Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

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Or will he blindly keep calm and carry on? Some tips from me are:-

#1. Power blended with pace wins rugby matches. Soften them up with the bludgeon and then apply the finish with pace.

This means:-
1. Tom Youngs is too under-powered to start a test match. Much better off the bench.
2. Corbs is the real deal at loose-head.
3. Cole is a little under-powered at scrum time but may get better. Hopefully.
4. Croft was found out by Gatland. He is lightweight and goes absent from the coal-face too often. Let him go like Gatland did.
5. Stop playing people out of position FFS. Put wingers on the wing, #8s at #8 and full-backs at full-back for goodness sake.
6. Let Chris Ashton go even though you think he's a nice boy. He has had his chance to show he can tackle and failed.
7. You must power-up the back-line. Will Greenwood stood well above both Roberts and Davies when he interviewed them. You must find some big boys and develop them. You only have 2 years left.

Oh and lastly, under-estimate the power of the Welsh team at your peril. They were magnificent in Aus.

beshocked wrote: Mako had an incredible 2012-13.

You see it is this sort of hyperbole (which we are all guilty of) that puts people's backs up.

Mako's performances were good, but not incredible. That he went from never starting in the AP at the start of the season to playing for the Lions was an incredible story - but he is still a very inexperienced and naive prop. He was taken to Australia on the back of his ability ball in hand, though that is not an ability that was to the fore in the Summer (or to be honest in any match I have seen him in - and especially in matches at the highest club level as well as internationals). Mako reminds me of Logo Mulipola - a big man who is more hype than performance. I would not want to see him starting for England unless there is a massive improvement in his scrummaging - or if the new laws suit him. Happy enough to see him as a bench impact option.


PS pretty much everything I have said also applies to Tom Youngs. This is not about club bias, but me wanting England to be the best they can be. And for me Mako is some way short of the ability needed.

My first choice starting front row would be Corbs, Webber and Cole - big units who will not be dominated. If they were injured I would rather see Marler and Hartley (if back to form) starting instead.

funnyExiledScot wrote:Where does Tim Payne fit into all this? Awesome player.

Him and Phil Vickery are now retired - shock I know.

Surely Chuter is still around though LT??!

LondonTiger wrote:

beshocked wrote: Mako had an incredible 2012-13.

You see it is this sort of hyperbole (which we are all guilty of) that puts people's backs up.

Mako's performances were good, but not incredible. That he went from never starting in the AP at the start of the season to playing for the Lions was an incredible story - but he is still a very inexperienced and naive prop. He was taken to Australia on the back of his ability ball in hand, though that is not an ability that was to the fore in the Summer (or to be honest in any match I have seen him in - and especially in matches at the highest club level as well as internationals). Mako reminds me of Logo Mulipola - a big man who is more hype than performance. I would not want to see him starting for England unless there is a massive improvement in his scrummaging - or if the new laws suit him. Happy enough to see him as a bench impact option.


PS pretty much everything I have said also applies to Tom Youngs. This is not about club bias, but me wanting England to be the best they can be. And for me Mako is some way short of the ability needed.

My first choice starting front row would be Corbs, Webber and Cole - big units who will not be dominated. If they were injured I would rather see Marler and Hartley (if back to form) starting instead.

Thank you for the well reasoned post LT, it probably won't help but I feel pretty much the same about Marler and Mako. Marler is/was living off U20s form and Mako is trading off one subs performances where he scored a brace.

We'll said LT.

Beshocked I'll resist from commenting on any more Sarries players  

When did I say Mako's performances were incredible? I said his 2012-13 was incredible. From a players perspective but also it was a meteoric rise from not even the 1st team club rugby to lions.

Of course Mako is still inexperienced. What the hell do you expect? Props normally get better with age - doesn't mean he is as poor as made out. If he was as poor as you, yappysnap and geordiefalcon think then coaches wouldn't pick him ( perhaps its just bias?)

He wouldn't have been 1st choice LH for the league leaders if he was as poor as you make out surely?

You seem to be under the impression that Marler is a renowned scrummager with numerous caps to his name.

Personally I see Marler in the same boat as Vunipola just didn't have as strong a season.

You talk about big units then mention Marler......

