool and your calling me the windup

Have you only been watching the Roger of the last 2 years???

I've been watching Tennis for nearly 40 years and was a fan of Federer way before his infamous Sampras victory. He's good at the net, but I think Andy is better - not miles better, but better - that's my opinion

I think that we have to call into question your knowledge of the game if you think that my point is a windup. I'm quite happy to concede if put to me in the correct manner, that Roger might be better. Would you like to try?

Banbro don't be silly to argue with WUMs at this moment of time, Andy did it and the energy should be channalized just for celebrating it. 

Muzza rulesssssssssssssssssssssss

     

Congrats to you all friends......

 

[invisiblecoolers]

I had a feeling that last game could have been decisive the other way. Murray red lined it to get the break at 4-4 and I think if it hadn't been three sets he would probably have lost it.

Murray serving for the match was crucial game, he was 40-15 up and ended up giving break point to Djoko, if Djoko would have taken it he might have taken the match as well, Andy kept himself composed inspite of being a pressure cooker situation and patiently got it back to deuce with a big serve and served it out patiently.

Muzza rules:drumroll: 

[Danny_1982]

Sir Murray is challenging the call on the rightside baseline. The ball was called out.

Imigine it, good grief...

"Time violation Sir Murray...."

[CaledonianCraig]

I am still bamboozled by Novak's game plan. There was no rhyme or reason for it. It seemed he was trying to be the aggressor but just missed too many shots and he then tried drop shots that Andy snuffed out. According to some sites Novak is saying he was tired after the semis but that must be from post-match press conference.

[CaledonianCraig]

Sir Murray is challenging the call on the rightside baseline. The ball was called out.

Imigine it, good grief...

"Time violation Sir Murray...."

Blimey I know the players have to bow to the royal box but would that mean the ball boys and girls would have to bow to him?  

[JubbaIsle]

I had a feeling that last game could have been decisive the other way. Murray red lined it to get the break at 4-4 and I think if it hadn't been three sets he would probably have lost it.

Give it up BB, could've's, would've's, might've's don't count, did it and has done it only matters now, why are you persisting in trying to deride his accomplishment, I thought you'd given up wumming years ago on the old 606 ?

It was funny then, but not now.

What a div some people can be sometimes. I'm not deriding him one iota, it's a comment on the match, in response to another's thought about the last game. i could see that Murray was tiring - as he confirmed post match.

You're probably drinking too much so I'll lay off.

I am surprised at you BB, how you can heap so much criticism on players, yet you baulk at the slightest remark made against your opinions. At least you have the luxury of answering such comments. And descending into puerile insults too, calling me a div ? do you know what that means ? Anyway......

Murray was tired, they both were, Novak had many chances to break Murray in the last game, he didnt, many times he didnt, just accept the fact that Novak was outplayed. Djokivic is good at last gasp heroics, he tried that at the USO last year and failed that time too. As for red lining, anyone who was serving for the match would put absolutely everything into winning that game, you're deluded if you think differently, but it doesn't mean they would have nothing left for the rest of the match. Trying to make out that Murray would've tanked the match after that is just a worthless exercise in satire (if you had a sense of humour) that inevitably ends up as ridicule, and I base that on the total account of your comments post the final. I can't find a single comment of you saying well done, even though you state you wanted him to win ROFLOL !

[Dave.]

Right enough - would he have to be called Sir Andy when the game is called and all that?

Shouldn't get it to his career is over, mind.

[Danny_1982]

Yeah Craig, he kinda contradicts himself a bit... He says physically he felt ok but maybe the semi took it out of him and that resulted in making bad choices at crucial moments.

I thought he might be in trouble if it had gone to a fifth, but I didn't expect the damage to be mental or emotional. He's one of the toughest players mentally I've ever watched.

[CaledonianCraig]

Yeah Craig, he kinda contradicts himself a bit... He says physically he felt ok but maybe the semi took it out of him and that resulted in making bad choices at crucial moments.

I thought he might be in trouble if it had gone to a fifth, but I didn't expect the damage to be mental or emotional. He's one of the toughest players mentally I've ever watched.

True Danny. However, post-Australian Open there have been flaws in that mental toughness for some reason. He has lost against players he'd normally expect to beat and lost matches from a winning position (Nadal at French Open). Something is missing from his game at the moment and he needs to rediscover it or he could lose his way.

[HM Murdock]

I am still bamboozled by Novak's game plan. There was no rhyme or reason for it. It seemed he was trying to be the aggressor but just missed too many shots and he then tried drop shots that Andy snuffed out. According to some sites Novak is saying he was tired after the semis but that must be from post-match press conference.

Tiredness may have been a factor as the game progressed but Novak was second best from the outset today.

I don't think Novak's failure was one of tactics, it was one of nerve.

He's served beautifully all tournament but it was awful today. When nerves are getting to Novak, it's the serve that goes. In poker terms, it's his "tell"! The forehand often follows suit and that was the case today too.

Andy, although he had a few mad moments, was a much more authoratative presence on court today. Whether that's Lendl's influence or just maturity, it's massive improvement Andy has made there. He's not cowed by anyone.

[banbrotam]

BB, I saw it the same.... he was placing everything on those last 2-3 games, his tank was running emptier than Djokovic's IMO so a 4th set would have taken Murray's legs, again IMO. Djokovic was just starting to find his full mojo you felt...but far too late.

It's not impossible, but it's unlikely that Djoko was saving himself in those games - he needed them even more than Murray but he wasn't able to do enough.  I do agree, however, that Murray was running down absolutely everything and it seemed as though he was doing more running than Djoko and looking more whacked after some of those points - but I don't buy it that Djoko was finding his full mojo, he had raised his level a bit but remained uncharacteristically inconsistent.

I think Murray got awfully tight during that game, but then found a way out.

Anyway - very well done Murray and Djoko was a gentleman as always.  Great to see CC giving him such a generous reception.

Murray has said slams are slams - I think he's about to find out that's not true, in the best possible way.  I see him picking up 2-3 more slams over the next 2-3 years, quite probably another Wimbledon or two.  It's difficult not to believe that Lendl has made a difference.

I love some of those, who think that Novak was suddenly going to turn it on. Ever since the start of the 2nd set of the Berdy match, he's looked more vulnerable, i.e. like a player not used to the conditions

I mean he wins 4 in a trot but then say loses 3 and perhaps would have won the next and then got his "mojo" back - I don't think so

He looked as out of sorts as Murray did playing Ferrer last year at the French. Maybe it's simply a case that Roger and Andy are very good players in fast conditions and Novak is a very good player in medium fast ones

[bogbrush]

I don't think Djokovic would have improved, it was Murray who I thought was a half set from spluttering for fuel.

[CaledonianCraig]

I don't think Djokovic would have improved, it was Murray who I thought was a half set from spluttering for fuel.

Hmm but now Novak is saying he was feeling tired as well according to post-match press conference reports.

[bogbrush]

Yeah, he's saying he was dodgy from the semi, right?

The lines can cross though, you know. I saw the stat that showed Andy ran about 15-20% more than Novak! I'm fairly certain the dropshots were calculated to drain him.

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