Will Lancaster learn anything from the Lions win?

First topic message reminder :

Or will he blindly keep calm and carry on? Some tips from me are:-

#1. Power blended with pace wins rugby matches. Soften them up with the bludgeon and then apply the finish with pace.

This means:-
1. Tom Youngs is too under-powered to start a test match. Much better off the bench.
2. Corbs is the real deal at loose-head.
3. Cole is a little under-powered at scrum time but may get better. Hopefully.
4. Croft was found out by Gatland. He is lightweight and goes absent from the coal-face too often. Let him go like Gatland did.
5. Stop playing people out of position FFS. Put wingers on the wing, #8s at #8 and full-backs at full-back for goodness sake.
6. Let Chris Ashton go even though you think he's a nice boy. He has had his chance to show he can tackle and failed.
7. You must power-up the back-line. Will Greenwood stood well above both Roberts and Davies when he interviewed them. You must find some big boys and develop them. You only have 2 years left.

Oh and lastly, under-estimate the power of the Welsh team at your peril. They were magnificent in Aus.

Yeah i think TOm Youngs has added a lot to England with his dynamism and power. He's hit the breakdowns, carried, tackled...its been great.

Im not sure his size is an issue. Hes like a pocket batttleship. The only time hes really been under the cosh was v Wales...and i would suggest the WHOLE TEAM looked underpowered for that one...hardly Tom Youngs fault.

He's 1st choice...and the Lions tour would have been brilliant for him. Who knows with the new laws coming in...his slight shorter stature might actually become a strength.

Re Webber, i think he showed up very well last season for BAth and did himself no harm in Argentina. He will proably be on the bench in the AI's...and we can judge him on those performances likewise Davy Wilson who looked rejuvenated this season.

1 - Tom Youngs is currently our best option at hooker.
2 - Corbs is indeed very good, Mako a good impact sub, Marler still a work in progress
3 - Cole will be fine, he is a fantastic player, maybe a bit tired by the end of the season
4 - Croft is an excellent player who actually does plenty of "dirty work" if you bother to actually look at the stats. He is a unique player. Perhaps he is best used off the bench, perhaps not. Either way he should be in the squad.
5 - Playing people out of position is annoying I agree.
6 - Ashton needs some time back at Sarries to rediscover his form.
7 - I think Manu is pretty powerful myself. You could pair him up with Allen and I'd still say there is enough power there! England don't have to go down the power route. We could play a very quick and dynamic game (like the Aussies traditionally do). Many of our best players at the moment are lean and fit rather than bulky and powerful (as a generalisation!). Whilst power will always be needed in some amounts there is more than one way to skin a cat!

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah i think TOm Youngs has added a lot to England with his dynamism and power. He's hit the breakdowns, carried, tackled...its been great.

Im not sure his size is an issue. Hes like a pocket batttleship. The only time hes really been under the cosh was v Wales...and i would suggest the WHOLE TEAM looked underpowered for that one...hardly Tom Youngs fault.

He's 1st choice...and the Lions tour would have been brilliant for him. Who knows with the new laws coming in...his slight shorter stature might actually become a strength.

Re Webber, i think he showed up very well last season for BAth and did himself no harm in Argentina. He will proably be on the bench in the AI's...and we can judge him on those performances likewise Davy Wilson who looked rejuvenated this season.

He may be best, but for me that doesn't necessarily mean a player should start, nor that starting makes someone first choice.  Personally I think a lot of the best teams use the bench to great effect, and I would argue that powerful runners like T Youngs, Tuilagi etc would be more effective getting the last 30 against tired opposition than than they would be getting the first 50 against fresh opposition.  Can you imagine what it feels like for the opposition playing out of their skins for 50 minutes then watching as say Vunipola (x2), Youngs and Tuilagi jog onto the pitch!

I dont think at this stage in his career that Tuilagi is best used as an impact player. You want him involved as much as possible

If you don't start Youngs at hooker, who plays there? There's a lot of love for Webber, but I'm not so convinced. He played less than ten games for Bath last season and helped beat up a couple of very mediocre South American/ Argentinean sides. Is that enough to oust the Lions hooker (who already has possession of the England no.2 shirt)? It would be a brave call in my opinion.