I like mulipola too.

You are criticising Tom Youngs too? That's ridiculous. Like Mako he has had an immense season.

I am sorry what has Webber done to warrant being picked ahead of T.Youngs?

How is webber more proven?

Oh right you're also going to ignore Cole's poor form. If he scrums poorly it's ok.....he's awesome right?

You and I obviously have different interpretations of ability.

Yappysnap trading off a performance he scored a brace? That's rubbish. Have you actually watched mako this season? Made a cracking break vs your side and has done so much more.

I think you are also talking rubbish about your own player - Marler had a decent 2011-12. He isn't living off u20s.

Webber was in the EPS last year, but dropped out due to injury. Over a number of years he has steadily improved and personally I believe that he will be a better hooker than YoungsT. I love tom,, I love his story. He is a fantastic young man and has worked so hard to overcome all sorts of problems. This sudden rise to fame and status is truly incredible. However he is, sadly, rather short. Perhaps with the new scrummaging regulations that may be a help - but you have to think there will be little change.

Vunipola could be an excellent prop - right now he is not. (Marler could be an excellent prop, right now he is not.) Mako was not selected for Saracens, England or the Lions (where he was probably 4th choice behind the two injured and Corbs) because he can scrummage - but for what he can do in loose play. Of course at the highest levels he has to spend so much energy surviving in the scrum that we do not see that side of him (similar to Marler). He does concede penalties though (joke alert for any with a sense of humour byopass - along with demolishing the buffet another bad trait he is picking up from Matt Stevens).

As to being first choice for Saracens - so was Matt Stevens. The Sarries front row struggled in their high profile semi final defeats.


I know you like to defend your players, and believe we are all out to slate them unfairly. We are not. In fact this is not dissimilar to the discussions around Owen Farrel after his first international performances where he did well - very well for an inexperienced player, but that is the nub of it. We should be judging their performances against the best - not making allowances for being inexperienced.

So again, for me Mako is 3rd in my pecking order. Not because I do not rate him, not because he is a Saracen but because that is how I see the game. My opinion is rather worthless as since I stopped coaching (Sarries youth system by the way) I do not select teams, and in the end it is the coaches who make the decision. As Marler, with Corbs injured, was first choice through the 6Ns we can only assume that Lancaster saw it the same way.


All 3 will be in the EPS, and with David Wilson starting to look like the player we thought he coudl be we have options on the other side too. Much better than the days when we had Tim Payne at LH.

Chill out Beshocked.

When I said about those two trading off performaces I meant it. We all hear about Mako's brilliant loose work but for a lot of the time it's non existant, he tackles a heck of a lot but is hardly an extra back like some suggest. Likewise Marler was heralded as the next sunami to hit the Prem shores but has actually become a very technical player focussing more on his binding (very long) and close in ruck and maul work.

Both of them are talents but neither are ready to go up against other countries first choicers. And neither are as good as we've hyped them to be.

Wilson, Webber, Attwood, Fearns, Mercer, Ford... There's something special happening at Bath  

You might well be right about Webber but as it stands T.Youngs is ahead of him.

Having a lower centre of gravity if not necessarily a bad thing.

Just depends who he scrummages with. Vunipola is closer to his height.

Maybe it's because I am a fan of frontrowers who have better games around the park.

I like players like Schalk Brits, Mulipola,Jenkins etc.

Vunipola is a very hard worker - he makes a lot of tackles plus he does make turnovers. That gets brushed over though.

I don't have a sense of humour failure - I am just not a fan of appalling "jokes". Saying he demolishes the buffet table is a low blow just because of his physique.

I don't think Vunipola actually did too badly vs the two journeyman - Afoa and Hayman. Plus as you say he had the worst tighthead prop in existence in the frontrow with him - Stevens (according to most on these boards).

I would say that a lot of the Saracens players get far more criticism than they deserve. Far more criticism than most other players too. They just happen to be from the club I support.

Credit is not given when it's due. You criticise me for cherrypicking certain matches/stats but you do exactly the same thing except in reverse.