In fact I would go as far as to say that on playing ability (and that alone mind you) I would have Dylan Hartley above Webber as well. Then you’re left with David Paice and Rob Buchanan. Paice isn’t really in the running as far as I am concerned but I feel that Buchanan has the potential to be a much better player, especially from a scrum/ carrying point of view.

I know I am being harsh, but I don’t really see what Webber brings that is better than the other guys. I’ve always seen him as a bit of a steady but unspectacular player (not to be sniffed at, at club level) and I thought this right back in his injury free days at Wasps in the 2009-10 season. Maybe somebody can make a case for him?

Big wrote:

GeordieFalcon wrote:Yeah i think TOm Youngs has added a lot to England with his dynamism and power. He's hit the breakdowns, carried, tackled...its been great.

Im not sure his size is an issue. Hes like a pocket batttleship. The only time hes really been under the cosh was v Wales...and i would suggest the WHOLE TEAM looked underpowered for that one...hardly Tom Youngs fault.

He's 1st choice...and the Lions tour would have been brilliant for him. Who knows with the new laws coming in...his slight shorter stature might actually become a strength.

Re Webber, i think he showed up very well last season for BAth and did himself no harm in Argentina. He will proably be on the bench in the AI's...and we can judge him on those performances likewise Davy Wilson who looked rejuvenated this season.

He may be best, but for me that doesn't necessarily mean a player should start, nor that starting makes someone first choice.  Personally I think a lot of the best teams use the bench to great effect, and I would argue that powerful runners like T Youngs, Tuilagi etc would be more effective getting the last 30 against tired opposition than than they would be getting the first 50 against fresh opposition.  Can you imagine what it feels like for the opposition playing out of their skins for 50 minutes then watching as say Vunipola (x2), Youngs and Tuilagi jog onto the pitch!

  ...???

Well said Cumbrian.

The likes of Webber,Paice,Buchanan had less gametime than Hartley and Youngs too.

Joe Gray played the most but isn't mentioned - 22 matches in the AP.

Hang on here. Don't tell me that we're starting to judge players on what they have actually done, rather than some wishy washy perception of what one person thinks they could do??!

This is a very slippery slope gentlemen.

 I like Tom Youngs, his play in the loose is excellent, he puts himself about and his lineout throwing is generally good.

The only problem for him is his size in the scrum, the link between the LH and him can be targetted because of the difference in heights . Australia did this (Mako/youngs at LH/hooker in the 2nd test) and you noticed the scrums in the 1st test weren't providing the go-forward we were planning on for the Lions. When Hibbard replaced Youngs in the 3rd test the scrum saw a vast improvement (admittedly with Corbs back at LH which no doubt also had an effect).

I just think that Youngs will weaken England in scrums against the top 7/8 teams in the world.

It all of course depends on balance, do you take Youngs and focus on attacking from the lineout/utilise his loose work, or someone like Hartley/Webber who's stronger in the scrum but not as good elsewhere? Of course, the set-piece is a 5-8 man strong area, not relying on an individual, but you're only as strong as your weakest link.

If you can develop someone like Webber then having Youngs as an impact, with someone like Mako coming off the bench, as someone said above, the impact they can bring is scary.

I see what you're saying, but it seems to me that we'd be sacrificing dynamism and carrying for a few pounds of extra bulk. Further, you have to question if the replacement would be an improvement on Youngs. Let’s not forget that Webber was part of a Wasps front row that took some pretty bad beatings over the years and is untested against top international opposition.

If there was somebody out there genuinely demanding Youngs’ place in the team and added that little bit extra power I would be all for having a look, I just don’t think there is and I don’t like change for the sake of it.

 Youngs was one of the best performers for the Lions; yes its about getting the balance right but he offers a lot and in between Corbs and Cole with a powerful boiler house he's your go to man.

I think Youngs is above and beyond anything else England have to offer currently and I'm just picking at what I would class as his weakest point, his height. Thats not something that can be altered, height differences between the props and hooker, and the 2 second rows can cause an area of potential weakness that opposition packs can exploit in the scrum.

Seperately, where do you guys see Croft fitting in?

imo it goes [6. Wood 7. Robshaw 8.Morgan] with the bench spot depending on the opposition and balance in the front 5.

 Englands back row will see significant changes over the next 18 months as they try to develop power alongside guile - Robshaws days IMO are numbered and with Morgan showing well it's a battle for the 6 and 7 with about 10 potential cadidates for those positions.

Dont forget the scrum isnt just about the front row...the second row is a big part of it. We played quite an athletic second row with Parling and Launchbury. If there are concerns about Youngs bulk...and dont forget he's still 16st...then adding Attwood or someone of his ilk should balance it out.

Back row...probably Englands biggest dilema...and if Will Fraser (i know he's injured at the moment), Kvesic and Wallace perform very well then that dilema goes up again.

Croft is the perenial arguement...some love him, some think he's a luxury. I find myself changing my mind constantly. His lineout is essential, his defence out wide and covering tackles...and speed to the break down is top class...but i just like what Tom Wood brings..a top all round game...and physicality close in that i want from my 6.
Lancs has some big decisions coming up soon...

Comfort wrote: I like Tom Youngs, his play in the loose is excellent, he puts himself about and his lineout throwing is generally good.

The only problem for him is his size in the scrum, the link between the LH and him can be targetted because of the difference in heights . Australia did this (Mako/youngs at LH/hooker in the 2nd test) and you noticed the scrums in the 1st test weren't providing the go-forward we were planning on for the Lions. When Hibbard replaced Youngs in the 3rd test the scrum saw a vast improvement (admittedly with Corbs back at LH which no doubt also had an effect).

I just think that Youngs will weaken England in scrums against the top 7/8 teams in the world.

It all of course depends on balance, do you take Youngs and focus on attacking from the lineout/utilise his loose work, or someone like Hartley/Webber who's stronger in the scrum but not as good elsewhere? Of course, the set-piece is a 5-8 man strong area, not relying on an individual, but you're only as strong as your weakest link.

If you can develop someone like Webber then having Youngs as an impact, with someone like Mako coming off the bench, as someone said above, the impact they can bring is scary.

The main reason for the weakened scrum was pretty much down to mako (not that I'm blaming him as he's 22, still shockd at that). Every time corbs played along side youngs the scrum was on top.

Really do feel like some people like to stick to the old clichés on here.

GeordieFalcon wrote:Dont forget the scrum isnt just about the front row...the second row is a big part of it. We played quite an athletic second row with Parling and Launchbury. If there are concerns about Youngs bulk...and dont forget he's still 16st...then adding Attwood or someone of his ilk should balance it out.

Back row...probably Englands biggest dilema...and if Will Fraser (i know he's injured at the moment), Kvesic and Wallace perform very well then that dilema goes up again.

Croft is the perenial arguement...some love him, some think he's a luxury. I find myself changing my mind constantly. His lineout is essential, his defence out wide and covering tackles...and speed to the break down is top class...but i just like what Tom Wood brings..a top all round game...and physicality close in that i want from my 6.
Lancs has some big decisions coming up soon...

All good points.

Also worth noting that the Lions cut loose in the final test when 4 of the front 5 were English.

I remain unconvinced by Tom Youngs at the highest level, but he is still a work in progress. I firmly believe that him and Mako are unable to play in the same team. Mako just is not good enough to hold his own in the scrum, and thus needs a bulkier hooker alongside him. Again Mako is a work in progress.

After being named in the EPS last July, Rob Webber was unlucky to be injured at the wrong time. Had he been fit, he would have started the AIs rather than Youngs, and who knows what may have happened then. Luck plays a big part in an international career.

nathan wrote:

Comfort wrote: I like Tom Youngs, his play in the loose is excellent, he puts himself about and his lineout throwing is generally good.