SL picked Marler at LH for the 6 nations. He also picked the much maligned Ashton and Goode in the back three. Doesn't mean their places are set in stone unless you're happy to use double standards. Happy to drop two players like stones when they show a bit of poor form but if a player like Marler....Nope he's still ahead of one of the best performers in the AP who also got picked for the Lions in your eyes.....

You haven't explained why you think Marler would be ahead.

It's because of his really cool haircut I think.

I rate Marler higher for now as I think he is technically better. Now I am not an expert, like Rowntree, so my opinion is merely that. I have coached some guys who went on to be very good players though (Dave Flatman and Tom Shanklin for example) so have a little knowledge.

Do not get me wrong, Mako is a tantalising prospect, but still very much a work in progress. Last comment from me on this, as frankly rather tired of the personal insults about what is a matter of opinion.


PS, no I would not drop Ashton or Goode from the EPS

yappysnap wrote:Chill out Beshocked.

When I said about those two trading off performaces I meant it. We all hear about Mako's brilliant loose work but for a lot of the time it's non existant, he tackles a heck of a lot but is hardly an extra back like some suggest. Likewise Marler was heralded as the next sunami to hit the Prem shores but has actually become a very technical player focussing more on his binding (very long) and close in ruck and maul work.

Both of them are talents but neither are ready to go up against other countries first choicers. And neither are as good as we've hyped them to be.

Trading off performances? Marler has been poor this season compared to 2011-12. In terms of form Mako is far ahead.

There you go again throwing around empty words. Perhaps watch Mako once in a while? Looking at the stats might help too - in the 2nd test Mako made a lot of tackles. I think 3rd or 4th after Parling and BOD, perhaps someone else too. 1 turnover too.

Is this non existent?  https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=QEK43Rjjd28

Against your beloved side. Marler's contribution was a YC in that game.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=reMotIM35lg


Performance vs Exeter.

PS, no I would not drop Ashton or Goode from the EPS.

I think Ashton is going to have a real fight on his hands next season to retain his place. I rate him highly as a finisher, but there is some real fire power coming through for England on the wings. Wade was stunning last season, and I thought Yarde showed up really well on the Argentina tour. Ashton's security will come down to how strongly Lancaster feels about the left wing/right wing distinction (both Wade and Yarde preferring the opposite wing), but Ashton is going to need to return to his free scoring ways next season for Sarries, otherwise I think he could quickly shift out of fashion (he already has in many people's eyes), particularly after some defensive lapses last season, and his tendency to drift in and out of games.

Still, top class finisher.

Goode I think is more secure. He offers a nice alternative to Brown and Foden, who are both more direct runners. I thought a season ago that Rob Miller at Sale was going to offer real competition, but he faded last season in a dire Sale team.

Londontiger fine. That's your opinion. We'll agree to disagree. That's all I wanted your reason - you think Marler is technically better at scrummaging.

Mako is not the only work in progress.

I think there will be a few changes to the EPS...but not a whole raft of them.

I will be interested to see the form of certain players after a full summer off..and full preseason...

Have we got a date yet for the EPS squad annoucement?

I saw an article earlier in the summer which said the announcement was expected 'late July or early August'.

On the Marler/Mako debate, I like Mako as an impact sub. That's not to say he's better or worse as a player, but his game at the moment seems better suited to the 50th-80th minute period whe its broken up a little. For that reason I'd have him in the 17 shirt with Corbs (clearly first choice) or Marler starting. Nice to have 3 good options though.

Thanks Jeff Winger

Bets on Callum Clark staying in?

yappysnap wrote:Bets on Callum Clark staying in?

I suspect the squad will look something like:

Props (5): Cole, Corbisiero, Marler, Vunipola, Wilson
Hookers (3): Hartley, Webber, Youngs
Second Row (4): Attwood, Launchbury, Lawes, Parling
Back Row (6): Croft, Morgan, Robshaw, Wood, Vunipola (+ 1 from Clark, Haskell & Kvesic)

Half-Backs (5): Care, Farrell, Youngs (and two from Burns, Dickson & flood)
Centres (4): Barritt, Tuilagi, Twelvetrees (and one other from Eastmond, Joseph or Tomkins)
Wingers (3): Ashton, Wade, Yarde
Full Backs (3) Brown, Foden, Goode

So in other words a 1 in 3 chance, but that ignores the incriminating evidence young Calum has on SL.