The only problem for him is his size in the scrum, the link between the LH and him can be targetted because of the difference in heights . Australia did this (Mako/youngs at LH/hooker in the 2nd test) and you noticed the scrums in the 1st test weren't providing the go-forward we were planning on for the Lions. When Hibbard replaced Youngs in the 3rd test the scrum saw a vast improvement (admittedly with Corbs back at LH which no doubt also had an effect).

I just think that Youngs will weaken England in scrums against the top 7/8 teams in the world.

It all of course depends on balance, do you take Youngs and focus on attacking from the lineout/utilise his loose work, or someone like Hartley/Webber who's stronger in the scrum but not as good elsewhere? Of course, the set-piece is a 5-8 man strong area, not relying on an individual, but you're only as strong as your weakest link.

If you can develop someone like Webber then having Youngs as an impact, with someone like Mako coming off the bench, as someone said above, the impact they can bring is scary.

The main reason for the weakened scrum was pretty much down to mako (not that I'm blaming him as he's 22, still shockd at that). Every time corbs played along side youngs the scrum was on top.

Really do feel like some people like to stick to the old clichés on here.

Sorry, but no, a scrum being in top can be witnessed in the 3rd test. There was no Youngs there, but a real scrummaging hooker in Hibbard inbetween Corbs/Cole - thats a gnarly front row who love to scrum. In the 1st and 2nd tests it was relatively even and no side was really dominating it.

As a welshman, I'd be happier seeing us scrummaging against an English front row containing Youngs than Hartley. But, like I've said, what he brings to the game in the lineout and around the park more than balance this out (and top what Hartleys ever done at test level already).

Mako and Billy V scare me a little, they're so big and powerful so young. Along with T Youngs they will all only get better as they get older.

I remain unconvinced by Tom Youngs at the highest level, but he is still a work in progress

Id say that pretty much sums England up as a whole at the minute. Half the squad and 1st team are "work in progress" including the crucial FH spot, NO.8, wings, centres, second rows etc...

In fact i would say only Corbs, Cole, Parling, Wood, Croft, Robshaw and Foden if hes picked have reached their potential, and performing well on the international stage and now simply working to improve their game....

Nathan you are blaming Mako. Why don't you just admit it? If in doubt blame someone other than a Leicester player......

Croft is a deity who can do no wrong,Cole is also a deity who can do no wrong.Ditto Manu, both Youngs etc in your eyes.

Londontiger I disagree entirely. I think you underrate Vunipola and overrate Webber to be honest. What exactly has Webber done at club level to get so much praise? He's played just 8 games. Scrum experts like Flatman,Moore,Wallace and Rowntree support Vunipola. That's good enough for me.

The likes of Robshaw and Barritt had to toil a long time in the AP (they started virtually every match) before England at long last called them up.


Players like Kvesic,Burns,Wade and Fraser have been on the England radar because they have played a lot of games this season.

Nothing helps a players' chances more than gametime.

Ford has more gametime than Webber but there isn't a huge clamour for him to be picked at fly half. He has moved to Bath because he felt he didn't get enough!

Personally I don't think Webber is so good that he can stroll into the England team with limited game time.

Webber has had a blinder in the 8 games he's played in, hence why he got called up for the Arg tour and hence why he was put in leadership positions. Must be doing something right in such a short time, no? Of course, he was lucky that Hartley and Youngs were unavailable and I guess he was 3rd choice behind them orginally, but plenty of others had almost a full season to steal that spot and didn't

Beshocked, I would suggest Mako was certainly part of the problem in the scrums in the 2nd test. But as GF has said rpeviously, the set-piece isn't just down to front row, let alone 1 player.

Scrummaging isn't the strongest part of his game, the coach stated he was best used for impact (and from what I saw, I'd agree with that!).

He's a young guy, and his technique will improve over the next few years and he'll learn some of those 'dark arts' I keep hearing about.

He wasn't taken as a scrummaging prop (a la Adam Jones) he was taken because of his ball-carrying, mobility and dynamism in contact (whether that be the tackle or breakdown).

Generally speaking, people on here need to start accepting players aren't amazing at everything and that people saying such doesn't mean they're slating them, i feel like I've accidentally strolled onto the loose women's forum accidentally sometimes.....

Webber is a player that has been on the England radar for a long time.  He has been in or close to a few squads over the years but has always managed to get injured at the wrong moment.  Shaun Edwards sang his praises when they were at Wasps together, and he always seems to be held in high regard by coaches, evidenced by his selection as midweek captain this summer.  This isn't a new kid on the block who we are all suddenly raving about after half a season of eye catching cameos.

I wholeheartedly agree that he needs more games at the top level before he can be considered international class and leapfrog a 3 test Lion and 50 cap former captain.

However, he has all the attributes that we have been screaming for.  He is very solid in the set piece and strong around the park both with and without the ball.  This is why so many are so keen to have him involved.  The games he has played over the last year have been highly impressive, suggesting that he may be able to fulfil this potential at the highest level.

Personally, I think all 3 senior hookers are fairly level at the moment.  I'd retain them all in the EPS and allow them to slug it out at club level.  Form guy in the first 2 months of the season gets the first chance to nail the 2 shirt down.  It's a great position to be in, particularly if you think back 12 months when it seemed Hartley was the only remotely realistic option.  Then also consider young players like Buchanan and Lindsay coming through, and we're looking very well stocked.

Bathite I suppose you hit the nail on the head. The lack of competition has helped. You are right. In the last 8 games, Webber's form has been good but is that really enough to make him first choice for England in some people's eyes? Praise is fine but the amount he's be getting?

In my eyes Webber is still 3rd choice as things stand but with Hartley's idiocy he has a golden opportunity to leapfrog him. My point is I don't see Webber as proven as some posters. He is not an experienced international yet is portrayed as one.

Gametime is what all players need.

Jeffwinger he might have all the attributes. I suppose it's the same as the hype surrounding Twelvetrees. Thanks for explaining the hype.

Twelvetrees has had the gametime this season which saw him get a call up. As you say - it's important to start the season strongly.

jeffwinger wrote:Webber is a player that has been on the England radar for a long time.  He has been in or close to a few squads over the years but has always managed to get injured at the wrong moment.  Shaun Edwards sang his praises when they were at Wasps together, and he always seems to be held in high regard by coaches, evidenced by his selection as midweek captain this summer.  This isn't a new kid on the block who we are all suddenly raving about after half a season of eye catching cameos.

Indeed.

Agreed beshocked. 3rd choice for now. I wouldn't mind if it stays that way, we really need him for as much of the season as possible, just hope he gets lucky and stays fit

The problem with Hartley is i dont believe he has ever truly brought his club form to the England side. Yes he is good at the set pieces...but im just not convinced anymore.

Youngs is No.1, then there is a bit of a fight going on after him.
Hartley - SO much to prove this season..
Webber - Can he take his good performances to the next level if he plays against the SH teams in November.
Buchanan - Needs to repalce Gray as 1st choice for Quins..another work in progress
Gray - Faces battle from Buchanan, but his better technical skills may come to the fore under the new laws?
Lindsay - A monster, and seriously rough diamond...will be watching him with interest this season.

BUT all of these near enough are works in progress...

But its not just at Hooker, so many other positions follow the same path
Mako, Marler, Mullan at LH
D.Wilson, Sinkler, Knight, Thomas, S.Wilson etc at TH
Farrell, Burns, Ford etc at 10
Centres, wings etc all yet to be set in stone.

Even second rows...Launchbury has been brilliant but still learning. Parling has been the consistant one in there..but he too is new to international rugby...Attwood seeminlgy just finding his form again, Slater, Kitchener, Matthews all at various stages of their development...

beshocked wrote:Nathan you are blaming Mako. Why don't you just admit it? If in doubt blame someone other than a Leicester player......

Croft is a deity who can do no wrong,Cole is also a deity who can do no wrong.Ditto Manu, both Youngs etc in your eyes.