Clark does seem to be a default option in Lancaster's squads. With Croft, Wood and Robshaw all expected to be included, plus possibly Haskell, I personally see no room for Clark. He needs to re-establish himself for Saints and get back to playing regular rugby well.

Was expecting Clark to be named in the EPS as reserve fullback, since SL holds him in such high regard.
 
If he gets in over Kvesic, it's a travesty. I'd even have Haskell ahead of him.

If he's playing like a man possessed and showing the potential all the pros seem to see and we all seem to miss then i have no problem with him being in the squad.

If he is still not showing anything then its a joke...

But with the EPS being announced before the season, who knows...

Absolutey GF I agree. If someone is playing well, then by all means they should be given a shot in the squad. My issue is/was that Clark wasn't playing well. He wasn't showing much form, or any reason why he should have been included over younger players, but for some reason, he was retained. Pointless in my opinion, and a waste of a squad place.

Not sure about three fb's though, surely two is enough with Burns or someone covering.

Use that extra space for a lock or flanker (Hask to cover all 3 and Kvesic as an eye to the future).

Also hope Tomkins gets into the EPS, he has a lot of potential. Looking forward to seeing Manu play, it was disappointing to see so little of him for the Lions after his exciting start alongside BOD.

yappysnap wrote:Not sure about three fb's though, surely two is enough with Burns or someone covering.

Use that extra space for a lock or flanker (Hask to cover all 3 and Kvesic as an eye to the future).

Agreed, but do not believe SL has the cojones to leave one out

Do you think he'll keep Hartley in?
Thats going to be an interesting one.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you think he'll keep Hartley in?
Thats going to be an interesting one.

I do think he will.

Lancaster arrived on the scene demanding discipline, and immediately backing it up by dropping Danny Care from the squad for off-field activities. Just feel that this was setting an example and that he has since failed to follow his words through with actions. Now technically Hartley was on a last warning for on-field behaviour (always with Saints, not England) so in theory should be left out, if Lancaster is true to his word.

However I do not think he will be.

Do you think Hartley brings his club performances to the national side?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you think Hartley brings his club performances to the national side?

That for me is the biggest issue, at national level his performances just don't merit selection imo - not when Youngs is progressing well and Webber put in a standout shift in Argentina.

On the discipline front I do feel he's a victim of his own notoriety. The more heavy bans he gets the more of a reputation he gets - and the worse the reputation the more stuff that would be ignored in others gets noticed and results in a heavy ban. I partly feel sorry for him for getting harder treatment than anyone else, and partly feel that after the eye gouging incidents a few years back he should have realised he needed to be clean as a whistle for a few seasons and it's his fault that a) he gouged in the first place, and b) he hasn't been clean as a whistle.

On Clark - he shouldn't be anywhere near the squad until he delivers on the potential he apparently has. We have a surplus of very good back rows, why should we drop one for someone who only has the potential to be very good?

GeordieFalcon wrote:Do you think Hartley brings his club performances to the national side?

Probably not. though in truth the same can be said for most of the squad. Hartley had still done enough for Gatland et al to select him for the Lions tour, while Webber is promising, but hi sperformances against Argentina need to be weighed up against the quality of the opposition.

I hope Webber can really kick on, he has all the attributes we need.

I do think Hartley will be in the squad.BUT its a big season for him, and there are a few (very raw) young pretenders who will be looking to make impacts for their clubs this season...

If Hartley is not flying and Buchanan or Lindsay etc can really nail their starting spots for their clubs and show improvments in their game..ie Lindsay and his lineout throwing...then Hartley could be in trouble when the EPS is announced in January.

Of course it will also be interesting to see how the new laws affect the front rows....the powerhouse ball carriers might not be effective anymore...with a shift the those like Gray who techniques are top notch...

I too think Hartley will be retained, but like you say GF, it's a big big season for him.

Youngs and Webber all both above him in the pecking order for me personally. Should Hartley not push on this season and really bring club form to the international stage, I think he will quickly feel the squeeze from players like Buchanan, or even Lindsay.