You wanna vary your material a bit Beshocked? Before the tour it was all "Welsh players are deities, they must be hailed as a deity.." This along with your epically incorrect comments on George North. Do you still think Ashton is a better player by the way? Because that would certainly make you the most deluded fan in England.

I think regardless of what the EPS is when it is finally annouced, this is definitely an exciting season to be an England fan. So many new talents looking to burst onto the scene and leave their mark. I cannot wait for this upcoming season to unfold.

GeordieFalcon wrote:The problem with Hartley is i dont believe he has ever truly brought his club form to the England side. Yes he is good at the set pieces...but im just not convinced anymore.

That for me is the nub of it with Hartley.  I'd sooner pick a player like Webber who has the potential but hasn't had the opportunity, than one like Hartley who has the potential but has had plenty of opportunities and never really delivered.

100% with you there bluestonevedder. It should be a cracking season.

 
 
I'm with you on the Hartley point too Big. I'd much rather Webber got the run out now just to see what he can do on a consistent basis. We all know what Hartley can do when he plays well, but the problem is he doesn't always deliver it. Putting up with his temperment is acceptable when he's playing well, but when he is off form it is a real hinderance.

The Saint I am saying that I believe that nathan thinks Tigers players are deities.

Plenty of players are hailed like deities it seems. Yes there are quite a few from Wales but it's not exclusive.

George North? I have praised his efforts on the Lions tour.

Incorrect comments on North - what were they? I might have commented on his low try scoring record before the Lions tour which was correct but he had a very good tour.

When did I ever say Ashton was the better player? I said that Ashton was getting unwarranted criticism.


Geordiefalcon in your eyes how many caps do you need to a) not be a work in progress, b) be experienced internationally.

I would say Matt Mullan has an awful lot to do now to be considered at LH for England. Equally most of the THs you suggest.

Attwood is another of those players who I just don't understand the hype for.

Beshocked,

I dont think numbers essentially matter - players develope at different rates and ages. Palring may be 30 or more but he's a work in progress on an international scene as he's brand new to it.

Davy Wilson - Showed so much potential as a youngster then simply derailed. Suddenly now he's playing like the young lad we hoped...so in a sence he's a work in progress.
Different situations.

A settled player is someone like Corbs, Wood, Croft, Cole, Barritt...players who play to a high level on a consitant basis and have near enough developed to the potential...maybe just improving little by little.

And as i said, i dont believe we have many of the those in the squad, let alone the team.  

As for Matt Mullan, hes only 25...and moving to a good side thats improving and will always have a high media interest. His stock could rise significantly with a good start...

Geoff Parling with 17 England caps and 3 Lions caps is brand new to international rugby?

Dave Wilson has 28 caps. Work in progress? He's hardly a young man either.

Corbisiero is supposedly a settled player with 18 caps, Barritt settled with 16.....

I think all these guys like Croft,Cole and Barritt are still works in progress if we're going down that route.

Wasps are no longer the force of old. The weakness in the scrum though could help him shine I suppose.

Players dont develop at the same rate. Strettle for instance was a guy who looked made for internationals from day one. (but the least said about the last few years the better). Mako didnt, but he has got better and better, very quickly.

Fair enough i didnt realise Parling had 17 caps...i thought he had barely any.

Wilson...yeah hes a work in progress...he never lived up to his potential...but last season under Gary Golds guidance he looked like the player we wanted - thus hes a work in progress till he reaches that.

Barritt has such a limited game. He's reached his potential and will not achieve much more. His place in the side is seriously at risk.

Croft another settled player...wont improve much more now...BUT he divides so many peoples opinions.

Corbs...settled player he showed for the lions he's one of the best in the world...yet he can still improve i believe.

Players at different rates...its not just a case when someone hits 23 they're the finished product.

beshocked wrote:The Saint I am saying that I believe that nathan thinks Tigers players are deities.

Plenty of players are hailed like deities it seems. Yes there are quite a few from Wales but it's not exclusive.

George North? I have praised his efforts on the Lions tour.

Incorrect comments on North - what were they? I might have commented on his low try scoring record before the Lions tour which was correct but he had a very good tour.

When did I ever say Ashton was the better player? I said that Ashton was getting unwarranted criticism.

Beshocked maybe nobody hails players as deities. If they dare to suggest that said player is better than a Saracen, or that a Saracens player isn't the best in the world it doesn't mean they are attacking your players.

North hasn't got a low scoring try record. You compared the try ratio to Ashton's in a feeble attempt to big him up. And even if North didn't score a try on tour he still played well in every game, as he has done in past games for Wales where he hasn't been on the score sheet. If you don't now realise that then you're clueless.

North did score on Tour, didn't he?

 North has been on the wing for the Scarlets - He's likely to have a low scoring ratio

Fantastic - absolutely fantastic. An English thread about English players. The only slight mention of Welsh players was linked to comments about Lions forwards performance. And then The Saint steps in
   

beshocked wrote:The Saint I am saying that I believe that nathan thinks Tigers players are deities.

Plenty of players are hailed like deities it seems. Yes there are quite a few from Wales but it's not exclusive.

George North? I have praised his efforts on the Lions tour.

Incorrect comments on North - what were they? I might have commented on his low try scoring record before the Lions tour which was correct but he had a very good tour.

When did I ever say Ashton was the better player? I said that Ashton was getting unwarranted criticism.


Geordiefalcon in your eyes how many caps do you need to a) not be a work in progress, b) be experienced internationally.

I would say Matt Mullan has an awful lot to do now to be considered at LH for England. Equally most of the THs you suggest.

Attwood is another of those players who I just don't understand the hype for.

Oh for goodness sake, grow up beshocked. Just because I said mako struggled at scrum time you go on the attack. Are you somehow suggesting that mako didn't struggle? Because if so you need to open both eyes. he's 22 too, in prop years he's a wippa snapper, he'll only improve and I think he'll be playing for England for many years to come.

I'll call it how I see it, if its a tigers player i think played badly I'll say so. I'm starting to lose a bit of respect for your posts.

David Wilson may have 28 caps, but the two he gained in Argentina probably doubled his time on the field for England.

Webber, Wilson and Attwood are all players who showed a lot of promise at a young age, then injury or making a move derailed them for a while. That they now seem to be back on track is great news. They have all performed at a high level in the AP for at least two seasons - so in that regard have done more than TYoungs and Mako. Another player who has been derailed recwently is Chris Ashton - but the promise and performances he gacve earlier are such that should he find form he will also be exciting peoples interest.

It is not a case of overhyping based on performances against a weak Argentina - it is being able to remember form beyond the second half of last season.

After all that was why Corbs was called up to the lions, because the coaches knew he was class. He then showed just how good he actually is.

Maybe some of these other players can do the same?

nathan wrote:

beshocked wrote:

Guys, probably time to leave it. We all defend our own players - and sometimes we may go over the top. It applies to me, and to you two as well.

LondonTiger wrote:

Guys, probably time to leave it. We all defend our own players - and sometimes we may go over the top. It applies to me, and to you two as well.

Already have.

You want me to acknowledge when Saracens players haven't been good?

Well Stevens has obviously shown he's not good enough. Unfortunately Strettle hasn't delivered when given another opportunity. Ashton has a lot to prove next season. Wigglesworth will probably not make it back internationally as he's simply not good enough -Care and Youngs for example are better.

Farrell had shown poor form in the last few games last season but rallied well on the Lions tour.

Brad Barritt has great defensive qualities but must be more creative.

Goode has a lot to prove with his FB place under pressure from Tait for example.


Nathan he struggled for 20-30 minutes in the 2nd test. Rallied well in the 2nd half and in the 3rd test when he came on. Of course Corbisiero did better. Doesn't mean Vunipola deserves all the criticism. It seems like you are trying to make excuses for Youngs.

I don't think I have ever heard you criticise a Tigers player. Would be refreshing to see that.

Geordiefalcon see this is where we disagree.