I think Hartley will be retained and will do well. The suspension and losing his Lions place is hopefully the kick up the arse he needs. Losing a chance to be a Lions winning hooker has got to be an incredible bit of awareness, as well as embarrassing himself in front of the whole Rugby world. If this doesn't teach him, nothing else will. The med staff at Saints told me he went away for a while after the suspension was handed down and has been back at the club working hard and being very quiet. And has received some counseling from people around the sport.

His window is already beginning to close with most likely only a few more years of top class Rugby ahead of him. On form he can be a real force and ticks all the boxes, and then some, at hooker. Its really all up to him.

Make or break time for Hartley. Either he impresses and retains an England squad spot as they build to 2015 or he gets left out and sees out his remaining days as someone with regrets. We can all hope for the better outcome!

doctor_grey wrote:I think Hartley will be retained and will do well.  The suspension and losing his Lions place is hopefully the kick up the arse he needs.  Losing a chance to be a Lions winning hooker has got to be an incredible bit of awareness, as well as embarrassing himself in front of the whole Rugby world.  If this doesn't teach him, nothing else will.  The med staff at Saints told me he went away for a while after the suspension was handed down and has been back at the club working hard and being very quiet.  And has received some counseling from people around the sport.

His window is already beginning to close with most likely only a few more years of top class Rugby ahead of him.  On form he can be a real force and ticks all the boxes, and then some, at hooker.  Its really all up to him.  

Is he club captain this season?

He is quality for Saints but just struggles to bring it to England, he does offer a lot better scrummaging then Youngs and better line out stability.

HammerofThunor wrote:Is he club captain this season?

I haven't heard what will happen yet.  I heard Hartley and Mallinder had a long and serious discussion with Keith Barwell not long after the match.  It was generally assumed the subject was Hartley's tenure with Saints (and the forbearance the club has shown), and/or the captaincy.  But I have heard nothing so far.  There are a fair number of Saints supporters who would love to see Tom Wood.

Totally agree with GeordieFalcon on this, there are some very good hooking options emerging for England: Youngs, Webber, Buchannan and Lindsay to name four. Hartley needs a strong season to stay at the forefront of Lancaster's mind. England have made a big effort to improve discipline under Lancaster, and he won't stick with a potentially combustible individual like Hartley if he doesn't have to (Calum Clark being the exception, obviously).

Youngs would seem to be the obvious choice at this point in time. But he is still a work in progress. The next two years will come around quickly.

If Hartley couldn't stay at Saints would any other club have him?

Perhaps a fresh start at a team that isn't so niggly would do him good.

Sorry but as a Sale fan I wouldn't want Hartley. He has just gone backwards for the last 6 years as a player and has a poor reputation with referees. I think Webber if he stays fit is the real deal - big, strong, fast, skillful and did his prospects no harm with his performance in Argentina.

Youngs is an honest hard working player, but due to size looks a club player rather than an international player.

Sorry but going back to the original question will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win, I would guess not - a lot like the rest of us. Against a poor Australian team we should have won 3 nil. Don't go with a poor game plan? Don't be too negative?

Don't try to defend a narrow lead with 40 mins to play? Attack for the full 80?

nlpnlp wrote:Youngs is an honest hard working player, but due to size looks a club player rather than an international player.

I don't think so. Thought he was one of the better players in the first 2 Lions Tests. Youngs & Webber are certainly my first 2 choices. If Hartley gets his head screwed on properly he can get back into contention, but he's a loose cannon and a dodgy one at that.

Is it just me who doesn't believe in the hype surrounding Webber? Good prospect but he's still largely unproven. More so than Youngs and Hartley for example.

Tom Youngs seem to be very much underrated in comparison. He's had a decent start to his international career yet is already behind Webber in some people's opinion?

nlpnlp it's funny because another particular Tigers player was called too small.......

One area that Youngs needs to keep working on for England is his throwing, he did well at that for the Lions - that's nothing to do with his size though.

I suppose Webber has been there or there about for a while - and then when he got his chance against (admittedly a second class) Argentina and played very well.

Funny how it seems to be so hard to find someone of the right size who can play a bit and actually throw a ball in straight into the lineout.

For what its worth Tom Youngs has been just fantastic considering the amount of experience he actually has, and was (in general) exceptional on the Lions tour