I think there's plenty of room for improvement. You can't just write off players like that. How do you know they have reached their potential?

I actually think Brad Barritt could become more creative - as odd as it sounds. He was a playmaker for one of the South African clubs.

The Saint perhaps if you read my comments once in a while you might see I do acknowledge when players are better.

31 caps - 12 tries. 1 in 7 matches - 2012-13 for Wales. Not a great try scoring record in my opinion. Look I think North is a good player who had a good Lions tour. He put his try drought behind him.

Londontiger Webber,Wilson and Attwood have hardly been as visible as Vunipola and Youngs. Perhaps it's because they don't play for one of the top 4 sides and don't have access to HC rugby.

The coaches job would be easy if it was just a case of watching the last season of HEC rugby. It is much harder than that, and past performances earn players credit. As an example Attwood was tearing up trees for Glaws, went on the 2010 Australia tour and it really looked as if we may have found the next Martin Johnson. Wilson was all ready to replace Vickery (who has retired by the way) but the change of clubs and the first appearance of Roman Poite in the premiership (reffing Tigers v Wasps where Cole was first noticed by the wider audience) changed that.

Mako and TYoungs have had amazing seasons - coming from never starting in the AP to having Lions caps. They were helped by injuries and both have rather large technical flaws. Pretending they do not is delusional. Mako has more chance of fixing those flaws and being a Lion again in 2017. I do not believe Youngs will tour in 2017 - unless the new laws help the short hooker.

beshocked wrote:You want me to acknowledge when Saracens players haven't been good?

Well Stevens has obviously shown he's not good enough. Unfortunately Strettle hasn't delivered when given another opportunity. Ashton has a lot to prove next season. Wigglesworth will probably not make it back internationally as he's simply not good enough -Care and Youngs for example are better.

Farrell had shown poor form in the last few games last season but rallied well on the Lions tour.

Brad Barritt has great defensive qualities but must be more creative.

Goode has a lot to prove with his FB place under pressure from Tait for example.


Nathan he struggled for 20-30 minutes in the 2nd test. Rallied well in the 2nd half and in the 3rd test when he came on. Of course Corbisiero did better. Doesn't mean Vunipola deserves all the criticism. It seems like you are trying to make excuses for Youngs.

I don't think I have ever heard you criticise a Tigers player. Would be refreshing to see that.

Geordiefalcon see this is where we disagree.

I think there's plenty of room for improvement. You can't just write off players like that. How do you know they have reached their potential?

I actually think Brad Barritt could become more creative - as odd as it sounds. He was a playmaker for one of the South African clubs.

The Saint perhaps if you read my comments once in a while you might see I do acknowledge when players are better.

31 caps - 12 tries. 1 in 7 matches - 2012-13 for Wales. Not a great try scoring record in my opinion. Look I think North is a good player who had a good Lions tour. He put his try drought behind him.

Londontiger Webber,Wilson and Attwood have hardly been as visible as Vunipola and Youngs. Perhaps it's because they don't play for one of the top 4 sides and don't have access to HC rugby.

Then I suggest you read a little harder and not just the things that you want to in order to back your argument up. I've mentioned it many times when tigers players have a bad game or i think they need to work on a aspect of there game. I also agreed with croft being dropped for the last lions game..... not that i have to justify any of this to you.

Nathan I presume you highlighted the only bit you disagreed with?

Londontiger we'll have to agree to disagree. I personally think Webber and Attwood have an awful lot to prove. I don't see them as the "real deal". Certainly not yet anyway.

The spotlight will be on them more next season. Let's see if they can live up to the hype their followers have heaped on them.

beshocked wrote:Nathan I presume you highlighted the only bit you disagreed with?

Londontiger we'll have to agree to disagree.  I personally think Webber and Attwood have an awful lot to prove.  I don't see them as the "real deal". Certainly not yet anyway.

The spotlight will be on them more next season. Let's see if they can live up to the hype their followers have heaped on them.

Eh?

I think you can work out for yourself the reason why that bit was highlighted...